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[okrim]

I never understand the wii success, it's one of the big misteries of the console history...

 

[JavyOO7]

There is no mystery about the Wii's success.

 

[WrikaWrek]

*slaps forehead*

It's called sarcasm chief. Are you feigning stupidity?

Right, sarcasm, of course. Basically, you can't write worth a damn, seeing there was no hint of sarcasm in your posts.

 

[okrim]

There is no mystery about the Wii's success.

No? How many quality games there are in this console in comparison to the others two? And its hardware specs? And the price more high than the 360?

 

[Kilrogg]

I never understand the wii success, it's one of the big misteries of the console history...

Opinions aside, google Sean Malstrom, Disruption and Blue Ocean Strategy if you want to know how Nintendo managed to be so successful. There will always be people that'll say "wah wah that's just PR" and "wah wah Malstrom is a nintendrone", but as far as strategy is concerned, all of this tells you the so-called "mystery" behind Nintendo's success. There's no mystery in business.

 

[charlequin]

Please don't ask me to waste time proving such obvious statements again.

I'll ask you whatever I want. If you're worried about wasted time, back up your assertions with real numbers upfront.

What I would point out in followup here is that the PS2 similarly maintained about a 2:1 lead in total software titles released in comparison to the OG Xbox, which in turn would suggest to me that a market leading system having more total games than its competitor is not actually a good reason to disqualify its ability to sell more software than said competitor.

No I didn't. Try reading before posting, please.

Yes you did. Despite the topic of discussion being one specific point (sales), you're trying to argue for an alternate methodology -- one that's wildly inaccurate in many specific cases (it makes Guitar games 2-3x more valuable to sell than other games, it treats Greatest Hits and budget titles equivalently even though the former are generally producing pure profit for their publisher) and that specifically works to unbalance the results by granting the HD systems the benefit on one end (that extra revenue) and not docking them on the other (those extra upfront development costs, which might very well be more than using up that additional ~$7 revenue on average.)

Essentially, there's no reason to make this argument except to try to pick nits against a specific, proven fact that shows the Wii to be outperforming the 360 in a specific area.

My assumption is that they will receive a fixed percentage from either of these sales at worst, and a slightly higher margin on Xbox360 sales at best, due to the possibility of flat distribution charges per unit, rather than percentage of sale.

Which, again, is useless information on its own. Revenue is irrelevant until it's been compared to production costs, development costs, advertising budget, and all the other factors that go into producing final profit numbers.

The long and the short of it is that we can't meaningfully measure these factors on the production end in total -- we can look at an individual game and its sticker price, try to estimate what ballpark its production costs are in, and then measure its success based on that, but without a lot of numbers we don't now and probably never will have (average retail price on every title, game development cost figures, advertising budgets, etc.) it's impossible to make a reasonable profitability estimate here. Raw unit sales are a good way to take all of that out in the wash.

Opinions aside, google Sean Malstrom

Don't google Sean Malstrom. He's a zealotous parrot who can repeat talking points from the Blue Ocean and Disruption strategies very effectively, but he doesn't have an original thought and he frequently misses the subtleties of the console market (like why PS360 is still proving to be a somewhat viable platform) as a result.

 

[Gaborn]

No? How many quality games there are in this console in comparison to the others? And its hardware specs? And the price?

This is the whole of the problem with hardcore gamers beautifully put.

 

[Kilrogg]

Don't google Sean Malstrom. He's a zealotous parrot who can repeat talking points from the Blue Ocean and Disruption strategies very effectively, but he doesn't have an original thought and he frequently misses the subtleties of the console market (like why PS360 is still proving to be a somewhat viable platform) as a result.

I didn't say he's perfect, you know. But as you said, he can explain disruption and blue ocean very effectively, thus giving you a global idea of why Nintendo succeeded, don't you think? I was answering someone who claims not to understand why Nintendo succeeded at all (or at least, thinks it's a mystery), so why not suggesting him to read the only guy who writes about Nintendo's strategy? As long as absolutely no one challenges him with in-depth analyses of Nintendo's strategy (i.e. disruption and blue ocean), like it or not, he is the only reference out there.

[EDIT] By the way, to be honest, I wish Malstrom had "competition", so to speak. His extreme position and flamboyant style make it very easy to get what he's talking about, but it lacks precision, and sometimes, I like dry text. As much as I like the guy, I don't want him (or anyone) to be my only source on a given subject. Some here would do a fine job providing a good counterpoint, but they don't write articles, sadly :/.

 

[Rolf NB]

Oh well ...

Wait. Are we talking about free cartoons? :lol You always bring awesome examples. If you were talking about the games based on the licenses...well, wow, popular license sells, news at eleven.

And yeah, Naruto on the 360 sold well, DMC4 too, etc. It's not that eastern art styles don't sell, is just that hey, kiddie looking stuff like Vesperia probably won't sell well with marketing, let alone without it.

I'd argue that Tales Of Vesperia isn't far ahead of Naruto in kiddiness. Or Bleach. Or other popular anime licenses. Your point as bolded seems to be that Vesperia's art style automatically precludes it from selling, no matter how far they'd have gone on the marketing end. I can't agree with that. To me it looks like the other popular anime licenses prove that you can't blame the art style (alone) for limiting the game's success.

To say that yeah, well, Naruto and Bleach are popular and Vesperia isn't is a tautology and doesn't explain shit.

 

[WrikaWrek]

Oh well ...I'd argue that Tales Of Vesperia isn't far ahead of Naruto in kiddiness. Or Bleach. Or other popular anime licenses. Your point as bolded seems to be that Vesperia's art style automatically precludes it from selling, no matter how far they'd have gone on the marketing end. I can't agree with that. To me it looks like the other popular anime licenses prove that you can't blame the art style (alone) for limiting the game's success.

To say that yeah, well, Naruto and Bleach are popular and Vesperia isn't is a tautology and doesn't explain shit.

:lol

Oh really, so now the fact that they are popular cartoons doesn't influence anything? Vesperia isn't a kids game, yet it looks like a kids game.

Art Style, which influences visual appeal, plays a huge part in the attention a game gathers around it.

If you have an artstyle that by default turns down its appeal for many of the people you want buying your game, and it's not a game based on a popular IP, and it has no marketing...

Sounds like a recipe for failure.

 

[legend166]

The "bubububu 3rd parties don't do well because Nintendo take up all the top spots!" argument is so stupid.

They'd take up the top spots on any console. They're the largest and most popular game developer/publisher in the world.

 

[Rolf NB]

:lol

Oh really, so now the fact that they are popular cartoons doesn't influence anything?

Their popularity is the result of what they are and how they have been marketed. You keep arguing that products of that particular art style can't be popular, no matter what. So how could Naruto, Bleach and Dragon Ball ever become popular?

 

[Hunahan]

I'll ask you whatever I want. If you're worried about wasted time, back up your assertions with real numbers upfront.

Haha. I knew getting involved with this thread was a bad idea.

Is this how it usually works? I make a claim, get called out, accused of being retarded, caps locks fly like crazy, and then when I substantiate the claim with actual data - illustrating how many of you don't even really have a clue about the actual state of the industry you're talking about - people still feel like they have the right to get all snippy?

Too funny.

As for the rest of the replies, I really don't have the time or interest to go through them point by point, particularly since most of them are just the same points over and over or compounded personal attacks.

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

Nintendo Wii
350 titles generating 30,000,000 unit sales averages to 85,714 copies sold per game.

85,714 copies x $50 = $4,285,714

let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $2,142,857 cash inflow.

If they budget for $1,000,000 in costs, they receive $1,142,857 in profit.

Xbox 360
175 titles generating 27,000,000 unit sales averages to 154,285 copies sold per game.

154,285 copies x $60 = $9,257,142

Let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $4,628,571 cash inflow.

If they budget for $2,000,000 in costs, they receive $2,628,571 in profit.

Feel free to adjust these numbers however you wish in terms of what percentage the publisher receives of gross revenue, or what percentage of revenue the budgets of these games should be. It will not change the fundamental conclusion.

Obviously many publishers invest significantly more into their development costs. Either these are the companies that are simultaneously projecting higher revenues and unit sales, or they are failed businesses that will not survive. That's just life.

The point is that it is *possible* for a company to achieve higher profits, even with double the costs, on one alternative investment to the other. And the reason for that is higher revenues. Hardly irrelevant.

If you go back through my posts, you'll see that these are the same claims I have made all along.

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Have fun.

 

[freddy]

No? How many quality games there are in this console in comparison to the others two? And its hardware specs? And the price more high than the 360?

Okrim, you'll just have to swallow the fact that people love the controls and games available. Mom and pop(and Pa, Uncle Jeff and Nanny May too) are muscling in on your hobby.

 

[SLYspyda]

Haha. I knew getting involved with this thread was a bad idea.

Is this how it usually works? I make a claim, get called out, accused of being retarded, caps locks fly like crazy, and then when I substantiate the claim with actual data - illustrating how many of you don't even really have a clue about the actual state of the industry you're talking about - people still feel like they have the right to get all snippy?

Too funny.

As for the rest of the replies, I really don't have the time or interest to go through them point by point, particularly since most of them are just the same points over and over or compounded personal attacks.

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

Nintendo Wii
350 titles generating 30,000,000 unit sales averages to 85,714 copies sold per game.

85,714 copies x $50 = $4,285,714

let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $2,142,857 cash inflow.

If they budget for $1,000,000 in costs, they receive $1,142,857 in profit.

Xbox 360
175 titles generating 27,000,000 unit sales averages to 154,285 copies sold per game.

154,285 copies x $60 = $9,257,142

Let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $4,628,571 cash inflow.

If they budget for $2,000,000 in costs, they receive $2,628,571 in profit.

Feel free to adjust these numbers however you wish in terms of what percentage the publisher receives of gross revenue, or what percentage of revenue the budgets of these games should be. It will not change the fundamental conclusion.

Obviously many publishers invest significantly more into their development costs. Either these are the companies that are simultaneously projecting higher revenues and unit sales, or they are failed businesses that will not survive. That's just life.

The point is that it is *possible* for a company to achieve higher profits, even with double the costs, on one alternative investment to the other. And the reason for that is higher revenues. Hardly irrelevant.

If you go back through my posts, you'll see that these are the same claims I have made all along.

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Have fun.

I see what you're saying. But two things need to be added: Development costs for the PS360 should be more than twice costs for the Wii. Also, the Wii has more games being published than the PS360, that means more profit.

 

[Gaborn]

I see what you're saying. But two things need to be added: Development costs for the PS360 should be more than twice costs for the Wii. Also, the Wii has more games being published than the PS360, that means more profit.

He's also making a huge assumption in terms of average sales, and that all titles were equally expensive to make. There's a reason that Suda51 has been able to make so many legendarily amazing games for a small niche of players - because costs are low enough they still make a nice profit.

And, for every dollar of costs above the "average" he calculated (which is skewed by a crapload of shovel ware which cost considerably less to make) game sales have to make a certain amount more in profit (not just a "dollar" more, since sales aren't 1-1 like that for developers)

 

[charlequin]

Is this how it usually works?

Is "people who make claims are expected to substantiate them" how it usually works?

Yes. Yes it is.

(I don't recall any "caps lock flying" or whatever in my particular response, but honestly you should be able to take a little criticism if you're going to jump into the Sales-Age threads.)

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

None of your highfalutin' math here actually changes the fundamental point, which is that you're seizing on the facts that we do know ($10 premium for HD games), making up some other numbers (like those budgetary figures you cited), and then combining them as if that somehow proves a point. There are all kinds of possible situations that could change that conclusion: if the extra 175 Wii titles are distributed unevenly throughout the sales brackets (if the majority of them are poor sellers, for example); how the various titles are distributed by publisher; how many titles have sold what amounts at what level of discounts; what the actual average budget figures look like; and so on.

The reason we agree on sales numbers to discuss here is that it's essentially impossible to get an accurate read of data on the publisher's end (since all the factors I mention above are obscured), but we can get a pretty good read on the consumer's end: sales figures measure the discrete act of buying software very cleanly.

 

[P90]

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Some statistics are "non-negotiable", truly significant, and are located squarely in Bill O'Reilly's No Spin Zone:

Shipped units (HW and SW)
Units sold to customer (HW and SW)
SW:HW ratio
Quarterly revenue (Gaming)
Quarterly profit (Gaming)
The platform that gets the next DragonQuest game

 

[thestopsign]

Haha. I knew getting involved with this thread was a bad idea.

Is this how it usually works? I make a claim, get called out, accused of being retarded, caps locks fly like crazy, and then when I substantiate the claim with actual data - illustrating how many of you don't even really have a clue about the actual state of the industry you're talking about - people still feel like they have the right to get all snippy?

Too funny.

As for the rest of the replies, I really don't have the time or interest to go through them point by point, particularly since most of them are just the same points over and over or compounded personal attacks.

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

Nintendo Wii
350 titles generating 30,000,000 unit sales averages to 85,714 copies sold per game.

85,714 copies x $50 = $4,285,714

let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $2,142,857 cash inflow.

If they budget for $1,000,000 in costs, they receive $1,142,857 in profit.

Xbox 360
175 titles generating 27,000,000 unit sales averages to 154,285 copies sold per game.

154,285 copies x $60 = $9,257,142

Let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $4,628,571 cash inflow.

If they budget for $2,000,000 in costs, they receive $2,628,571 in profit.

Feel free to adjust these numbers however you wish in terms of what percentage the publisher receives of gross revenue, or what percentage of revenue the budgets of these games should be. It will not change the fundamental conclusion.

Obviously many publishers invest significantly more into their development costs. Either these are the companies that are simultaneously projecting higher revenues and unit sales, or they are failed businesses that will not survive. That's just life.

The point is that it is *possible* for a company to achieve higher profits, even with double the costs, on one alternative investment to the other. And the reason for that is higher revenues. Hardly irrelevant.

If you go back through my posts, you'll see that these are the same claims I have made all along.

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Have fun.

This may all look good and dandy on paper, but its pure bullshit. Any good Sales-Age representative could tell you that. You can't generalize the cost of a game, the spectrum of budgets on a single console ranges far too much to simply discern any consistency in the matter. If you've ever heard of Monorojo, he was an old member of the forum who manipulated numbers to fit his agendas, this looks really similar. I can't put up any specific numbers on the subject, but neither can you. So lets leave it at that.

 

[Version 3.0]

Guys, we really don't have enough data to figure out whether 3rd parties make more money on the Wii or the PS3/360. And if we did have all the data that NPD compiles, I expect the answer would be very muddled anyway. Something like:

1. 3rd parties overall make more money on the Wii.
2. But several important, large 3rd parties make more money on the HD consoles.

...and then the discussion would break down into nitpicking who's making money on "good games" and who we should want to succeed, as well as knocking those large 3rd parties who haven't made a significant commitment to the Wii.

 

[Gaborn]

Also, regarding Revenue and what value it may have:

Taken from here

 

[jvm]

Also, regarding Revenue and what value it may have:

Taken from here

Heh. It amuses me when those graphs show up in a discussion.

 

[Gaborn]

Heh. It amuses me when those graphs show up in a discussion.

understandable, you do good work can't wait to read your NPD summary for the month

 

[egocrata]

Nintendo is doomed. Seriously, waaaay too much profits. They will waste it in hookers and drugs, I tell you.

 

[avatar299]

Right, sarcasm, of course. Basically, you can't write worth a damn, seeing there was no hint of sarcasm in your posts.

:lol you honestly are this stupid.

Next time I'll write SARCASM in big bold letters so you can keep up, okay

Oh really, so now the fact that they are popular cartoons doesn't influence anything? Vesperia isn't a kids game, yet it looks like a kids game.

Art Style, which influences visual appeal, plays a huge part in the attention a game gathers around it.

If you have an artstyle that by default turns down its appeal for many of the people you want buying your game, and it's not a game based on a popular IP, and it has no marketing...

Sounds like a recipe for failure.

So in other words 360 owners can't stand a decent style change away from the usaul drek we see from UE3? Thanks for proving my damn point. After 2 years, after Lost Odyssey which was supposed to bring in the larger overall rpg demographic, after every fucking excuse has been used, the plain fact is rpgs bombing on the 360 is becuase of the 360 owners.

Can't wait to see Infinite Undiscovery. Less of a "kiddy" art style, much more ads, It should do well over 500K in Wrika World

 

[JavyOO7]

No? How many quality games there are in this console in comparison to the others two? And its hardware specs? And the price more high than the 360?

People happen to like the console for the remote and the software it brings. Wii Sports brought them in. They tried out Wii Play and Wii Fit and might even play Wii Music. Because of this, they have also bought Nintendo's usual 1st party offerings. Look how well their core titles have sold compared to GameCube's offerings in first party sales.

To the average consumer, the Wii has all the software they could ever need and completely disregard the other 2 HD consoles. It starts with the remote...

 

[Vast Inspiration]

Hey guys, I'm bitter that I still don't get to play Tales of Vesperia so why don't I bitch about how your userbase doesn't buy the game and its soooo unfair that you guys get to play the game!!

 

[Stumpokapow]

So in other words 360 owners can't stand a decent style change away from the usaul drek we see from UE3? Thanks for proving my damn point. After 2 years, after Lost Odyssey which was supposed to bring in the larger overall rpg demographic, after every fucking excuse has been used, the plain fact is rpgs bombing on the 360 is becuase of the 360 owners.

It's already been said, in this very thread, by me, that Lost Odyssey would be in the absolute top bracket of US RPG sales even on the PS2/GCN. If LO "bombed" because of the 360 audience, then holy fuck the PS2 audience must have been totally pathetic.

Can't wait to see Infinite Undiscovery. Less of a "kiddy" art style, much more ads, It should do well over 500K in Wrika World

IU bombed by absolutely every measure and no one is going to dispute that.

 

[Firestorm]

Ok, I see you guys got the top 10s and the top 20. Good. I also have some other stuff I don't see here yet, although not specific games. I'll have it up tomorrow, hopefully.

You write the Edge Online NPD article right? In January, Vesperia LTD to put this argument to rest please. If it hits 100k, I think we can safely call it a success.

http://www.interactive.org/top-ten.php?id=32

September 2008
Overall Top 20 Video Game Titles

1. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (360)
2. Wii Fit (Wii)
3. Rock Band 2 (360)
4. Mario Kart (Wii)
5. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (PS3)
6. Mercenaries 2: World in Flames (360)
7. Wii Play w/ Remote (Wii)
8. Madden NFL 09* (360)
9. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (Wii)
10. Madden NFL 09* (PS2)
11. Madden NFL 09* (PS3)
12. Lego Batman (PS2)
13. Super Mario Sluggers (Wii)
14. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (PS2)
15. Kirby Superstar Ultra (NDS)
16. Mercenaries 2: World in Flames (PS3)
17. NHL 09 (360)
18. Lego Batman (Wii)
19. Lego Batman (360)
20. Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway (360)

Awesome =)

 

[Acid08]

omg sales cum on me.

 

[Hero]

Hurray for Kirby selling well!

 

[Rpgmonkey]

Anyone ever say how Infinite Undiscovery did?

It's above Vesperia apparently in the top 10, so it at least did more than 37K in September, right?

 

[Strike]

Man, this has to be one of the slowest moving NPD threads I've seen in quite a while. Hopefully things will get a little more interesting next month once the big releases start coming in. With all these release dates running on top of each other, something has to bomb. Then the crying begins.....

 

[test_account]

Hurray for Kirby selling well!

How much did it sell? I see that the game is on the 15th place for September NPD, and i guess that is good by itself, but do we have any sale numbers for the game?

 

[Stumpokapow]

How much did it sell? I see that the game is on the 15th place for September NPD, and i guess that is good by itself, but do we have any sale numbers for the game?

We do not have numbers, but 15th place is good from anywhere from 80k to around 150k normally. If we had a SKU breakdown for Lego Batman we'd be able to deduce the numbers a little further.

Anyone ever say how Infinite Undiscovery did?

Exceptionally poorly. Regardless of the absolute numbers, the game has been price-dropped either by SE or just across the board by retailers to $39.99. This represents a game that is not moving anywhere near the sort of stock they were hoping it would move.

 

[dammitmattt]

Clearly you're in your own little world, although I will say it's certainly possible to publish a successful PS3/360 game, it's just easier to do it on Wii.

You lost me on this point. Where in the world did you pull this statement from?

 

[dammitmattt]

:lol you honestly are this stupid.

Next time I'll write SARCASM in big bold letters so you can keep up, okay
So in other words 360 owners can't stand a decent style change away from the usaul drek we see from UE3? Thanks for proving my damn point. After 2 years, after Lost Odyssey which was supposed to bring in the larger overall rpg demographic, after every fucking excuse has been used, the plain fact is rpgs bombing on the 360 is becuase of the 360 owners.

You are the worst kind of poster here. Indignant AND ignorant.

I have a number of points to make here:

1. JRPGs are just not popular in the US. Final Fantasy does well and Lost Odyssey was a mild success, but overall, they just don't sell well. If you want to blame the US audience as a whole, that's fine, but to single out the 360 audience is ridiculous.

2. Tales of Vesperia is on track to outsell the PS2 Tales games despite a MUCH smaller userbase.

3. 360 owners have made a wide variety of games successful, not just shooters. Of the top ten games this month, only two of them are shooters, and only one of them is a UE3 game.

4. There have been plenty of successful RPGs on the 360. Much more so than the PS3 or Wii. Mass Effect and Oblivion were both huge successes with Fable 2 and Fallout 3 to follow in their footsteps this month. Lost Odyssey, Enchanted Arms, Blue Dragon, and a few others were all mild successes.

 

[BishopLamont]

Haha. I knew getting involved with this thread was a bad idea.

Is this how it usually works? I make a claim, get called out, accused of being retarded, caps locks fly like crazy, and then when I substantiate the claim with actual data - illustrating how many of you don't even really have a clue about the actual state of the industry you're talking about - people still feel like they have the right to get all snippy?

Too funny.

As for the rest of the replies, I really don't have the time or interest to go through them point by point, particularly since most of them are just the same points over and over or compounded personal attacks.

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

Nintendo Wii
350 titles generating 30,000,000 unit sales averages to 85,714 copies sold per game.

85,714 copies x $50 = $4,285,714

let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $2,142,857 cash inflow.

If they budget for $1,000,000 in costs, they receive $1,142,857 in profit.

Xbox 360
175 titles generating 27,000,000 unit sales averages to 154,285 copies sold per game.

154,285 copies x $60 = $9,257,142

Let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $4,628,571 cash inflow.

If they budget for $2,000,000 in costs, they receive $2,628,571 in profit.

Feel free to adjust these numbers however you wish in terms of what percentage the publisher receives of gross revenue, or what percentage of revenue the budgets of these games should be. It will not change the fundamental conclusion.

Obviously many publishers invest significantly more into their development costs. Either these are the companies that are simultaneously projecting higher revenues and unit sales, or they are failed businesses that will not survive. That's just life.

The point is that it is *possible* for a company to achieve higher profits, even with double the costs, on one alternative investment to the other. And the reason for that is higher revenues. Hardly irrelevant.

If you go back through my posts, you'll see that these are the same claims I have made all along.

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Have fun.

I don't see how a chart showing third parties selling more on the Wii can constitute as "lies". You can complain as much as you want, but you can't prove anything.

 

[Paracelsus]

2. Tales of Vesperia is on track to outsell the PS2 Tales games

This sounds like the same identical spin that was used into the Media-Create thread some week ago.

"It sold 140k on a small userbase. It is indeed a success".

The fact it will eventually outsell the PS2 Tales of in the States doesn't make it any less bomba. A bomba + a bunch more copies sold = still a bomba.

And the PS2 Tales bombed only in the US, in Japan got strong sales, didn't even need the Europe to break the 500k point.

 

[gtj1092]

This sounds like the same identical spin that was used into the Media-Create thread some week ago.

"It sold 140k on a small userbase. It is indeed a success".

The fact it will eventually outsell the PS2 Tales of in the States doesn't make it any less bomba. A bomba + a bunch more copies sold = still a bomba.

And the PS2 Tales bombed only in the US, in Japan got strong sales, didn't even need the Europe to break the 500k point.

Only Ps3 games bomb.

 

[schuelma]

And the PS2 Tales bombed only in the US, in Japan got strong sales, didn't even need the Europe to break the 500k point.

Yes, and that's what is troubling about Vesperia- because of the poor Japan sales Namco needed it to do better in the U.S

But that still is an entirely different argument than saying it's a "bomb" in the U.S relative to past entries- it clearly isn't.

 

[WrikaWrek]

:lol you honestly are this stupid.

Next time I'll write SARCASM in big bold letters so you can keep up, okay
So in other words 360 owners can't stand a decent style change away from the usaul drek we see from UE3? Thanks for proving my damn point. After 2 years, after Lost Odyssey which was supposed to bring in the larger overall rpg demographic, after every fucking excuse has been used, the plain fact is rpgs bombing on the 360 is becuase of the 360 owners.

Can't wait to see Infinite Undiscovery. Less of a "kiddy" art style, much more ads, It should do well over 500K in Wrika World

U3? You came to that? Look, you call me stupid, and that's enough to stop this discussion. You are full of double standards, you are an hypocrite with your arguments, and since you can't write worth shit you blame others for not getting your "ain't worth a shit" arguments.

I would tell you to go fuck yourself after your constant efforts of trying to depict anyone who discusses with you into a moron, but i won't.

Your whole definition of different art style, RPGs, the 360 userbase, is all fucked up and if i keep arguing with you i'll be here the whole week.

And yeah, hey Star Wars Force Unleashed is breaking records on the Wii, oh man, action games are just doing awesome with that userbase. Oh riiiight, they aren't good games, or they don't have exclusive marketing, or whatever BS you come up with next.

Have a nice day.

 

[gtj1092]

Yes, and that's what is troubling about Vesperia- because of the poor Japan sales Namco needed it to do better in the U.S

But that still is an entirely different argument than saying it's a "bomb" in the U.S relative to past entries- it clearly isn't.

So it was just as much as a bomb as the others? So in the end it is a bomb. If this was released on Ps3 the defenders wouldn't be having this argument it would be labeled a bomb and "the year of the Ps3" jokes would be rampant. The game bombed plain and simple.


I'd argue it is even more of bomb than the previous releases because the reason it was put on 360 was the idea that the lower japanese sales would be made up by western sales. But now they are just left with a game that bombed in three territories.

 

[Pureauthor]

The argument over Vesperia can be played a number of ways, like whether it's a bomb relative to prior Tales games, whether it's a bomb relative to Namco's specific expectations for this title, whether it's a bomb in the end because it failed to bail out the straggling Japanese sales...

I believe that Namco isn't happy with Vesperia's overall WW performance.

 

[Jocchan]

You guys are idiots. [...]

Yes you did you dumb piece of shit. [...]

That is pretty clear, and pretty stupid

You guys are so stupid

ha ha ha go fuck yourself

:lol you are so full of shit

I know you have your head far up Obama's ass but you really can't be that stupid. [...]

How many people were there?
How many people were drunk?
Why do you think we would believe your bullshit?

*slaps forehead*

It's called sarcasm chief. Are you feigning stupidity?

:lol you honestly are this stupid.

Next time I'll write SARCASM in big bold letters so you can keep up, okay [...]

Looks like someone likes calling names, and I didn't even need to dig much.
Congrats, sir. Way to respect the people you're speaking to.

 

[Stumpokapow]

This sounds like the same identical spin that was used into the Media-Create thread some week ago.

"It sold 140k on a small userbase. It is indeed a success".

The fact it will eventually outsell the PS2 Tales of in the States doesn't make it any less bomba. A bomba + a bunch more copies sold = still a bomba.

They continue to localize console Tales games. This game was localized by the same group that localized the PS2 Tales games, and thus likely had approximately similar localization costs. This is on track to outsell the PS2 games. Price has not begun to drop yet, suggesting sales are in-line with retailer expectations based on orders.

Where's the bomb?

I mean, you might say that Japanese sales were lower than expected (whether as the result of the platform change or just general series decline or whatever), or even that US sales weren't sufficiently high enough to bail out Japanese sales, but I'm not sure how it's considered a bomb in the US based on franchise history and their continued localization decisions.

 

[markatisu]

They continue to localize console Tales games. This game was localized by the same group that localized the PS2 Tales games, and thus likely had approximately similar localization costs. This is on track to outsell the PS2 games. Price has not begun to drop yet, suggesting sales are in-line with retailer expectations based on orders.

Where's the bomb?

I mean, you might say that Japanese sales were lower than expected (whether as the result of the platform change or just general series decline or whatever), but I'm not sure how it's considered a bomb in the US based on franchise history and their continued localization decisions.

I have a question, if ToS2 "bombs" on Wii (sells like 30k or something) would it be considered to fall in line with the other Tales games and therefore expected, or because it was a sequel to a 400k-ish game would it considered a huge failure?

 

[beef3483]

Looks like someone likes calling names, and I didn't even need to dig much.
Congrats, sir. Way to respect the people you're speaking to.

Wow. I've been banned for saying less.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Looks like someone likes calling names, and I didn't even need to dig much.
Congrats, sir. Way to respect the people you're speaking to.

Well, at least there is ONE meltdown this NPD month.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Haha. I knew getting involved with this thread was a bad idea.

Is this how it usually works? I make a claim, get called out, accused of being retarded, caps locks fly like crazy, and then when I substantiate the claim with actual data - illustrating how many of you don't even really have a clue about the actual state of the industry you're talking about - people still feel like they have the right to get all snippy?

Too funny.

As for the rest of the replies, I really don't have the time or interest to go through them point by point, particularly since most of them are just the same points over and over or compounded personal attacks.

I had assumed that everyone would be able to connect the dots as soon as I posted those numbers to back up my initial point, but here's the cheat sheet in case it's still not clear.

Nintendo Wii
350 titles generating 30,000,000 unit sales averages to 85,714 copies sold per game.

85,714 copies x $50 = $4,285,714

let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $2,142,857 cash inflow.

If they budget for $1,000,000 in costs, they receive $1,142,857 in profit.

Xbox 360
175 titles generating 27,000,000 unit sales averages to 154,285 copies sold per game.

154,285 copies x $60 = $9,257,142

Let's assume the publisher receives a highly conservative 50% of gross revenue, leaving them with $4,628,571 cash inflow.

If they budget for $2,000,000 in costs, they receive $2,628,571 in profit.

Feel free to adjust these numbers however you wish in terms of what percentage the publisher receives of gross revenue, or what percentage of revenue the budgets of these games should be. It will not change the fundamental conclusion.

Obviously many publishers invest significantly more into their development costs. Either these are the companies that are simultaneously projecting higher revenues and unit sales, or they are failed businesses that will not survive. That's just life.

The point is that it is *possible* for a company to achieve higher profits, even with double the costs, on one alternative investment to the other. And the reason for that is higher revenues. Hardly irrelevant.

If you go back through my posts, you'll see that these are the same claims I have made all along.

Nintendo, as with any company, will pick and choose statistics to show that paint their company and personal interests in a more favorable light. The trick to remember is that it's often what isn't said that is more important than what is. Lies, damn lies, and statistics indeed.

Have fun.

Wii Dev Kits are ten times cheaper (probably less now) than the PS3, and I assume 360 is closer to the PS3 end of the spectrum than Wii. Source

Also, developing in HD is a lot more expensive than merely double. I don't have exact figures, but it is more than that. (Speaking only of mid-range titles like... Deadly Creatures vs. Blue Dragon, or somesuch.)