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[Shogun413]

I guess the issue is whether China cares or not. They know that the US won't go to war on India's side over Bhutan. I still think this is all a bunch of useless saber-rattling by both sides fueled by a nationalist media in both countries. I have hope that both sides realize how important trade is and don't risk it over such a small issue. They really just need to all sit down and hash out the border.

You have to realize that when China was weak and the other world powers were strong, they raped and pillaged our country. That is still very fresh in the minds of Chinese people. Not saying what they are doing is right but that is the mindset.

 

[SmartBase]

This is far more interesting then the one-sided SCS malarky, I'm curious to see how China handles a rival that might actually push back.

 

[kmag]

In the east, the world has recognised the McMahon line for over one hundred years. It's also been the line of control there, more or less, for ages.

Ah the British Empire, the one thing it did (other than the killing, the concentration camps, the resource exploitation, the slavery and the famines) was to draw arbitrary lines on map with fuck all local or cultural sensitivity. Telling the 'ethnics' that they belong over there now.

 

[maabus1999]

China has many enemies in the region because of their territorial aggression which is borderline nuisance at this point. They will never have the international support in case of a war with India other than Pakistan and North Korea of course. India knows this and won't back down.

Yes they are on the cusp of expanding and re energizing SEATO if any of these flash points over boils.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

again, my impressions are all second hand, and i'll take your post at face value

Don't, it's sectarian garbage and tantamount to excusing anti-minority violence, especially bringing up the Godhra train burning

BJP is not extreme right wing. They have their origins rooted in extreme right wing but the BJP of today is basically centre right.

As for the media, it's the same in every country. What you have in India is very similar to American media.

I don't think you can call a party that introduced mandatory nationalistic ceremonies in cinemas, jails student protesters for "sedition", and excuses anti-minority violence as "centre right"

 

[sflufan]

China has many enemies in the region because of their territorial aggression which is borderline nuisance at this point. They will never have the international support in case of a war with India other than Pakistan and North Korea of course. India knows this and won't back down.

Beijing will also be supported by Myanmar with whom it has a very good relationship.

 

[snap]

Don't, it's sectarian garbage and tantamount to excusing anti-minority violence, especially bringing up the Godhra train burning

I regret not reading more about Indian history and the Indian political climate. I can name specific military actions and spy operations in World War II and leading into the Cold War but I didn't even know the Godhra train burning was a thing until today.

 

[Jackpot]

Yes and China kicked India's ass. Probably why India is smarting for a new war because they are still sore about that loss.

You have to realize that when China was weak and the other world powers were strong, they raped and pillaged our country. That is still very fresh in the minds of Chinese people. Not saying what they are doing is right but that is the mindset.

This level of reasoning reads like babbie's first internet argument.

 

[petran79]

No it's not. They are establishing that nukes are not on the table.


What's interesting about the political makeup of current Asia is that it is somewhat reminiscent of Europe pre-NATO. Nearly all of Europe's major powers are united under one military body which makes war between these powers extremely unlikely. While they aren't operating as one they are far more connected to each other than they ever have been. A significant turn from the status quo of Europe since maybe the Dark Ages. Asia at this moment has no such uniting force and also has several of the world's largest forces,nuclear armed, and many ongoing disputes. I don't think people today are very used to the sparring of rival, somewhat equivalent nations.

Turkey and Greece had various small conflicts and they almost went to war during the Cyprus conflict in 1974. Still, their relations are much better than that between Asian countries.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

I regret not reading more about Indian history and the Indian political climate. I can name specific military actions and spy operations in World War II and leading into the Cold War but I didn't even know the Godhra train burning was a thing until today.

It was a train full of Hindu pilgrims that caught fire, burning many of them to death. The BJP state government said it was attacked by a mob of Muslims, the central government said it was an accidental fire that started inside the train. Afterwards, there was an anti-Muslim pogrom encouraged by the current Prime Minister that featured assaults, burnings, murders, and rapes. When it's brought up in arguments like this, it's usually to excuse that pogrom as being the result of central government "coddling" Muslims, as it was in that post.

 

[snap]

It was a train full of Hindu pilgrims that caught fire, burning many of them to death. The BJP state government said it was attacked by a mob of Muslims, the central government said it was an accidental fire that started inside the train. Afterwards, there was an anti-Muslim pogrom encouraged by the current Prime Minister that featured assaults, burnings, murders, and rapes. When it's brought up in arguments like this, it's usually to excuse that pogrom as being the result of central government "coddling" Muslims, as it was in that post.

Yeah, reading the Wikipedia entry and this article, it seems like a lot of people blamed a Muslim mob but the forensics point towards the fire starting from within, as in someone on the train started the fire and killed everybody. Like the Tulsa race riots this just ended up in a pogrom where the minorities get the brunt of the violence.

 

[Shogun413]

This level of reasoning reads like babbie's first internet argument.

Just trying to provide some context but thanks for the insightful response.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

Yeah, reading the Wikipedia entry and this article, it seems like a lot of people blamed a Muslim mob but the forensics point towards the fire starting from within, as in someone on the train started the fire and killed everybody. Like the Tulsa race riots this just ended up in a pogrom where the minorities get the brunt of the violence.

Careful, kittoo might accuse you of being "anti-national"

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Ok but isnt china basically telling india to leave the area and THEN theyll consider talks? Which is basically not talks and more of a gtfo

Posturing I believe. Of course neither country can afford to be viewed as weak, at the same time both countries can't afford a war.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

It was a train full of Hindu pilgrims that caught fire, burning many of them to death. The BJP state government said it was attacked by a mob of Muslims, the central government said it was an accidental fire that started inside the train. Afterwards, there was an anti-Muslim pogrom encouraged by the current Prime Minister that featured assaults, burnings, murders, and rapes. When it's brought up in arguments like this, it's usually to excuse that pogrom as being the result of central government "coddling" Muslims, as it was in that post.

Yeah, reading the Wikipedia entry and this article, it seems like a lot of people blamed a Muslim mob but the forensics point towards the fire starting from within, as in someone on the train started the fire and killed everybody. Like the Tulsa race riots this just ended up in a pogrom where the minorities get the brunt of the violence.

Not only was it proven that it was a planned conspiracy, people were convicted for it. Shit was terrible, the train burning and the hateful things that happened afterwards.

But saying how the things went down is not know is false. The court already ruled that the only investigation (which was a parliament committee and not the police investigation) that said the fire could happen from inside was more of a political ploy.

The court convicted some 30 people for the burning, lot of people were acquitted due to lack of evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhra_train_burning#Trial_and_court_verdict

Banerjee's findings were challenged in the Gujarat High Court by Neelkanth Tulsidas Bhatia, who was injured in the incident. In October 2006, the court quashed the conclusions of Banerjee and ruled that the investigation was "unconstitutional, illegal and null and void", declared its formation to be a "colourable exercise of power with mala fide intentions", and its argument of accidental fire "opposed to the prima facie accepted facts on record." The High Court also directed that the report should not be tabled in the Parliament.

 

[nOoblet16]

Don't, it's sectarian garbage and tantamount to excusing anti-minority violence, especially bringing up the Godhra train burning



I don't think you can call a party that introduced mandatory nationalistic ceremonies in cinemas, jails student protesters for "sedition", and excuses anti-minority violence as "centre right"

Uh...what nationalistic ceremonies ? National anthem before movies ? How about the fact that it existed before BJP came in. I've been living outside of India for 6.5 years and even when I used to all those years ago it was still a thing. Jingoism and national anthem, flag waving stuff has been ingrained into almost every Indian and it's more to do with the culture than anything else.

This is not "extreme right wing", BJP policies are pretty much centre right through and through but this is India we are talking about so there will be variations and off cases now and then due to the number of people involved, the nature of being a federal republic and also due to the presence of few people from back in the day who hold authority/influence....but that's what those are off cases, doesn't mean they have a fascist rule there. Policy wise it looks nothing more than a centre right wing party which is maybe leaning a bit more to the right than its suppose to.

 

[snap]

Uh...what nationalistic ceremonies ? National anthem before movies ? How about the fact that it existed before BJP came in. I've been living outside of India for 6.5 years and even when I used to all those years ago it was still a thing.

This is not "extreme right wing", BJP policies are pretty much centre right through and through but this is India we are talking about so there will be variations and off cases now and then..doesn't mean they have a fascist rule.

I'm assuming these changes are what he's talking about:

Last month India’s Supreme Court ordered all movie theatres to play the national anthem before every film, with an image of the national flag. Cinema patrons have been ordered to stand respectfully during the song; entry and exit from the hall is prohibited. In its ruling — which has been cheered and criticised — the court asserted that hearing the anthem would instil feelings of “patriotism and nationalism”, reflecting “love and respect for the motherland”.

https://www.ft.com/content/609aeb2c-c297-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856354

 

[nOoblet16]

I'm assuming these changes are what he's talking about:



https://www.ft.com/content/609aeb2c-c297-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856354

Meh...none of those are new. National anthem in theatre is something that has existed for decades now. The first instance of this happened was in 1960.

As for the respect for national anthem by standing still, that is actually something that has always existed and is a separate thing on its own. Its something that's covered indirectly in the "Prevention of insults to national honour act 1971". You are expected to do that regardless, it was never exactly a law but it was one of those things for which people would give you funny looks if you didn't do it.

It's all silly and really stupid stuff but none of it is something that the BJP pulled out of their ass. If one wants to speak up against it then they should speak against that act from 1971 and the years of jingoism forced down the population via media, school and pretty much anything...because that's the root of the problem. This is just after effect.

 

[ebullientprism]

Meh...none of those are new. National anthem in theatre is something that has existed for over a decade now. The first instance of this happened was in 1960.

Bullshit. It is absolutely new. I have been going to theater here for over 2 decades. I had never seen the national anthem being played before movies till now. This "patriotism enforcement" started with the current government.

I've been living outside of India for 6.5 years and even when I used to all those years ago it was still a thing.

LOL that explains your ignorance.

 

[fabricated backlash]

By "interesting", you mean World War 3?

And both India and China got nukes.

Stop fear mongering. China has had numerous border disputes and even small scale engagements over the last 50 years.

 

[nOoblet16]

Bullshit. It is absolutely new. I have been going to theater here for over 2 decades. I had never seen the national anthem being played before movies till now. This "patriotism enforcement" started with the current government.



LOL that explains your ignorance.

Did you even like...read ?


I said even when I was living in India 6.5 years ago every single theatre in my town did it. Just because it didn't exist in your city doesn't mean it's bullshit. Every single movie I've seen in India in my home town in past 15 years has had a national anthem at start (including the times I've been back in the past 6.5 years..which is atleast one visit per year)

And it's funny that you call me ignorant when you yourself aren't aware of the fact that it's been a thing for decades. Like you wanna tell me how this is happening in a video from 2015 if it is absolutely new ? or how about 2013? or how about 2011?

It wasn't a law, nor did it happen everywhere (because it wasn't a law), but it doesn't mean it didn't exist,

 

[ebullientprism]

It wasn't a law, nor did it happen everywhere (because it wasn't a law), but it doesn't mean it didn't exist,

The lack of self awareness is staggering.

 

[nOoblet16]

The lack of self awareness is staggering.

Dude I just posted 3 links going back 6 years to prove you wrong, that what I said wasn't bullshit i.e. national anthem being played in theatres is something that's been going on for years.

And all you have is making an ad homennium remark that doesn't even make sense?


Edit: My remark was specifically about national anthem being played in theatre, not whether it was always a law...and your response was to the former otherwise why would you bring up that you've never seen it happen once in past 20 years.

Also your tone is honestly disgusting, the first word of your first response ever to me is "bullshit" and you call me ignorant in the same post without fact checking. Shame on you!

 

[Pancake Mix]

So what should China be doing when India is rapidly constructing military bases and roads right next to the Chinese border?

China constantly does that to India, and now they're bullying a small sovereign state that's allied with India and acts as a helpful buffer.

Ah the British Empire, the one thing it did (other than the killing, the concentration camps, the resource exploitation, the slavery and the famines) was to draw arbitrary lines on map with fuck all local or cultural sensitivity. Telling the 'ethnics' that they belong over there now.

Really, China? You think China cares any more about cultural sensitivity?

 

[Shogun413]

China constantly does that to India, and now they're bullying a small sovereign state that's allied with India and acts as a helpful buffer.

How is Bhutan a buffer when India has troops and military bases there? Buffer implies that it is neutral ground between India and China, not one side massing troops and constructing military roads and bases.

 

[andythinkpad]

China likes to threaten with war via the Global Times. Doesn't mean they are really prepared to.

Last time China went to "limited war" with Vietnam, Global Times didn't exist.

 

[snap]

Meh...none of those are new. National anthem in theatre is something that has existed for decades now. The first instance of this happened was in 1960.

As for the respect for national anthem by standing still, that is actually something that has always existed and is a separate thing on its own. Its something that's covered indirectly in the "Prevention of insults to national honour act 1971". You are expected to do that regardless, it was never exactly a law but it was one of those things for which people would give you funny looks if you didn't do it.

It's all silly and really stupid stuff but none of it is something that the BJP pulled out of their ass. If one wants to speak up against it then they should speak against that act from 1971 and the years of jingoism forced down the population via media, school and pretty much anything...because that's the root of the problem. This is just after effect.

there's a meaningful difference between "we want you to do this but when push comes to shove it's optional" and "it is now mandatory"

literally in america they had a supreme court case over this (whether children were forced to salute the flag or stand up during the pledge of allegiance).

the court sided with the defendants saying that it's optional.

plus, justifying the changes BJP made by saying "well cultural changes over decades back up their policies" is not a great argument against the idea that they're pushing policies that aren't exactly moderate. the cultural vilification of hispanic immigrants here in the us has been building for several decades, but that does not justify trump policies to ramp up ice raids and deport as many as possible.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Is there even a thing as limited war? Once there's blood is their hand it is not something you can stop. Other country will also take advantage of this opportunities.

Limited in terms of objectives, resources. This is the type of war that pretty much every major power has fought since WW2.

 

[andythinkpad]

This is far more interesting then the one-sided SCS malarky, I'm curious to see how China handles a rival that might actually push back.

China will do exactly what India is doing, but in the west side of the Sino-India border, where it's actually strategic important.

 

[Bastables]

Was there a war where the US fought Soviet Soldiers directly?

The likes of Vietnam, Afghanistan,Congo etc were fought through proxies but I don't recall direct confrontations between the two.

The closest was the Cuban missile crisis but that WAS going to cause WW3.

Korean war had US and Soviet pilots kill each other.

 

[Lautaro]

The only way I see two huge military powers making a limited war is by using proxies. And even in that case there's risk of escalation.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Korean war had US and Soviet pilots kill each other.

So did Vietnam, but it was clandestine and not acknowledged by either side.

 

[Ensirius]

This sounds terrifying to me

 

[Fallout-NL]

I'm not sure how some of you would have survived living during the Cold War when nuclear powers frequently battled each other in various countries.

Well, those were proxy wars, but even that didn't stop people from thinking the world was ending.

 

[sflufan]

Korean war had US and Soviet pilots kill each other.

True, but it wasn't "official" Soviet involvement - it was Soviet pilots flying North Korean MiGs.

Now, there have been "official" shootdowns of US/Soviet aircraft by the other side during the Cold War as can be seen in the table in this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-t...etween_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_United_States

 

[andythinkpad]

There is a lot of Chinese investment in India. India is an important market for them. OPPO, Vivo, Gionee etc are doing extremely well here. Trade balance is hugely in China's favour.

India’s trade deficit with China mounts to $46.56 billion

They stand to lose more if they try anything silly.

It's actually very low in China's scale and rank very low on China's export.

China would like to sell more, espeically in basic influstructure deals.

 

[Blablurn]

Scary times ahead. The propaganda here in China is definitely picking up pace when I check the news.

 

[ambar_hitman]

Bullshit. It is absolutely new. I have been going to theater here for over 2 decades. I had never seen the national anthem being played before movies till now. This "patriotism enforcement" started with the current government.



LOL that explains your ignorance.

The national anthem was played in every theater in Maharashtra state since like 2007-08. Bjp wasn't in power then. I was there and it was ridiculous. And now Supreme Court mandated it. Supreme Court isn't a government body.

 

[ambar_hitman]

I wonder, anyone know how much of a threat Pakistan poses to India these days? I know when Bangladesh split India basically crippled Pakistan's air force in a matter of days and Pakistan didn't have the ground troops to pose any sort of a threat.

Pakistan has nukes. Their economy is shit. A war will make it more shit. India doesn't want war to affect it's economy. Pakistan will lose the war if it ever happens but it will hurt India more. Pakistan has nothing to lose but India has a lot to loose economically. A full fledged India Pakistan war can lead to WW3 and end of the world.

 

[andythinkpad]

Pakistan has nukes. Their economy is shit. A war will make it more shit. India doesn't want war to affect it's economy. Pakistan will lose the war if it ever happens but it will hurt India more. Pakistan has nothing to lose but India has a lot to loose economically. A full fledged India Pakistan war can lead to WW3 and end of the world.

Haha how? You think Japan and Australia will go to war for India?

 

[ambar_hitman]

Haha how? You think Japan and Australia will go to war for India?

China will get involved. North Korea too. Then USA will step in. Does Japan and Australia really matter once they step in?

 

[andythinkpad]

China will get involved. North Korea too. Then USA will step in. Does Japan and Australia really matter once they step in?

So... you think United States will go to war for India?

 

[jellies_two]

Is this a new thing? War that isn't a war?
Tillerson is considering "preventative war" against North Korea. A war so we don't have ... a war.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Is this a new thing? War that isn't a war?
Tillerson is considering "preventative war" against North Korea. A war so we don't have ... a war.

Its like a little white lie. Not a LIE lie..same kinda thing.

 

[ambar_hitman]

So... you think United States will go to war for India?

No but they will step in when shit is flying around. Custodian of world and what not.

 

[andythinkpad]

No but they will step in when shit is flying around. Custodian of world and what not.

You watched too many Michael Bay movies?

 

[ambar_hitman]

You watched too many Michael Bay movies?

Nope.

 

[.Detective.]

Call of Duty: Limited Warfare

 

[andythinkpad]

Nope.

I will tell you what, Kojima wouldn't write a scenario so stupid.

 

[Noirulus]

China isn't going to do shit. Their army is extremely inexperienced with actual battle. They'd get rekt by India.