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[kame-sennin]

Maybe stop spreading false information since this was not confirmed to be done by police, it just as likely could be from home made weapons the protestors were making.

Fuck you, Sophia is my friend. She didn't have a fucking bomb. The cops' story makes no fucking sense.

 

[PenguinPoacher]

Fuck you, Sophia is my friend. She didn't have a fucking bomb. The cops' story makes no fucking sense.

She was the only protestor there?

 

[Muppet of a Man]

The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.

Translation: "I wish these injuns whose land my relatives stole would get on with their lives already. I mean, they can just drink bottled water from now on and have their meager semblance of reservation land inevitably become a superfund site because I need to get to the mall."

 

[timetokill]

Didn't the article that stated he was...proven to be false by Evilore himself?

Actions > Words.

Obama wants to have his cake and eat it too on this issue.

 

[Garlador]

This is 2016, a "civilized" era. We have space rockets and a million TV channels. We can clone animals, unlocked the human genome, and play video games with 6 million other people across the planet at once. We can stream Game of Thrones to our phones and study black holes billions of miles away... and yet my fellow Native Americans are still treated with such disdain and bitterness.

My grandmother grew up on a reservation precisely because nobody gives a damn about us or the ugly side of American history.

1830:

2016:

I've written and called my congressmen and senators. I've sent letters to the White House. I've donated.

Anyone reading, help us.

 

[kame-sennin]

She was the only protestor there?

The police said there was a propane tank explosion. They offered as evidence, a propane tank with a small hole in it.

Propane tanks are very difficult to explode, there are no burns on Sophia, and the wound suggests massive shrapnel which could not have been produced by the tiny hole in the propane tank.

An IED is entirely inconsistent with everything the water protectors have done so far. On the other hand, cooking a flashbang and tossing it into a group of activists sounds like exactly the kind of thing that police department would do.

But yes, let's believe the story of a police department that used water canons on people in freezing weather, denied that they did so, were confronted with photographs proving that they did so, proceeded to claim that they did use water canons - but only to put out fires, only for video to surface of water canons being aimed away from campfires and at protestors. I'm sure their story is legit.

 

[Media]

I also have friends and family at Standing Rock, and most of what the police and pipeline folk have been saying about the 'violence' from them has been bullshit. Hell, they caught a guy with a gun trying to start shit in the camp (ie trying to start a riot) and he turned out to work for the pipeline security.

Of course we can't know the full truth because mainstream media refuses to cover it, but the Amnesty International observers are disturbed. Is that enough for those defending the police?

 

[PenguinPoacher]

The police said there was a propane tank explosion. They offered as evidence, a propane tank with a small hole in it.

Propane tanks are very difficult to explode, there are no burns on Sophia, and the wound suggests massive shrapnel which could not have been produced by the tiny hole in the propane tank.

An IED is entirely inconsistent with everything the water protectors have done so far. On the other hand, cooking a flashbang and tossing it into a group of activists sounds like exactly the kind of thing that police department would do.

But yes, let's believe the story of a police department that used water canons on people in freezing weather, denied that they did so, were confronted with photographs proving that they did so, proceeded to claim that they did use water canons - but only to put out fires, only for video to surface of water canons being aimed away from campfires and at protestors. I'm sure their story is legit.

So the police have evidence of proprane tanks and Molotov cocktails and yet with all the video footage the protestors can't provide any evidence to a concussion grenade being used, even with all the live streaming. Hmmm kinda fishy there since they have videos of fire hoses and everything else being used against them but not that. Please though mix the words of what the police said, they stated they do not own a water cannon and instead fire hoses were used.

 

[Garlador]

So the police have evidence of proprane tanks and Molotov cocktails and yet with all the video footage the protestors can't provide any evidence to a concussion grenade being used, even with all the live streaming. Hmmm kinda fishy there since they have videos of fire hoses and everything else being used against them but not that. Please though mix the words of what the police said, they stated they do not own a water cannon and instead fire hoses were used.

*sigh*

... anyone else want to take this one? I'm too busy digesting my long-standing disgust.

 

[PenguinPoacher]

*sigh*

... anyone else want to take this one? I'm too busy digesting my long-standing disgust.

Awesome counter point

 

[Media]

So the police have evidence of proprane tanks and Molotov cocktails and yet with all the video footage the protestors can't provide any evidence to a concussion grenade being used, even with all the live streaming. Hmmm kinda fishy there since they have videos of fire hoses and everything else being used against them but not that. Please though mix the words of what the police said, they stated they do not own a water cannon and instead fire hoses were used.

To just go at one thing, the people who were running the 'fire hoses' apparently thought a ton of people where on fire, since, according to all the livestream you turn your nose up at, they are only shown spraying people with them.

Tell me then how Sophia's arm got blown off with out burns if they were 'propane tank explosions'.

 

[Brakke]

Pretty bad pun considering that the police did this (NSFL):

Dog image tag spoilers don't work on mobile. Put it behind a link.

 

[PenguinPoacher]

To just go at one thing, the people who were running the 'fire hoses' apparently thought a ton of people where on fire, since, according to all the livestream you turn your nose up at, they are only shown spraying people with them.

Tell me then how Sophia's arm got blown off with out burns if they were 'propane tank explosions'.

Really? You don't understand that an explosion of a propane tank can send metal flying in opposite directions of the flames?

 

[theignoramus]

My understanding is that this isn't true. The army corps considered the other site and dismissed it as unsafe because it required more crossings and simply wasn't a good idea from an engineering perspective.

Is that what theyre putting out there as a public statement?

Pipeline route plan first called for crossing north of Bismarck

An early proposal for the Dakota Access Pipeline called for the project to cross the Missouri River north of Bismarck, but one reason that route was rejected was its potential threat to Bismarck’s water supply, documents show.

The Bismarck route also would have crossed an area considered by federal pipeline regulators as a “high consequence area,” which is an area determined to have the most significant adverse consequences in the event of a pipeline spill.

The nasty implication seems pretty clear to me, whatever environmental hazard the pipeline presents,the Indian reserve & the area surrounding it isnt regarded as an area of "high consequence."

 

[btrboyev]

With how likely it is that Trump will dismantle nearly all of Obama's legacy, his inaction at Standing Rock is probably what I'll remember most about his presidency. That and, you know, drone murders.

Lots and lots of drone murders.

Obama cannot do do a damn thing about this. If he tried he would fail and if succesful, it would be rolled back in less than 60 days anyway.

 

[guek]

Obama cannot do do a damn thing about this. If he tried he would fail and if succesful, it would be rolled back in less than 60 days anyway.

You said he can't do anything but then posit an "if he tried."

Sounds like he could at least try but nope.

 

[ant_]

What the hell are you talking about.

There have been over 3,300 pipeline spills in the US since 2010.

Even if the pipeline was more environmentally safe than trucks or trains, which it demonstrably is NOT by orders of magnitude, there is no scenario where the modern use of fossil fuels is a "net gain for the environment".

Notice I said "modern pipelines." Nearly all of the pipelines referenced in your link are over 50 years old, built during World War 2. It even says so in the article.

Technology has changed and gotten better. The pipelines and maintenance of them is also more regulated and closely monitored than in the past.

I hate crude oil just as much as the next person. But I'd be lying to myself if I considered transfer of oil by train/truck a more viable solution.

 

[Garlador]

Awesome counter point

Fine.

Goddamn water canons were used.

The police have changed their story regarding the violence multiple times as evidence comes out refuting their initial claims, so I'm not sure why you give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Reports of the concussive grenades are inconclusive, but flash bang grenades and tear gas grenades have been confirmed in use.

So have attack dogs. And rubber bullets. And mace. And pepper spray. And... you know what? It only took me a few damn seconds to pull up videos of all these incidents. Pictures. Documentation.

Even if a concussive grenade wasn't used, there are PLENTY of other well-documented examples of violence and abuse towards the Native Americans up there.

Is THAT an acceptable "counter point", mate?

 

[PenguinPoacher]

Fine.

Goddamn water canons were used.

Reports of the concussive grenades are inconclusive, but flash bang grenades and tear gas grenades have been confirmed in use.

So have attack dogs. And rubber bullets. And mace. And pepper spray. And... you know what? It only took me a few damn seconds to pull up videos of all these incidents. Pictures. Documentation.


Even if a concussive grenade wasn't used, there are PLENTY of other well-documented examples of violence and abuse towards the Native Americans up there.

Is THAT an acceptable "counter point", mate?

You know all those things were used to stop protestors from destroying private property? They didn't just walk up to the camp and start throwing flash grenades. Here's an idea, listen when told to stop.

Or accept the consequences of destroying private property, trespassing, killing cattle, starting vehicles on fire.

 

[kame-sennin]

Dog image tag spoilers don't work on mobile. Put it behind a link.

Sorry, dude. I didn't know. I changed it.

The police have changed their story regarding the violence multiple times as evidence comes out refuting their initial claims, so I'm not sure why you give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

It's mind boggling. But no, the protectors story is "just as likely" as the police's apparently.

 

[Kaako]

This is beyond shameful.

 

[Garlador]

You know all those things were used to stop protestors from destroying private property? They didn't just walk up to the camp and start throwing flash grenades. Here's an idea, listen when told to stop.

Or accept the consequences of destroying private property, trespassing, killing cattle, starting vehicles on fire.

"Look at my Native American over there. Being good and everything."

And MLK never rocked the boat or engaged in civil disobedience.

I'm so glad you're concerned for that "private property" when the whole reason they're protesting is because it threatens to destroy their reservations only source of clean water.

But please, PRETTY PLEASE, condescend to me again and tell me to "listen when told to stop" as my family has done for generations upon generations, to great persecution, suffering, prejudice, violence, misery, and loss. We listened for years and got trampled over. We fought back but lacked the strength because nobody cared for us.

We are MOST LIKELY to be killed by the police.

So, please, get back right up on that high horse and tell me, my father, my uncle, and my grandmother to - gasp! - just listen and do as we're told. Again.

Unreal...

 

[kame-sennin]

You know all those things were used to stop protestors from destroying private property? They didn't just walk up to the camp and start throwing flash grenades. Here's an idea, listen when told to stop.

Or accept the consequences of destroying private property, trespassing, killing cattle, starting vehicles on fire.

Being soaked in water at below freezing temperatures can cause hypothermia or death.

Is hypothermia or death an appropriate punishment for:

destroying private property, trespassing, killing cattle, starting vehicles on fire.

?

But please, PRETTY PLEASE, condescend to me again and tell me to "listen when told to stop" as my family has done for generations upon generations, to great persecution, suffering, prejudice, violence, misery, and loss. We listened for years and got trampled over. We fought back but lacked the strength because nobody cared for us.

Yeah, listening to white settlers has never been a winning strategy for native peoples.

Even the idea that an indigenous person should have to submit to the authority of a united states police officer is offensive to me.

 

[digitaldevmike]

I know I wouldn't be quick to trust the army corps with my water...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/24/us/decade-after-katrina-pointing-finger-more-firmly-at-army-corps.html

 

[PenguinPoacher]

"Look at my Native American over there. Being good and everything."

And MLK never rocked the boat or engaged in civil disobedience.


I'm so glad you're concerned for that "private property" when the whole reason they're protesting is because it threatens to destroy their reservations only source of clean water.

But please, PRETTY PLEASE, condescend to me again and tell me to "listen when told to stop" as my family has done for generations upon generations, to great persecution, suffering, prejudice, violence, misery, and loss. We listened for years and got trampled over. We fought back but lacked the strength because nobody cared for us.

We are MOST LIKELY to be killed by the police.


So, please, get back right up on that high horse and tell me, my father, my uncle, and my grandmother to - gasp! - just listen and do as we're told. Again.

Unreal...

How can you even compare a pipeline protest to the civil rights movement? Unreal. This has nothing to do with being Native American, there are many different ethnicities at the protest camp and they are all being treated the same when they break the law.

 

[guek]

Notice I said "modern pipelines." Nearly all of the pipelines referenced in your link are over 50 years old, built during World War 2. It even says so in the article.

Technology has changed and gotten better. The pipelines and maintenance of them is also more regulated and closely monitored than in the past.

I hate crude oil just as much as the next person. But I'd be lying to myself if I considered transfer of oil by train/truck a more viable solution.

Those pipelines were new at some point too. The reality is all pipelines in the US are underserviced with a poor record of maintenance, modern regulation and monitoring has not fixed that like you're claiming. I don't believe adding to the pipeline infrastructure is the ecologically responsible option compared to trains/trucks which are easier to phase out, require far less maintenance, and tend to subject the environment to substantially less spilled oil after accidents despite the higher rate of incidence. Compound that with the nation's crippling fresh water shortage, endangering any major source of fresh water is not the responsible course of action.

 

[PenguinPoacher]

Being soaked in water at below freezing temperatures can cause hypothermia or death.

Is hypothermia or death an appropriate punishment for:



?

https://www.google.com/amp/wqad.com...escalate-with-fire-arrests/amp/?client=safari

http://standingrockfactchecker.org/protest-area-cattle-killed-weekend-according-authorities/

The authorities did not just roll up to the camp and start spraying water, this was a reaction from the increasing aggression from the protestors. Maybe if it was an actual peaceful protest like many claim none of those means would have been used.

 

[Media]

BTW, everyone I've talked to (which is people who are actually there) say everyone at the camp is confused as fuck as to where this cattle killing accusations are coming from, and considering they found an armed guy in the camp trying to escalate the situation that worked for the pipeline, they aren't going to surprised if the cattle thing is another 'turn the local whites against them' Hit job.

 

[Tain]

"will somebody please think of the private property"

 

[PenguinPoacher]

"will somebody please think of the private property"

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

 

[Garlador]

How can you even compare a pipeline protest to the civil rights movement? Unreal. This has nothing to do with being Native American, there are many different ethnicities at the protest camp and they are all being treated the same when they break the law.

How can I?

Quite easily.

Or do you think that being black is the only minority to experience widespread discrimination and persecution? Or one that isn't persecuted to this very day? I'm willing to concede you are truly that ignorant, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. It might be actual news for you to hear that Native Americans are one of the most mistreated group of people in America and they continue to be mistreated day in and out.

Fighting for the right to have clean water for your reservation (that you're only on because the government forcefully removed your people and reallocated them to the crappiest parts of the nation to settle instead) is the very definition of a civil right - the right to life, to land - as outlined by the Constitution. It's a right being actively threatened.

This is the largest gathering of Native Americans in over 100 years. This is significant, even as you downplay it and reduce us to a mass of "violent protesters breaking the law". 300 separate tribes are there in unison for this protest, and we've inspired others to join us who aren't even Native American. Or do you believe that only black people were arrested during the Civil Rights Movement? (MANY white allies were locked up and caught up in the protests and riots too).

This has EVERYTHING to do with being Native American. It's our people. Our land being threatened. Our way of life being destroyed. Our heritage being trampled over.

... And I bring up the other examples because this is only the most recent issue to get some attention, but it's been this way for as long back as my grandmother's grandmother can remember.

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

Said while 2016 brought us the Flint water crisis...

 

[Media]

How can you even compare a pipeline protest to the civil rights movement? Unreal. This has nothing to do with being Native American, there are many different ethnicities at the protest camp and they are all being treated the same when they break the law.

This I have to respond to. My tribe is there. It's been going on for months BEFORE anyone heard about it outside of Native circles. The Souix have been there almost all damned year. But no, it's not a Native issue, what with 300+ different tribes there and all. Suddenly it starts making a little bit of news, and people claim to be experts because they read some bullshit propaganda the state is shoveling.

I'm Navajo, I've been trying to get eyes on this for months, I have family and friends there yes it's a fucking Native Issue.

 

[PenguinPoacher]

This I have to respond to. My tribe is there. It's been going on for months BEFORE anyone heard about it outside of Native circles. The Souix have been there almost all damned year. But no, it's not a Native issue, what with 300+ different tribes there and all. Suddenly it starts making a little bit of news, and people claim to be experts because they read some bullshit propaganda the state is shoveling.

I'm Navajo, I've been trying to get eyes on this for months, I have family and friends there yes it's a fucking Native Issue.

Your an expert on pipelines are you? Or are you just reading into propaganda from the protestors side.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

That governor must have gotten pressured by money, pressured or pleasured by a bag full of it. It must be nice to do a favor like this for a incredibly wealthy person/corporation. Jackpot. Now lets hope this news spread and support is offered to counter what this governor hopes to do. Hopefully these people fighting the pipeline are written in history as victors.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

Over 3,300 pipeline spills since 2010.

 

[Media]

Your an expert on pipelines are you? Or are you just reading into propaganda from the protestors side.

No, but you seem to be claiming to be an expert on Native American and civil rights issues to the few Native Americans that post on this board? I don't give a fuck about the pipeline. I'm concerned about my people. Go be concerned about pipelines and corporate interests.

Interesting how you ignored my entire post for some reason.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

Your an expert on pipelines are you? Or are you just reading into propaganda from the protestors side.

Hahahahaha okay bud.

 

[Brakke]

I dunno dude if you wanna stand for law and order and orderly legal processes I'm gunna roll eyes but at least understand where you're coming from. This #cowslivesmatter thing is pretty ridiculous though. Putting property rights over human rights is quite a thing.

 

[theignoramus]

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

Dakota Access were thinking about water contamination, that was one of the documented reasons for not building the pipeline in the "high consequence area" near Bismarck's municipal water supply.
In their judgement, the risk of contamination to Native Americans & Indian territory was a preferable alternative.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Over 3,300 pipeline spills since 2010.

And "water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline" is too much of a risk. It's like saying, "sure let the toddlers play outside in a snake infested jungle overnight. They will probably never be bitten by a shark." Some things you don't want to take that "probably" risk with, especially when so many other things can go wrong. Contaminated water would put so many people's health and survival at risk.

Just take the $0.02 (exaggerating) per whatever hit, stop trying to save money at all costs and before renewable energy push out oil.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Yeah, listening to white settlers has never been a winning strategy for native peoples.

Even the idea that an indigenous person should have to submit to the authority of a united states police officer is offensive to me.

From a macro view, the problem is the natives lost. They lost hard, and they lost over hundreds of years. And basically they're trying to maintain their culture to the exclusion of everything else, because your choices are either get the hell of the reservation or stay there and stay poor, destitute, and marginalized. They say people don't care about them, and in the wide and general sense they're right—they're off on their own patches of land, they have no investment in local politics or representation therein. They are U.S. citizens without the same fundamental civil rights.

Progressive action for natives has generally been well-intentioned bad policy after bad policy, and that extends to the reservation system. I don't even know what the "best case" scenario for these people would be. As this pipeline example shows, total disengagement and being left completely alone by the America around them wouldn't help anything.

Said while 2016 brought us the Flint water crisis...

I'm going to point out the Flint water crisis has absolutely no relevance to this.

 

[Blader]

The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.

Your ability to enter the mall is absolutely irrelevant to anything, ever. Nobody cares.

Net gain for our environment? Are you out of your mind?

Do you have any idea what oil and the use of fossil fuel does to our planet at all? The creation of that pipeline may promote temporary work for that area but it will contribute massively towards corporate gain in the oil industry while giving a big middle finger to our already quickly depleting planet.

The people of Bismark didn't want that pipeline near their homes specifically because of contamination on top of this. So they cast the pipeline through a Native American Reservation because fuck those people, right?

Here, you can read a list of pipeline accidents occurring over the past 15 years. Nothing revolving around the oil industry is better for our planet, fossil fuels have done an irreparable amount of damage that cannot be undone and the fact that you can even stand by this because some "Army Corp of Engineers put a lot of time and effort into choosing this route" is really astonishing.

ant is the same guy who was okay with NASA's earth science division being gutted if it meant those resources were being allocated to the EPA, then admitted he has no idea what the EPA does or who Trump is putting in charge of it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

Please, if you plan to continue posting, make sure that your next post includes a source of information that shows that modern pipelines do not pose a contamination risk.

 

[Tain]

"Will somebody please think of the water that will probably never be contaminated from a modern pipeline with all the safety regulations/precautions"

this pipeline was already rejected for white people over safety concerns but good one dude

 

[Leatherface]

I see all these arguments going back and forth. Everyone is trying to make their points and there are some decent arguments, but when it all comes down to it, aren't we trying to get away from fossil fuels? Who does this pipeline benefit? Is it worth the fight? Is it worth the cost? If so many are compelled to stand together to stop this from moving forward isn't that reason enough to re-evaluate? Personally I feel the environmental cost of this is far too great a risk.

Maybe I need some more information? Can someone please explain to me what is so beneficial about having this pipeline? I get that it will create some jobs and there are those who stand to make a fortune somewhere, but does this actually do anything beneficial for our country as a whole? Is this going to end poverty? Is this going to make healthcare magically affordable? What does this do for us?

 

[PenguinPoacher]

this pipeline was already rejected for white people over safety concerns but good one dude

Only white people live in Bismarck huh? It was rejected because it would've required 10 more miles of pipe under water and wetlands than the current location, thus deemed more dangerous. Im pretty sure you just read headlines though.

And no method of transporting oil is completely safe from spills, but pipeline is far and away less dangerous than using trucks or rail cars to move all that oil.

 

[guek]

And no method of transporting oil is completely safe from spills, but pipeline is far and away less dangerous than using trucks or rail cars to move all that oil.

Either produce a source or stop spewing this nonsense. I've already posted data showing how pipelines are much more ecologically dangerous than trucks and trains.

You also tried to argue the pipeline has no risk of spilling but now admit the prior plans posed too much of an environmental risk. Pick one.

 

[Lambtron]

Only white people live in Bismarck huh? It was rejected because it would've required 10 more miles of pipe under water and wetlands than the current location, thus deemed more dangerous. Im pretty sure you just read headlines though.

And no method of transporting oil is completely safe from spills, but pipeline is far and away less dangerous than using trucks or rail cars to move all that oil.

I didn't know Rob Port posted here.

 

[commedieu]

And everyone here circle Jerks obama.
Fuck him.

 

[Netherscourge]

They're concerned about the weather.... while spraying people with fire hoses in the freezing cold.

OK