entremet
Member
Same here, but a medical catastrophe can knock me out. My insurance isn't that good.
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New Survey: 78% of US workers live paycheck to paycheck
- Thread starter El_Tiguere
- Start date
Same here, but a medical catastrophe can knock me out. My insurance isn't that good.
in case this isn't sarcastic: http://peoplespolicyproject.org/2017/08/24/what-does-the-stock-market-do-for-workers-wages-nothing/
LegendofJoe
Member
Yeah, but those 78 percent are your friends and neighbors. Massive financial instability is not good for anyone.
Clockwork
Member
Sorry but I am not anywhere near successful enough to brag. Sorry, try again.
The whole point was to point out how regular/average I am and despite that I am able to save, have a house, and should have a decent retirement.
It's anecdotal but when I see my friends and neighbors who in many cases make a fair amount more than me but still bitch and moan about their financial woes I have a hard time arriving to a conclusion other than that a large part of the problem is of their own doing. I have had conversations with people regarding this and most (not all) of the time it does end up being a matter of prioritization and fiscal responsibility
I've already admitted that there are other issues at play (wages not keeping up with cost of living, student loan debt, etc). Those with be a significant contributor to the situation especially if you have a low income. What about the other people?
And I really wish people would drop the whole "I live in XYZ city and it costs so much!". This is not the norm for the entirety of the US and even if employers accounted for cost living and inflation in an appropriate manner you folks would still be screwed.
1. if you're doing as well as you say then by definition you are not average. most workers are worse off than you.
2. i get that your perception of this issue is colored by personal anecdotes but you need to understand that the way your friends and family behave does not cleanly map out to tens of millions of people in this country.
manfestival
Member
I noticed that many companies that are local like to undercut the average pay for jobs in my field. Not many like to pony up to proper pay and have lots of excuses for why they supposedly can't
Hierophant
Banned
My point was that the alternative to not budgeting at all is not "go to work, go home and eat water and gruel, and then stare at the wall until bedtime" like some sort of ascetic torture regimen.
You can't deny the moralizing implication of "you mean you don't want poor people to have fun? You think they deserve a joyless existence???" When nobody was saying that.
People can save more without crashing the economy into Mad Max territory. And we all have to actually live our lives independent of our politics and how we believe the world should be. I am a proponent of UBI and UHC (whichever flavor of it ends up making the most sense for the US) and will happily vote for politicians who support them. But that's separate from my current lifestyle and what's required to maintain it.
Where do you live?
Pretty obvious that money in politics and the redistribution of wealth is primarily the cause of income and wealth inequality in America, despite neoliberals and conservatives trying to deflect and ignore as hard as they can about it.
What frustrates me about neoliberals is that they are half correct. They many times fight for the right social causes, but then defend "free market" corruption in both regards to domestic and foreign policy, and by definition continue the collapse of peoples lives, which is partially what leads to strike between not only classes, but races and everything in between.
What frustrates me about neoliberals is that they are half correct. They many times fight for the right social causes, but then defend "free market" corruption in both regards to domestic and foreign policy, and by definition continue the collapse of peoples lives, which is partially what leads to strike between not only classes, but races and everything in between.
I've been grateful to have the opportunity to avoid that, partly through a family support net and my own scrimping and saving.
My recent brush with unemployment has convinced me to up my emergency fund to $10,000 (currently $7500) though. I could last a little over 5 months on $10k just paying for the bare necessities (counting cable internet in there as the main tool needed to look for work), assuming i had no unemployment pay and nobody helping me out.
My recent brush with unemployment has convinced me to up my emergency fund to $10,000 (currently $7500) though. I could last a little over 5 months on $10k just paying for the bare necessities (counting cable internet in there as the main tool needed to look for work), assuming i had no unemployment pay and nobody helping me out.
AdventureRacing
Member
This is essentially the old bootstrap argument which has numerous flaws. You're making a similar mistake that many people make when talking about the obesity epidemic. Most people I know who are fat or obese have really bad eating habits and poor exercise habits. I on the other hand have been able to stay really fit despite having similar challenges to all of them. I don't then assume that everyone should be able to do that.
There is a reason why over the past few decades we've been getting increasingly fatter. When a problem is affecting as much as 70+% of the population you need to start questioning if it's a problem on a societal level rather than an individual one.
Sure if everyone on the planet suddenly developed extra will power and could change their diet overnight and start exercising there would be less overweight people. Problem is that not everyone has the same willpower and more importantly there are many larger forces at work that make it exceptionally difficult.
The same applies to saving. You're right that if everyone had exceptional will power and were incredibly frugal with their money than most people would be better off. If it were that easy do you think everyone wouldn't do that? There is a reason that such a huge percentage of people are struggling and it's not just because they're all just wasteful. There are many structural and social issues preventing that.
Firstly as above not everyone has the same level of willpower when it comes to being able to save. More importantly though we're facing many stressors that makes it difficult to do so. We already have enough things to worry about without having to plan our lives to a T just to get by. Not to mention that when you're stressed and struggling to get by you naturally want to spend your discretionary income on things that make your life somewhat better even if it's worse in the long run.
Then there are the systemic problems like the accumulation of wealth at the top end of town whilst everyone else stagnates or goes backwards.
As has been pointed out countless times in this thread you, like many others, are overlooking the huge structural issues that make it incredibly difficult to save enough to not live paycheck to paycheck. Instead our focus on the smaller issue which puts everything back on personal responsibility. This is what republicans and the wealthy have done so effectively. They've convinced the lower classes to point fingers and blame each other meanwhile the top 1 percent is hoarding all of the wealth.
yanipheonu
Member
But they said the wealth would trickle down!
Well, even if you don't get a physical paycheque, most people still get paid on a fortnightly basis.
... what? What the fuck?
screen actors guild
In Florida apartment rent is actually more than what a monthly mortgage is. I pay $300 less with a house compared to what I had to pay in an apartment. Landlords keep jacking prices up every year.
No, I get that part. But putting Reagan in the Labor Hall of Honor is corrupting any meaning that hall has. The man was as anti-labor as can be.
Well said, people shouldnt just pay their bills and buy food, everybody would be depressed, some jobs are very stressful and you need to get out and enjoy yourself sometimes.
Like you said people should get paid more, the wealthy are sitting on money that wont be spent for generations
Hierophant
Banned
I will never reconcile the idea behind someone having literal billions of dollars and people still being left out on the streets, starving and cold.
Explain to me how having this amount of wealth is not evil, especially with the state of the world.
Explain to me how having this amount of wealth is not evil, especially with the state of the world.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You wanna sent me a few grand and I'll stop.
El_Tiguere
Member
We have been conditioned to revere the wealthy, fierce competition (versus collaboration), and the church of the "free market" (handouts and subsidies for the wealthy, buyer fucking beware for everyone else) os being preached by both parties in this country.
The answer is not to destroy capitalism, but to guide it. If for the last 40 years the wealthy have gotten most of the government attention and favors, it's time to swing that back to workers and regular Americans.
excelsiorlef
Member
What a joke
mhayes86
Member
My friend and his wife were in the same situation about five years ago when they first bought a house. They were approved for $1.5M, and said to hell with that and went with a house a third of the amount. They save a hell of a lot as a result, and still have too much house
(and money)
That sort of happened with my parents way back when. When they first bought a house, they were fairly good, but between blowing credit on furniture and my dad having a medical emergency, they were having a hell of a time playing catch up financially. It also didn't help that they had six kids by 1996.
So is this how Japan got to where it is?
Yep, no one should have to work if they don't want to
UserNotFound
Member
Another thing to teach kids in HS and college is working towards a degree that will make them money. When I went to HS and college it was never impressed on me in any way that some degrees were wildly more marketable than others and that many required postgraduate degrees.
Soon. It just needs to get to a point where the majority of the poor feel like they have nothing left to lose.
Username1198
Member
I haven't saved any money for the past 5 years. Rents gone up, foods getting higher but my pay hasn't. At least weeds kinda the same price.
Did you live through 2008 or not?
We have very, very practical proof that aggregate demand can slip behind aggregate production capability.
Say's law was debunked, actually, by Keynes after the depression of '29.
More saving at the low wage part of the economy isn't going to solve jack or shit, except maybe not sending people into horrible living conditions when the unexpected hits.
Indeed, a large part of the macroeconomic issue is that since wealth is more aggregated at the top, and the top saves more than it spends, there's too much saving and too little spending.
That said, CCs and overdrafts are indeed major issues. But they do not hold a candle against the real issue, which is wage share is way too low against capital share.
People don't feel "poor." The problem is that they all think they're doing well, and that they are part of the middle class.
The middle class has become the working poor in their contentment.
Shake Appeal
Member
Not to mention the range between comfortable middle-class living and financial precarity shouldn't be "buys a new iPhone with an unlimited Verzion plan." There is no good reason for that to be a potentially life or death choice.
So many people are living in a mental prison that treats our vile state of affairs, the "free marketplace," as a normal sphere for people to navigate, as if the stakes aren't frequently bankruptcy, indigence, death, as if it couldn't be any other way.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The Neoliberal Dream
Frankenstrat
Member
If this shit doesn't improve by the time I'm middle aged I'm going to start seriously considering moving to either Canada or some other western nation that would have me as a citizen and have some kind of net for my wife and I, since we'd likely be a bit fucked staying here.
All I can do in the meantime is vote and help campaign, I suppose.
All I can do in the meantime is vote and help campaign, I suppose.
Or if you can afford it, get an undergraduate degree in something your passionate about and a master's in a marketable field.
this stat doesn't surprise me at all.
Unfortunately, I'm also one of those statistics. Rent, utilities, and debt, after that i barely have enough to eat until my next paycheck.
I do put a little into a 401k, but even if i kept it out it wouldnt do much of anything to change the status really.
Unfortunately, I'm also one of those statistics. Rent, utilities, and debt, after that i barely have enough to eat until my next paycheck.
I do put a little into a 401k, but even if i kept it out it wouldnt do much of anything to change the status really.
Because "trickle down economics" is what is pushed super hard in this country.
I really don't get how you look at the broader economic trends and not see where this is heading towards. The upward mobility through the social ladder is decreasing, wealth and power is increasing concentrated towards a smaller group of people, and the diminishing of middle class citizens.
I have known such polarizing inequality since I was a teenager before I took up my econs degree, that's like more than 10 years ago and I come from a fairly well to do family.
See, the ideal scenario for developed nation citizens is this. Since you're developed first, you are more likely to have the capital to take advantage of other developing nations than their own citizens. What do they have over you is being on the ground and the local network connection.
But if inflation, housing and other essentials far outpace your stagnant wages, you simply can't come up with the capital.
This is the only economic positive I had seen for developed nations to leverage on their advantage. Every thing else you're literally at the mercy of the top dogs in your nations whether or not they decide to tax sensibly or rise your wages appropriately to inflation at the very least.
I have known such polarizing inequality since I was a teenager before I took up my econs degree, that's like more than 10 years ago and I come from a fairly well to do family.
See, the ideal scenario for developed nation citizens is this. Since you're developed first, you are more likely to have the capital to take advantage of other developing nations than their own citizens. What do they have over you is being on the ground and the local network connection.
But if inflation, housing and other essentials far outpace your stagnant wages, you simply can't come up with the capital.
This is the only economic positive I had seen for developed nations to leverage on their advantage. Every thing else you're literally at the mercy of the top dogs in your nations whether or not they decide to tax sensibly or rise your wages appropriately to inflation at the very least.
SpartanN92
Banned
Because that's essentially slavery.
Super Mario
Banned
Lots of people want wages to start growing just because
Lots of people spend more as they make more or even if they don't make more
Lots of people want to buy products from Amazon because it's cheap and convenient
That last one makes it especially hard for the argument that "something needs to be done about wages". As we naturally gravitate towards the lowest possible prices, it's only going to get worse. Gone are the days when people support local businesses. Gone are the days when you could enter a company, and work your way up the ranks. Few people are going to be retiring from these Amazon warehouses popping up all over.
I have quite a few friends and family members that live paycheck to paycheck. They make many poor decisions, and I try very hard to help them make better ones because I care for them. I know everyone wants to attack me now because I'm basically "bootstrapping" them.
Lots of people spend more as they make more or even if they don't make more
Lots of people want to buy products from Amazon because it's cheap and convenient
That last one makes it especially hard for the argument that "something needs to be done about wages". As we naturally gravitate towards the lowest possible prices, it's only going to get worse. Gone are the days when people support local businesses. Gone are the days when you could enter a company, and work your way up the ranks. Few people are going to be retiring from these Amazon warehouses popping up all over.
I have quite a few friends and family members that live paycheck to paycheck. They make many poor decisions, and I try very hard to help them make better ones because I care for them. I know everyone wants to attack me now because I'm basically "bootstrapping" them.
Unknown One
Member
Those bastards would just flee.
Eat them, everywhere.
Vicetrailia
Member
You will bootstrap your people into nothing, meanwhile the macro issues (apart from disciplined saving) will make it more difficult as time carries on.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
I worked in portfolio risk management for a major credit card lender before I got this new job in March. Consumer lending is going to be a massive drag on the economy for years and years.