• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Paul Tassi: I’m not some Bethesda or Xbox superfan obviously, there hasn’t been a game I’ve wanted to “defend” like Starfield in a long time

Variahunter

Member
That is the problem with modern gaming.
Some companies are stuck in the past and are unwilling to take the leap to the next level.

Then there is the early game issues, which companies fix the game later.

Starfield problem is that it has outdated engine which is holding the game back alot.
The game has too much potential, but because the engine is old, Bethesda can't utilize all those potential.

Seamless world is hard. Vehicle engine is nightmare on creation engine. Bigger maps is hard, because the engine can't hold 2 cells together.

They seriously need to get rid of that shit engine. But because Bethesda is stuck in the past, they don't want to do that. And that is the main issue here. They want to die on that engine and don't want to move forward like other devs.
I don't think it's specifically the engine, though it is a factor.

I'm more inclined to say it's the Series S limited amount and bandwith of ram.

They had to scope the game down to the specs of Series S. And of course with limited ram, you are limited with the amount of assets you can load in an area, hence why those areas feels empty and rather on the small side (compared to the scope of a planet of course). I guess, the number of interactive items/objects and the way the engine handles them is also a factor. Thus we still have a lot of loadings and caves/factories are most of the time locked behind a loading.

Nowadays there should be zero limitations like these, their previous games (FO4, Skyrim) have been modded to make everything seamless, so it's not hardware limited. The engine is also made this way.
 
Last edited:

feynoob

Banned
I don't think it's specifically the engine, though it is a factor.

I'm more inclined to say it's the Series S limited amount and bandwith of ram.

They had to scope the game down to the specs of Series S. And of course with limited ram, you are limited with the amount of assets you can load in an area, hence why those areas feels empty and rather on the small side (compared to the scope of a planet of course). I guess, the number of interactive items/objects and the way the engine handles them is also a factor. Thus we still have a lot of loadings and caves/factories are most of the time locked behind a loading.

Nowadays there should be zero limitations like these, their previous games (FO4, Skyrim) have been modded to make everything seamless, so it's not hardware limited. The engine is also made this way.
Its not XSS. That is just a myth.
The engine is an old relic and these issues have been part of that engine for a long time.

The loading part is the result of bethesda dividing the cells, because they cant connect to each other.
 

Zuzu

Member
I wonder why they can’t engineer a way to have the cells stream one into another without loading screens (or a lot less of them) so at least the world could be more seamless?
 

feynoob

Banned
I wonder why they can’t engineer a way to have the cells stream one into another without loading screens (or a lot less of them) so at least the world could be more seamless?
It's mainly due to gamebryo being present in creation engine 1 and 2.
Creation Engine is a 3D video game engine created by Bethesda Game Studios based on the Gamebryo engine. The Creation Engine has been used to create role-playing video games such as The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Fallout 4, and Fallout 76. A new iteration of the engine, Creation Engine 2, was used to create Starfield.

After using the Gamebryo engine to create The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and Fallout 3, Bethesda decided that Gamebryo's capabilities were becoming too outdated and began work on the Creation Engine for their next game, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, by forking the codebase used for Fallout 3.

They never made a new engine. Just an upgrade of the old engine. This meant tons of issues from the old gen. It's why their games are buggy as hell. Each object has a cell and can't combine them together. Hence why there is tons of loading screens.
 

mejin

Member
images
 

ByWatterson

Member
I don't think it's specifically the engine, though it is a factor.

I'm more inclined to say it's the Series S limited amount and bandwith of ram.

They had to scope the game down to the specs of Series S. And of course with limited ram, you are limited with the amount of assets you can load in an area, hence why those areas feels empty and rather on the small side (compared to the scope of a planet of course). I guess, the number of interactive items/objects and the way the engine handles them is also a factor. Thus we still have a lot of loadings and caves/factories are most of the time locked behind a loading.

Nowadays there should be zero limitations like these, their previous games (FO4, Skyrim) have been modded to make everything seamless, so it's not hardware limited. The engine is also made this way.

If it can run No Man's Sky it can run a better version of Starfield.

Bethesda just didn't want to make it.
 
Except. . .they haven't evolved. Like at all. This isn't a vague and unfair criticism, it is right there in the game. Literally none of the stuff Bethesda is good at has evolved in any kind of meaningful way with SF. At worst, they have gone backwards in some areas. In my playthrough there was zero meaningful impact of my background or character I had built on the world around me; nothing reacted to my choices in the game. Contrast with BG3 where literal areas (and of course entire questlines) will shift around the decisions you've made both narratively and personally.

Speaking of player agency, companions in this are the worst they've ever been with most companions (really all of them) expecting the player to play a certain way. For a game that's all about "be whom you want to be" there sure does feel like a malus is being put on the player for doing so. This of course ignores that they are all incredibly boring (I dare you to suffer through Sam Coe and his Daughter the entire game like I did because Sam has some pretty good ship skills) and paper thin. They're all just tropes because that's all Emil and Co. know how to write. This extends to the narrative overall; Bethesda sure loves brown and green, but the one color they refuse to play with is "grey." Everything is so on the nose and sterile in this game - it's all exactly what you would expect with zero surprises (I challenge you to be surprised on the big narrative moments in this game; I'm dumb as rocks when it comes to twists but I saw this one coming a country mile away).

Or what about the actual gameplay? Take settlements, first introduced in FO4, then exploderated in FO76 and somehow, even with the modding community showing exactly what people want, reverts back to FO4, but in pre-alpha. How in the world did they botch such an easy "time waster" activity? Your game is literally about exploration and discovery but there's no incentive to build out mankind to do so? They could have gone all in on the outpost system, to give players a reason to bother with their empty, flat and boring procgen planets - but nope. There's literally no reason to engage with the outpost system whatsoever outside of your desire to create and build. Like I was completely ready to do so, even with the narrative shortcomings, until I saw just basic design missing from this system (you can't "draw" from all storage in your base, literally a feature that they had in FO4's base game; there's no way to favorite outposts, so the already cumbersome fast-traveling is made more so when hopping between outposts you are building out; you can't break down items into their "base" resource, so you'll have a dozen or so "Sealant" from various sources, instead of just the one; quick looting doesn't actually sort by name what they contain so if you're scrounging for one resource - you can't single target resources in this by the by, another feature that was there eight years ago - good luck doing it in an efficient manner, etc.) that would make any meaningful engagement with it a miserable experience - even if there was any real reason to use it, which there isn't.

This general sense of "well enough" applies to most every other game system in this from ship combat to crafting to. . .everything. Like, this isn't the worst game ever, but this need for game journos to not only play quarterback for SF during the pre-embargo, to now - where the game is trending down the "Mostly Positive" ramp on Steam - post-release with "gamers" finally getting their say, is so bizarre. It is just wild.

. . .the constant refrain from journos is the sameness of the AAA-gaming space, and along comes the exact same Bethesda game you've played before and hoped they'd improve upon and now this is the game that needs journos jumping on Twitter to explain why "awkshully, SF is exactly the grand space opera Bethesda was making it out to be."

They have’t evolved like fighting games haven’t evolved. Really, everyone shut up before Bethesda feel forced to switch to UE5 and entire lineage of masterpiece questing games just disappears.

Just move on. Your criticism ends great things. It is the same group think that took down CRPGs. Then, a single game decades later reminds people what they negged into oblivion for the sake of progress.

Go ahead and play something better if it even exists. I enjoy passionate designers who try something new in their lane.
 

Metnut

Member
Tassi is a solid writer but I have little respect for him as a gamer. He mostly enjoys playing loot shooters which means I can dismiss anything that he says.
 

Variahunter

Member
Its not XSS. That is just a myth.
The engine is an old relic and these issues have been part of that engine for a long time.

The loading part is the result of bethesda dividing the cells, because they cant connect to each other.
Explain then, why the engine is the only factor here, you seem to know your subject.
 

Neff

Member
The game is good and generally well-received, why it needs a defender? Lol

There's a LOT of people trying to convince themselves that
a) Starfield sucks, or
b) Skyrim/Fallout always sucked anyway

Fact is, if you liked Fallout or Skyrim, odds are you'll like Starfield because it's literally the same game with a different setting and dramatically increased scope/ambition. But the grapes need to be confirmed 100% sour before some folks can sleep at night.
 

Ozzie666

Member
After playing the game for sometime on gamepass, It's clear the game is held back by the old out dated engine and constrained by old design choices. Todd really over sold this game much like No Mans Sky when it first came out. I now understand the Todd lies memes now. They should just stop talking and let the game speak for itself, there is a solid fun game here. It's not a 10/10 game, it's not Zelda, it's not Baldurs and it doesn't have to be. It's a Bethesa game through and through for better or for worse with too much hype to save the xbox brand. Not a hill worth dying on.
 
Last edited:
Agree with this guy. It's a brand new experience. Brand new game with brand new mechanics. That's why people are having difficulty in grasping all the mechanics.

If it was Skyrim or Fallout, I would be half way through it already.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member


I feel the same😣:goog_face_savoring_food::messenger_pouting::messenger_moon:

“It’s not that I think the critics are wrong, it’s just that the game is a comfort food and I see no problem why one of the largest new IPs in recent times made by a developer owned by one of the largest corporations in the world and with a reported 400mln budget wouldn’t push the envelope of what is possible in gaming and maybe even use a different engine than the one made 20 years ago”.

GIF by Steve Harvey TV
 
The online convo around starfield is very odd and only exist because of two reviews really...outside of that people either love it or like it...I think the better conversation is if a game that is a slow burn still should exist in the industy. I think so...starfield ask for your time and rewards you for it, but you have to put in a solid amount of time for it to take off really.
 

Embearded

Member
Some negative comments are valid, others are just from Sony fanboys. It's the oldest story in video games communities and it will never end.

From what i've seen so far it's at least OK. Like every other game it has problems but at least it is playable.
Having said that, i wait for the day i see a game from Bethesda and i won't recognize it from the NPC animations alone...
 

StueyDuck

Member
Yeah

Microsoft and Bethesda don't need anyone to defend them.

The game has issues and those issues deserve a light shone on them.

Sounds more like the dudes been brainwashed. I understand defending why you like/love the game (which isn't really defending, it's just opinion)

Maybe it's me but this manufactured Microsoft marketing is getting their drones to do a helluva lot of gas lighting lately.
 

Braag

Member
I don't think there's been a game that warrants a playthrough like Starfield does in the last few years, considering 70% of discussion in GAF is about that game.
Alas I'm too busy with BG3 but will get to it eventually.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Yeah

Microsoft and Bethesda don't need anyone to defend them.

The game has issues and those issues deserve a light shone on them.

Sounds more like the dudes been brainwashed. I understand defending why you like/love the game (which isn't really defending, it's just opinion)

Maybe it's me but this manufactured Microsoft marketing is getting their drones to do a helluva lot of gas lighting lately.
"Evangelists"
 

Robb

Gold Member
I’m not sure if ‘stuck in the past’ is the right words, but it does feel very much like a game made for Bethesda fans with the inclusion of some additional strange/poor design decisions.

Their games have a very distinct style/feel.
 
Last edited:
The game should speak for itself and these sort of comments wouldn’t be necessary. It was under pressure due to what has been going on with Xbox first party and some people were pushing it to be more than what it is because of that.

Admittedly I’ve only spent a few hours with it and I can’t say I’m impressed so far, either from a story/character perspective and a technical level. Said it yesterday, Xbox isn’t giving me that game or games that blow me away, that “oh my this is good” and that “I can’t wait to get home and play this again” feeling and I want them to, as a Xbox guy it’s in my interest for them to deliver that.

I’m getting really tired of the shills and the circle jerk around the likes of Spencer and other execs too, it doesn’t help at all. How the hell do you expect things to dramatically change for the better if he’s listening to people who tell him and his teams exactly what they want to hear and anything below that is branded as hate or being a Sony zealot.
 
Last edited:

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
They have’t evolved like fighting ga -

Yeah, lemme stop you right there. "All thieves steal" is not an argument for being able to steal. Bethesda and MS themselves have been touting SF as an evolution of their game design and they haven't. Full stop. This isn't subjective it is literally measurable in what is missing from the game systems or in how they approach storytelling. This isn't value judgement (though I think the game is middling at best) but an acknowledgement that the innovations we were promised, simply aren't there.

. . .and I did play something better before this game. Which is why a lot of folks are having their "this is it?" moment with the game.

Agree with this guy. It's a brand new experience. Brand new game with brand new mechanics. That's why people are having difficulty in grasping all the mechanics.

If it was Skyrim or Fallout, I would be half way through it already.

What new mechanics has SF brought to the table from previous Bethesda titles?
 

Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
You can be into games like Starfeid, but you shouldn't have to defend it. Because what people are saying about the game, is true, and it's not bad. Its a Bethesda game. It's kinda like we all know what to expect if we hear Housemarqe is making a game, or that Naughty Dog is making a game...etc.

The issue with Starfeid is that while it's a Bethesda game, it's an unevolved Bethesda game. It's like what Bethesda would have made in 2013 if they had current-gen hardware. It's like paying elder scrolls in space. But even less open because it uses a weird illusion of an open world.

All that doesn't make the game bad, it just makes it very far from what they seem to have wanted everyone to think it was going to be. Guess thats why people lie you feel it needs to be defended.
Are you playing the game yourself? Genuine question. Alot of people are giving their thoughts on the game and haven't even seen the splash screen in real time.

The game is a marvel. Truly nothing like it out there. It's literally staggering how much stuff its doing and looks good doing it, too.
 
What new mechanics has SF brought to the table from previous Bethesda titles?

Procedural generation plenty of planet surface that looks beautiful, ship building, ship piloting, scanning resources and wildlife, outpost building, jet packs, brand new skill tree ....

BTW I have not finished the game, will likely find more stuff.

Game has a huge challenge of keeping a decent pacing while offering tons of planets to explore, something I feel they have done decently.

On top they have another part of game where you can just land on a planet, take in beautiful scenery, scan resources/ wildlife. I am doing that only in game so far.

On top you have shipbuilding/ base building mechanics that will run you 10s of hours if not more.

There are games within games withing games in this one.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Why do people act like Bethesda have to reinvent the wheel with each release when nobody else makes games like they do?

Will Spiderman 2 have the same commentary levelled at it when it's just the same game you played back when the first one launched?
Is Spider-Man 2 being hailed as the "next great exclusive that will propel PlayStation to some astronomical height"?

This is why things get mocked, overhype and pointless comparisons like these.
 
Last edited:

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Procedural generation plenty of planet surface that looks beautiful, ship building, ship piloting, scanning resources and wildlife, outpost building, jet packs, brand new skill tree ....

First, outpost building - a clear area of the game that absolutely is a de-evolution from their previous two titles - is not new to SF. Second, why are you're describing gameplay activities (and some that are just naturally a part of a "space game") - we're talking about actual game mechanics. "Jet packs" is not a game mechanic. A "new skill tree" (and not a new way of doing character progression - this is still the PERK system) in a new game is not a new game mechanic.

. . .this is entire thread is essentially: how has Bethesda improved on their craft since Morrowind? I think the most supported response is, they haven't (at least not meaningfully). Contrast a studio like LARIAN who have, from DOS1 to BG3, substantially improved their storytelling and player agency abilities; what in SF demonstrates that Bethesda have improved in ANY core game design competency? There's literally one choice of any consequence in SF and it has zero impact on the thrust of the actual story. . .in a game about players discovering their own adventure. Like sure, Bethesda can throw in a bunch of new activities to do in the game (hey we've got a new lockpicking system that will replace lockpicking and hacking and somehow be more irritating), but that doesn't mean they've improved on their ability to execute.
 
Top Bottom