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Phil Spencer admits defeat in console space, and doesn't think great games would help Xbox's market share.
- Thread starter FunkMiller
- Start date
killatopak
Gold Member
It would either mean he is giving up competing on the console space and are targetting PC and Cloud or he still wants to compete on consoles but don't see a way out even with great games which is defeatist.
The first one is in sight of the CMA and the other just means that any effort is meaningless then why put an effort at all. Couple that with the recent redfall and you can see why this notion comes up.
Zannegan
Member
Is this honestly how you read his quote?
He's not saying they aren't out to make great games, just thet great games alone aren't enough to cause some massive shift in marketshare.
I'm not saying I agree with his statement, for the record (especially at the start of the generation, when you really have a chance to convince the uninvested to buy in), but the number of bad reads in here is baffling. Maybe it's the thread title biasing people to hear it one way?
El Pistolero
Banned
I have no intention of crucifying Phil, nor should I, but I am perpelxed by what was said, and the timing of it. Is it part of their PR campaign to have the ABK deal approved? Does he sound so down because he is on his way out, whether by choice or because of the lack of results? I agree however that MS destroyed their goodwill at a most crticial junction (last gen), though the words strike me as yet another attempt to put the blame for everything on Don Mattrick...
Off to reading the other posts, either instructive or funny; One of the reasons I like this community...
Off to reading the other posts, either instructive or funny; One of the reasons I like this community...
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Eotheod
Member
The Switch was a great move by Nintendo to consolidate their libraries into the digital age, albeit clearly a whole generation behind the competition. Nintendo knows that building your digital library up is what will keep your customers interested in the platform, with good games playing a part in that growth. This is how these console generations run now, and how PC has been running for years. Why do you think EGS did fuck all to Steam? Hint: it wasn't the Sweeney lies and dev pay ratio.
Nintendo is experiencing success because they have that combo now of Nintendo quality console with Nintendo quality games. It is why they will never drop the "Switch" brand going forward and why they will continue to offer hardware utilising cartridges as the delivery method (or future iterations allowing physical BC). Because the library is what counts to the consumer and what stops them from switching platforms now. It is why I don't go back to PlayStation, because I will have lost countless titles I already own on Xbox and would have to repurchase.
This is what Microsoft is struggling with, competing with consumers who have a plethora of digital titles on the other consoles and don't want to give them up. Hence why Game Pass is a service that attempts to provide a HUGE range of games with a low price, because they want people to jump ship and not feel like they lost too much. By offering big titles on the service, it is an even bigger encouragement to those contemplating by saying "it's okay, you won't lose everything." Why do you think PlayStation has cloned that?
There are plenty of arguments and reasoning to current performing Microsoft/Xbox, and some will be correct while others will be console warrior armchair logic. What we know right now is the industry is incredibly different to the last generation, and even more so the generations before. Those calling for Xbox to be this "alpha male" gamer dude brand like it used to be is impossible, and will never happen again. The industry has shifted, for better not worse, in being more creative and open to new concepts rather than churning the same content out. Of course, you have AAA titles that stick to their guns, but that's because they can't risk being different else it has the potential to fail and wear a stupidly large bill on their face.
Xbox has been working towards this digital library concept since the 360 I'd say, though it hit that ultimate mindset with the Xbone and its original digital trade concept way back before launch. Digital content "ownership" is the future, and the decider on who goes where. After this generation, I don't think we'll see many significant changes in leaderboard placement. It will be hard to replace those huge libraries without it costing a lot to the consumer, and in this current economic atmosphere, money talks.
Captain Toad
Banned
"I see commentary that if you just build great games, everything would turn around. It's just not true that if we go off and build great games, all of a sudden you're going to see console share shift in some dramatic way."
I'm sorry, this is the LAST thing I want to hear. I don't know how you're reading that or hearing that, but I'm not sure how you can spin it as anything other than the completely wrong mindset for a gaming CEO.
And, yes, I listened to the whole rambling tangent he went off on. There's nothing taken out of context there. That's what he said and clearly thats what he meant. Although, I do expect him to backpedal after he gets pressure from his superiors.
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Zannegan
Member
...but what you're saying is exactly what he says in the video.
He claims that pundits want them to make great games and sieze maretshare, but he doesn't see that as realistic, and it's not their goal. If you watch the video where OP timestamped it, he says their focus is on making the people who have invested in Xbox happy.
I don't believe for a second that they wouldn't sieze the market if they could, btw, but he's at least paying lip service to everything you said.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
XesqueVara
Member
I Think what he's saying is that great games alone can't shift their marketshare btw.
Captain Toad
Banned
I'm pretty sure you are.
Zannegan
Member
I see your point about it being the wrong mindset. You could certainly call it defeatist. But nowhere in there does he say they don't care to make great games, which is what I was responding to.
You're making a different, and far more valid, argument.
bobbyphunk
Neo Member
I really don't care as much as majority of you when it comes to the current state of Xbox other than the games being released on all systems (PS5,PC, Xbox) with so many bugs.
I also didn't realize allot of people in here are Xbox fans and that's pretty cool
So don't be poor along with being grateful that you can basically own all the gaming systems out there so you have variety in your own home to play on or sell if you don't like the current state or direction those systems are going in
Variety people will maybe make you more happy, maybe so, maybe not
I also didn't realize allot of people in here are Xbox fans and that's pretty cool
So don't be poor along with being grateful that you can basically own all the gaming systems out there so you have variety in your own home to play on or sell if you don't like the current state or direction those systems are going in
Variety people will maybe make you more happy, maybe so, maybe not
lastmessiah
Member
You're right, and you know damn well everyone is just twisting his words to fit their agenda so they can have something to discuss while not playing their "amazing" Playstation exclusives lol.
Captain Toad
Banned
And we want our CEO saying that?
"Listen, I know we just released a terrible game that we've been touting as a new pillar for the Xbox brand, but, honestly, it's not a big deal. People are going to stick with their console of choice either way. And for most, that isn't Xbox. Nothing can be done about that."
ArcaneNLSC
Member
Party McHardy
Member
I almost bought an Xbox for that new Battletoads game. If you have the games people want, they’ll buy into your ecosystem, I can’t see it any other way.
Terrible public relations though, wow.
Terrible public relations though, wow.
LegendOfKage
Gold Member
I would argue that's the primary reason for where Xbox now finds themselves today. When you tell existing customers the solution to their legitimate concerns is to buy an inferior product that they already own, you've done yourself a massive disservice. And the fighting early on, and basically dismissing customers who didn't like that as being wrong, it all added up.
Then Sony committed to no always online, and Microsoft reversed course, but it was too late. I was done with Microsoft. I pretty much never post in console wars threads, because I think it's dumb to argue about it, and because MS does have some games that I'd like to play. But that was when they lost me, and I would imagine there are many like "me" that they lost as well.
It's also not just the digital library that stands in the way of owning two consoles. The main issue is paying for online. If that was gone, I'd buy an Xbox tomorrow, especially for access to a lot more cross-play options. It's just not worth it to subscribe to two services that offer much of the same thing.
ArcaneNLSC
Member
So now its Bye-Bye Flush
Captain Toad
Banned
Yeah, it's not that he says they don't want to make good games. But he does sound like he's saying, it isn't THAT big of a deal or that would fix their problems.
No, it is THAT big of a deal and I have no reason to believe with enough great exclusive games, that Xbox couldn't become much more competitive.
That's how gaming has always worked. It worked for Xbox themselves. They got annilahated by the PS2, but with fantastic games, they were toe to toe with Sony the following generation.
I don't buy the, "now everyone only cares about their digital backlog, so it no longer matters" mindset. If you really believe that, you might as well just pack it up and quit.
Eotheod
Member
He's not our CEO. No one is. They are all mega corporations that do it for the shareholders, which if you are a part of then sure he is your CEO. This is why console warring is stupid, its based of emotional one-sided contracts that don't deliver anything but sadness and far less actual gaming.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
To be honest I think MS is full of idiots. To me, MS has always been sitting on a goldmine and is just somehow ignoring what their true strengths are.
If I were MS, this is what I would do,
- Xbox, would be an extremely stripped-down, gaming-focused, highly optimized version of Windows. the same way we have Windows server. Windows gaming would just be called Xbox or Windows Xbox. And it would be a version of Windows that can be installed on any PC hardware just like Windows currently is.
- In this Xbox OS, MS should build in specific specialized system-wide features, like built-in reconstruction, VRR, and automated performance profiles that auto-adjust to the hardware its installed on, global save... the works.
- Obviously, they should have their own MS store, that allows them to sell games at PC prices, complete with gamepass of course. But the killer app it the store, is that you use gamepass to make people prefer shopping on your store than on the Steam store. They still have their exclusives, but no those exclusives will only be available on gamepass and as such the Xbox OS store.
- And then lasty, they should make an Xbox `surface`. Which would basically be a highly upgradeable Xbox console. Think something like NZXT H1 case but with a motherboard, PSU and your choice of intel or AMD CPU. And MS can get their own range of built-for Xbox CPUs and GPUs which basically means they have specialized drivers that locks them to only the xboxOS which would allow MS be able to subsidize their prices. But you can just as easily also install off-the-shelf CPUs and GPUs.
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DeepSpace5D
Member
That quote about Starfield could be an 11/10 and it’s not going to get people to sell their PS5s is a misguided way of thinking imo.
It’s not about getting people to want to sell a console they already own. It’s about making your platform undeniable as well with system-selling content. That way consumers are faced with a more difficult buying decision if they have to choose one or the other.
It’s not about getting people to want to sell a console they already own. It’s about making your platform undeniable as well with system-selling content. That way consumers are faced with a more difficult buying decision if they have to choose one or the other.
Phil has a catalog of amazing ip. Yet he can't get his teams to get together and make great games. The last great time of Xbox was 2007
Mochilador
Member
Same here. How the hell people are reading this like "why make good games? we are not gonna turn the tables anyway".
He's explaining that it isn't enough, they need to do their own thing to stand up.
Crayon
Member
This whole thing has been distracting me all day. Was just a shock to hear first thing in the morning. I saw the thread title and thought one of you was fucking around.
After chewing on it over the course of the day, I still can't settle on what to think about it. On one end, it seems like that this could be just a massive foot in mouth. On the other, it's like he could be doing it on purpose and softening up the fanbase for something. I even listened to the whole thing to get a better idea of his state and it was hard to tell.
After chewing on it over the course of the day, I still can't settle on what to think about it. On one end, it seems like that this could be just a massive foot in mouth. On the other, it's like he could be doing it on purpose and softening up the fanbase for something. I even listened to the whole thing to get a better idea of his state and it was hard to tell.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Man, half of your recent post history is copy pasting this same image, it has nothing to do with this topic or what Phil said
kimcorecoba
Neo Member
I don't know but if I had to choose between the console that has proven that they can have games on their consoles, two generations in a row vrs the console that sort of gave up in its first showing, I would choose the former easily even if they were messing up. Why? Because I know they are capable of delivering the goods, not because I love them. Honestly, the Xbox 360 did very well considering. Sony's late gen showing made the decision even clearer but then the xbox had gained market share as well and was poised for last gen, the Da Don happened. People keep hoping Xbox will be back to 360 days but it's all talk show now. I love the xbox so this makes me sad.Sony was always on track to outsell the Xbox in that generation, from the day the PS3 launched. Even launching at $600 or whatever and having bad games and a system that third parties struggled with. You’re just proving his point here. They were also coming off the PS2 which sold over 100,000,000 IIRC. Actually just looked it up, sold almost 160,000,000Yeah go ahead and compare Xbox to that.
Again, he’s not saying they aren’t trying to make great games. He’s not saying they need to try and outsell Sony and since they can’t, what’s the point. He’s saying a string of great titles wouldn’t make them the #1 console and he’s right, it wouldn’t. They simply don’t have the worldwide brand the others do. Now, we can talk all day and night about WHY they don’t, about mistakes made in every single generation, but it doesn’t matter in context of what he said. And he even admits this is all on them, so we don’t have to even talk about why.
This is not a zero-sum game. Phil does not need to remove market share from Playstation in order to gain market share of their own, aka, he does not need to take away games from PlayStation. Xbox has probably a base of 50M-60M last generation and that will also be the same for this generation. They can increase that by creating excitement in their system.
Sony did not take away CoD or any game of that importance from xbox to gain 120M players on PS4 from 80M on PS3.
He is the problem then.
Sony did not take away CoD or any game of that importance from xbox to gain 120M players on PS4 from 80M on PS3.
Nope this is the 1st time I posted this oneMan, half of your recent post history is copy pasting this same image, it has nothing to do with this topic or what Phil said
ComputerBlue
Member
Has it though?
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
That’s the most bat shit and idiotic thing I’ve read in the gaming industry ever. This includes watching the infamous Konami E3.
So does he think Hulu,Netflix, AppleTV+, etc wouldn’t get subscribers without exclusive content ? I reup to these things anytime a show I want us on one of them. I also don’t cancel my HBOMax because I consume movies there.
If he really thinks if their portfolio for the last 5 years didn’t look like this:
New great Halo
Exclusive Doom game
Starfield
Fable
Gears Remake
Banjo Kazooie 3
Exclusive Dragon Quest for a year
Exclusive Monster Hunter for a year
Only console to play WoW on
If their library looked like a made up one above let’s say , without gamepass, and delayed PC support, you can bet your ass I’d have a Xbox. You can bet it would be head to head with Sony, maybe not Nintendo.
I’m changing my vote in the other thread. Fuck this guy.
So does he think Hulu,Netflix, AppleTV+, etc wouldn’t get subscribers without exclusive content ? I reup to these things anytime a show I want us on one of them. I also don’t cancel my HBOMax because I consume movies there.
If he really thinks if their portfolio for the last 5 years didn’t look like this:
New great Halo
Exclusive Doom game
Starfield
Fable
Gears Remake
Banjo Kazooie 3
Exclusive Dragon Quest for a year
Exclusive Monster Hunter for a year
Only console to play WoW on
If their library looked like a made up one above let’s say , without gamepass, and delayed PC support, you can bet your ass I’d have a Xbox. You can bet it would be head to head with Sony, maybe not Nintendo.
I’m changing my vote in the other thread. Fuck this guy.
reinking
Gold Member
I am with you. Unfortunately, I feel like this is Phil's "Stolar moment" when he declared “The Saturn is not our future."
I do believe I understand what he meant and that he was being honest. I just do not see where it benefits him or Microsoft to say it at this time. They just had a flop release on the console/Game Pass and the timing of this sounds like, "we knew it wasn't great but we didn't care because even it if was good it would not have mattered." I am not sure it helps with the current acquisition attempt because the CMA blocked it over cloud gaming. How does what he said help the CMA change their position?
Just a really weird vibe from him today.
I agree with this.
This part would have been a good time to talk about stock issues, sales vs the XBO or 360. And Phil didnt do that.
He immediately went to we cant compete, outconsole Sony and Nintendo.
Benji says alot of what we're saying: Nintendo going from the Wii U to the Switch. That was a comeback for the ages. The fact that the Switch came out around the time of the One X is even wilder.
Exactly....thats the point.
Some of us said right before the Switch launched, dont look for multi platform games, look for 3rd party Switch exclusives.
Even tho there have been some ports the Switch exclusives, first or 3rd party, is where that system shines.
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SoraNoKuni
Member
His mindset about games is wrong in regards with the gaming world, pretty sure he is laser focused on the service that he just started checklisting names of games and not supervise quality.
I feel bad for him tbh, the Xbox team in general sound incompetent, there is no world where Phil has to do everything, the problem is more systematic and at Microsoft's ideology/philosophy, probably, still he has to go, it's about time.
Maybe some old/retired from Sony folks would like to take the helm..
I feel bad for him tbh, the Xbox team in general sound incompetent, there is no world where Phil has to do everything, the problem is more systematic and at Microsoft's ideology/philosophy, probably, still he has to go, it's about time.
Maybe some old/retired from Sony folks would like to take the helm..
ComputerBlue
Member
Orange box, assassin‘s creed and modern warfare also released on PlayStation that year so I don’t know why you included them on that list.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Exactly.
It comes across as a coping mechanism for all his first party failures -- we can't win at games so we need to try other business models instead. This shows how COMPLETELY OUT OF TOUCH he is. Gaming is the FOUNDATION for which ALL of his business models revolve around. Why would somebody want to sign up for GamePass, either on console or PC? Why would somebody want to stream through xCloud? IT IS TO PLAY GAMES! This should be completely obvious. Let's forget about whether consoles are important or not, that's irrelevant.
The reality is that Phil Spencer is NOT going to solve his Xbox problem through new business models. GamePass is great. xCloud is great. But you aren't going to be able to improve your situation through those mechanisms alone. Stadia was probably THE BEST cloud service by far and yet they learned a hard lesson that, gee wiz, games actually matter. This is something that as a Tech Company, where the main focus is enabling new business models especially for a company like Microsoft, you sort of lose the plot it you try and apply that same line of thinking to gaming. It just doesn't work. Your consumers are not businesses buying office software. Your consumers are those playing games. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT and shifts the priorities from seeing gaming as a tech enabled business to entertainment, and the entertainment mindset is absolutely crucial. You can't win your way to the hearts of consumers that want to play games by just bundling stuff together. Time is limited. If the games on offer aren't compelling, many won't even play them. As a gamer, I could give a rats ass about something like GamePass or xCloud if what all I really want to do is play Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom. The fact that I have to pay $70 for a single title IS NOT some major hurdle for content I care deeply about enjoying over the course of potentially hundreds of hours.
So to summarize all of this, the defeatist claim that Phil Spencer is making that "well, you know, making great games wouldn't have changed our situation anyways" is not only categorically false (as proven numerous times throughout gaming history where platforms that failed to deliver games floundered only to be redeemed on a subsequent generation when they introduced more appealing content), but it also signals to me that if you have this sort of perspective at the executive level then HIS PRIORITIES ARE CLEARLY NOT ABOUT DELIVERING GREAT GAMES. He's trying to find any other way he can to supposedly compete (GamePass, xCloud, Keystone, whatever) because the GAMES situation to him is NOT a priority for his Xbox strategy.
The idea that having 11/10 caliber titles year in and year out like Sony and Nintendo have WON'T CHANGE THEIR position is totally nonsense. We've seen what it can do to Sony and Nintendo consoles. The cost of an Xbox isn't a major hurdle as a secondary console, but he's giving consumers no reason to pick one up at all. He shouldn't be focused on trying to get PS5 gamers to switch, he should be trying to convince any consumer just to buy into the Xbox ecosystem at all, and maybe if he's successful over time he does cause some gamers to have more engagement on their platform as they enter their business model strategy.
Microsoft isn't limited by what Sony or Nintendo do. If Sony and Nintendo are at the top of their game they will sell 120 - 150M consoles and over a billion in software. Just because they succeed doesn't mean Microsoft will be a total failure. Xbox being at the top of its game may mean 90M consoles instead of 50-60, and that is a meaningful increase in marketshare from where they are now. The ONLY way they get there is to deliver high quality content that consumers have an insatiable desire for that they are willing to opt in to the Xbox ecosystem. The fact that this isn't priority number one or that he considers it an irrelevant play is disastrous mindset for an executive at his level in the industry he's competing it, and it's perhaps not surprising why over the course of a decade since he's been in power that the status quo hasn't gotten any better for Xbox,
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ArcaneNLSC
Member
ZehDon
Member
Having listened to the full interview for context, and having read the 23 pages of this thread, I guess I'm the guy with the hot take today: I think Spencer's correct in what he actually said.
What I took away is that Spencer is talking about is ecosystem investment versus player adoption. If a given gamer spent hundreds of dollars on their PS4 library and were happy with what that console offered, the odds are that they're going to buy a PS5 when the times comes for your next-gen console. That's not an outrageous claim - I think that's pretty much accepted fact. Over the course of a generation, a percentage might be convinced Xbox is the place to be, and maybe they buy a Series S as a secondary console, but for the vast majority, they're entrenched after that initial purchase. They're not going to dump PlayStation because of one Xbox title - be it Halo, Starfield, of something else. And I think that's absolutely correct. Phil is saying Xbox needs to have more than just games to convince people to buy into the Xbox ecosystem - things like Game Pass, xCloud, Play Anywhere, and so on. And again, I think that's absolutely correct: Starfield, Halo, Game Pass, Play Anywhere - that combination might convince someone to change platforms whereas Starfield on its own really isn't going to convince anyone who's invested in the PlayStation ecosystem.
Of course, that's now morphed into "Xbox is a failure, the brand is over, no more great games". Which is odd, because, for me, the takeaway from this interview is that Microsoft remains committed to its own vision, of which great games is a part, of which great services is a part, of which great hardware is a part. And that's been the mission statement since before this generation started. So, I don't think Spencer really said anything controversial at all, just a lot of words in his typical PR speak. Anyway, I'll be off looking for a way to convert every laugh reaction to this post into a dollar so I can retire early. Have fun, folks.
Fredrik
Member
Yup, and he’s spot on saying that, I’m sure fans don’t what to hear it but it’s true that most people has already chosen their platform. As said earlier I see it all the time among friends, the only result from a great exclusive on a platform they don’t own is sadness, frustration and anger, it never lead to new hardware purchases. Built up digital libraries, groups of friends, favorite IPs, it’s all locking people up more and more every year.
What’s surprising here is that what’s said is coming from the head of Xbox instead of just people around here. I don’t think it’s good PR. The more common way in PR is to twist and turn the words and phrase an unfortunate situation into something that sounds like an advantage. He could’ve said that their market share is Xbox+PC since their PC customers get the same experience and don’t have to wait for ports like in other ecosystems. But he just kinda threw in the towel and said they’ll never catch up on the console market share even if Starfield is a 11/10. He’s right, but it’s coming from the wrong mouth.
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reinking
Gold Member
Yes. He nailed when he was talking about software and the goal should be to pull people into the Xbox ecosystem despite them owning a PS5 or Switch.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Great games with great third party support sell consoles. Third party support alone does not. Bad first party games does not. Great first party games alone does not.
Playstation has both.
Switch has both.
Wii U did not.
Xbox One, Xbox Series both do not.
There was a time where Xbox *was* competitive with both Sony and Nintendo. They were gaining marketshare and could have cemented themselves and earned higher place, espeically during the 8th gen if they didn't fuck up the latter half of hte 7th with poor management. They tried to copy Nintendo with the Kinect and failed to expand their studios and create new blockbuster franchises or high quality first party releases, instead relying on bought exclusivity and the same three tired franchises, two of which they have basically run in the ground since.
JimRyanGOAT
Member
Phil is playing is 4D Chess
Trying to act like its over, and they are happy being in 3rd place
Once that merger goes through he will launch an out all assault
The Jim Ryan Stan Nation Must Be Prepared
Trying to act like its over, and they are happy being in 3rd place
Once that merger goes through he will launch an out all assault
The Jim Ryan Stan Nation Must Be Prepared
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Have only seen a few snippets of the interview, this isn't the first time Phil has sounded honest. But this time it sorta feels like he's being honest to get sympathy from the consumer. Either Phil needs to make dramatic changes to create a true value for Xbox even if it means stopping games from going day and date on gamepass as well as not launching it on PC at the same time or just letting someone else steer the ship.
Captain Toad
Banned
I'm not buying this "honesty" belief.
Honesty would be telling us exactly WHY they decided to release Redfall for $70 while knowing the game was a train wreck.
"We knew the game was unfinished and poorly designed. But, we needed to recoup our losses. We know there are plenty of fans that would waste their money on this. It helped for us to not lift the review embargo until the game released".
THAT would have been honest.
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sachos
Member
I really liked this video response by Benji-Sales. He basically says everything we've mentioned here but its good someone with more of a voice is agreeing.
Basically the main points are that the Switch selling so well with 0 BC vs WiiU disproves his comment about digital libraries carrying plus it proves great games make it sell so well.
He also talks about how there is no need to actually sell more than PS5, they just need to stay competitive.
He says that the Series S is precisely the product that they introduced as a great side console, that they do not need to make people sell their PS5s.
He criticizes the console warrior tint the whole answer had, the defeatist attitude and how its bad from a marketing standpoint.
If they keep building a great library of must have games more and more people will be tempted to at least get a Series S with Gamepass to check those games out. Go from 50 million to 90 million consoles, getting 40 million potential GamePass users.
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