• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Nintendo Goes DMCA on Switch Emulation

darrylgorn

Member
This could be a groundbreaking development if they are not found to be overstepping.

Lockpick is a commonly used tool to dump keys from your own console that you own, but Nintendo sent a DMCA request to GitHub requesting the project be taken down.
The team had fully believed that dumping keys from your own console was completely legal prior to the takedown notice.
The team behind the Yuzu emulator has not responded to Nintendo's DMCA of Lockpick or the shutdown of Skyline Emulator, but the team behind the Ryujinx emulator announced on their Discord server that "Ryujinx is not shutting down."

https://www.xda-developers.com/skyline-emulator-ceases-development/
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
Obligatory mention that every software licence for things you buy never gives you ownership, but a licence right to utilise the software, something that can be revoked at any time.
Now the question is A. if such a broad strokes legal documents are legal, given that licences are mostly pages upon pages long, kinda like T&Cs, which were already proven in Europe and even US to contain very often illegal clause B. how copyright applies specifically to software, and even better - is there a difference between the same code put on a physical medium (cartridge) and purely digital one.

Whatever the case DMCA has to have been a master stroke for the industry, some serious money was spend on lobbying.
 

Lasha

Member
Obligatory mention that every software licence for things you buy never gives you ownership, but a licence right to utilise the software, something that can be revoked at any time.
Now the question is A. if such a broad strokes legal documents are legal, given that licences are mostly pages upon pages long, kinda like T&Cs, which were already proven in Europe and even US to contain very often illegal clause B. how copyright applies specifically to software, and even better - is there a difference between the same code put on a physical medium (cartridge) and purely digital one.

Whatever the case DMCA has to have been a master stroke for the industry, some serious money was spend on lobbying.

The question boils down to what category of technology controls protecting the keys are used for. Controls used to prevent unauthorized access, like Nintendo states switch keys are, can only be circumvented for preservation purposes and the law specifies strict conditions. Controls to stop unauthorized copies are less of an issue.
 

Agent_4Seven

Tears of Nintendo
Nintendo can just FUCK OFF with their abysmal and overpriced hardware and $70 prices for horribly compromized games with 20 FPS caps. It's their own effin' fault for not making modern home only and traditional console with 4K support. People should not pay $70 for horrible experience just cuz you refuse to give a better one, hense they must be free to do whatever they want with what they bought to get it without your effin' permission, you greedy fucks! So, FUCK OFF, eat shit and leave people and emulation scene alone! JFC, man...

denzel-washington-pissed.gif


P.S. Same goes for people making their own games and remakes based on Zelda, Metroid etc. and without asking people for money and not having any plans to commercialize their work for profit.
 
Last edited:

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
I don't get people who think Nintendo has no rights to its own software. It doesn't matter if you can't handle 20fps, 15, or 5. You're playing their software illegally and nothing you can say justifies that, at least acknowledge that and don't give yourself excuses.

I have no idea if they have a case or not.
 
Last edited:

ReBurn

Gold Member
I think Nintendo would lose the case(s) if this actually got in front of judge and jury, but they are going after individuals and small teams that can't afford to hire good lawyers.
I think Nintendo would probably win in court. I think the chances would be slim that a court would find that you own any of the actual software that powers your console, including keys stored on it, or that you have the right to use that software in a way that circumvents the EULA. If these folks had clean room reversed engineered the entire process, including creating and validating keys, I think Nintendo would lose. But since it relies on keys Nintendo created being used for something other than their intended purpose I think Nintendo has a case.
 

ParaSeoul

Member
This doesnt change nothing 😎

Nintendo should accept that they cant do nothing about emulation. Sony learned the lesson, nintendo doesnt want to 🤣
Connectix virtual game station may god have you in glory ✌️
Sony learned their lesson in the Damn 90s,Nintendo is really that far behind. I have a feeling they're gonna get away with it too like they always seem to do.
 

SeraphJan

Member
Unless Skyline Emulator uses proprietary source code, otherwise they don't need to be worried. The lock pick case might be interesting
Why's that?
Emulator is only illegal if the dev uses proprietary source code, Its perfectly legal for one program to simulate the feature of another hardware as long as the source code does not infringe that copy right.
 
Last edited:

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
Emulator is only illegal if the dev uses proprietary source code, Its perfectly legal for one program to simulate the feature of another hardware as long as the source code does not infringe that copy right.
The emulator is legal sure, but is emulation legal? I know the saying is that if you own the game you can emulate it. Because you don't own the game, you own the ability to play it.
 
Last edited:

SeraphJan

Member
The emulator is legal sure, but is emulation legal? I know the saying is that if you own the game you can emulate it.
Any proprietary software usage including Bios or Commercial games are only legal if the user had the license to it.

In reality, Its a gray area because it almost impossible to track down every users.
Emulation is legal yes but playing devils advect here. What if Nintendo can prove that emulation is mostly use for piracy against their games?
Then Nintendo would have to go after every user they had evidence with, which like I said above, is almost impossible. Console maker typically go after the emulator dev for that reason, but the case could hardly be established due to most emulator in modern days leaves almost no traces leading to piracy. Since the developing of emulator is legal, only the usage might not, they would have to go after the users.

A good analogy here would be: You can't establish a case against the Gun maker just because some random dude used their Gun to commit crime.

The best example of Nintendo successfully dealing with illegal emulation was probably its crackdown on some ROM sites, however its hardly enough
 
Last edited:

Agent_4Seven

Tears of Nintendo
You're playing their software illegally and nothing you can say justifies that
When it comes to Nintendo - better screen resolution, image quality, performance and just overal miles and miles better gameplay experience justifies everything. If you're forcing people to bu shit products, they will find a way to get much better gameplay experience.

Sony and MS selling their games for PC crowd and no one will even think about emulation of Series consoles or PS5 in the furture, cuz everything will be available on PC for you to play the best versions of their games, provided PC ports are of good quality.

Nintendo is giant, dumb and stuborn AF dinosaur that refuses to sell their games elsewhere and forcing people to buy their shit and outdated hardware, while also forcing 3d party devs to compromize their games and vision cuz outdated hardware can only let them do so much.

As long as Switch will be the only platform for their games, emulation will be the only and the best way to play their games, whether you bought them or not.
 
Last edited:

Pejo

Member
Yea gonna have to sit in the "fuck Nintendo" camp on this one. This utility is for dumping keys of something you legally own. The alternative (actually illegal method) is much easier, so all they're doing is funneling everybody into that option. Copyright laws are so shit, DMCA needs to die, but it never will due to the money behind it. Nintendo and Disney are my 2 least favorite companies when it comes to this shit.
 

SeraphJan

Member
Nintendo is giant, dumb and stuborn AF dinosaur that refuses to sell their games elsewhere
In an ironical sense, Nintendo do care about its fanbase, most Nintendo fan here absolutely reject the idea of Nintendo releasing ports, Nintendo is doing exactly what its fan wants in this regard.

Just look at how many lols and negative comment these op receive for even suggesting that idea, you get the point: Example #1 Example #2 Example #3

When it comes to the other two brand I rarely see this unified reaction, its one thing from a business stand point that Nintendo won't do ports, but its another when the fans doesn't want it to be accessible to more gamers.

I guess the idea of "Nintendo doesn't care about its fanbase" doesn't hold water, its the people that cherished this idea doesn't understand what most Nintendo's fanbase truly want.
 
Last edited:

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
When it comes to Nintendo - better screen resolution, image quality, performance and just overal miles and miles better gameplay experience justifies everything. If you're forcing people to bu shit products, they will find a way to get much better gameplay experience.

Sony and MS selling their games for PC crowd and no one will even think about emulation of Series consoles or PS5 in the furture, cuz everything will be available on PC for you to play the best versions of their games, provided PC ports are of good quality.

Nintendo is giant, dumb and stuborn AF dinosaur that refuses to sell their games elsewhere and forcing people to buy their shit and outdated hardware, while also forcing 3d party devs to compromize their games and vision cuz outdated hardware can only let them do so much.

As long as Switch will be the only platform for their games, emulation will be the only and the best way to play their games, whether you bought them or not.

You can justify it to yourself all you like, but piracy is illegal and what you're advocating here for is piracy and hate Nintendo. Hey, maybe you could get a job at Kotaku!
 

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
In an ironical sense, Nintendo do care about its fanbase, most Nintendo fan here absolutely reject the idea of Nintendo releasing ports, Nintendo is doing exactly what its fan wants in this regard.

Just look at how many lols and negative comment these op receive for even suggesting that idea, you get the point: Example #1 Example #2 Example #3

When it comes to the other two brand I rarely see this unified reaction, its one thing from a business stand point that Nintendo won't do ports, but its another when the fans doesn't want it to be accessible to more gamers.
I could care less if Nintendo ports their games, as long as I'm able to play with the joycons separated.
 

ShaiKhulud1989

Gold Member
The DMCAd software will be developed by the devs from un-DMCAd countries. There’s a clear request for Switch emulation and those shady letters won’t change that. Emulation is legal. Native Nintendo hardware was pathetic from the start and Switch clearly overstayed its welcome.

In the age when I can legally play Spider-man, MCC, Death Stranding or Forza on my Deck, Nintendo with their legal department that force you to own a flimsy plastic toy for EVERYTHING Nintendo could f right off.
 

Agent_4Seven

Tears of Nintendo
In an ironical sense, Nintendo do care about its fanbase, most Nintendo fan here absolutely reject the idea of Nintendo releasing ports, Nintendo is doing exactly what its fan wants in this regard.
Companies only care about themselves, money and not their fan base (if there is one), numerous fan projects were shut down cuz of Nintendo, their greed and their shit policies and cuz of this alone, they will never get any support from me in any way shape or form. I bought Switch twice and sold it twice, never again. Modern home only and traditional console with native 4K support and 0 motion gimmicks or fuck off.

Just look at how many lols and negative comment these op receive for even suggesting that idea, you get the point: Example #1 Example #2 Example #3
Why should I care about these "lols" and people who gave them? As far as I'm concerned, these OPs are 100% right and I've said + - the same thing here. Sony lost nothing by releasing their games on PC and now have more ways to sell their games and fund future projects, while previously they could only selfishely rely on their own console. The more people have access to games from said hardware, the better, and it only means more profits for those who make them.

Only stupid and stubborn cowards will hide under their outdated consoles, while being afraid that no one will buy said consoles cuz better experience will be on a much better platform. I own both PC and PS5 and don't care if Sony games are also available on PC, cuz it's a good thing and in no way it makes PS5 useless and absolete, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it and sold it already.

You can justify it to yourself all you like, but piracy is illegal and what you're advocating here for is piracy and hate Nintendo.
I'm not advocating for anything, I'm speaking for myself and myself only. It's just so happens that there's people like me who think the same way. I don't hate Nintendo, they can just fuck off.

Hey, maybe you could get a job at Kotaku!
They can do just fine without me, I'm good on my own.
 
Last edited:

UnNamed

Banned
Emulation is legal yes but playing devils advect here. What if Nintendo can prove that emulation is mostly use for piracy against their games?
Emulation is legal since emulation goal is to replicate an hardware, a mere proof of concept, which is not illegal. The only illegal part would be if you "steal" part of the original code, so emulators must use different approaches.

When you buy a game, you sign a contract were Nintendo let you play games on a specific hardware. Lockpick allows people to play games on different hardwares. So Nintendo must proves that their license to let play their games on a specific device is valid and customers have no right over it.

I imagine that this thing to "license to play movies/music/games" is something not new and already discussed in the '60 and' 70, so there already are cases on it.
 
Last edited:

Majukun

Member
Regardless of the legality of such threats, it was expected it would happen given how much some people were abusing emulators (like not owning the switch but buying the game and emulating it on a steam deck or pc, and claiming it's all good and legal).

It's a shame because given the shitty hardware, there's a legitimate need for switch emulators.
 

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
I'm not advocating for anything, I'm speaking for myself and myself only. It's just so happens that there's people like me who think the same way. I don't hate Nintendo, they can just fuck off.
This you? "As long as Switch will be the only platform for their games, emulation will be the only and the best way to play their games, whether you bought them or not."

They can do just fine without me, I'm good on my own.
Christopher Reeve Reaction GIF
 

winjer

Gold Member
Emulation is legal yes but playing devils advect here. What if Nintendo can prove that emulation is mostly use for piracy against their games?

Those are 2 different issues, although sometimes they overlap.
Even Nintendo uses emulation to run their older games on current hardware.

Cases like this already went to court a couple of times in the late 90's with Sony. And Sony lost. Some might remember Bleem!
 

Ozzie666

Member
Pretty aggressive for sure, it's nothing but bully and scare tactics. They want to see where they stand and protect themselves. They have the money to win a case involving personal owned keys etc. If they win, it's a precedent for many things. How can any person compete against them realistic, and many will fold and surrender.
 
Top Bottom