There's no way a people's revolt can happen in NK.
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North Korea arrests US student.
- Thread starter brian577
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Ugh...
"Everything is so calm an nice and people are happy!"
Of course, they'll get fucking executed if they act differently.
Fixed that for you. 😧 ugh. It is just a sick situation....
Kenshin001
Member
I don't think it will make much difference. If anything tourism will be seen as legitimising the regime. The best way to change North Korea would be to kill Kim Jong Un.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Who ever implied a people's revolt? Not the point.
Positive interaction with foreign people could lead to more future interactions and who knows what down the line, that's all.
If some general in a position of power some day has positive experience with the tourism program, and positive experience with tourists, its all the more likely that they will allow more open programs in the future.
Interaction with the outside world, however slight, erodes the lie that the outside world is something they need to protect themselves from.
There is an element of legitimizing the regime, yes.
Killing Kim Jong Un....?
uh, okay? A Kim just died a couple years ago and that did diddly squat, so what are you basing that on?
Even if all the Kims die, the generals remain in control. That is very obvious.
The eccentricity of the state doesn't even come from the personality of the leader at all. Whoever is the leader is groomed by the state....
@bolded quite the fairy tale. I hope that general fairs better than the last few officials who showed dissent. I'm also fairly sure that tourism program (that isn't even subtle about being a carnival ride which funds debauchery on an international scale) is even more of a joke to those aware in NK than it is to those aware outside and looking in.
Best way to erode anything in NK would be with military intervention but that's a discussion for another thread.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Fairy tale? I mean, that's how the world works.
Slow. Gradual. Change.
Remember when China was the big bad enemy? Cuba? Iran? Vietnam? How did they get turned into varying degrees of America's pseudo-buddies? Was it grand intervention?
Nope. It was tiny interactions that piled up over time.
Of course the tourism program could be some mere propaganda apparatus that could never have any effect on real world change... but that's just as much of a dogmatic fairy tale.
It's certainly possible that someday someone will get in charge, look at the money coming in from the tourism program, allow 5% more tourists in order to get 5% more money... And 30 years later there's McDonald's in Pyongyang.
That's most likely how this will actually play out, rather than people's fantasies about Kim assassinations or people's revolutions... which are the real fairy tales.
There are so many casual dismissals, leaps in all directions, and bad comparisons in this post dude
lets skip the part where we go back and forth and you gradually step off of those one by one while I waste time to type out shit that you already know but would rather not deal with as it screws up your point lol
okay, now - how many james bond villain "its a small world" rides have actually existed? i'm sure the experience is quite unlike anything else in history. does that somehow change what this is?
edit: still laughing at slow. gradual. change. lol. geez dude lmao
ClosingADoor
Member
Any change in North Korea will be slow if the current regime stays in charge. Or there could be a revolution - not likely, would need a couple of generals to do it and somehow lead their soldiers against Kim - or actual war.
Too bad it will probably literally take at least another 100 years for stuff to get a bit better on the current path. I doubt tourism has any influence on it one way or the other.
It won't be anything longer than a decade tops. The Pacific is changing too much, too fast for a nation to have South Korea at gunpoint and aiming to put Japan under the same crosshair. Nuclear weapons included? No.
But that's for a different thread.
Anyways, kid is an idiot.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
So reading the other thread that student likely went on a solo trip and entertained some local people with his iPad?
I have very little sympathy because of this:
Your idiotic curiosity and ability to tell interesting stories to your m8s back home is not worth propping up with your spending money a regime that rapes, murders, tortures and enslaves its own people.
Your idiotic curiosity and ability to tell interesting stories to your m8s back home is not worth propping up with your spending money a regime that rapes, murders, tortures and enslaves its own people.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
Oh hey, a bunch of us are going to jump off a bridge later, wanna come along?
Does this guy not understand that pretty much everything he gets to see is pre-prepared and staged? Of course everything looks nice and beautiful... You're not allowed to see the stuff that isn't.
As a side note, I wonder what'd happen to me as a US/Japanese dual citizen... I'm like everything they hate most rolled into one.
excelsiorlef
Member
Omg that was hillarious
Admiral Woofington
Member
How is this shit even tolerated by Western countries? I understand you don't wanna make an international crisis over it but if they're kidnapping citizens shit has to be done
dreamcastmaster
Banned
This is the same shit you used to hear about China. Yet, there have been no problems for the Gaffers that are here. (China)
Dude, China is nowhere near the level of N. Korea... At least not lately. Maybe in the 60s or 70s or something?
It is doubtful he did anything. He is a hostage. This is the exact same behavior they have exhibited previously. A few days before a weapons test, they take hostages as bargaining chips.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Sup.
Two years and many other countries later, still would go again.
You get to see the staged stuff, and some really poor stuff. It can't be hidden, the country is insanely poor. You get to see the difference of the ruling party's people and the rest of the country. You get to see communism in action (or 'juche' as they'd like to label it).
Statistically speaking, North Korea an extremely safe tourist destination. Petty crime against tourists doesn't exist (take a guess why) and car crashes are virtually impossible, as there are almost no cars. Of course, if you are the one tourist in five thousand who gets fucked, for whatever political bargaining chip reason, then you are indeed really very, very fucked.
The moral dilemma, as many rightly point out, is contributing money to the corrupt regime vs. giving local people some external interaction and keeping them up to date with Apple Watches and GoPros and what not. My view was that the few thousand tourists that visit annually bring a pitiful two-three million dollars a year to the country, which doesn't even buy Kim-Jong Un a full season of Rodman. So the govenment gets an absolute majority of its money elsewhere, through scamming aid for example, and tourism is mostly "just" morally suspect, rather than an actual contributor to the wealth of the regime in any meaningful way.
Two years and many other countries later, still would go again.
You get to see the staged stuff, and some really poor stuff. It can't be hidden, the country is insanely poor. You get to see the difference of the ruling party's people and the rest of the country. You get to see communism in action (or 'juche' as they'd like to label it).
Statistically speaking, North Korea an extremely safe tourist destination. Petty crime against tourists doesn't exist (take a guess why) and car crashes are virtually impossible, as there are almost no cars. Of course, if you are the one tourist in five thousand who gets fucked, for whatever political bargaining chip reason, then you are indeed really very, very fucked.
The moral dilemma, as many rightly point out, is contributing money to the corrupt regime vs. giving local people some external interaction and keeping them up to date with Apple Watches and GoPros and what not. My view was that the few thousand tourists that visit annually bring a pitiful two-three million dollars a year to the country, which doesn't even buy Kim-Jong Un a full season of Rodman. So the govenment gets an absolute majority of its money elsewhere, through scamming aid for example, and tourism is mostly "just" morally suspect, rather than an actual contributor to the wealth of the regime in any meaningful way.
NK has been given over $1bn in food aid over the years under the stipulation that the regime distributes it, a concession the UN sadly capitulated to. Of course famine hasn't weakened the regime, their bellies are full and they sold much of the food aid on the black market.
If financial institutions in the west had been wise to NK's insurance scams, idiotic "Sunshine" policies from South Korea had never happened, Japan had cracked down on NK institutions on its shores (and the money they send over) instead of weirdly tolerating them and food aid had been contingent on UN distribution the regime may well have collapsed.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. You are complicit.
Nexus Zero
Member
Change is never going to come from the outside for North Korea. Long-lasting change rarely does.
These are people whose only exposure to westerners are pictures of American soldiers salivating while cutting the tits off North Korean virgins. It doesn't feel wonderful to give money to the regime but it felt pretty great to know there's North Koreans in there who have seen westerners smile and wave like the humans we actually are. That's gotta make them think.
These are people whose only exposure to westerners are pictures of American soldiers salivating while cutting the tits off North Korean virgins. It doesn't feel wonderful to give money to the regime but it felt pretty great to know there's North Koreans in there who have seen westerners smile and wave like the humans we actually are. That's gotta make them think.
Sectorseven
Member
How do they find out you're American, I thought you need a Canadian or Australian passport to enter?
Gray Matter
Member
Why the hell does anyone want to visit North Korea?
Chittagong
Gold Member
Afaik you can enter with any passport except South Korean
Chittagong
Gold Member
- see what communism looks like in practice
- see what a world without brands and advertising looks like
- see what being cut off the world does to a society
- see how much media influences one's world view
- see a nation scale social experiment that can't (luckily) be repeated in our lifetimes
- keep local people up to date with the latest from the West
- gain empathy for the average North Korean citizen
Just to mention a few.
Vicetrailia
Member
I wouldn't visit unless I had a vision of educating others based on what was experienced, or fulfilling a long-term positive goal. But for my own entertainment? Hell nah.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
USED TO, USED TO, why does everyone ignore the quantifiers in a discussion?
ThreePiMatt
Member
You can't stop people from making the trip. You fly in to China, you voluntarily hand over your passport and they take you from China to North Korea. If people want to risk their freedom to visit North Korea, that's entirely their prerogative. They have to go in knowing the US does not have diplomatic relations with the country and will not be able to help them if they get in trouble.
ChronoSerge
Banned
north korea is actually a very interesting place so this isn't far fetched at all. I would go to north korea to check out the culture but would be terrified of being arrested
*sigh* not all of syria is in turmoil, there's a lot of history and very cool places to check out in syria
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Not trying to defend North Korea but when they arrest an American it's normally for something that American knew they shouldn't be doing. Normally it's Christian Missionaries.
Bull, I will never visit because I don't want to support such an authoritarian regime but thousands visit without any issue, even if you stray from the group you will just get a stern telling off. In-fact they usually have no issues with photos as long as it's not of militarily personnel or bases
This guy must of done something very illegal to warrant imprisonment.
Used to could mean any time in the past, even 10, 20 years. You also said no problems for Gaffers in China, implying these accusations were relevant to their stay. Which is why I assumed you meant in the near past.
Calm down bro. It's cool.
God Dayumm
Banned
Reminds me of that movie Bridge of Spies where the student was arrested in communist germany.
Totalitarian governments hate students it seems
Totalitarian governments hate students it seems
Yeah, it's great Spielberg is such an objective teller of history.
So if you had got detained, how much resources do you expect your country to spend to get you back? Or would you have accepted detention as one of the risks you took in exchange for this "most interesting" experience and gladly accept your fate of spending the rest of your life rotting in NK?
He wouldn't of got detained, stop with the what-if's when their probability of happening is nill. If he goes to a country as a tourist and does what a tourist does, sightseeing and eating then nothing bad will happen.
TheRagnCajun
Member
Exactly. Don't be an idiot and try to break the unity of Best Korea. How hard is that to follow?
woops. yeah, I meant sugar mama. haha
minor effort
Banned
Did you have a minder with you at all times? I mean that as a legitimate question.
Sure, risk of being the victim of street crime there may be lower than a lot of other countries, but I'm not sure having to be watchful of your every action under the constant presence of government chaperones counts as "safe".
The US has no formal diplomatic presence there, no embassy or consulate, so if something does happen to an American there, they might be in a difficult situation, like the student in the story.
Afaik, you don't just have one minder, but two (so that one can watch the other)!
No offense, but your tour guide is directly profiting from tourism to North Korea, so it's really no surprise they thought up a justification for doing so. I'm sure the people you are allowed to interact with, are carefully selected and controlled. They're also probably the people who are already doing pretty well within North Korea and have little reason to question or challenge the regime.
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