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Report: China considering "limited war" to expel Indian troops from Bhutan border

snap

Banned
LOL at people saying 'India has an economic mess and hence wants war" and what not.
First, what economic mess? You mean either the fastest or second fastest growing major economy in the world? The one with highest FII? The one which just last year became 7th biggest economy in the world (nominal) and is the third biggest (PPP)?

And no India isnt going in 'hyper-nationalism' mode or anything. China has continuously pushed both India and other countries by intruding inside their borders, making infrastructure in disputed areas and what not. Only this time they have a big enough country which is also standing up for itself and not backing down.

Its actually almost funny seeing China not having any response to India in the matter. They thought India would back down like always, except it didnt and has no intention of doing so. Chinese know that they simply cant win a war in that theatre with India. India has immense advantages, both numerical and natural, in this theatre. Now China is contorting itself, promising fire and brimstone when they dont have shit. Just last week China sent a 15 page document to India, demanding all kinds of stuff and promising all kinds of retribution, to which India's one liner reply was basically- 'fuck off'.

Full Disclosure: I don't live in India and don't really follow what's going on there, but being of Indian heritage and with parents who do get Indian news channels and do try to follow what's going on there, the second-hand impression I get from them is that the BJP are making a real mess of things, both socially and economically, using dogwhistles and open Facist tendencies to drum up support. Again, this is all second hand.

Yes and China kicked India's ass. Probably why India is smarting for a new war because they are still sore about that loss. Not sure why China is the aggressor here when they are just building a road. Not exactly moving troops in like what India did.

It's in a region disputed between China and Bhutan. Bhutan and India have very strong defensive ties, to the point where they have an "attack on one is an attack on both" treaty. On top of this, the geography of that region apparently makes it a weak point in the Indian border, and so China building a road towards a Bhutan army encampment (and on the other side of that encampment, the Indian border) raised all sorts of alarms within the Indian defense structure.
 

sflufan

Banned
Yes and China kicked India's ass. Probably why India is smarting for a new war because they are still sore about that loss. Not sure why China is the aggressor here when they are just building a road. Not exactly moving troops in like what India did.

The construction of the road an inherently "aggressive" act as it would permit a faster deployment of Chinese forces during a military confrontation with India.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
From Reddit:

9x5f45cn2ydz.png

China trying to bully others and ignore borders with long international recognition, as per usual.

Check out what they claim is the border east of Bhutan also.
 

snap

Banned
From Reddit:



China trying to bully others and ignore borders with long international recognition, as per usual.

Is google.cn even legit? I thought they weren't allowed to operate in mainland China and operated out of Hong Kong.

Edit: yeah using google.cn just redirects to google.com.hk that image seems faked

Edit 2: Also Google Maps changes languages based on what version you're using, and using maps.google.com.hk shows the disputed border:

 

Shogun413

Member
The construction of the road an inherently "aggressive" act as it would permit a faster deployment of Chinese forces during a military confrontation with India.

I'm just pointing out that the Indian media have been extremely aggressive in calls for military action. I don't see how sending troops is not an escalation of the conflict over road building. Dialogue and diplomacy should always be the first step, not sending in troops.
 

FStubbs

Member
I'm sure if that happened, Pakistan would immediately join in on China's side. Nepal and Bhutan would be caught in the middle. Who knows what happens with Bangladesh.

Yeah, that's basically World War 3 even if no other countries get involved due to the sheer populations of these places.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
indian here and while bjp is making a mess of things on some fronts. Characterizing this as a hyper partisan thing used to distract from the economic and social mess in india is ridiculous.

This is very much a strategic move by china and the standoff is due to a long standing border issues in the region. It just normally doesnt escalate to this level. However I'm pretty sure we wont go any further than a skirmish. Both countries have nukes ..
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Is google.cn even legit? I thought they weren't allowed to operate in mainland China and operated out of Hong Kong.

Edit: yeah using google.cn just redirects to google.com.hk that image seems faked

No, it's legit. May only be accessible from mainland China normally though.

It's also the real borders which China claims. This is what they show their population.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
I'm just pointing out that the Indian media have been extremely aggressive in calls for military action. I don't see how sending troops is not an escalation of the conflict over road building. Dialogue and diplomacy should always be the first step, not sending in troops.

Have you read about the situation? Such contrustion threatens to let china gain a significant advantage and allow it to push in trooops into a thin and weakly defended part of india which would cut off a larger region of india to the east.

And there are long standing border disputes on the issue. Yes dialogue and diplomacy are important but fuck no Im not letting them just walk over us on this. Troops positining is very much okay. Then of course talk and try to avoid a fight.
 

Ogodei

Member
Is there even a thing as limited war? Once there's blood is their hand it is not something you can stop. Other country will also take advantage of this opportunities.

I guess China really want to test its military since it never had a chance to fight a battle with it.

Azerbaijan and Armenia had a limited war last year, which you didn't hear about because there was a week or so of shooting in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh territory and then it went away.
 

Shogun413

Member
From Reddit:



China trying to bully others and ignore borders with long international recognition, as per usual.

Check out what they claim is the border east of Bhutan also.

Not sure where it has been a internationally recognized border when it has been in dispute since the 1800s. India has a history with border escalation as well, ie. Kashmir.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Full Disclosure: I don't live in India and don't really follow what's going on there, but being of Indian heritage and with parents who do get Indian news channels and do try to follow what's going on there, the second-hand impression I get from them is that the BJP are making a real mess of things, both socially and economically, using dogwhistles and open Facist tendencies to drum up support. Again, this is all second hand.

Its a very complicated topic so its hard to do justice, but the basic gist is that there are no fence sitters. For close to 60 years the Congress mollycoddled the minorities (especially Muslim) that it drove most Hindus towards the other extreme. Some of the laws policies of Congress went as far as being directly anti-hindu (RTE, the proposed communal act, handling of Pandit exodus from kashmir, handling of Godhra train burning..the list goes on). And the more the Hindus protested and drifted towards BJP, the more Congress went towards minorities. In the end the situation became so that most of the Hindus deserted the Congress and went with BJP (and hence the complete rout of Congress from almost whole India). Nevertheless Congress has had control over the media, state institutions, universities and much more in its 60 years of rule and that continues to a substantial extent. The media has almost become the third arm of Congress in opposing the BJP.

So basically most of the Indians have gone for BJP and hate Congress to the core. Ones with Congress hate the BJP for taking the power they thought they would always have and fan the fires, often via media, in hoping they would come back to power or at least damage the reputation of BJP. Each group hates the other to the core.

Obviously the summary doesnt contain the nuances and the issue is far far more complicated. The media has its own narrative (be it Indian or western) and serves what it wants to portray. The narrative of 'Hindus killing Muslims' is just that, a narrative. In India there are bound to be clashes between 2 people of different communities. If a Muslim dies, be it for any reason, the narrative gets made. Hindus too die at the hands of Muslims for various reasons, but there is no narrative to be made there.
 

sflufan

Banned
Azerbaijan and Armenia had a limited war last year, which you didn't hear about because there was a week or so of shooting in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh territory and then it went away.

While that is very much true, the stakes are a bit "higher" in this situation.
 

snap

Banned
Not sure where it has been a internationally recognized border when it has been in dispute since the 1800s. India has a history with border escalation as well, ie. Kashmir.

according to one of the links someone shared above it all stems from an 1890 treaty between the british empire and china.

basically it set the border to be the top of a mountain ridge and end at a specific geographical point, but that geographical point doesn't connect with that mountain ridge, which is likely due to bad geographical work back then, but other records state that another point by a different name had the name of the point mentioned in the treaty.

it's quite a mess.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
This is a separate issue, but looking at that map, I did not realize what a huge chunk of India China claims, out to the east of Bhutan. That seems crazy.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Not sure where it has been a internationally recognized border when it has been in dispute since the 1800s. India has a history with border escalation as well, ie. Kashmir.

In the east, the world has recognised the McMahon line for over one hundred years. It's also been the line of control there, more or less, for ages.
 

Shogun413

Member
Have you read about the situation? Such contrustion threatens to let china gain a significant advantage and allow it to push in trooops into a thin and weakly defended part of india which would cut off a larger region of india to the east.

And there are long standing border disputes on the issue. Yes dialogue and diplomacy are important but fuck no Im not letting them just walk over us on this. Troops positining is very much okay. Then of course talk and try to avoid a fight.

I'm sure from China's perspective they are just guarding against Indian forces in Bhutan and rapid military construction there over the past few years.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
Its a very complicated topic so its hard to do justice, but the basic gist is that there are no fence sitters. For close to 60 years the Congress mollycoddled the minorities (especially Muslim) that it drove most Hindus towards the other extreme. Some of the laws policies of Congress went as far as being directly anti-hindu (RTE, the proposed communal act, handling of Pandit exodus from kashmir, handling of Godhra train burning..the list goes on). And the more the Hindus protested and drifted towards BJP, the more Congress went towards minorities. In the end the situation became so that most of the Hindus deserted the Congress and went with BJP (and hence the complete rout of Congress from almost whole India). Nevertheless Congress has had control over the media, state institutions, universities and much more in its 60 years of rule and that continues to a substantial extent. The media has almost become the third arm of Congress in opposing the BJP.

So basically most of the Indians have gone for BJP and hate Congress to the core. Ones with Congress hate the BJP for taking the power they thought they would always have and fan the fires, often via media, in hoping they would come back to power or at least damage the reputation of BJP. Each group hates the other to the core.

Obviously the summary doesnt contain the nuances and the issue is far far more complicated. The media has its own narrative (be it Indian or western) and serves what it wants to portray. The narrative of 'Hindus killing Muslims' is just that, a narrative. In India there are bound to be clashes between 2 people of different communities. If a Muslim dies, be it for any reason, the narrative gets made. Hindus too die at the hands of Muslims for various reasons, but there is no narrative to be made there.

ridiculous weve had sectarian issues for ages and continue to do. And the left and media in india try and protect the minotrities in india simply because that needs to be done the minorities need protection against majority rule. Having said that such issues have existed in india for ages and while worse right now this china thing is unrelated to it. The govt didnt suddently make china build that stupid road.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
I'm sure from China's perspective they are just guarding against Indian forces in Bhutan and rapid military construction there over the past few years.

china is the one who built that road. You cant expect a country to sit around while others build critical infrastructure right upto disputed border regions.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Not sure where it has been a internationally recognized border when it has been in dispute since the 1800s. India has a history with border escalation as well, ie. Kashmir.

Border escalation? What border escalation? It was Pakistan which invaded Kashmir. It did the same thing in 1999. GTFO with the false information. Which other country has India invaded?

And, once again, please tell me who was accompanying the persons building the road in the area? No sir, only peaceful construction workers only, in an area where no one lives and the only use of a road is for the military.
 

snap

Banned
Its a very complicated topic so its hard to do justice, but the basic gist is that there are no fence sitters. For close to 60 years the Congress mollycoddled the minorities (especially Muslim) that it drove most Hindus towards the other extreme. Some of the laws policies of Congress went as far as being directly anti-hindu (RTE, the proposed communal act, handling of Pandit exodus from kashmir, handling of Godhra train burning..the list goes on). And the more the Hindus protested and drifted towards BJP, the more Congress went towards minorities. In the end the situation became so that most of the Hindus deserted the Congress and went with BJP (and hence the complete rout of Congress from almost whole India). Nevertheless Congress has had control over the media, state institutions, universities and much more in its 60 years of rule and that continues to a substantial extent. The media has almost become the third arm of Congress in opposing the BJP.

So basically most of the Indians have gone for BJP and hate Congress to the core. Ones with Congress hate the BJP for taking the power they thought they would always have and fan the fires, often via media, in hoping they would come back to power or at least damage the reputation of BJP. Each group hates the other to the core.

Obviously the summary doesnt contain the nuances and the issue is far far more complicated. The media has its own narrative (be it Indian or western) and serves what it wants to portray. The narrative of 'Hindus killing Muslims' is just that, a narrative. In India there are bound to be clashes between 2 people of different communities. If a Muslim dies, be it for any reason, the narrative gets made. Hindus too die at the hands of Muslims for various reasons, but there is no narrative to be made there.

again, my impressions are all second hand, and i'll take your post at face value except for the bolded--i understand india has always suffered from pogroms (one of the few stories my grandfather talks about from his army days is how when the pakistan-india split came he and his family was in a caravan heading back to india when muslim extremists ambushed them and in the resulting clash his brother--my great-uncle--was killed) but to just accept these conflicts as a fact of life that you can't do anything about seems like a poor way to handle the situation. the ideal is to move forward and heal wounds, otherwise you end up like israel-palestine where everyone in the world knows that it's a huge mess that nobody's happy with but it gets worse every year.

Pretty sure if you were able to access the mainland Google, that's what they'd force you to see in terms of borders. It's documented elsewhere. Faked image or not.

managed to make it show up on google.cn, and outside of the language difference, it does match that image from reddit. it's weirdly hard to access it, though, i wonder if you can only access it from mainland china or if they do the same thing as they do for me where they just redirect you to google.com.hk . the only way i could get to google.cn was to make a point in bhutan in google.com.hk, and then change the url to google.cn so that it displays the same point on google.cn .
 

Shogun413

Member
china is the one who built that road. You cant expect a country to sit around while others build critical infrastructure right upto disputed border regions.

This is what I'm referring to.

From Wikipedia
Near the disputed area inside Bhutan, India maintains an Indian Military Training Team (IMTRAT) and the Indian Army Corps of Engineers' Border Roads Organisation has built over 1,500 kilometres (930 mi) of roads, airports, helipads, etc for Bhutan's defence and transport.[34][35][36]

From China's viewpoint that is on their border.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
again, my impressions are all second hand, and i'll take your post at face value except for the bolded--i understand india has always suffered from pogroms (one of the few stories my grandfather talks about from his army days is how when the pakistan-india split came he and his family was in a caravan heading back to india when muslim extremists ambushed them and in the resulting clash his brother--my great-uncle--was killed) but to just accept these conflicts as a fact of life that you can't do anything about seems like a poor way to handle the situation. the ideal is to move forward and heal wounds, otherwise you end up like israel-palestine where everyone in the world knows that it's a huge mess that nobody's happy with but it gets worse every year.

I didnt mean, at all, that nothing should be done. Maybe the wording was a little bit confusing in isolation. I only meant it that there are bound to be clashes and a lot of them might not be communal in nature. it happens to both sides but as soon as its a minority which suffers, for whatever reason, media makes it communal and blows it up to eleven. While the same never happens it the victim is a Hindu.
 

snap

Banned
This is what I'm referring to.

From Wikipedia
Near the disputed area inside Bhutan, India maintains an Indian Military Training Team (IMTRAT) and the Indian Army Corps of Engineers' Border Roads Organisation has built over 1,500 kilometres (930 mi) of roads, airports, helipads, etc for Bhutan's defence and transport.[34][35][36]

From China's viewpoint that is on their border.

All of that is done in territory that both sides agree is Indian territory, and as explained above, India views that area as a strategic weakness, hence the development.

China and Bhutan are also still in talks in hammering out these borders, and this was apparently one of the lesser important disputes for both sides. India and China also signed an agreement in 2012 stating that no border dispute will be resolved until all parties involved are happy with the agreement, so for China to ignore that so blatantly is a big deal.

Apparently the Chinese also got within 90 meters of a Bhutan army patrol before they stopped. You can see why both Bhutan and India would freak out over this.


I didnt mean, at all, that nothing should be done. Maybe the wording was a little bit confusing in isolation. I only meant it that there are bound to be clashes and a lot of them might not be communal in nature. it happens to both sides but as soon as its a minority which suffers, for whatever reason, media makes it communal and blows it up to eleven. While the same never happens it the victim is a Hindu.

fair enough
 
Have you read about the situation? Such contrustion threatens to let china gain a significant advantage and allow it to push in trooops into a thin and weakly defended part of india which would cut off a larger region of india to the east.

And there are long standing border disputes on the issue. Yes dialogue and diplomacy are important but fuck no Im not letting them just walk over us on this. Troops positining is very much okay. Then of course talk and try to avoid a fight.

It looks bad for India because the border dispute is in area between Bhutan and China, and India ostensibly has no claim to that area at all. The Chinese military can't back off now because they would look weak if they withdrew due the presence of foreign troops that don't even belong to either side of the contested territory.
 

Shogun413

Member
Border escalation? What border escalation? It was Pakistan which invaded Kashmir. It did the same thing in 1999. GTFO with the false information. Which other country has India invaded?

And, once again, please tell me who was accompanying the persons building the road in the area? No sir, only peaceful construction workers only, in an area where no one lives and the only use of a road is for the military.

I'm referring to the fact that India claims all of Kashmir even though if it was left to the muslim-majority population it would be part of Pakistan. The border is disputed that is all I'm saying.

Also despite China's saber-rattling, they haven't exactly been invading other countries like Russia. Last war was probably with Vietnam and that was in response to Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia.
 

Usobuko

Banned
It is kinda getting worrying. India right now is going through a hyper patriotism wave manufactured by an extreme right wing party in power to distract from the economic mess and sectarian violence that is happening and almost every television channel is out for blood. The TV media wants a war so bad you can almost taste it every time you switch to a news channel.

All the ingredients are there to make a hell of a mess. Fun times. :/

Ah yes, the good old nationalism sentiments among big nations.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It looks bad for India because the border dispute is in area between Bhutan and China, and India ostensibly has no claim to that area at all. The Chinese military can't back off now because they would look weak if they withdrew due the presence of foreign troops that don't even belong to either side of the contested territory.

India isn't claiming the area, they're defending Bhutan with that country's support. China claims parts of Bhutan and built a road there.
 

nOoblet16

Member
It is kinda getting worrying. India right now is going through a hyper patriotism wave manufactured by an extreme right wing party in power to distract from the economic mess and sectarian violence that is happening and almost every television channel is out for blood. The TV media wants a war so bad you can almost taste it every time you switch to a news channel.

All the ingredients are there to make a hell of a mess. Fun times. :/
BJP is not extreme right wing. They have their origins rooted in extreme right wing but the BJP of today is basically centre right.

As for the media, it's the same in every country. What you have in India is very similar to American media.
 

Shogun413

Member
All of that is done in territory that both sides agree is Indian territory, and as explained above, India views that area as a strategic weakness, hence the development.

China and Bhutan are also still in talks in hammering out these borders, and this was apparently one of the lesser important disputes for both sides. India and China also signed an agreement in 2012 stating that no border dispute will be resolved until all parties involved are happy with the agreement, so for China to ignore that so blatantly is a big deal.

Apparently the Chinese also got within 90 meters of a Bhutan army patrol before they stopped. You can see why both Bhutan and India would freak out over this.




fair enough

Well it is said that it is in Bhutan, which is not Indian territory. I understand that Bhutan is an Indian protectorate but I'm just pointing out China's perspective on this. Many people in China feel that this is in response to the rapid military construction in Bhutan by India.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Well it is said that it is in Bhutan, which is not Indian territory. I understand that Bhutan is an Indian protectorate but I'm just pointing out China's perspective on this. Many people in China feel that this is in response to the rapid military construction in Bhutan by India.

Many people in China have no idea what they're talking about. A country of 1.4 billion is building roads inside a tiny Himalayan country that can't defend itself. That's what China is doing, business as usual. India is just defending its ally.

Bhutan is a buffer state, not a protectorate.
 

snap

Banned
Well it is said that it is in Bhutan, which is not Indian territory. I understand that Bhutan is an Indian protectorate but I'm just pointing out China's perspective on this. Many people in China feel that this is in response to the rapid military construction in Bhutan by India.

Even if the Chinese people feel that way, one would hope the Chinese government is more aware of the context.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I'm referring to the fact that India claims all of Kashmir even though if it was left to the muslim-majority population it would be part of Pakistan. The border is disputed that is all I'm saying.

Also despite China's saber-rattling, they haven't exactly been invading other countries like Russia. Last war was probably with Vietnam and that was in response to Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia.
The Kashmir claim is complicated for a reason. The "Muslim majority areas go to Pakistan and rest to India" did not apply to princely states and Kashmir was a princely state with a ruler who opted to side with India. But it's not so simple as that still as the other argument is that he was a British appointed ruler, a figurehead and hence not legit so his say shouldn't have been final say especially considering he was not Muslim. But by the fact is at the end of the day it was the British empire that let these princely states including the more "legit ones" have their status. Cue decades of animosity and aggression and it keeps getting more complicated to the point where both sides just want it because they've been claiming it for decades and don't wanna back down.
 

Shogun413

Member
Many people in China have no idea what they're talking about. A country of 1.4 billion is building roads inside a tiny Himalayan country that can't defend itself. That's what China is doing, business as usual. India is just defending its ally.

Bhutan is a buffer state, not a protectorate.

So what should China be doing when India is rapidly constructing military bases and roads right next to the Chinese border? Any strong nation would not tolerate that, hence the Chinese response. I mean can you imagine how the US would respond if there was a military buildup on its border?
 

bionic77

Member
I am trying to follow this thread but I am in over my head.

From just the first two pages it seems like this is a complicated conflict.
 

Ogodei

Member
While that is very much true, the stakes are a bit "higher" in this situation.

Oh certainly. "Limited War" is a dumb idea because if everyone sticks to their pledge that it's limited, then you waste human lives and a lot of money on nothing, and there's always a chance that the war balloons into a major war because some commander misreads enemy intent.

I was just saying that it does happen more often than you think.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Haven't there been border conflicts between India, China and Pakistan over Kashmir for a long while now?
Yep, for like 60+ years.

3 of the most powerful countries in that region have a long standing beef and they happen to share borders. And no one really wants to look at it seriously and actually solve it, not these three countries and the west least of all.
 

snap

Banned
So what should China be doing when India is rapidly constructing military bases and roads right next to the Chinese border? Any strong nation would not tolerate that, hence the Chinese response. I mean can you imagine how the US would respond if there was a military buildup on its border?

Bring that up in the talks they're having with Bhutan? Bhutan literally has a military base in that area, I would think that's a bigger deal than the construction India is doing on its side of the border. Again, they got within 90 meters of the Bhutan army base, the only way they didn't expect this to cause an issue is complete and utter ineptitude.

I am trying to follow this thread but I am in over my head.

From just the first two pages it seems like this is a complicated conflict.

you have no idea
 

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
China has many enemies in the region because of their territorial aggression which is borderline nuisance at this point. They will never have the international support in case of a war with India other than Pakistan and North Korea of course. India knows this and won't back down.
 

nOoblet16

Member
China has many enemies in the region because of their territorial aggression which is borderline nuisance at this point. They will never have the international support in case of a war with India other than Pakistan and North Korea of course. India knows this and won't back down.
This is absolutely true.
 

snap

Banned
China has many enemies in the region because of their territorial aggression which is borderline nuisance at this point. They will never have the international support in case of a war with India other than Pakistan and North Korea of course. India knows this and won't back down.

I wonder, anyone know how much of a threat Pakistan poses to India these days? I know when Bangladesh split India basically crippled Pakistan's air force in a matter of days and Pakistan didn't have the ground troops to pose any sort of a threat.
 
V

Vilix

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure how some of you would have survived living during the Cold War when nuclear powers frequently battled each other in various countries.

Could you just imagine if they had 24/7 news back then?
 
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