• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PSA: literally lift heavy stone

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member


"
Introduction
Mental health disorders are among the leading causes of the global health-related burden, with substantial individual and societal costs.1 2 In 2019, one in eight people (970 million) worldwide were affected by a mental health disorder3 and almost one in two (44%) will experience a mental health disorder in their lifetime.4 The annual global costs of mental health disorders have been estimated at $2.5 trillion (USD), which is projected to increase to $6 trillion (USD) by 2030.5 Depression is the leading cause of mental health-related disease burden,6 while anxiety is the most prevalent mental health disorder.3 Additionally, the COVID-19 pandemic has been associated with increased rates of psychological distress, with prevalence ranging between 35% and 38% worldwide.7–9

The role of lifestyle management approaches, such as exercise, sleep hygiene and a healthy diet, varies between clinical practice guidelines in different countries. In US clinical guidelines,10 psychotherapy or pharmacotherapy is recommended as the initial treatment approaches, with lifestyle approaches considered as ‘complementary alternative treatments’ where psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy are ‘ineffective or unacceptable’. In other countries such as Australia, lifestyle management is recommended as the first-line treatment approach,11 12 though in practice, pharmacotherapy is often provided first.

There have been hundreds of research trials examining the effects of physical activity (PA) on depression, anxiety and psychological distress, many of which suggest that PA may have similar effects to psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy (and with numerous advantages over psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy, in terms of cost, side-effects and ancillary health benefits).13–18 Despite the evidence for the benefits of PA, it has not been widely adopted therapeutically. Patient resistance, the difficulty of prescribing and monitoring PA in clinical settings, as well as the huge volume of largely incommensurable studies, have probably impeded a wider take-up in practice.13 14 17

Results Ninety-seven reviews (1039 trials and 128 119 participants) were included. Populations included healthy adults, people with mental health disorders and people with various chronic diseases. Most reviews (n=77) had a critically low A MeaSurement Tool to Assess systematic Reviews score. Physical activity had medium effects on depression (median effect size=−0.43, IQR=−0.66 to –0.27), anxiety (median effect size=−0.42, IQR=−0.66 to –0.26) and psychological distress (effect size=−0.60, 95% CI −0.78 to –0.42), compared with usual care across all populations. The largest benefits were seen in people with depression, HIV and kidney disease, in pregnant and postpartum women, and in healthy individuals. Higher intensity physical activity was associated with greater improvements in symptoms. Effectiveness of physical activity interventions diminished with longer duration interventions.

Conclusion and relevance Physical activity is highly beneficial for improving symptoms of depression, anxiety and distress across a wide range of adult populations, including the general population, people with diagnosed mental health disorders and people with chronic disease. Physical activity should be a mainstay approach in the management of depression, anxiety and psychological distress.
"



tldr: Exercise is the most successful intervention for depression, anxiety, and psychological distress, and has virtually no negative side effects.
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I'm not an active person. Never been an athlete or anything like that aside from taking mandatory gym class and playing some university sports after class (goofing around, not league play) and alumni gym memberships which I barely used for 5 years. Mowing the lawn and shoveling the snow are the most strenuous activities I do.

But I still find just going for a walk works wonders. For me it's not even about the exercise part since walking to the store and back (I did it twice today at diff stores) isnt exactly going to transform you into Chris Hemsworth. But taking a stroll for 40 minutes here and there lets you just get out and think about shit. In which hopefully it's good stuff. Or at worst not harmful to one's psyche. When youre walking, you arent staring at your phone or surfing the net. Ok, I do check my phone for sports scores as I want to keep up with the Texas/Seattle score for sake of wildcards. But thats kind of it. I walked today for like 80 minutes. 40 in the afternoon and I just did another 40 and got home an hour ago.

But if you're glued to Twitter, Tik Tok, FB and shit like that all day all lows can really come out because you see bad things, read bad comments, or feel like shit because all the people you see and follow are probably on the successful end (at least on the surface if they are faking it). So people who have fragile minds or already down in the dumps will feel worse because it seems everyone else is blowing past them in life.

On the plus side, if people can cut out the crap and focus on positive stuff if they are that glued to a screen, it should lead to positive outcomes (I think). Because assuming you know what to search for, the net is still the biggest free pot of info out there. You just got to cut through the junk.

For those people that glued to a screen, try to focus on content that isnt really political, mean spirited, or have tons of comments from random trollers. Sports, business, home renos, hobbies etc... are probably going to be more to the point and not that political as a whole. A lot of it has zero opinion. Just articles about stats and recaps or people blabbing about scores, player analysis , trade rumours, dollars, rates and stock prices, how to fix a leaky faucet, remote control cars whatever. Its kind of hard to have combative editorials and politics unless it's once in a lifetime stuff like Colin Kaepernick kneeing.

Or just have fun watching YT channels regarding world street food markets or Action Lab (dude who does cool science shit). How anyone can get depressed watching this positive kinds of videos would be virtually impossible IMO.
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I like going for walks, but it can be really annoying where I currently am. Plenty of mountains and trails, but plenty of ticks and mosquitoes too. Walking or biking on the road is too dangerous. Hopefully after I move I can be as active as I want to be
For me it's easy as I live in the burbs and there's various strip malls in every direction. I got everything from Walmart, various grocery stores, my bank if I need cash, tons of fast food joints. I never do it in the morn since I'm not a early riser, but all the key stores near me close at 10 pm or 11 pm. So when weather is decent I will do a late night stroll at 8 or 9 pm. do some shopping before closing. Most of these key stores open at 7 or 8 am too, so I can technically do it in the morn too if I ever get off my ass when I wake up.

In the summer heat I try to avoid going too late as the mosquitos come out. A month ago I got nailed with some bites on my shoulder which pierced through my shirt and got a big one on my fucking head!
 

Mistake

Member
For me it's easy as I live in the burbs and there's various strip malls in every direction. I got everything from Walmart, various grocery stores, my bank if I need cash, tons of fast food joints. I never do it in the morn since I'm not a early riser, but all the key stores near me close at 10 pm or 11 pm. So when weather is decent I will do a late night stroll at 8 or 9 pm. do some shopping before closing. Most of these key stores open at 7 or 8 am too, so I can technically do it in the morn too if I ever get off my ass when I wake up.

In the summer heat I try to avoid going too late as the mosquitos come out. A month ago I got nailed with some bites on my shoulder which pierced through my shirt and got a big one on my fucking head!
Mosquitos don't matter as much to me with bug spray, but I don't feel like getting Lyme disease. There's some new breed of tick that even goes in open grass, because usually they're in tree lines. They were twice as bad this year, along with the damn horse flies.

I used to bike a lot of dirt roads, but a couple dogs went after me once and I'm not interested in killing someone's pet
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
One thing too IMO which helps me with piece of mind (I dont think I am OCD, but some people call me OCD being too neat and process oriented. But het I do finance. It's a logic and process kind of job no wonder I like it).

But for those of you feeling down in the dumps and it doesn't have to do with medical or chemical imbalance kinds of things (requiring meds), so in other words your depression is due all or mainly to your situation with solvable things with your own brain and two hands, make a master list and check off what youve accomplished and what you got outstanding. For me, I dont bother anymore because I've kind of checked off everything I need to do in life aside from hooking up with a hot chick. But even then I dont really care if i'm single for life. My only other outstanding thing is finishing off a will. I know what I want to do but havent finalized any forms or anything. So for me, it's down to two things.... hooking up and making sure if I drop dead I leave my fam with clear instructions how to handle my limp dick body and split my money. Everything else from jobs, money, bills paid, fam and friends are good etc...

But for anyone out there who is kind of all over the map where things are pissing you off, make a list, and be reasonable what you can achieve and what you cant. And it's ok if you cant because the key is accepting and not being a 100% completionist like playing a video game. I'm overweight and lost 10 lbs lately. I want to lose more but I'm not aiming to be a fitness pro. Just enough to make me happy (probably another 10-15 lbs). I'll still be a bit chunky but who fucking cares. I find a master list no different than being at work where I got my master list of tasks t do. When I got shit to do I put it on the list. If it's reoccuring thing, I leave it there as a reminder. If it's a one off task and done, I cross it off or delete it. The point is to cross off any many tasks that come your way bogging you down, and for any reoccuring shit (oh man, I got to do some boring ass weekly reports) I got that shit handled (just like a credit card bill or car loan).

And the most important thing is whatever your situation and list is, DO NOT COMPARE to other people. Being one of those chasing trends and being the biggest top dog on the block will just make you envious.

Family and friends
x
y
x

Career
x
y
z

Finances and bills
x
y
z

Health
x
y
z

Home/property
x
y
z

Any other hot topics important to you
x
y
z
 
Last edited:

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I heard one psychologist put it this way: You can't think yourself out of a problem with your thoughts. Using the function that is unwell to solve how unwell it is rarely ever works.

There have also been studies that the natural side to side motion of your eyes looking at things as you pass by triggers mechanisms in your brain that emotionally lets go of painful memories. So literally physically moving forward helps you move forward in life.

I personally have a theory of principle that our bodies are made for high throughput and current society is too efficient and protective, putting us in a low throughput state.
Less expended by effort or enduring harsh elements -> less needing to be restored -> less of what we consume being put to use -> less physical material being refreshed -> more stored material that is aging -> overall lower fresh material of being and need for higher concentration of nutrients in the lower volume of throughput

Plus there is a lot of information on hydration being more important than thought before, which we are more likely to keep up with if we are more physically active, and there is also a lot of new study on the important role of fascia and keeping it loose and hydrated/lubricated by using it through full rage of motion body movements.
 

Jinzo Prime

Member
Also of note:


Emoji Think GIF
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Antis are awful. They can work as a crutch in the short term, but long term no way. Made things a lot worse for me, and pretty sure that's what caused my stomach problems. Once I was able to take control over my own life, things improved dramatically
Funny thing is I've never done drugs of any kind (not even weed or clubbing ecstasy pills), so I'd assume when I hear people take anti-depressants, I'd assume it acts like an upper. And going by that I'd assume taking an upper means you feel lively free as a bird, or so awesome like someone just finishing jacking off.

Just curious, why would taking antis or uppers (if they are the same thing??) lead to bad things? The effectiveness wears off? Kills your insides (like your stomach issue)? Leads to other health issues even if you feel less depressed?
 
Last edited:

Mistake

Member
Funny thing is I've never done drugs of any kind (not even weed or clubbing ecstasy pills), so I'd assume when I hear people take anti-depressants, I'd assume it acts like an upper. And going by that I'd assume taking an upper means you feel lively free as a bird, or so awesome like someone just finishing jacking off.

Just curious, why would taking antis or uppers (if they are the same thing??) lead to bad things? The effectiveness wears off? Kills your insides (like your stomach issue)? Leads to other health issues even if you feel less depressed?
Antidepressants or SSRIs were initially under studied and pushed heavily. The effects on children and adolescents were unknown. Great timing in my case. Now if you see them on commercials they say stuff like "may increase suicidal thoughts" or "intestinal discomfort." They are actually used now to treat a few stomach issues like IBS.

When I was on them I just felt dead. No ups or downs, and suicidal thoughts increased dramatically which led to some things...For my stomach I got a weird imbalance and was tired as hell for 20+ years. Didn't even know the problem until recently.
Edit: I mean to say the stomach issue persisted long after I quit the medication. I stopped around 8th grade
 
Last edited:

JonSnowball

Member
I dropped the stone on my foot and now I'm all fucked up. Sound advice given from OP as I'm now distracted from my depressed state. Thank you my wise leader.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Antis are awful. They can work as a crutch in the short term, but long term no way. Made things a lot worse for me, and pretty sure that's what caused my stomach problems. Once I was able to take control over my own life, things improved dramatically

They're a god's send to many people, for depression - and off label use as well. I've been on amitriptyline for a long time for tinnitus and it helps me both to sleep, and habituate. I know people on them for nerve pain, back problems, and a variety of other issues.

Are you in America? I find more and more that the corrupt US healthcare system foists anti-depressants and benzos off on people when they absolutely shouldn't be on them, because it makes doctors and pharma companies money.
 

edbrat

Member
I walk between 8000 to 10000 steps a day 5 days a week. That's got to have some benefit.

It does, one of the biggest barriers to people becoming more active, exercising or training is that they think of Usain Bolt or some musclebound bro squatting half a ton. Actually anything more active than what you are doing now is going to help.

10K steps? Fantastic. Short runs at a pace barely quicker than walking? Excellent. Lifting a little more than you did the last time even if it's fraction of the weight you see in gym bro videos? Even better.

The most important thing is consistency. You have to do these things regularly over time, then you compound the benefits. Your 10K steps may turn into a short run, which becomes easy over time, then maybe you're running a little bit longer or faster. Maybe you go from squatting body weight to 1 and a quarter, 1 and a half times your bodyweight? Maybe you add deadlifts and presses to your routine. After a few months you are well on your way and you're feeling it. Now think of where you'll be if you keep it up for a few years?

A common complaint is "I can't spare the time to do these things". I promise you if you do these things consistently you'll feel the benefits and that soon flips to "I can't afford NOT to do these things.". You'll be happier, sleep better, enjoy better sexual performance, look better in swimming gear and feel like less of a loser.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
A common complaint is "I can't spare the time to do these things". I promise you if you do these things consistently you'll feel the benefits and that soon flips to "I can't afford NOT to do these things.". You'll be happier, sleep better, enjoy better sexual performance, look better in swimming gear and feel like less of a loser.

The 'I haven't got time to go for a walk' excuse doesn't hold much water, when you can buy a slimline walking treadmill and stick in front of your TV of an evening.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
Isn’t it obvious except a whole lot of people thinking this will invalidate their precious degrees?

Depression is your brain chemistry fucking up with you, which is why you cannot make it go away logically. Antidepressants work exactly like this - they block certain receptors in your brain.

Exercise is also proved to release chemicals such as endorphin, Adrenalin, etc. So you are flooding your shit chemistry with good chemistry.

Of course it will work. Think of exercise as a free antidepressant that always works.
 

Batiman

Banned
This is clear as day to me. I have to pump regularly to keep my sanity. When I step into a lazy state it’s when al my stress and anxiety crawls right back to me. It’s also why I love doing labour work and refuse to take lighter roles at work. I gotta keep my blood pumping throughout the day. You can look at it two ways. Hard work or getting paid to workout.

When people at my work move to an office role they instantly put on 20-30 lbs in the following months while thinking they’re saving their back……

I also fully believe this 1-2 hour of exercise a day is bullshit. We’re meant to be moving and working at least half the day. To me its the natural way as humans.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I meant there are negatives. It takes time. It takes serious effort. It can make your body hurt (good pain, but still pain).

The effort part is honestly the biggest negative for most people, it’s hard to get one into the mental space for such excursion when your mentally unwell/depressed/only want to sleep. Obviously it’s the proper thing to be doing, but just want to be realistic that’s it not as simple as saying “I’m going to work out today!” You got to mentally commit.
 
Last edited:

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
This works.

A few years ago I really struggled with depression. It came at a time when I started a new demanding job and I completely stopped going to the gym.

Dragging my ass back to the gym and working out 5-6 days a week was a major contributing factor in beating my depression.

Leg day tomorrow and I can't wait!
 

Mistake

Member
They're a god's send to many people, for depression - and off label use as well. I've been on amitriptyline for a long time for tinnitus and it helps me both to sleep, and habituate. I know people on them for nerve pain, back problems, and a variety of other issues.

Are you in America? I find more and more that the corrupt US healthcare system foists anti-depressants and benzos off on people when they absolutely shouldn't be on them, because it makes doctors and pharma companies money.
Yeah, US. And you're exactly right. It's part of the larger problem of people getting the care they need. Can't trust what doctors say after we keep going through one medical epidemic after another. I mean seriously, recently the FDA came out and said the active ingredient in OTC decongestants are useless. If you can't trust that, what can you? It makes me sound weird, but I now try to stick with natural solutions as much as possible
 

Jsisto

Member
I’ve been in retail for almost 20 years. Anecdotal, but I would guess it’s probably one of the overall healthiest industries out there because of the physical nature of many of the tasks and being on your feet literally all day. You have light to heavy exercise as well as plenty of walking built into your job. 10k steps a day at work is the norm and often quite a bit more. I really feel for people with desk jobs. I’d lose my mind.
 

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Yup, do pull ups, lift some weights at home or the gym. Walk more, light jogging.

Also important eat well. Healthy nutrition dense food tastes better than Shitdonalds. If you eat junk you'll feel like junk. YouTube can turn you into a pro chef if you spend some time finding the right food channels.

Don't do steroids ever. Don't turn the gym into an obsession either that distracts you from other important things in life, such as fulfilling social interactions with family and friends that also stabilises our chimp brains and makes us live longer.

Turn frustration and anger into positive action. Listen to yourself.
 
Last edited:

-Minsc-

Member
My wife had her time with depression, mental health and insomnia. While she does take medication daily she also walks about 1 hour nearly every day. She has a treadmill and it gets used. The last thing she wants to do is go back to not sleeping.

On another note, I wonder how positive non-assembly line assembly of things can have on mental health? I recently installed flooring in my home and assembling it allowed me to think about how it went all together. Being in my own home I wasn't worried as much about getting it done on a "homeowner is moving in" deadline. Allowing myself to make mistakes and fix them was great. On top of that, allowing some obscure mistakes stay in a nook that only I would realistically notice. Doing a good job while letting go of being perfect.

The exercise is likely one part of becoming healthier. Another is changing ones attitude toward people, things and situations. Letting go of being a victim. Forgiving people. Forgiving ones self. Accepting that while one my never reach a certain goal, the journey toward it will bring great rewards. Change is slow.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
My wife had her time with depression, mental health and insomnia. While she does take medication daily she also walks about 1 hour nearly every day. She has a treadmill and it gets used. The last thing she wants to do is go back to not sleeping.

On another note, I wonder how positive non-assembly line assembly of things can have on mental health? I recently installed flooring in my home and assembling it allowed me to think about how it went all together. Being in my own home I wasn't worried as much about getting it done on a "homeowner is moving in" deadline. Allowing myself to make mistakes and fix them was great. On top of that, allowing some obscure mistakes stay in a nook that only I would realistically notice. Doing a good job while letting go of being perfect.

The exercise is likely one part of becoming healthier. Another is changing ones attitude toward people, things and situations. Letting go of being a victim. Forgiving people. Forgiving ones self. Accepting that while one my never reach a certain goal, the journey toward it will bring great rewards. Change is slow.
Not sleeping enough can really mess you up. I spent most of my teens through my thirties running on about 4 hours a night and when I no longer needed to work at the pace I was working and slowed down I developed insomnia. My health declined dramatically, both mental and physical. I ended up having to go though a routine with medication and sleep therapy to teach myself how to sleep since I hadn't done it consistently for decades. Was pretty amazing how much of my chronic pain disappeared simply by sleeping at least 7 hours per night.
 

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Last edited:
This isn't surprising to hear. Whenever somebody has a breakdown or makes a thread complaining about tough times then the first suggestion is "hit the gym" in every single one.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
A common complaint is "I can't spare the time to do these things". I promise you if you do these things consistently you'll feel the benefits and that soon flips to "I can't afford NOT to do these things.". You'll be happier, sleep better, enjoy better sexual performance, look better in swimming gear and feel like less of a loser.
People are just lazy. And the internet age just encourages it because everyone can with at home working, shopping, surfing the net and texting and watching movies. It just encourages being a hermit with zero activity and contact with people. So that basically cuts out anything active outside. The possibility is the recluse orders from Amazon home weights and a treadmill, but chances are this kind of lifestyle would rather watch NF.

Out of all the fit people you know, the chances of them having a hermit lifestyle probably edges to 0%. They are out there doing shit at the gym or jogging around the block etc... I dont think there's too many good looking fit or ripped people isolating themselves in their basement never going outside to show off to people their bod.

You always hear about the work out 3 times a day at 20 minutes. Thats an hour. If somebody cant find 1 hr per week in a 168 hr week to do something active they are liars. Even the busiest guy in the world can find an hr. Fuck, in the summer heat you got to mow the lawn and pick weeds every couple weeks anyway so youre already halfway there during those weeks. So just do something else active to top it off and you got the hour.
 
Last edited:

22:22:22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
Especially or rather also incorporating mind muscle connection when taking and practicing it seriously.
 

The Skull

Member
I got into strength training around 10 years ago and it had such a tremendous effect not only on my physical health but mental health. Works absolute wonders for people I've helped get into it.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Looking at what people have written, I agree with all.

I'm no gym buff or anything like that. But I'm happy with what I have so I dont give a shit. I accept what I look like and people are the same back to me. Thats not to say I dont want to lose another 10-15 lbs which can realistically be done to get me back to my precovid holding weight. But I know realistically based on what I'm happy eating and my physical activity (not much aside from walking here and there and doing chores around the house) that reasonable goals are set. Trying to beeline to a goal like "I wanna get back to what I weighed at high school graduation" is not realistic for me or most people I bet.

- Start small by eating a bit less. I've lost 10+ lbs since the summer just eating a bit better. Im still eating junk, but I've just ate a bit less junk. I replaced some of the carbs with bowl of salad. So instead of a big plate of meat and carbs, its now meat and 50/50 carbs and salad. Thats all. Hey if I can keep doing what I'm doing you never know. By the time 2024 rolls around I might accomplish it and all I did is regularly eat the past half year some romaine lettuce, tomatoes, cucumbers and a few kinds of salad dressing I like (sesame is always a good one).

- Dont try to overdue it being an Olympic athlete. There's been times i tried getting into working out. I did the same SJRB did. I bought some adjustable dumbbells. I also bought a jump rope and a big pad on the ground because my plan was to copy some YT video push up and sit up advice. I admit it never went much anywhere, but the total cost was probably $100. No gym membership needed. In the past I also tried jogging around a track at nearby high schools. So nothing overall thats costly, requires driving to a gym or being embarrassed working out in front of people. If you dont want to do anything like this, then just go for walks to get your mind off stuff. Instead of loading up the car trunk with all the groceries. Just buy the heavy shit with your car. Then do some nice walks with ONE nylon bag and buy some small stuff you can carry back comfortably with one hand/shoulder
 

Tams

Member
Exercise does wonders.

And yes, an active job does help prevent depression.

My worst days are the ones I have off and all I do is be online, play games, read books, etc., usually inside. The occasional day, especially if the weather is shite is comfy and all, but can quickly spiral into a procrastinating mess.

I worked 12 hours today, on my feet (more than 400% of my daily goal according to watch). Sure, I'm shattered, but I also feel great.
 

Rat Rage

Member
Exercise is just amazing. I pray to the god of weights often, and he's always been great to me. Hiking with people/friends is also amazing.
 

Jsisto

Member

Anyone looking into starting a fitness journey, I can’t recommend this book highly enough. Changed my life. All bodyweight exercises through a simple progression based program. No gym necessary, just need something to do pull-ups on. Starts out with simple, high volume variations of all 6 to build muscle and tendon strength before moving onto to the standard variations, and ultimately unilateral variations. Deals with push-ups, pull ups, squats, leg raises, handstands, and bridges. (Bridges are amazing by the way and so good for your back.). I’ll swear by bodyweight exercises til my last days. It’s also a legitimately educational and funny book.
 

Tams

Member
I can't speak for people who are chronically serious depressed, but from my anecdotal experience, medication is not the answer.

At best, you are going to be okay when you are on the medication, but when you stop... And it's not like hair loss, or high blood pressure. There are absolutely ways to at least dull the depression without resorting to what are effectively short term highs from drugs.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member

Anyone looking into starting a fitness journey, I can’t recommend this book highly enough. Changed my life. All bodyweight exercises through a simple progression based program. No gym necessary, just need something to do pull-ups on. Starts out with simple, high volume variations of all 6 to build muscle and tendon strength before moving onto to the standard variations, and ultimately unilateral variations. Deals with push-ups, pull ups, squats, leg raises, handstands, and bridges. (Bridges are amazing by the way and so good for your back.). I’ll swear by bodyweight exercises til my last days. It’s also a legitimately educational and funny book.
I did this, it's legit, even without the "convict" theme.
 
Top Bottom