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[LCfiner]

1)Why couldn't gamecube be this successful?

2)I don't get it, xbox 360 and PS3 have more games than Wii every month released, yet they are getting ass kicked by the wii.

TWO years in and people are still confused by the mainstream success of the Wii?

I... I don't get it. I give up.

YOU SWING YOUR ARM AND YOUR DUDE ON THE SCREEN SWINGS A TENNIS RACKET!

 

[Omar Ismail]

Here is some food for thought...

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

 

[Gaborn]

I'd also argue that while a very casual Wii owner might not really look into the quality of a game before purchasing, is it really hard to believe that after buying and playing a terrible game, they'll decide to avoid buying and playing games that seem similar in the future? Whether that's a sequel, another game by the same publishers, or any other measure.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that the REASON a very casual Wii owner may have gotten the system is someone they know (a friend, a relative, whatever) got it and liked it and may have recommended some titles, so there may be some screening out of certain titles among groups of casuals.

 

[onipex]

You know... people make the argument "shovelware Wii title is selling pretty well, now imagine if the games were actually good!"

Well, let's really imagine that. The Wii audience is the definition of mainstream and casual. What that means, and what we've seen in other mediums, is that quality has very little bearing on sales to the mainstream. So WHY would companies spend time, money and effort to develop high quality titles for the Wii when the shovelware will sell just as much?

Unfortunately for devs, the PS360 audience is far more savvy, and therefore there is a direct correlation to quality and sales (most of the time...) So they have to spend the time, effort and resources to make high quality HD games if they want to see any sales at all.

This is exactly why outside of a few choice exeptions you're not going to see a sudden tide turning in the 3rd party landscape. Stop hoping for it to happen. It just won't.

Now deal with that reality however you want.

Quality games ( core and casual) with good marketing have sold better in most cases ( from the numbers I have seen) than the shovelware and popular/hyped games sell very well on the Wii. Take RE:UC , RE4, or GH for example.

I mean it doesn't take much thought or time to realize that the sonic and mario game sold better than the petz games, because of the two big IPs in the title and the game being fun to play ( to those that like mini games). You don't see the really crappy mini games or music games made by third parties selling like that game or GH on the Wii.

 

[manueldelalas]

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

lol what game would make you a hardcore gamer? MGS? Gears? rofl, those games are as hardcore as the songs in the movie "camp rock" are actual rock. L.O.L.

 

[ZAK]

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

I find the idea of a "hardcore" gamer that only owns one game console hard to swallow, personally.

 

[Concept17]

TWO years in and people are still confused by the mainstream success of the Wii?

I... I don't get it. I give up.

YOU SWING YOUR ARM AND YOUR DUDE ON THE SCREEN SWINGS A TENNIS RACKET!

Yeah. Its simple to understand that is the reason. But at the same time its hard to comprehend something so ridiculous.

 

[Link]

I think the biggest fallacy is assuming "casual" gamers will just buy shit and ignore good quality games. There's a reason why the classics have sold millions of copies, and it's not all because of hardcore gamers.

 

[onipex]

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

IDK, how many gamecube owners were hardcore? How about PS2 or xbox owners?

You know who are hardcore gamers for sure? Those gamers that play on the PC are hard to the core gamers. They truly play games old school style. The way games were meant to be played and on what video games were first played on.

 

[manueldelalas]

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

Here you got an example of a hardcore game

Now stop using the damn word, you are not one.

You are just a gamer that buys good selling or good reviewed games; a MAINSTREAM gamer, like 99% of the people buying the Wii, PS3 and 360.

 

[Omar Ismail]

Quality games ( core and casual) with good marketing have sold better in most cases ( from the numbers I have seen) than the shovelware and popular/hyped games sell very well on the Wii. Take RE:UC , RE4, or GH for example.

I mean it doesn't take much thought or time to realize that the sonic and mario game sold better than the petz games, because of the two big IPs in the title and the game being fun to play ( to those that like mini games). You don't see the really crappy mini games or music games made by third parties selling like that game or GH on the Wii.

Just look at the teirs of software sales on the Wii. And people can correct me if I'm wrong.

Super mega hit (5 million+)
- Nintendo IP
- high quality

Big hit (1 million-5 million)
- high value established IP
- high quality

Hit (500K-1million)
- questionable quality
- established IP (including IPs known outside of gaming)

moderate sales (200K-500K)
- random quality
- some established IP

Low sales (less than 200K)
- random quality
- no previous IP

So most devs/publishers are capable of putting out games in the moderate sales to Hit range on the Wii. Now notice in those categories that quality isn't a high determining factor of success. Sure it helps, I mean it can't hurt, but when allocating resources your best guys can definitely be better utilized elsewhere.

So why would EA ever put something like Mirror's Edge or Dead Space on the Wii? It doesn't make sense for them to do that until it's become a known IP. Like what has happened with Skate, Rock Band, and Guitar Hero.

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?

I can name dozens on the PS360.

So what will happen is you'll have the best designers working on new IP for the HD consoles to establish new franchises. Those IP will then be ported/sequeled onto both the HD consoles and an inferior version on the Wii.

Until the Wii has a hardcore userbase that can launch new IPs, you won't have the best designers working on Wii games, and therefore the Wii will always play second fiddle to the HD Consoles when it comes to 3rd party core games.

So to test my hypothesis we'll see what games like The Conduit, Deadly Creatures and Mad World do. If they bomb... then my theory is correct. If one or more breaks out and becomes a million-unit franchise, then expect to see a lot more core games launching on the Wii.

 

[Shaheed79]

That wasn't your argument, and neither was that shitty straw man.

How the hell is that a "straw man argument" and how are you going to tell me what my argument was? Since you think you know everything then tell me what my argument was so I can write it down for next time lol.

I didn't misrepresent an opponents argument or position so that I could easily shoot it down. At least learn what the term means.

 

[manueldelalas]

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?

Carnival games.
Red Steel.


Now mention your dozens (at least 24 games)

 

[markatisu]

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?

Carnival Games says hello (darnit already beat), I would really like to see this list of new IP PS3 games that launched to 1 million because I can think of Assassins Creed and thats it. Maybe Motostorm and Resistance from being launch games with absolutely nothing else on the system but then the same could be said for Red Steel on Wii which is past 1 million

 

[Shaheed79]

http://www.gamecyte.com/eas-fiscal-2009-update-sales-down-cuts-imminent



EDIT - Btw, here's their Q4 Wii releases:

Wii Rock Band 2 12/18/08
Wii Skate It 11/19/08
Wii MySims Kingdom 10/28/08
Wii Nerf N-Strike 10/28/08
Wii Ginsei Table Games Wii 10/23/08
Wii Celebrity Sports Showdown 10/23/08
Wii Monopoly 10/20/08
Wii Boogie SuperStar 10/14/08
Wii Littlest Pet Shop 10/14/08
Wii Saikyou Ginsei Mahjong 10/07/08

Note that RB2 isn't out yet.

With those games how could they NOT expect multi-million selling blockbusters? Their BIG HOLIDAY EXCLUSIVES for Wii are Skate It and MySims Kingdoms 2 games that were most likely dirt cheap to make and their complaining about the Wii. At least Activision put a little more effort with World Tour and an average port of their COD game.

 

[JudgeN]

Speaking of Shawn White what were the Wii's numbers?

 

[Chumly]

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?

Carnival Games
Red Steel
Deca Sports
Game Party

 

[boiled goose]

ome a known IP. Like what has happened with Skate, Rock Band, and Guitar Hero.

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?
.

red steel
bunch of casual stuff...

the question is... :

has there been any new IP on the wii that deserved 1 million and was poised to appeal to 1 million...

one could argue zack and wiki, no more heroes, de blob, trauma center, boom blox deserved 1 million sales.. the problem is that all of these are either niche puzzle games, have limited appeal, or received 0 publicity...

none of these have super high reviews either... 90+ on gamerankings or something like that

 

[markatisu]

Speaking of Shawn White what were the Wii's numbers?

No concrete numbers but Ubisoft said recently they expect to sell 1 million of the Wii Shaun White and 1.5m of Raving Rabbits TV when all is said and done

With those games how could they NOT expect multi-million selling blockbusters?

I would not be surprised if Nerf sells more than 1m by the end of next year, people buy that thing really fast at TRU and Gamestop

 

[Neo C.]

I have similar concerns for the other consoles as well. MS hasn't shown their cards and I'm not terribly interested in many of the '09 Sony properties; however, I'm much more concerned about Nintendo. I'll probably burn through all of the Wii games I'm interested in in 6 months and I'm simply trying to understand the frothing optimism and gloating over Wii sales when none of the Wii games that charted high in the NPD are even remotely 'hardcore'.

As someone mentioned (you?) why does Nintendo need to do take action to make more money when they're already making plenty? Likewise why does Nintendo need to take action to satiate the hardcore when they're doing just fine and the 'Nintendo hardcore' seem happy?

Just some thoughts.

What do you mean with "hardcore"? The "play the super niche games"-hardcore? Because someone who plays all the blockbuster stuff surely isn't hardcore.

The core/casual dichotomy is so wrong, simply because all the guys who name themselves "core gamers" think they are "hardcore", but they aren't. They mostly play the mainstream titles for core gamers, the millionsellers. Hardcore however has a different meaning.

 

[Jammy]

Wait... why is EA bitching at Wii again?

-Rock Band was 13 for the month of November, selling over 200,000. It's not only gimped, but was released wayyy late... and it's STILL selling well.

-The NERF game is actually performing REALLY well at retail. I think the peripheral idea with Wii games held true for this.

-How can you not profit off of Boogie and MySims sequels?

 

[Kuroyume]

I think the biggest fallacy is assuming "casual" gamers will just buy shit and ignore good quality games. There's a reason why the classics have sold millions of copies, and it's not all because of hardcore gamers.

When was the last time that a Mario, Smash Brothers, or Mario Kart game didn't sell millions of copies?

 

[Saint Gregory]

Because the PS2 had captured the 50 million or so hardcore gamers that exist around the world.

Wii's userbase is mighty impressive, but I'd wager the vast vast vast majority of its audience is the uber-casual mainstream. The kind of audience that doesn't care about quality like you and I do.

If there were really 50 million hardcore gamers in the world the PS3 and 360 would have absolutely nothing to worry about right now. And, as many were lamenting in this thread, there were several very high quality title released on the HD consoles that have sold very poorly. Let's not pretend that HD console owners are all game connoisseurs.

Give the Wii a steady flow of high quality 3rd party offerings and sales will follow. It's hard to blame people for missing the few real gems in the Wiis 3rd party library when they're all buried amongst the "Petz" games :/

Is there a single new IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on the Wii and achieved more than 1 million in sales?

How many new 3rd party IPs have launched on the Wii? I can count a few but there weren't many that bombed that we didn't see bombing from a mile away. It certainly isn't dozens.

 

[Link]

When was the last time that a Mario, Smash Brothers, or Mario Kart game didn't sell millions of copies?

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

 

[boiled goose]

When was the last time that a Mario, Smash Brothers, or Mario Kart game didn't sell millions of copies?

whats your point?

that games with broad appeal and good quality sell millions?

 

[Omar Ismail]

Carnival Games
Red Steel
Deca Sports
Game Party

Thanks. Now remember what my overall thesis is "To the Wii audience, quality isn't important."

So those 4 new IPs have reached 1 million+ sales while...

... zack and wiki, no more heroes, de blob, trauma center, boom blox ...

did not.

Would ANYBODY here argue that the four games in the first list are BETTER than the 4 games in the second list? Red Steel is probably the obvious example, but it's a launch game so that's another bonus going for it.

In light of these examples I rest my case.

If there were really 50 million hardcore gamers in the world the PS3 and 360 would have absolutely nothing to worry about right now.

I'm certainly not worrying about the 360. Microsoft isn't worrying either. By historical measures, the 360 is doing fantastic and is a successful project for Microsoft.

 

[Shaheed79]

This argument is extremely flawed. Why did developers bother making quality titles for the PS2?

It's like the people who spout that crap forget the PS2 ever existed.

 

[manueldelalas]

New IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on a console and achieved more than 1 million in sales:

Wii:
Red Steel
Carnival Games
Deca Sports
Game Party

PS3:
Assassins Creed

Xbox 360:
Assassins Creed
Bioshock (arguable, because I think it is related to another franchise)
Rock Band
Saints Row
Dead Rising
Lost Planet
Army of Two
Kane & Lynch (I think...)

9 HD games, not even one dozen... one is repeated...

 

[Shaheed79]

Let me ask you guys this.

Out of the 30 million+ people who own the Wii right now. How many of them do you think are hardcore gamers that care about quality and DO NOT OWN a PS3 or 360?

1 million? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million?

About the same percentage that PS2 had at 30+ Million? We already went over this. I asked several pages ago this.

So can someone explain to me as to why the 360 hasn't achieved PS2 level sales yet? It supposedly has the best library of games and has the cheapest console on the market and the Wii supposedly isn't competing with it since they are completely different demographics. So why exactly hasn't the 360 picked up the PS2 torch and carry it towards market leadership or at least PS2 2002 levels? What is so different between the 360 and PS2?

To illustrate the point that we already have our torch bearer for PS2 this generation. It's called the Wii. The quicker developers accept this the better. Japanese developers are finally accepting this hence Monster Hunter 3, Samurai Warriors 3 and Dragon Quest 10. Western publishers are going to be left out in the cold.

 

[bill0527]

New IP from a 3rd party that has LAUNCHED on a console and achieved more than 1 million in sales:

Wii:
Red Steel
Carnival Games
Deca Sports
Game Party

PS3:
Assassins Creed

Xbox 360:
Assassins Creed
Bioshock (arguable, because I think it is related to another franchise)
Rock Band
Saints Row
Dead Rising
Lost Planet
Army of Two
Kane & Lynch (I think...)

9 HD games, not even one dozen... one is repeated...

You forget this other little franchise called Gears of War on your 360 list.

 

[manueldelalas]

You forget this other little franchise called Gears of War on your 360 list.

published by Microsoft...

 

[Kuroyume]

nvm

 

[Chumly]

Thanks. Now remember what my overall thesis is "To the Wii audience, quality isn't important."

So those 4 new IPs have reached 1 million+ sales while...

did not.

example, but it's a launch game so that's another bonus going for it.Would ANYBODY here argue that the four games in the first list are BETTER than the 4 games in the second list? Red Steel is probably the obvious

In light of these examples I rest my case.



I'm certainly not worrying about the 360. Microsoft isn't worrying either. By historical measures, the 360 is doing fantastic and is a successful project for Microsoft.

These games would have sold like 10 copies on the PS3 and 360:

zack and wiki, no more heroes, de blob, trauma center, boom blox

How exactly does this rest your case????

Also Boom Blox is in this category

Hit (500K-1million)
- questionable quality
- established IP (including IPs known outside of gaming)

defined by you

 

[Shaheed79]

You forget this other little franchise called Gears of War on your 360 list.

Gears is 1st party lol.

 

[manueldelalas]

nvm

published by Microsoft...

stealth edit... (he said Mass Effect for the curious)

 

[Saint Gregory]

Would ANYBODY here argue that the four games in the first list are BETTER than the 4 games in the second list? Red Steel is probably the obvious example, but it's a launch game so that's another bonus going for it.

In light of these examples I rest my case.

Those are all good games (I own 3 of them) but as far as I know the publishers were very happy with the sales of Z&W(sequel greenlighted), NMH(highest sales for Suda ever), Boom Blox and Trauma Center. Can you realistically argue that any of those games would have performed better on the PS3 or 360. They were all very niche games, I mean one of them is a surgical simulation for God's sake!

 

[Shaheed79]

Thanks. Now remember what my overall thesis is "To the Wii audience, quality isn't important."

So those 4 new IPs have reached 1 million+ sales while...

did not.

Would ANYBODY here argue that the four games in the first list are BETTER than the 4 games in the second list? Red Steel is probably the obvious example, but it's a launch game so that's another bonus going for it.

In light of these examples I rest my case.



I'm certainly not worrying about the 360. Microsoft isn't worrying either. By historical measures, the 360 is doing fantastic and is a successful project for Microsoft.

WTF? You are pretty dense. If Wii owners didn't care about quality then wouldn't the Wii have WAY MORE crap games breaking 1 Million? You have the deduction skills of a 9 year old.

Look how many crap games sold for the PS2. Are you saying PS2 owners didn't care about quality either because of those?

 

[boiled goose]

In light of these examples I rest my case.

cmon...

even you dont buy your own argument....

there is obviously an audience for party, multiplayer games on the wii... no one is denying that.

but the point is that there hasnt been a new third party IP with the quality, hype, critical success, marketing, and appeal on the wi yet....

i ask you now?

what game should have sold a million that didnt...

I one mention 1.
okami....
critical success and there is definitely an audience for adventure games on wii. The only problem is that there wasnt much of a marketing push.. (it also failed on ps2 and i dont know if it got any advertising there..)

boom blox, ZandW, and de blob are all niche puzzlers... with somewhat kiddy art unfortunately... they are all close to or above 500k copies sold WW...

im sure given their development costs they were successful.

 

[MoogPaul]

Those are all good games (I own 3 of them) but as far as I know the publishers were very happy with the sales of Z&W(sequel greenlighted), NMH(highest sales for Suda ever), Boom Blox and Trauma Center. Can you realistically argue that any of those games would have performed better on the PS3 or 360. They were all very niche games, I mean one of them is a surgical simulation for God's sake!

wha????
when? where?

you best be not toying with me.

 

[Shaheed79]

Mirrors Edge and Banjo bombed on HD consoles so they must not care about quality. You see how stupid that sounds? There are many other factors involved to make such a blanket statement.

 

[boiled goose]

boom blox, ZandW, and no more heroes all have sequels coming...

de blob will probably have a sequel and im sure we might see more trauma center on wii.. (there have been 2 so far on wii and 2 on ds)

edit: Z&W might not have one soon afterall....

 

[Saint Gregory]

wha????
when? where?

you best be not toying with me.

Actually, scratch that. It was leaked on a retail release list but I see that Sven from Capcom shot it down later.

 

[ZAK]

Trauma Center isn't a new IP (one of them is a remake, for crap's sake), so it doesn't even seem relevant to Omar Ismail's rather narrow point...

 

[vanguardian1]

You forget this other little franchise called Gears of War on your 360 list.

1st party.

 

[Gaborn]

boom blox, ZandW, and no more heroes all have sequels coming...

de blob will probably have a sequel and im sure we might see more trauma center on wii.. (there have been 2 so far on wii and 2 on ds)

Source?

Edit:

“Let me preface this answer with a statement to set expectations that we’ve not announced another Z&W and I’m not so sure there will be one on any reasonable timeline.” - Christian Svensson, Vice-President of Strategic Planning & Business Development of Capcom

Source

That was June.

 

[SuperBonk]

About the same percentage that PS2 had at 30+ Million? We already went over this. I asked several pages ago this.



To illustrate the point that we already have our torch bearer for PS2 this generation. It's called the Wii. The quicker developers accept this the better. Japanese developers are finally accepting this hence Monster Hunter 3, Samurai Warriors 3 and Dragon Quest 10. Western publishers are going to be left out in the cold.

You bring up a good point, but it's not that simple. Wii is this generation's PS2 in terms of mainstream appeal and sales, but the user-base is substantially different. For example, the PS2 dominated in sales for Madden while the Wii does not. Sure, you could bring up the argument that Madden Wii might not be as good as the 360 version, but I don't know if that's true and would argue that it wouldn't even matter anyway.

I don't want to say the Wii isn't competing with the 360/PS3. It definitely is. But what it's showing is that the PS2 captured a very broad demographic last generation. The majority of that demographic apparently does not care for titles like Madden. The problem for developers is that in this generation, the Wii not only captured this demographic of the PS2 but also an entirely different one that didn't participate in the last generation. I think that 3rd parties are struggling in terms of ideas for what to put on Wii. Of course, the fact that there has really been no high-budget, well-marketed 3rd party title for Wii is also a problem.

 

[Shaheed79]

I can name dozens on the PS360.

Please name them.

 

[markatisu]

boom blox, ZandW, and no more heroes all have sequels coming...

de blob will probably have a sequel and im sure we might see more trauma center on wii.. (there have been 2 so far on wii and 2 on ds)

Not to mention Boom Blox is around 500k, Zack and Wiki did around 300k according to Capcom, and No More Heroes is estimated to sell about 500k by Marvelous

so its not like they were total failures

Also Rock Band Wii will hit 1 million shortly (it was at 500k or so in September and we know it sold near 200k just last month), technically it came after all these others but its not like it was years behind

 

[Saint Gregory]

Apparently Z&W sold 300,000 copies WW at last count. Much better than I thought but not as much as I expected pre-launch.

Edit: and I would think by now that RE:UC should be added to the Wii million seller list.

OK, seriously, WTF are you talking about Omar?

 

[Omar Ismail]

Maybe I should just state my theory mathematically...

Let us define a game's UNFAIRNESS RATIO (UR) as: Sales/Metacritic Score (S/MC)
Let us define a console's overall UNFAIRNESS RATIO as the AVERAGE of all of its games so: AVG(S/MC)

Now we can normalize this number by dividing by the number of consoles sold: CS
Giving us our overall CRAPPINESS QUOTIENT: (AVG(S/MC))/CS

My hypothesis is that the Wii's crappiness quotient is higher than any other console released in the past 10 years, and SUBSTANTIALLY higher than the HD consoles.

There. I just gave someone a 4th year thesis to research.