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Polygon examines the really limited roles Moms are afforded in most games
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
E_Darkness
Member
Eh time travel happens a lot in Bayonetta.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
True, but she's still an example of several tropes noted in the OP concerning mothers in gaming.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I forgot about C. Viper. Probably my favorite since she's my main in IV. I was struggling to think about what else I played in the past couple years and I think I got a few more.
Final Fantasy IX: Shit, how could I forget I played this game when it was the last game I played? Garnet's mother is the antagonist of the game for the first two discs. She is definitely a terrible mother if you know the game, but Garnet loved her very much in spite of that and risked her life on multiple occasions to save her. Garnet's real mother however was the good one. Risked her life to save her daughter's rather than trying to kill her daughter for power. I would've liked to have seen Garnet's real mom and Eiko's grandfather get expanded. Eiko's grandfather wasn't even shown. You also have Hilda in the game who becomes Eiko's adopted mother in the conclusion.
Adventures of Hourai High: Hmm... actually it's hard for me to remember if anyone's parents were mentioned in that game. Weird considering it's a game about high school students.
Dragon Quest V: Ugh, how did I forget this one too? Pankraz took the focus in the beginning of the game, but in the second half the mother became more important to the story and
she actually wasn't the one to die in this game and in addition in the later part of the game you actually a mother is playable in the story. I can only speak about Bianca, but she was very faithful as a wife and was endearing and heroic.
Alice Mare: I think there might have been some mention of parents in this game, but the game was really short and most of it was a blur to me.
Donkey Kong Country 2: I think Cranky and Wrinkly are parents, but they're not really important.
Okami: I don't think Amaterasu is a literal mother, but the other gods refer to her as "mother of us all" and seem to worship her above the others.
Yoshi's Island: The stork parents?, but then again the stork gave them the wrong babies so they weren't the brothers' parents.
Kirby Super Star:... Took a while to think about it, but I remembered Dynablade, but it's just a dumb robot bird that somehow has organic bird chicks.???
I think that's everything I played in the last couple years.
SixMachine
Member
I think in fighting games, if you are a mom, you probably are high tier in badassery. These aren't countering or refuting anything from the article, just wanted to highlight these moms since they basically are the big boss of their respective game.
These moms are final bosses (Though I don't know if they will change it for Tekken 7 consoles).
Tekken 7 -
In Tekken Tag games Jun and her Unknown form is the final boss
Guilty Gear has Justice
Though shoutouts to non-boss mom Mitsuko the Boar.
These moms are final bosses (Though I don't know if they will change it for Tekken 7 consoles).
Tekken 7 -
Kazumi
In Tekken Tag games Jun and her Unknown form is the final boss
Guilty Gear has Justice
The strongest character in the Bloody Roar series is Uranus
Though shoutouts to non-boss mom Mitsuko the Boar.
Did you?
Because i failed to see mentions that in one Pokemon game your Mom is a World Class Pokemon Contest Champion (and some people wonder if you will follow her legacy) while another has your Mom as a World Class Pokemon racing champion. But of course these things don't help polygon's narrative.
Also, funny thing that they mention Overwatch with Pharrah's mom, what a timing! How can they call themselves game journalists and not take in account that SHE'S PRETTY MUCH CONFIRMED TO BE THE UPCOMING CHARACTER?
BronsonLee
Member
Moms are tough.
So Square killed them all
So Square killed them all
Otakumegane
Member
Rosalina.
LALALALALALA THAT NEVER HAPPENED! LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
;__________;
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I think in fighting games, if you are a mom, you probably are high tier in badassery. These aren't countering or refuting anything from the article, just wanted to highlight these moms since they basically are the big boss of their respective game.
These moms are final bosses (Though I don't know if they will change it for Tekken 7 consoles).
Tekken 7 -
In Tekken Tag games Jun and her Unknown form is the final boss
Guilty Gear has Justice
The strongest character in the Bloody Roar series is Uranus
Though shoutouts to non-boss mom Mitsuko the Boar.
Wow, I never realized that Jun was Unknown.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I put it down that video game developer are primary male and they are getting older and having Kids, so hence why we get playable fathers.
The only playable mother that I can think off the top of my head is Rosalina;
Where she is referred to as mama by the Lumas, plus there's the fact that she's also the goddess of the Mario and by extension Yoshi, Donkey Kong and the Punch Out universe.
The only mother that is fleshed out in the Pokémon game is the Sinnoh mother, the rest are typically blank slate.
The only playable mother that I can think off the top of my head is Rosalina;
Where she is referred to as mama by the Lumas, plus there's the fact that she's also the goddess of the Mario and by extension Yoshi, Donkey Kong and the Punch Out universe.
The only mother that is fleshed out in the Pokémon game is the Sinnoh mother, the rest are typically blank slate.
Choppasmith
Member
I really need to play Fire Emblem
SixMachine
Member
Yea, in TTT2, you could tell she gets serious when she fights you because the stage first starts out in a nice pretty stage and soft music, then the second round goes all dark and WUBWUBWUBWUBWUB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6ve4px2snk
E_Darkness
Member
Well she is a mother in Okamiden, you play as her son, Chibiterasu. Though from memory she's absent from Okamiden.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Mellisa Gale from Siren Blood Curse was a good example of good and strong mom type character: her dedication to protect her daughter was one of her traits.
But yeah, polygon writer was right, playable mom character was a rarity, especially in AAA scene
But yeah, polygon writer was right, playable mom character was a rarity, especially in AAA scene
She gets murdered midway through the game in a fight against the main antagonist, but she's immediately replaced by her (equally badass) daughter.
Brahme was actually not that bad before Kuja mind-fucked her apparently, several NPCs mention she used to be much different and kind. It's not very obvious in the game, but I always thought it was interesting.
The original Siren also had Reiko Takato, who lost her daugther and becomes a mother-figure to Harumi (Who in turn lost her parents).
Dragon Puncher
Member
So there isn't a lot of mothers in video games, if we don't count the 7 most prevalent stereotypes?
While I think the article has a point (the stereotypes are no doubt true) arguing like this creates a bit of a false narrative. If you took out the 7 most common stereotypes connected to dads in video games, I'm sure there wouldn't be a lot of examples left either. Fact of the matter is that video game stories are still build up around very familiar troopes that need to be expanded in general IMO if the medium wants to tell more engaging and emotionally connecting stories on a regular basis.
While I think the article has a point (the stereotypes are no doubt true) arguing like this creates a bit of a false narrative. If you took out the 7 most common stereotypes connected to dads in video games, I'm sure there wouldn't be a lot of examples left either. Fact of the matter is that video game stories are still build up around very familiar troopes that need to be expanded in general IMO if the medium wants to tell more engaging and emotionally connecting stories on a regular basis.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
From what I've seen it's rare for Dad to be the single parent raising a child. Often times Dad might not even be in the picture.
I wonder if this has any bearing on Dad being more involved in videogame stories? I think it's also a little more tragic when it's Mom that passed away.
This is something I've never thought of though. It would be great if we had more mom characters in gaming.
I wonder if this has any bearing on Dad being more involved in videogame stories? I think it's also a little more tragic when it's Mom that passed away.
This is something I've never thought of though. It would be great if we had more mom characters in gaming.
autoduelist
Member
If a 30-40 year old male is going to write a 'parenting guide', it'll likely be aimed at soon-to-be fathers. Why? Because he's likely a father, and that's his source of inspiration.
Is it any surprise when they sit down to write a game we get the same thing?
Once again, the solution is simple -- people who want a certain type of content should make it, rather than insist others make it for them. If there is a market for it, the market will find it [and then proceed to exploit it into the ground].
Is it any surprise when they sit down to write a game we get the same thing?
Once again, the solution is simple -- people who want a certain type of content should make it, rather than insist others make it for them. If there is a market for it, the market will find it [and then proceed to exploit it into the ground].
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
^
the point
This is like saying that it's ok for the vast majority of protagonists to be straight, white, and male and that if women and minorities want things to change then they have the sole responsibility of doing so, not taking into account the stigmas of the industry when it comes to being a woman or a minority working in games.
What makes you say that, why are you throwing the ability to do research so you can do a parenting guide that's gender neutral or aimed at both separately.
No, im saying it's dishonest to ignore the examples that don't fit the narrative.
All the fictions ever written, how do they work?? This only shows intellectual immaturity of game makers.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The article isn't nor ever implied that moms don't exist, or that there aren't exceptions, it's pointing out the constant tropes we see over and over again in videogame stories, even ones from ND. People are posting straight up fighting game characters as examples of moms in gaming when usually their children have nothing to do with the actual game itself besides having a thin backstory for a fighting game character. You absolutely cannot deny that when it comes to parents in games, let alone playing as them, that it most definitely most of the time involves a male, typically with a beard.
Megalosaro
Banned
In the game I'm working on, a mom is one of the 3 prominent main characters. Her name's Minna. And no, she doesn't die. lol
Coincidentally, the boy's father is never shown, seen, or heard from in the game.
You like Earthbound, don't you?
peaceiscloser
Member
yoooo Fire Emblem has moms. Even grandmas!
(clearly not a shining example tho)
(clearly not a shining example tho)
Congratulations, you haven't played any of the fighting games people are using as example, but specially not played Bloody Roar.
Im not saying the over use of this tropes is not a problem, but it's not helpful to just make a list of whining about who does it wrong and not taking notes and encouraging who does it right.
DangerMouse
Member
Yeah, that was awesome and the one example I thought of too. It was really neat she was a party member.
It's still such a shame she leaves the party. The game takes a hit for it too as it's not as good once she does. Though I guess atleast she doesn't just die in order to leave the party.
Theanine3D
Member
Regarding the thread topic, I wonder what the grandma in Wind Waker would be classified as. She was one of my favorite characters in the game, and was associated some of the most touching story moments. She wasn't technically Link's mom but her role was motherly nonetheless.
I do. I made 3D fanart for EarthBound and Mother 3 for years before I started working on my game (Lolly Joe). Both of those games have been major influences for me as an artist
I do.
I made 3D fanart for EarthBound and Mother 3 for years before I started working on my game (Lolly Joe). Both of those games have been major influences for me as an artisttimetokill
Banned
She was so good that when she leaves the party the game enters a downward spiral for the rest of the game.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I've played every fighting game mentioned in this thread so far. And no, pointing out the tropes and their uses is absolutely productive because for many it serves as a wakeup call for just how prevalent the status quo is. Shit doesn't change or improve when you stay silent. Especially not in the video game industry.
That's a good question, technically she's their grandparent through and through, Link's parents are never mentioned iirc.
If you played Bloody Roar, as you claim, then you'd know Mitsuko doesnt just have "being a mom" as her backstory, in fact her daughter is very important to the game, you know, she's the fricking final boss of the game.
And yes, like i already said, calling out this shit is a good thing, but ignoring the improvements over the years just to get those clicks is dishonest, again, let's go back to pokemon, "your mother as a champion" is actually something they began implementing in the newest games, PROGRESS! Your mom went from a no character to a role model in the newest games, why the hell are people not celebrating this? What gain is there from erasing this step forward towards solving the problem?
DrunkShogun
Member
Lucia in suikoden 3 was a pretty good character. There's a clear issue. It might be an unfortunate mentality that mothers are the emotional parent and so are used in regards to that area.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Recently released Umineko features a whooping 4 moms as a part of the main cast! And they definately don't fall into traditional VG mom tropes.
DangerMouse
Member
Yup.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
So what you're saying is that she's one of the the exact trope that's mentioned in the article itself? My mistake I didn't see bloody roar mentioned, congrats. Again, the article never said that there weren't any exceptions to the rule, which you seem SO adamant on naming as a sort of "gotcha."
"Interestingly, positive mothers are often not actually mothers at all. In The Witcher 3, Geralt love-interest Yennefer of Vengerberg is ward to special child Ciri, and a highly capable sorcerer."
This positive mom is an abusive weirdo (towards both Ciri and Geralt) who seemed to do everything in her power to make Ciri hate her. I don't think anyone would consider her a positive influence if she existed in world whose characters weren't driven and defined by their irrational obsessions.
"Catherine Halsey is the chief scientist in the Halo series. Tough and uncompromising, she is a mother figure to the Spartan warriors who have been in her charge since childhood. She is also a quasi-mother to her AI offspring Cortana, though they have a difficult relationship. Arguably, she is a war criminal."
And this positive mom got an evil government organization to kidnap her 'children' and swap them with faulty clones with short expiration dates. Those war crimes are inseparable from her role as a minor mother figure.
Still, that was a fascinating, eye-opening article. Living, well-adjusted mothers might actually be the rarest breed in video games. Unicorns probably outnumber moms 1000:1 in Video Game Land.
This positive mom is an abusive weirdo (towards both Ciri and Geralt) who seemed to do everything in her power to make Ciri hate her. I don't think anyone would consider her a positive influence if she existed in world whose characters weren't driven and defined by their irrational obsessions.
"Catherine Halsey is the chief scientist in the Halo series. Tough and uncompromising, she is a mother figure to the Spartan warriors who have been in her charge since childhood. She is also a quasi-mother to her AI offspring Cortana, though they have a difficult relationship. Arguably, she is a war criminal."
And this positive mom got an evil government organization to kidnap her 'children' and swap them with faulty clones with short expiration dates. Those war crimes are inseparable from her role as a minor mother figure.
Still, that was a fascinating, eye-opening article. Living, well-adjusted mothers might actually be the rarest breed in video games. Unicorns probably outnumber moms 1000:1 in Video Game Land.
autoduelist
Member
And I'm okay with that. I think it's preferable to have a more diverse industry than it is to force/expect white 40 year old males to write something from a perspective they may not feel comfortable with.
I'd argue the vast majority of fiction features a protagonist that is similar in thought process, if not gender/background, to the author.
Besides, fiction is a perfect example. It's well known that females buy far more books than males, and as such, the majority of the industry is geared towards them. Now, the industry is large enough that there's still stuff aimed at guys, of course, but we aren't out there complaining when someone writes a book with their cultural identity as the protagonist. Not all entertainment needs to be geared for everyone.
The answer isn't telling 40 year old white males to write as [insert various minority checklist]. The answer is having more people enter the industry and create content they feel at home creating. This will happen naturally as the market expands and niches are filled, just like it happens in every single other entertainment industry.
Anyone who thinks it's just 'intellectual immaturity' for someone to write from what they know suffers from their own form of the same, because the fact is, anyone in a position to write something should write what they want to write, not what you want them to write. If I decide to write a book or game and have the protagonist be similar to me, it doesn't mean I'm 'intellectually immature' -- it means thats what I want to write about. And that's fine. Unless it's 'intellectually immature' for a black woman to write about the struggles of a black woman?
Im saying Pokemon is an example of a series that it's improving on this regard and the article consciously decided to ignore said improvement because "muh clicks".
Polygon has a long story of insincere articles and this one just comes off as another one to me, i'd take it more seriously if they had the decency to at least acknowledge the progress.
The examples in MK I posted have their children been part of the story. Heck, Sonya and Cassie's relationship was quite tense because they don't get along.
Or in the original timeline Sindel recovered her memories when reunited with Kitana, something that didn't happened in the new timeline despite Kitana trying.
The other mothers are missing from the gane, with one been killed.
Not saying that that fixes things, I just pointed out an example that was missing from the article and that goes back to 1995.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If it's so difficult for 40 year old males to write from a perspective that's not their own, (it's not btw), then they should consult minorities when they feel the need to.
Yet there are examples of writers who make characters that don't, in a lot of mediums which are a shit ton more diverse in scenarios compared to video games.
Besides, fiction is a perfect example. It's well known that females buy far more books than males, and as such, the majority of the industry is geared towards them. Now, the industry is large enough that there's still stuff aimed at guys, of course, but we aren't out there complaining when someone writes a book with their cultural identity as the protagonist.[/QUOTE]
Yes there are. That's another part of the issue.
The fact that you consider it a checklist is honestly quite telling. The answer is BOTH, male devs need to make efforts to branch out and write from perspectives they aren't used to while also not stigmatizing women and minorities in the industry.
Anyone who thinks it's just 'intellectual immaturity' for someone to write from what they know suffers from their own form of the same, because the fact is, anyone in a position to write something should write what they want to write, not what you want them to write.[/QUOTE]
Ok first of all, every article you ever see on the internet is meant to get clicks, for fuck sake there isn't some conspiracy or devious intention to get more clicks than what you deem are "deserved." I'm so tired of seeing conspiracy theories presented in threads like this as reasons why the writer wrote the article in the first place as if it has anything to do with the actual subject. Second of all, once again, the article is not saying that there aren't exceptions to the tropes in anyway shape or form, that includes pokemon, where the vast majority of moms are as they described. They aren't actively ignoring it, they're pointing out what's there.
There is no conspiracy, of course all articles are written to generate clicks, and you know what generates clicks? sensationalism, this is why most articles in the internet are always written with a negative slant, because bad news and controversies sell more, gaming journalism is infamous for this, but hardly the only ones at fault, you wouldn't call criticizing fox news for putting a negative and overwhelmingly republican slant on their news a conspiracy, would you? It's not a conspiracy, i am merely stating that Polygon obviously cherry picked what would help create a narrative that would get them the most clicks, as we agreed, that's their job, doesn't mean people will not call them out for ignoring the good stuff, as demonstrated by this thread.
We know this problem is very real, so people are here in this thread going "look, here is a bunch of games who are trying to do something about it", why do you react so negatively to this?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This article isn't sensational. You deem it sensational because you feel like it has to point out every exception as if that discounts all the tropes seen above as being false or not as common when they absolutely are. Hence the word exception in the first place.
Selan from Lufia 2
After being commander of an army and famous warrior, she marries the main character, they become a child and then they both go saving the world.
And then sadly die after achieving it.
It's kind of interesting, since you actually paly as the long-dead parents in Lufia 2, because it is the prequel to Lufia 1.
Man, it's true though. There aren't many playable moms at all. And very little who take part in the story in a meaningful way.
The only mother I can remember who actually isn't a bad influence on her child is Lilly from the original Grandia. Okay she was a pirate when she was a teenager, but decided to give that up when she met Justin's father. She runs a restaurant in their hometown of Parm and every time when Justin gets in trouble she scolds him for it. She eventually lets her son go because he wants go on a adventure and hopes she taught her son well.
The only mother I can remember who actually isn't a bad influence on her child is Lilly from the original Grandia. Okay she was a pirate when she was a teenager, but decided to give that up when she met Justin's father. She runs a restaurant in their hometown of Parm and every time when Justin gets in trouble she scolds him for it. She eventually lets her son go because he wants go on a adventure and hopes she taught her son well.
Have you been intentionally ignoring every instance of me in this very thread saying that the problem is very real and a few examples don't invalidate it?
And how that doesn't change the fact that Polygon is intentionally stirring the narrative away from the very few examples of games doing something about it?
Im just saying, just because the problem still exist, that doesn't mean we shouldn't celebrate those who do it right.
Even Anita has a series celebrating games that do women right, does it invalidate the overwhelming majority of sexist portrayals? No, of course not, but it encourages people to cherish and follow the example of those who are making progress.