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[Deleted member 752119]

The very first time I used a headset, like 2 minutes in, I heard someone calling me names. Solution: I stopped using headsets with strangers.

Nobody is forced to listen to insults if they don't want to, and any modern system offer multiple choices in how to deal with it (like private parties, blocking, etc).

There is no problem.

Same here. And I've mostly just quit online gaming period. It's not fun playing with randos if you can't talk, and no fun listening to all the bullshit. Online gaming is only worth it if you have real friends to play with, and being 40 this year I have few that still game and no interest in making friends lists on forums anymore. Single player stuff is more my jam anyway.

That said, I disagree that it's not a problem as it sucks that society is such that this shit is the norm. But it just is what it is. A lot of people suck, and it's a higher concentration in "nerdy" hobbies as you have so many social rejects among the diehard bases there. In any case, the world would be a much better place if people could just be polite and civil to one another. But that's a utopian dream that will never exist unfortunately.

 

[TannerDemoz]

What is the problem? That there are bigots in the world or that women are being insulted online? If it is the latter, like the OP is referring to, then it is not a problem. If it is the former, then it's something outside of videogames.

Talking to women like shit online shouldn't be normalised. We should fight back against it – just like we'd fight back against discrimination. I don't understand your logic how you think this isn't a problem.

 

[Gander]

This false narrative that gaming has "always been a boy's club" needs to end. Gaming existed for 20 years before the North American "console wars" between SEGA and Nintendo, which is where the edgy, boy-focused advertisement became prevalent. Girls have always played and developed games from the beginning.

I think your looking through rose colored glasses. The girls of the industry paint a different picture

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Talking to women like shit online shouldn't be normalised. We should fight back against it – just like we'd fight back against discrimination. I don't understand your logic how you think this isn't a problem.

Talking to people like shit online shouldn't be normalized, and plenty of people do fight back against it. People in this thread are offering ways to fight back against it, in fact.

Taking a real problem (online harassment) and then artificially laying the blame at the feet of "toxic male gamers", and then trying to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment is stupid. There's really no other term for it: if you think there's a logical connection between "harassment exists --> it's the fault of men --> you don't think it's the fault of men so you're saying harassment doesn't exist?" then you are stupid, I'm sorry to say. You have failed to grasp the most basic, time-honored forms of logical that have been available publicly for 1000s of years.

I think your looking through rose colored glasses. The girls of the industry paint a different picture

No, I'm just looking at history. Feel free to point out where I am mistaken, but telling me "I think you're looking through rose colored glasses. You should ask a selected handful of the self-appointed experts" is a fine example of logical fallacy. Try again.

 

[LordPezix]

If you’d like to comment on this article, you can contact us via our email form, or on Facebook, Twitter and other social media outlets. We will publish the best comments in a follow-up article.

Ah, selective narrative I see.

 

[DonF]

I imagine the polygon offices full of "emergency whips" with a sign on top that says "in case of privilege", the self flagellation screaming covering every hall, echoing 24/7.

 

[Fuz]

"If you’d like to comment on this article, you can contact us via our email form, or on Facebook, Twitter and other social media outlets. We will publish the best comments in a follow-up article. "

ahahahahaha
Holy shit, they're super toxic.

 

[lukilladog]

Latest generation has poorer education than their parents.

 

[TannerDemoz]

Talking to people like shit online shouldn't be normalized, and plenty of people do fight back against it. People in this thread are offering ways to fight back against it, in fact.

Taking a real problem (online harassment) and then artificially laying the blame at the feet of "toxic male gamers", and then trying to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment is stupid. There's really no other term for it: if you think there's a logical connection between "harassment exists --> it's the fault of men --> you don't think it's the fault of men so you're saying harassment doesn't exist?" then you are stupid, I'm sorry to say. You have failed to grasp the most basic, time-honored forms of logical that have been available publicly for 1000s of years.

Where did I lay the blame at the feet of 'toxic male gamers?'

Where did I say there's a logical connection between harassment exists and it's the fault of men?

 

[Arimer]

So you roll out an article about Men, interview mostly women, and at that mostly women that are coming at this with a preconceived ideological angle. Great work.

Also wasn't there a study recently that showed women harass women online more than men harass women?

*edit. Seems everyone's shitty online.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online?ref=home?ref=home

 

[Fuz]

Talking to women like shit online shouldn't be normalised.

And men.
Anyway, insults and harassment were around since the beginning (Think Q1), but we weren't so prone to be offended. This has become a problem once americans founded the religion of being offended.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Where did I lay the blame at the feet of 'toxic male gamers?'

The article does. I figured you agreed when your continued to frame the issue as being a problem for women instead of simply being a problem.

Where did I say there's a logical connection between harassment exists and it's the fault of men?

The article does. I figured you agreed when you said

I don't understand your logic how you think this isn't a problem.

and

I’m not blanketing all ‘white male gamers’ as the issue because that’s fucking stupid but you can’t argue that women don’t have a hard time in the industry at the hands of some arseholes

and especially hot takes like:

Starting to notice a lot of the toxicity in GAF is all from members circa 2018 - think that says a lot about what this forum has become.

Help me by pointing out where your opinion and the article's opinion differs. The only thing I've seen you say is that they should have consulted some "behavioral psychologists" instead.

 

[Cosmogony]

I think your looking through rose colored glasses. The girls of the industry paint a different picture

In order to establish this, you would have to:

1. Collect the opinions on the matter expressed by female devs.
2. Show that these opinions reflect a) real harassment situations, as opposed to grievances or legitimate criticism and b) harassment demonstrably by male gamers
3. Show that these opinions are statistically relevant and representative of the consensus among female devs.

This would require some work. Have you put in the work?

 

[Toe-Knee]

Why not just report/block these peaple who abuses them?

I mean... the tools are available.

Why should they have to jump through hoops because someone is a scumbag?

This is the exact reason why I rarely play online. Even when it isn't aimed at me it's absolutely repulsive to hear.

Online gaming really brings out the cesspool of humanity.

The victims are not the ones that should be taking additional actions to enjoy something they have every right to.

 

[theHFIC]

uh oh a Polygon article talking about gender and gaming. PearlClutchingGAF is coming out in full force with these new accusations.

 

[Cosmogony]

And

Talking to women like shit online shouldn't be normalised. We should fight back against it – just like we'd fight back against discrimination. I don't understand your logic how you think this isn't a problem.

And how about fighting against "talking to fellow humans like shit online"?

 

[TannerDemoz]

The article does. I figured you agreed when your continued to frame the issue as being a problem for women instead of simply being a problem.


The article does. I figured you agreed when you said



and



and especially hot takes like:



Help me by pointing out where your opinion and the article's opinion differs. The only thing I've seen you say is that they should have consulted some "behavioral psychologists" instead.

You're misquoting me because I was replying in response to someone else. I'm not denying this is a universal problem; I was responding to someone saying they don't think it's an issue for women.

Gladly mate, it doesn't differ greatly, I just don't think the way they've presented this piece is the right way of doing it. I feel like by opening the article with the para:

'This story is not another attempt to chronicle the activities of racist and misogynist men who harass women and people of color on social media and in multiplayer games.'

Is the author basically saying: it is, but stick with us.

Like any decent piece of journalism, they should have widened their sources. Or, better still, like you're saying (you seem like a clever person) referenced the fact this is still a universal problem not just for females.

 

[Gander]

In order to establish this, you would have to:

1. Collect the opinions on the matter expressed by female devs.
2. Show that these opinions reflect a) real harassment situations, as opposed to grievances or legitimate criticism and b) harassment demonstrably by male gamers
3. Show that these opinions are statistically relevant and representative of the consensus among female devs.

This would require some work. Have you put in the work?

You're a funny troll, did you ask him if he has done similar investigation to prove there has never been discrimination against girls in gaming? I think not peace out.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Why should they have to jump through hoops because someone is a scumbag?

The victims are not the ones that should be taking additional actions to enjoy something they have every right to.

"Why should I have to lock the front door because there's burglars?"

Take some responsibility for yourself. Assholes exist, dangerous situations exist, people who want to take advantage of you exist. The only one you should depend upon is yourself. Take matters in your own hands to prevent and deal with problems. It's much more productive than looking for others to fix things for you or whine about how unfair it all is.

Someone harasses you in a game? There's systems in place to block communications and report them to the developer or platformholder. This issue has already been solved, as many have stated already.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

uh oh a Polygon article talking about gender and gaming. PearlClutchingGAF is coming out in full force with these new accusations.

On one side I see disagreements and explanations to support those disagreements.

And on the other side then I see hot takes, "can't believe GAF has fallen so far", "can't believe I'm hearing this in 2018", and pearl-clutching that "this place has fallen so far" and "GAF is a hotbed for the alt-right".

But I mean, if you had an opinion to offer the thread in support of Polygon's article, no one is stopping you from sharing it...

You're misquoting me because I was replying in response to someone else. I'm not denying this is a universal problem; I was responding to someone saying they don't think it's an issue for women.

Gladly mate, it doesn't differ greatly, I just don't think the way they've presented this piece is the right way of doing it. I feel like by opening the article with the para:

'This story is not another attempt to chronicle the activities of racist and misogynist men who harass women and people of color on social media and in multiplayer games.'

Is the author basically saying: it is, but stick with us.

Like any decent piece of journalism, they should have widened their sources. Or, better still, like you're saying (you seem like a clever person) referenced the fact this is still a universal problem not just for females.

I can't speak for the other poster, then. I apologize if I butted into the dialog and misunderstood where you were coming from.

You are correct: my stance is that harassment is a problem. Harassment occurs against both men and women. We can all address it together and also I believe there is room for special-interest groups to specifically discuss harassment against their own special-interest group (women, racial minorities, to name two). That is the extent to which my opinions and that of the article are in agreement.

But the article goes further. It lays the blame at the feet of men. There are people who take issue with that, who do not agree with overall problem of harassment being framed as men vs women (which the article does) instead of harassment in general. So if the article says "this is a big problem for women" when the facts say it's a big problem for everyone (men experience it more, according to research) then it only makes sense that people would speak up and say "uhhh, no? This isn't a woman's problem. It's just a problem. Why is it being framed as a woman's problem and being aimed at men?".

That's a valid point. Defenders of the article have yet to answer it.

 

[Cosmogony]

You're a funny troll, did you ask him if he has done similar investigation to prove there has never been discrimination against girls in gaming? I think not peace out.

Calling someone a troll is the last resort of those deserted by facts.

Evidently, I am not claiming that there has never been discrimination against girls in gaming.

You, on the other hand, implied the consensus among female devs was that routine male harassment exists. I want to know how you know this and how you have established this alleged consensus corresponds with reality.

But, alternatively, you can sulk

 

[Catphish]

Those who are unsatisfied with the responses of "you can ignore it", what would you propose?

This has been going on as long as the internet has been a widespread thing. You can't do anything to stop unless you actively scan all voice chat to catch it and punish it, which I don't see any game company doing, for a multitude of reasons.

Aside from that, we would need a fundamental, coordinated culture shift, starting with new humans at birth, and good luck with that.

The only practical option is to ignore it.

I mean, there are plenty of impractical options, like writing clickbait articles and getting hot and pissy on a message board, but I wouldn't expect a whole lot from that.

 

[Toe-Knee]

"Why should I have to lock the front door because there's burglars?"

Take some responsibility for yourself. Assholes exist, dangerous situations exist, people who want to take advantage of you exist. The only one you should depend upon is yourself. Take matters in your own hands to prevent and deal with problems. It's much more productive than looking for others to fix things for you or whine about how unfair it all is.

Someone harasses you in a game? There's systems in place to block communications and report them to the developer or platformholder. This issue has already been solved, as many have stated already.

Entertainment is a very different thing to real world physical dangers.

I don't get why do many people are wanting to give this a free pass.

Its no longer an issue for me as I just simply don't play online or just open an empty party before going into any mp but it's still disgusting.

I wonder if half the people saying it isn't an issue would have the same approach if they came across it in the street. Nobody should have to suffer due to face, sex or anything for that matter.

 

[brap]

I imagine the polygon offices full of "emergency whips" with a sign on top that says "in case of privilege", the self flagellation screaming covering every hall, echoing 24/7.

Rare pic of the polygon offices somebody managed to sneak out

 

[Schrödinger's cat]

Let's be honest with each other. The beginnings of the internet was gamers who barely left their rooms and thought they were badass using the N word online and not getting trouble. They owned the internet because no one else was really using it yet. Fast forward to today and this sect still exists but the internet belongs to everybody now. The old guard as it were doesn't like that fact they have to share with the likes of Kim Kardashian or things they are not interested in.

I don't believe there's a lot of honesty in that statement.
In fact, it echoes the practice of setting up a narrative to retrofit a preferred argument into, and then citing itself as 'historic'.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Skyn3t I suggest that you archive the article, so people can read it without giving Polygon clicks. It also comes in handy in case they do some sneaky editing shenanigans.

 

[Yoshi]

Freedom still exists, right? Censorship and attacking people is not the way of changing minds.

It might be true that censorship and attacking people will not change their mind, but racism actually hurts people significantly and for no good reason, it can even be life threatening. So I feel it is sensible to have limits to what you can actually say. I know this is not the case in the US, but if someone denigrates whole groups of people for some irrelevant property such as skin colour or heritage, I think this should not be without consequences. This form of verbal hostility can quickly lead to a live in fear, and over time may even extend beyond mere verbal attacks.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I wonder if half the people saying it isn't an issue would have the same approach if they came across it in the street.

Entertainment is a very different thing to real world physical dangers.

???

 

[ODESZA]

I blame game journalism for keeping this dead dog alive - are they that starved for clicks?

If you continue baiting angry young men, they're just going to continue acting like idiots. like OP said if you're worried about being offended on any platforms you should disable voice chat and use your filters accordingly.

 

[Zog]

I say males should just stop playing online and stop paying for it too. Let women sustain that business model.

 

[Skyn3t]

Am I missing something or one of the editors of Polygon was sexualy harrasing women via social media? Talk about karma.

 

[The Skull]

Slow news day. Let's get some clicks and attack our favourite scape goat! I daren't imagine the circle jerk over this article at resetera.

 

[Gander]

I say males should just stop playing online and stop paying for it too. Let women sustain that business model.

That's childish...is it that hard to admit girls may have been swayed away from gaming because of attitude of guys?

 

[Windom Earle]

Banning Kotaku (again) and Polygon would be in order, but then we couldn't laugh at their garbage journalism anymore.

 

[Bryank75]

I thought they had finally exposed their man-gina’s!

 

[5secondrulesucks]

i personally enjoy when someone gets mad and yells or some shit while playing online. it would make shit so much more boring if all the toxic people left to be honest

 

[Vtecomega]

Why am I not surprised this is from resetera.

 

[DeleteriousObnoxious]

It might be true that censorship and attacking people will not change their mind, but racism actually hurts people significantly and for no good reason, it can even be life threatening. So I feel it is sensible to have limits to what you can actually say. I know this is not the case in the US, but if someone denigrates whole groups of people for some irrelevant property such as skin colour or heritage, I think this should not be without consequences. This form of verbal hostility can quickly lead to a live in fear, and over time may even extend beyond mere verbal attacks.

That's not a sensible way at all, We should be allowed to discuss past and ongoing events in a artistic, political debating fashion with a hope that it will shape people to make their own decision once they made their own connection of what happened School can help people with that , Education and studying as well as conversing with other people can help people get to terms and create their own decision.

as soon as people start calling other people nazists, racists etc. A huge part of society is invalidated, silenced, pacified in debates, conversations and in culture also called Censorship.
I't is quite frankly a terrible trend where completely innocent people that sometimes does stupid things, are framed as something they clearly are not... because as soon as some person is hurt over a small insult or event that was onetime offence.. it completely changes every other aspect of that person and everything he/she has done in life... its despicable. and we should all be ashamed that something like Resetera gets such a strong voice out in the gaming industry on this.

there is quite a disturbing trend where entire lives are turned upside down due to a small mistake...that happened a long time ago.
People have multiple sides, they have many different mental states.. we are not all perfect and will do stupid things. some worse than others.. and that will be punished with jail time a entire timeout of your life in a small cell serving in solitude and might just mess up your entire life completely if your lucky enough to survive the service.

In short:
that is not a way to have a decent conversation and continue to develop our language, that is not a way to go about life in 2018 or ever...
We should as humans acknowledge that bad stuff happens its part of history and it should continue to be part of history. hiding it won't change history.

 

[Tarkus98]

Ok, they are rolling the big guns out now by stringing together words consisting of three syllables or more. It’s approaching “going over my head” territory now.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Talking to women like shit online shouldn't be normalised. We should fight back against it – just like we'd fight back against discrimination. I don't understand your logic how you think this isn't a problem.

I think you are the one who is not acting logically. Let's analyse it, so we can decypher your meaning.

The OP refers to a problem of some gamers getting insulted online. There are many solutions in place: many platforms punish players who break the terms of service when they are reported, you can block them, you can join friends parties, or, as a last resort, just not use headset. That's the problem and those are the solutions. Just like in real life, you don't know who you are dealing with online.

Now, you are changing the subject to political activism?

First of all, what does it have to do with videogames or online multiplayer? These are problems that go far beyond videogames.

Second, attacking people is not going to persuade anyone. That's ineffective and it is not going to change anyone's minds.

 

[CrustyBritches]

It's obvious that with the rise of Youtube/Twitch, gamers didn't need the "gaming press" any longer. So their new tactic is to smear and attack their old fan base in hopes of regaining clicks. Don't click their site and give them ad money to propogate their hateful and bigoted stereotypes.

 

[Cosmogony]

W

We can’t. There’s no balance - and I’ll be honest and say I think the mods are failing dramatically trying to moderate rational, constructive threads.

Yes, because the OP expressing his own opinion and the members expressing opinions that don't coincide with yours somehow magically stops the debate from being fair.

Here it is. Equality of Outcome has now moved on to internet debates as well. A debate can only be fair if both sides can claim 50% of the expressed opinions.
That seems completely reasonable.
It really does.

But hey, if it gets GAF the clicks they need by letting juniors post pointless articles about ‘OMG check out this SJW bullshit’ then fair play. Starting to notice a lot of the toxicity in GAF is all from members circa 2018 - think that says a lot about what this forum has become

.

Yes, because one being a junior member would somehow make one's opinions less valuable, less credible, less substantiated than yours. Why argue rationally if you can wave your X years as a full-fledged NeoGAF member to win arguments, right? You don't even know what an Ad Hominem fallacy is and yet here you are presuming to lecture the thread on what a fair debate entails.

You post, others can comment. Others post. You can comment. That's how it works. Alternatively, there is this forum where mods make sure your line of thinking is the only one you will ever get to read. Would that make for a more balanced, fair debate?

If you want to win the thread over, make a compelling case.
The issue seems to be the suggestion by Polygon that the problem of harassment is a) wide-spread and generalized and b) male-centric.

I am not claiming Polygon are wrong, but I do want to know how they know this for a fact. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Why should they have to jump through hoops because someone is a scumbag?

How do you even live? In real life we need to careful at all times, in traffic or just walking on the street. You can get mugged, shot, stabbed, hit by a car, etc. Why would the internet be any different?

That's like arguing against condoms because "why should they have jump through hoops because someone has STDs?".

 

[Trogdor1123]

I've only ever really heard this stuff once ever.... I just muted them. Am I really that lucky?

 

[TannerDemoz]

Yes, because the OP expressing his own opinion and the members expressing opinions that don't coincide with yours somehow magically stops the debate from being fair.

Here it is. Equality of Outcome has now moved on to internet debates as well. A debate can only be fair if both sides can claim 50% of the expressed opinions.
That seems completely reasonable.
It really does.


.

Yes, because one being a junior member would somehow make one's opinions less valuable, less credible, less substantiated than yours. Why argue rationally if you can wave your X years as a full-fledged NeoGAF member to win arguments, right? You don't even know what an Ad Hominem fallacy is and yet here you are presuming to lecture the thread on what a fair debate entails.

You post, others can comment. Others post. You can comment. That's how it works. Alternatively, there is this forum where mods make sure your line of thinking is the only one you will ever get to read. Would that make for a more balanced, fair debate?

If you want to win the thread over, make a compelling case.
The issue seems to be the suggestion by Polygon that the problem of harassment is a) wide-spread and generalized and b) male-centric.

I am not claiming Polygon are wrong, but I do want to know how they know this for a fact. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

No, what I'm saying is if you're gonna try and start a decent thread don't start it with 'lol more sjw bullshit' (original post has now been edited). Doesn't really set things off an decent footing, does it?

Don't assume I don't know what logical fallacies are because you've read a couple of psychology books.

And the quality of threads on NeoGAF has substantially dropped in quality since anyone can post. I'm not saying they're all shit, but now GAF is riddled with threads about SJWs or feminism. It's pretty much turned into off-topic discussion.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Here it is. Equality of Outcome has now moved on to internet debates as well. A debate can only be fair if both sides can claim 50% of the expressed opinions.
That seems completely reasonable.
It really does.

Sharply put.

 

[Thiagosc777]

It might be true that censorship and attacking people will not change their mind, but racism actually hurts people significantly and for no good reason, it can even be life threatening. So I feel it is sensible to have limits to what you can actually say. I know this is not the case in the US, but if someone denigrates whole groups of people for some irrelevant property such as skin colour or heritage, I think this should not be without consequences. This form of verbal hostility can quickly lead to a live in fear, and over time may even extend beyond mere verbal attacks.

I agree, but that's why there is punishment for it. It's against the TOS. You can report the user, and he will get suspended or worse.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Same here. And I've mostly just quit online gaming period. It's not fun playing with randos if you can't talk, and no fun listening to all the bullshit. Online gaming is only worth it if you have real friends to play with, and being 40 this year I have few that still game and no interest in making friends lists on forums anymore. Single player stuff is more my jam anyway.

That said, I disagree that it's not a problem as it sucks that society is such that this shit is the norm. But it just is what it is. A lot of people suck, and it's a higher concentration in "nerdy" hobbies as you have so many social rejects among the diehard bases there. In any case, the world would be a much better place if people could just be polite and civil to one another. But that's a utopian dream that will never exist unfortunately.

I agree.

I use the Xbox LFG feature and I find it very easy to find people to play with. It's better than trying with randoms. But there are LFG sites too.

 

[captainraincoat]

I would agree that it is a very make centric problem but gaming really started as a Male only thing....growing up hardly any girls played games and it's only in the last 10-15 years female gamers have become more prevalent.

Without sugar coating it gaming online can be a bit of a sesspit....many people use gaming as a way to escape the real world problems and it gives them the power to not only be anonymous but also give them power they don't have in the real world.

What does that translate into....someone being a dick online.....unfortunately females tend to come into the crossfire of this.

There are also elements of the internet and media that latch onto this problem of toxic culture as a femminist/trans/sjw vehicle for others to follow

 

[JohnnyFootball]

It would be nice if everyone was nicer to eachother.

But the truth of the matter is that no matter how many articles, no matter how many anti-mean programs, there are always people who are going to be assholes.

People need to do what humans have done prior the feelings age, sack it up and in the case of online, just block and report and let it be.