Evenbillybob
Neo Member
Do you have a source? Because as far as i know, that's not true.
Although I agree that the confiscation of valuables is stupid.
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NYT Denmark Struggles With Its Migrants
- Thread starter Antiochus
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Do you have a source? Because as far as i know, that's not true.
Although I agree that the confiscation of valuables is stupid.
d00d3n
Member
Leading politicians were saying that in Sweden one year ago, but they have stopped. The situation would have been possible to contain ten years ago with media channels closely aligned with state powers, but people seem to get their news from facebook and far-right media these days.
I honestly hope that we can keep some semblance of humanity when our welfare systems are tested the next twenty years. It doesn't look good, though. I blame the idealistic left-wing pro-immigration movement for creating this breeding ground for the EU nationalist parties. We could have done so much better with a budget controlled, realistic and sensible immigration policy.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The comparisons with America bug me out since the amount and type of immigration received from the Middle East is completely different from that entering Europe.
Unlike America, Europe is not separated from the Middle East by two oceans and entire continents; instead, it's geographically connected. Literally. This means that not only European countries don't get to pick the best and brightest from the region, but that anybody can get in.
Mediterranean Europe is just a very short trip by boat from North Africa, but people are also traveling through car, bus, train and even on foot. Immigrants literally step in. Unlike America, we are not only getting artists, doctors and middle class folks looking for a better life, but lots of war scarred people from troubled areas, peasants with ass backwards beliefs and even ISIS defectors and sympathizers. There's no filter. Europe is also receiving them at a pace that would probably give most Americans a heart attack.
In comparison, America is getting the closest thing to immigration royalty. The mere fact that a Middle Eastern person immigrating to the US has to jump through so many hoops (from buying an expensive ticket to getting a visa) automatically casts aside the poor and the disadvantaged. Those are the ones entering Denmark and other European countries en masse.
There's a reason Iranian and Lebanese immigrants from the 80's never caught much flack in comparison to the latest wave of Middle Eastern immigrants. The differences are staggering.
Unlike America, Europe is not separated from the Middle East by two oceans and entire continents; instead, it's geographically connected. Literally. This means that not only European countries don't get to pick the best and brightest from the region, but that anybody can get in.
Mediterranean Europe is just a very short trip by boat from North Africa, but people are also traveling through car, bus, train and even on foot. Immigrants literally step in. Unlike America, we are not only getting artists, doctors and middle class folks looking for a better life, but lots of war scarred people from troubled areas, peasants with ass backwards beliefs and even ISIS defectors and sympathizers. There's no filter. Europe is also receiving them at a pace that would probably give most Americans a heart attack.
In comparison, America is getting the closest thing to immigration royalty. The mere fact that a Middle Eastern person immigrating to the US has to jump through so many hoops (from buying an expensive ticket to getting a visa) automatically casts aside the poor and the disadvantaged. Those are the ones entering Denmark and other European countries en masse.
There's a reason Iranian and Lebanese immigrants from the 80's never caught much flack in comparison to the latest wave of Middle Eastern immigrants. The differences are staggering.
* natives and forced labor not withstanding.
Pegasus Actual
Member
Yeah what's with this peeping Danes shit? Why you want to look into people's homes?
freeofgreed
Member
They're not immigrants though they are refugees. I hate when people say this. They're there to escape their war torn country. They aren't there to assimilate, they aren't there to be a net positive, they are there strictly for humanitarian purposes. miscategorizing political refugees as economic migrants is imo a big part why there's so much unjust hatred of them in Europe.
It's not unjust by any means. Not every refugee has good intentions entering their host country.
TatteredHat
Member
You are correct, but it doesn't really matter if the end result is the same.
d00d3n
Member
I agree. This mischaracterization was willfully spread by pro-immigrant people in the established political parties and the media though.
freeofgreed
Member
Like?
Yes it does. For one refugees come with the intention of eventually returning to their home country. While it's true that many do stay permanently, until that happens it's still a mistake to categorize them as immigrants. Also the fact of the matter is taking in refugees is a charity case. So many people view this situation as "what are they bringing to the table?" When that is completely irrelevant when it comes to charity cases. Do people volunteer at a soup kitchen looking for something in return? The point I'm trying to make is, that you shouldn't expect to receive any net benefit when dealing with refugees, and you should expect a net negative (at least in the short term) economically, same as with any charity case.
Now if you don't give a fuck about charity/empathy and only want to preserve your culture/economy then say that but don't try to blame the refugees in that case.
Also America never had welfare programs and benefits like the nordic countries do. This is the one key difference that sparks such stong hate against the immigrants/refugees among the natives.
MikeHattsu
Member
Didn't they have such laws until the 1960s?
Recent attacks attributed by them, mental health/religious motives aside - attacks focused on by far-right media exacerbates the situation.
freeofgreed
Member
If we're talking strictly about Migration from Muslim countries sure. But in general? Not really, the US has over 11 million illegal immigrates living here currently and we receive close to half a million each year. So I'd hardly call us an "immigration royalty", where we get to pick and choose who comes here. Curious what the numbers for the EU would be though.
Nervous Sausage
Member
Not when your religious expression and cultural values directly conflict with those of your host Western nations. For example women aren't treated like cattle in modern societies and mistreating Jews or gays is frowned upon. Many of these economic migrants have no idea what constitutes a modern liberal society and we can't be expected to sit around see if they can catch up while putting so many native citizens at risk.
freeofgreed
Member
Aren't most of the recent attacks from Europe born Muslims and people who immigrate there well before the refugee situation?
Indeed. Haven't met a single iranian-austrian (whose parents fled back then) who wasn't perfectly integrated and studying at university or already finished, including one ex. (which didn't stop some of them from receiving racist abuse from old people here now and then).
Yes, but they are still immigrants. Doesn't matter if they are Afghan or Syrian.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, although this summer there have been two knife attacks (one at a restaurant and one on a train) and one bombing in Germany by refugees.
freeofgreed
Member
European born muslims are not immigrants and my comment was specifically about the distinction between refugees and migrants. So far very little if any(?) recent terrorist attacks have been attributed to the refugees which was the whole point of my comment.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm strictly talking about Middle Eastern immigrants. That should go without saying.
But of we are talking in general, immigrants from places such as Latin America are nowhere near as difficult to integrate nor face the same issues. Spain has received a large amount of folks from the continent and for the most part they are doing fine. Same with Romanians. Meanwhile, people from North Africa still struggle to integrate after 20 years.
Not all cultures are the same. To that point, attitudes of and towards black Muslims and Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East are rather different. This is something we need to understand if we are to face this crisis with some humanity. We need targeted solutions.
Alx
Member
While that's true regarding refugees, I also think that such refugees should try to fit in the society just like "regular" immigrants, even if they don't intend to stay forever. First like I said earlier, it's something you expect from tourists who only stay a few days, why wouldn't it apply to refugees ? It's just common social rules. Also getting to know the culture of their host is the least they can do out of gratitude.
Second you have to be realistic, most of them won't be getting back before long. Such issues take years/decades to settle, if they ever do. By the time it's safe to go back to their home country, they will (hopefully) have built a new decent life in their new country, and have kids born and raised there who wouldn't want to leave anyway.
Yes, that has happened. That munich shooter had his Iranian heritage emphasized with no mention that he was born in Germany in the far-right media, but I'm talking about people like Train attack in Wurzburg and a Syrian migrant killing a woman in Reutlingen, Germany
As I said, its these kind of attacks that get parroted, but just wanted to say that the want for stricter laws isn't unjust.
freeofgreed
Member
Hmm the bolded is debatable imo. Because a lot of the criticism I see in there threads towards refugees are the exact same criticism I see in the US towards Immigrants or black people. Also like you said There's an ocean between Europe and the Americas so the same way the US gets to Vet their Muslim pop. Spain/europe can vet their Hispanic population.
I'm not European so I personally wouldn't know but what makes Middle eastern Muslims specifically so hard to integrate versus other groups? Especially considering other Muslim groups like Pakistanis in the UK or Turkish people in Germany have been able to integrate much better. As an outsider this leads me to believe that it's something else that's the route of the problem as oppose to any inherent fault towards the migrants. Of course again I'm not European but I am interested to know.
Nah, my family were asylum seekers and got stable jobs and life within a year. The difference between now and then is that today's economy is much more advanced, so we need to train the people much better, but we totally neglect this development.
As someone working in the asylum business, I can offer very obvious solutions. Unfortunately asylum is a very political field with lots of special interests, therefore we have to deal with it with subpar methods.
And yes, if done correctly, we could use them to boost the economy. If only we could deal with it with pragmatism and enough finance support...
freeofgreed
Member
The difference is a tourist "wants" to go to a foreign country and is often financially stable. So of course they'd be more willing to "assimilated" once there. Most refugees are not in Europe by choice. Also you're right that many will stay permanently but until that happens it's a huge misstep to categorize them as Migrants.
Yes but these are isolated incidents and aren't terrorist attacks just regular crimes. Even in the second article you linked it said the police didn't think it was terror related. Of course you're going to have issues but the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of refugees aren't committing crimes or anything close to terrorist attacks.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Barely. Nowhere near as the US for a multitude of reasons, including claims of ancestry the right to family reunification, which become a powerful combination. Latin Americans emmigrating to Spain face less hurdles than Middle Easterns emmigrating to America.
Turkish people in Germany are a perfect example of a minority severely lagging behind others.
freeofgreed
Member
Same can be said of Hispanics in the US yet you said they integrate much better...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Both groups face issues, but Latin American immigrants integrate better and face less issues than Muslims.
This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.
I very much doubt that has been a reason as of recently. Politicians are very much aware that they need skilled immigrants to solve these issues, not unskilled immigrants.
This' true?
Here in Sweden I know it isn't frowned upon to cross the street if you don't see any cars coming from any direction. You can't however just start walking anyway during a rush hour as people seem to do in the middle east and expect people be okay with you weaving between cars, that I know at least will stress people the fuck out here.
I think it is very expected though that when you move to a country, you're supposed to try and adapt to the culture of that country when it comes to behavioural norms and social rules.
Not sure about Denmark. In Sweden, I often saw parents with their kids wait when the light was red, and in that case I also waited. In Germany, you most definitely stop - police could fine you and others will look at you if you don't even if there's no car at all. Only city where this probably isn't the case is Mannheim; the traffic lights in that city were garbage.
It's only about valuables, but definitely not gold fillings or personal items (like a wedding ring). That policy also isn't garbage as the people receive social welfare. The same would happen to native citizens if they applied to social welfare.
Turkish people in Germany have not been able to integrate particularly well.
freeofgreed
Member
But it is. Especially since you haven't laid out explicitly why Muslim groups don't integrate as well as others groups after I asked you. I'm skeptical because as a minority in America none of the complaints I've read about the refugees in Europe are anything I haven't heard before used in the US. There are differences sure, but I don't believe they're that unique to the point where people can use it as an excuse for failed integration.
Is it insular commmutiess?
Is it not speaking the native tongue?
Is it not being economically successful?
All of these apply to America as well. They key difference is the religious one but even then that doesn't account for the millions of Muslims who have successfully integrated in Europe.
Edit: Not trying to be a hardass, just genuinely want to know if it's a actual difference or if it's just Europe's inexperience with dealing with a large influx of outsiders that's causing the issue.
I think, we are improving in that aspect at least.
I don't mean to say that refugees will never be able to work or that it's not possible to integrate them into the economy. Programms to facilitate that are very important and it's arguably the most important aspect of "integration".
I just think that saying "we are taking in all these people to boost population growth and the economy!" is disingenous. We are doing it because we want to help people in distress. It's going to cost money. It's not economic policy. Them being able to work and live here normally is obviously a win win for everyone, which is why it's important we try to achieve that.
BrassDragon
Member
Quoting because this post is spot on and USAGAF should take note. Thank you.
Nervous Sausage
Member
Islam is the short answer to be blunt. The ones that integrate better just take their faith a bit less seriously. At it's core it teaches against integration and that the sharia law is the only law they should follow.
Such vague bullshit. Muslims, which includes both men and women btw, are not 'treating women like cattle', what does that even mean. And crimes perpetrated by muslims against gays or jews should be treated as what they are i.e. specific crimes done by specific individuals. We shouldn't cobdemn an entire community for something as specific as harrasment. The vast majority of muslims living in Europe are not criminals. Some of them dress differently, look differently, follow a different religion and speak a different language but the beauty of a liberal, secular society should be that those different to us still have a place here. And they understand very well what constitutes a modern liberal society which is exactly why they are excircising their universal human rights without shame or trepidation, clearly to the irritation of some natives who seem to believe these people should perhaps be a little more grateful and have the common decency to intuitively get that those universal rights we like to tout don't actually count for those deemed 'too' different from us.
BrassDragon
Member
I've dealt with a lot of different muslim communities from a law enforcement perspective and really don't see Islam as the core problem.
From what I observed, the Turkish, Moroccan, Somali, Eritrean, Afghan, Syrian, Iraqi and Egyptian communities are incredibly diverse in their practice and intepretation of the faith.
Almost all problems stem from rigid honor culture, highly patriarchal beliefs, cultural isolationism and tribalism that, quite surprisingly, worsens with subsequent generations instead of diminishing as we naively expected. One factor (among many) is that several state actors have a vested interest in keeping 'their' citizens culturally linked to the country of origin and use propganda, security services and investments to promote the shared identity.
Yes, Islam can enable and underpin these attitudes (and is sometimes used as an excuse even within the communities) but take away the religion (and a lot of the worst offenders aren't practicing their beliefs at all) and you're still left with a regressive culture that people passionately (and violently) uphold. The best ways of turning these attitudes around, that I've seen, actually involve religious leaders and appeals to the faith.
Alx
Member
Categorization is more of an administrative matter, it defines whether they're allowed in or not, and what kind of legal status they have. It doesn't really change the expectations on social behaviour : once you're in, you're part of the local society. Even if you didn't really want to be there (still better be Danish than dead, right ?).
ClosingADoor
Member
Nobody cares about other people being different as long as they don't cost money and aren't causing problems. Unfortunately, crime and economic statistics point in the other direction. That will naturally lead to conflict between groups.
You can talk about universal rights, but coupled with those rights are also some duties towards the society you live in. And too many people do not perform those duties, which leads to resentment and problems. Or they don't think they are part of that society at all, which is an even larger problem.
People can have different cultures, religions and language, but when you move to a new country, you need to adapt those things so it fits in with the existing ones there.
Hypnotoad
Member
What you are describing is a form of multiculturalism that the Danish people never signed up for. They don't have to accept cultural and religious practice that clearly violate Danish law and Human rights and which are practiced by certain communities and outright preached and endorsed by leading Imams.
http://www.thelocal.dk/20160601/denmark-moves-to-rein-in-hate-preachers
In that same program it was revealed that mosques put pressure on recent immigrant/refugee arrivals to not integrate and learn the language, as well as to rely on welfare rather than work, and of course to keep tight control over married women.
And then there is this (http://cphpost.dk/news/danish-imam-says-government-should-accept-child-marriages-among-refugees.html)
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Europe has dealt with (some) previous immigration waves with success. France and Germany received mass amounts of immigrats from Italy and Spain after WW2 and Yugoslavia during the 90's. Those families are now fully integrated, not unlike many Polish people in the UK and a large amount of Romanians in Spain. It should be noted that both Spanish and Italian immigrants also faced significant discrimination at the time.
One of the chief differences is that while immigrants tend to be insular as it's easier to find support within a community, some Muslim immigrants are specially insular. Many French and Spanish citizens immigrating to Germany and France during the 50's and the 60's quickly married outside of their group and opened business catering the main population. One generation in their descendants considered themselves citizens of their parents' host country instead of Spanish or Italian. The same is also true for many Latinamerican immigrants today. Mixed couples are plentiful.
Meanwhile, Muslims, and particularly those from certain, less socially developed countries (Lebanese and Iranian Muslims have traditionally integrated themselves very well in their host countries, so did pre-civil war Syrian nationals) are much more socially conservative than your average immigrant. It's not that they don't talk the local language, which most of them understand to a decent degree, but that a sizeable amount of them don't venture outside their communities. It doesn't help that they are much more socially conservative -if not regressive- than their host countries, creating friction with their neighbours.
This is not something that hasn't been examined before. The social dynamics are a complete mess and not very comparable to any other group. A study from the University of Barcelona (IIRC) focusing on the immigrant population of Spain found that most young Muslim women want to marry a man outside of their group, and that those who do so not only become more religiously relaxed, but their children enjoy better academic success. Meanwhile, Muslim men vastly prefer to marry Muslim women. If they marry a local, they largely expect her to convert. Also, their offspring doesn't fare as well as that from Muslim women married to non-Muslim locals.
While there's a core of racists dead set in preventing proper integration, one of the biggest problems with the way we've been handling immigration for the past decades is the idiotic belief that throwing people into low income neighbourhoods and forgetting about them would be enough. After all, it worked during the 50's and the 60's, right? Nevermind the fact that jobs were plentiful back then and those low skilled immigrants were dead set in making their host countries their home instead of replicating the conditions from their homelands or simply fleeing away.
Different immigrant groups carry different attitudes and social conventions that need to be individually addressed. A Lebanese or Jordanian immigrant is probably vastly different from a Syrian, a Libyan or an Afghan refugee like the ones currently rushing towards Europe, and none of them can be expected to thrive like other immigrants did in the 60's.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I think it's often difficult or even impossible to separate religion and culture in many of these places. Their religion is their culture, their culture is their religion. They don't have pockets of "religion time" while living without thinking much about it the rest of the time, like most western religious people. People in Muslim cultures LIVE their religion to a degree that is basically unseen over here. Which is a huge problem when they then come to a completely different culture like Denmark or Sweden. We don't do things that way here, and for very many immigrants that's almost impossible to adapt to it seems. So instead they collect into groups in parallel societies where they can keep living more like they did back home and interact very little with the outside world. Many get permanently stuck on welfare, etc. It's not a good situation. Integration needs to happen to a much larger degree, but I'm not sure how to accomplish that. This is a case where we're really just so different. Incompatible in many ways. Us Swedes sure aren't going to adapt to their culture, and they don't want to adapt to ours, so what do you do? "Multi-culture" in practice usually means segregation.
(This doesn't apply to everyone, obviously. There are great examples of Muslim immigrants who have integrated excellently. Unfortunately the opposite is too often true.)
And you're basing this on..?
This is true in large parts of the country, not including Copenhagen though.
I really don't think this is a general thing. But I'd say it looks kinda odd when a house just has all curtains shut. But hey, people do what they wanna do.
Overrepresentation of muslim migrants in criminal statistics differs not just per European country but also per country of origin. In the Netherlands Moroccans are more often overrepresented than Turks and non-muslims like the Antilians are also overrepresented for certain crimes. Besides, you can't discuss overrepresentation in crime without also looking at overrepresentation in other statistics. Overrepresentation in poverty, school-dropout rates and unemployment play huge roles in the overrepresentation in crime. Are things like poverty and school-dropout also caused by Islam? Even for the non-Islamic Antilians? These communities want to work and go to school, and we should look at the systemic and societal reasons for their lack of succes. And all this still doesn't take away from the fact that most muslim migrants and their children are not criminals. What other duties do they have to fulfill? And where in any European constitution does it say that migrants need to adapt their religion or way of dress or culture.
Speaking as the son of an African Muslim refugee: these countries are ours now just as much as they are of the white natives. We can wear whatever we want to wear, worship whoever we want to worship and speak whatever language we want to speak. Not only do we have the right to exercise our freedoms; we also have a right to all the legal protections others have. The right to special religious schools, the right to not be discriminated against for our faith at work, the right to challenge those that wish to insult us, the right to not be racially profiled. Migrants and their children acting like they own the place is for many Europeans the greatest nightmare but we do, just as much as they do. We don't have extra duties, we don't need to be grateful or apologize for the most conservative among us and we sure as hell don't have to change in order to appease scared white people.
ClosingADoor
Member
I was not talking just about Islam - although I think it contributes to certain worldviews that get in the way of a successful life in Western society if followed too strictly like some fundamentalist do, and there are some dangers in having fundamentalists preach their ways and allowing that.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't have the same rights as the native population. But people arriving here will need to adapt to some extend, since they are simply arriving in a different society and will need to function there. That is not something strange. And if they don't, that will lead (and has already led) to communities that are placed outside of society. If you move somewhere, you need to adapt and find your place, not expect the place to change for you.
And yes, those over representation are also in education unemployment and other things. Like I said: crime and economic statistics. They go hand in hand up to a certain point, so both need to be solved. And that will also have to come from the people themselves, instead of pointing at the "scared white people" for it. How do you expect those people to fix your problems?
But a very large problem is that the people causing trouble don't feel like they are part of the country and society. They place themselves outside of it and somehow feel more attached to the country of origin of their parents. Nothing wrong with being proud of that, but this also leads to a distance from the country you reside in. And there those rights and duties come into play. Because you can't demand all those things of a country if you don't even consider yourself a part of it.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
And Sweden doesn't need to look further then Denmark to see Xenophobic policies take place.
I'm sorry but the fact that people are in this thread describing the problem by laying all the blame and the feet of Muslims (well brown people if we are being honest) with out mentioning the institiutional racism and discrimination is FUCKED!
There has been a 31% rise in reported “Afrophobic” hate crimes from 2010 to 2014 in Sweden for gods sake!
Source: http://qz.com/516017/sweden-is-not-the-tolerant-raceless-paradise-it-claims-to-be/?utm_source=YPL
The only way this compares to the US is the fact that the Middle East and North Africa is the closest geografical places with POC, just like Central and South America are the closest geografical places with POC. That is why the right wingers mostly target the people who are closest.
His Majesty
Banned
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