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[Rhindle]

Who else, then? It's NPD's data and their business model.

NPD has always taken the position that each manufacturer and publisher owns their own product data, and publication is subject to each manufacturer/publishers consent. The last time they stopped publishing data (in 2007) they explicitly came out and said that they did so at the request of one of the platform holders (who backed down about a week later, and data continued to be released).

Again, none of us know what happened in this instance, so there's no point debating it.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Why are videogames different from music/movies?

We get box office numbers and record sales. Why are games ANY different?

Because only one company spends the money to track them nationally and its possible their most important business partners/clients that buy the information wish to control that information flow.

Im sure Activistion and others dont like how it affects their stock prices when every video game site posts a story saying how Blur or something else bombed last month.

NPD has a monopoly right now.

 

[chubigans]

edit: wrong info!

 

[Fredescu]

Obviously, 3 years is a long time and things may have changed. But this is the best info it appears we would have that would support the argument that one of the "Big 3" is no longer on board with releasing their sales figures to the media and non-subscribed members of NPD.

Good find. Sony it is then.

 

[chubigans]

Good find. Sony it is then.

And what about software? It doesn't explain that. If anything, it gives exclusive games a much harder chance of breaking the top ten.

 

[Fredescu]

And what about software? It doesn't explain that.

NPD saw the chance to express their contempt for the public consumption of their data and jumped on it.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

I did some digging on some info of the 2007 NPD Numbers retraction that lasted only a few days, and multiple times they mention the 'approval of the big 3':

Then when NPD changed it's mind a week later and decided to allow for numbers to still be released, they again mentioned the 'Big 3's approval':

Obviously, 3 years is a long time and things may have changed. But this is the best info it appears we would have that would support the argument that one of the "Big 3" is no longer on board with releasing their sales figures to the media and non-subscribed members of NPD.

Interesting, nice find!

 

[TunaLover]

Any PR from Sony yet?

 

[Thetallywacker]

"As per The NPD Group's policy, NPD hardware and software subscribers are permitted to release sales figures for their respective products - a practice that NPD will continue to support."

Their products, their numbers. Someone was pressing the issue. All they have to do is agree for third party to release the data.

 

[TheRipDizz]

And what about software? It doesn't explain that. If anything, it gives exclusive games a much harder chance of breaking the top ten.

For the big three, I'd say hardware is a MUCH bigger worry for them. Software's easliy spun. There are so many titles and categories to lose the sales relevance in. Hardware is "Us, you and you" and thats it.

 

[a Master Ninja]

And what about software? It doesn't explain that. If anything, it gives exclusive games a much harder chance of breaking the top ten.

When all the games get lumped in (360,PS3) you'll never get a sense of the sales gap between SKUs.

 

[jvm]

NPD has always taken the position that each manufacturer and publisher owns their own product data, and publication is subject to each manufacturer/publishers consent. The last time they stopped publishing data (in 2007) they explicitly came out and said that they did so at the request of one of the platform holders (who backed down about a week later, and data continued to be released).

Again, none of us know what happened in this instance, so there's no point debating it.

The bolded part is interesting to me because one of the big three commented in the past month that they consider the data to be NPD's data.

 

[jedimike]

Except NPD has always had this notion of shutting down more and more public numbers.

We used to get full figures for all games plus extras, then some numbers for the top five, then aggressively shutting down leakers, and now no numbers for anything at all including hardware. NPD has been inching towards this for a while.

Except the numbers we used to get were not public numbers... we used to get numbers because people would disclose numbers from a purchased report. NeoGAF owners had to pull the fully disclosed information and the hardware numbers and top ten was a compromise. It seems that NPD isn't getting enough revenue so they pulled everything.

It's just business... it does cost NPD money to compile the data.

 

[Brazil]

And what about software? It doesn't explain that. If anything, it gives exclusive games a much harder chance of breaking the top ten.

That's not true. I doubt Other M would be in the Top 10 if the different versions of Madden and FIFA were shown separately, for example.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

more like not buying Wiis

This is the first NPD where Wii came behind both PS3 and 360, right? Ouch.

 

[Redbeard]

This is the first NPD where Wii came behind both PS3 and 360, right? Ouch.

Good find. Nintendo it is then.

/Crazies

 

[TheRipDizz]

Except the numbers we used to get were not public numbers... we used to get numbers because people would disclose numbers from a purchased report. NeoGAF owners had to pull the fully disclosed information and the hardware numbers and top ten was a compromise. It seems that NPD isn't getting enough revenue so they pulled everything.

It's just business... it does cost NPD money to compile the data.

Well then who pays for box office numbers or Billboards? And why don't they give a shit if people see what happened?

 

[Gaz Pwnage]

ahh yes, more evidence as to why the games industry is an absolute joke.

Video game crash of 2014 anyone?

 

[Fredescu]

/Crazies

Nintendo publicly released their numbers despite having a very poor showing. Sony remain silent. I don't know what your point is.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Wouldn't part of it be industry perception? What would it tell you about NPD if Sony didn't want to be a part of it? NPD's best intrest is to keep everyone happy.

What would it, exactly?

Sony can't "opt out" of NPD coverage as far as I know. NPD deals directly with retailers, and not just in videogames. Even if Sony threw a hissy fit they would still release the sales of PS3 games to every one of their subscribers, and still include them in their combined SKU lists to the public.

The fact that numbers were pulled the same month Move was released and Sony not releasing any statement tells you all you need to know.

A coincidence. The PS3 outsold the Wii for the what, the second time ever? Sony's not rushing to release numbers because crowing over second place is worthless, especially since their target has always been MS (and vice versa). Their biggest seller of the month was Madden, and I don't think another 300k of "annual multiplat sports game" warrants a press release. It sucks, but I don't think protecting the rep of Move is all that necessary, especially given SCEE's glowing press release today.

Retailers can hold some sort of power over manufacturers but in the case of all three companies they have had products that sell themselves and any retailer who doesn't play ball gets left out big time.

If Walmart dropped any of the 3 consoles it would put a huge dent in their business.

"As per The NPD Group's policy, NPD hardware and software subscribers are permitted to release sales figures for their respective products - a practice that NPD will continue to support."

Their products, their numbers. Someone was pressing the issue. All they have to do is agree for third party to release the data.

Read that again. Notice how NPD is the one granting permission here?

 

[bobbytkc]

I don't get it, the PS3 is actually selling well. Not number 1 in the US, but selling well nonetheless. They just announced they are on track to exceed 15 million this year. So why the conspiracy theories that Sony is the one that pulled the NPD numbers?

If you really want a conspiracy theory, then surely you would have thought that Nintendo would have been more likely since the first month it was outsold by its other 2 competitors also happens to be the first month NDP stopped releasing numbers. And I think even that is a real stretch.

 

[TheRipDizz]

What would it, exactly?

Sony can't "opt out" of NPD coverage as far as I know. NPD deals directly with retailers, and not just in videogames. Even if Sony threw a hissy fit they would still release the sales of PS3 games to every one of their subscribers, and still include them in their combined SKU lists to the public.



A coincidence. The PS3 outsold the Wii for the what, the second time ever? Sony's not rushing to release numbers because crowing over second place is worthless, especially since their target has always been MS (and vice versa). Their biggest seller of the month was Madden, and I don't think another 300k of "annual multiplat sports game" warrants a press release. It sucks, but I don't think protecting the rep of Move is all that necessary, especially given SCEE's glowing press release today.



If Walmart dropped any of the 3 consoles it would put a huge dent in their business.

I don't trust any manufactuer claims coming out of Europe. Looks like the US is soon to be following that path too.

 

[Kagari]

I did a little searching and it looks like we actually agreed that it would chart... I remember someone with a red name didn't think it would chart and I thought it would.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23242761&postcount=253

There we go.

 

[Averon]

I don't get it, the PS3 is actually selling well. Not number 1 in the US, but selling well nonetheless. They just announced they are on track to exceed 15 million this year. So why the conspiracy theories that Sony is the one that pulled the NPD numbers?

If you really want a conspiracy theory, then surely you would have thought that Nintendo would have been more likely since the first month it was outsold by its other 2 competitors also happens to be the first month NDP stopped releasing numbers. And I think even that is a real stretch.

Seriously. If Sony is so embarrassed by their numbers that they pressured NPD to stop releasing them (assuming Sony even have that kind of clout with NPD), why didn't they do this when the PS3 was selling below 100,00 a month back in 2007? I think that would be a hell of a lot more embarrassing than Move not selling gangbusters out the gate.

 

[TheRipDizz]

I don't get it, the PS3 is actually selling well. Not number 1 in the US, but selling well nonetheless. They just announced they are on track to exceed 15 million this year. So why the conspiracy theories that Sony is the one that pulled the NPD numbers?

If you really want a conspiracy theory, then surely you would have thought that Nintendo would have been more likely since the first month it was outsold by its other 2 competitors also happens to be the first month NDP stopped releasing numbers. And I think even that is a real stretch.

Wasn't there a big discrepancy in the numbers Sony claims to have shipped and the totals coming out of the known parts of the world though so where Europe would have had to be selling like twice the amount of units as Japan and the US combined to meet them? I forget exactly. Anyone?

 

[Fredescu]

So why the conspiracy theories that Sony is the one that pulled the NPD numbers?

You could read it as a conspiracy theory, or you could see it as an attempt to shame them into releasing their numbers. I haven't gotten many people on board unfortunately.

 

[Thetallywacker]

I don't get it, the PS3 is actually selling well. Not number 1 in the US, but selling well nonetheless. They just announced they are on track to exceed 15 million this year. So why the conspiracy theories that Sony is the one that pulled the NPD numbers?

If you really want a conspiracy theory, then surely you would have thought that Nintendo would have been more likely since the first month it was outsold by its other 2 competitors also happens to be the first month NDP stopped releasing numbers. And I think even that is a real stretch.

Cause right now if someone from the PlayStation group told you it's raining outside. You would be wise to check before getting an umbrella.

 

[jvm]

Surely this is not the statement from Sony... very weak if it is.
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/7948.html

And here's SCEA Sr. Director of Corporate Communications Patrick Seybold's statement:

"There's no question we're experiencing incredible momentum behind the PS3 this year and this holiday is already stacking up to be another great season of innovation and family fun for consumers. PlayStation Move is performing extremely well at retail and we'll have plenty of new games coming to keep consumers busy this holiday from our first party studios and publishing partners, such as SingStar Dance, The Fight, and Tiger Woods PGA Tour 11."

"With a growing array of content options on PlayStation Network, including today's announcement that Netflix will be natively accesible on all PS3s, we are confident that the PS3 will be the console of choice for many families this holiday and beyond."

I think they go on to link to some dodgy Move sales numbers from vgc.

 

[Rhindle]

Seriously. If Sony is so embarrassed by their numbers that they pressured NPD to stop releasing them (assuming Sony even have that kind of clout with NPD), why didn't they do this when the PS3 was selling below 100,00 a month back in 2007? I think that would be a hell of a lot more embarrassing than Move not selling gangbusters out the gate.

Regardless of whether they instigated this or not, if Sony wants to be transparent, they can consent to publication of their hardware sales, as the other two have done. They have elected not to do so.

 

[Psychotext]

The bolded part is interesting to me because one of the big three commented in the past month that they consider the data to be NPD's data.

There's a difference in viewpoints at play there. The data as a whole belongs to NPD, but the data related to each company's products belongs to the respective companies. That's why the companies can release the data relating to their own products, but not the products of others.

(Else we'd have seen Microsoft posting Nintendo's numbers this month... for instance)

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Surely this is not the statement from Sony... very weak if it is.
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/7948.html

I think they go on to link to some dodgy Move sales numbers from vgc.

Fucking thing sucks.

Sony not making it all that easy to defend them.

 

[Concept17]

...may as well just make NPD a bannable meme at this point. Seriously pointless.

 

[bobbytkc]

Wasn't there a big discrepancy in the numbers Sony claims to have shipped and the totals coming out of the known parts of the world though so where Europe would have had to be selling like twice the amount of units as Japan and the US combined to meet them? I forget exactly. Anyone?

They can't lie in the yearly financial reports. There are such people called auditors.

 

[Psychotext]

They can't lie in the yearly financial reports. There are such people called auditors.

Figures that detailed are never in the yearly reports, it's normally just revenue, profit etc. They legally don't have to break that down into anything more than the performance of each division.

They can choose to provide data on shipments, but it's certainly not a requirement.

 

[Patriotsbball5460]

Surely this is not the statement from Sony... very weak if it is.
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/7948.html

I think they go on to link to some dodgy Move sales numbers from vgc.

Hate this new NPD :lol

.....maybe we will see a Peter Dille/Jack Tretton post on the PS Blog tomorrow as a statement...*fingers crossed*

 

[bobbytkc]

Figures that detailed are never in the yearly reports, it's normally just revenue, profit etc. They legally don't have to break that down into anything more than the performance of each division.

They can choose to provide data on shipments, but it's certainly not a requirement.

People are suggesting that they are lying over their 15 million figure. I am just saying that it would be difficult to lie about that because that number will be inside their yearly reports.

Edit: And I'd have to add that such figures have been in their yearly reports thus far.

 

[shintoki]

Wasn't there a big discrepancy in the numbers Sony claims to have shipped and the totals coming out of the known parts of the world though so where Europe would have had to be selling like twice the amount of units as Japan and the US combined to meet them? I forget exactly. Anyone?

For many titles, that's pretty much it. We got reasonable info from NA and pretty much exact numbers from Japan. But it's always been a big black hole for Europe, which "coincidentally" is where they bundle the most, sell the most, and so forth. It's why their numbers have always been called into question more than the other two. Since Nintendo is selling gangbusters and MS's biggest markets are NA and UK, both which we either get solid info(formerly) or reasonable estimates.

It also started a lot of the shipped = sold shit too.

 

[TheRipDizz]

They can't lie in the yearly financial reports. There are such people called auditors.

No but they can stuff channels to make things look better than they are. It's a temporary tactic, sure, but it's been done before. Now they have most of the world to hide it in. Japan remains the last beacon of light.

 

[bobbytkc]

No but they can stuff channels to make things look better than they are. It's a temporary tactic, sure, but it's been done before. Now they have most of the world to hide it in. Japan remains the last beacon of light.

It has been 4 years into the market. Pretty hard to channel stuff right now since it'll just lead to depressed sales the following quarter and smaller shipment numbers the following year. C'mon, this is just getting stupid. Let's be realistic here.

 

[gcubed]

No but they can stuff channels to make things look better than they are. It's a temporary tactic, sure, but it's been done before. Now they have most of the world to hide it in. Japan remains the last beacon of light.

if they stuff channels the it will be seen in the next quarterly report. When MS stuffed channels their next quarter shipments were very very low. It can't be hidden forever. They can't stuff channels for years, retailers wont order more... this is a stupid argument

 

[Psychotext]

People are suggesting that they are lying over their 15 million figure. I am just saying that it would be difficult to lie about that because that number will be inside their yearly reports.

Edit: And I'd have to add that such figures have been in their yearly reports thus far.

For sure, I'm just saying that particular data doesn't have to be there.

 

[TheRipDizz]

It has been 4 years into the market. Pretty hard to channel stuff right now since it'll just lead to depressed sales the following quarter and smaller shipment numbers the following year. C'mon, this is just getting stupid. Let's be realistic here.

No dude, you're out of touch. It's been done before for multiple reasons. Mainly for investor reasons and as a time buyer.

 

[donny2112]

Dead Rising 2 (Capcom, Xbox 360, PS3, PC)
Mafia II (Take 2 Interactive, Xbox 360, PS3, PC)
Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision Blizzard, Xbox 360, PS3, PC)

It's combined units even with PC. This really is the dark days of PAL Chart threads reborn in the U.S. Hopefully this means NPD threads will eventually get down to two pages per thread, too. :/

 

[Patriotsbball5460]

What is the correlation of Sony "Channel Stuffing" their products, and their possible reason to try and stop the release of NPD numbers?

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Well, if it's all but confirmed that one of the big 3 was the impetus behind this, then evidence points to Sony.

In the US they'd have most reason not to show their figures.

Given they haven't put out their figures/PR where MS and Nintendo have.

Where there's smoke.

 

[Massa]

What is the correlation of Sony "Channel Stuffing" their products, and their possible reason to try and stop the release of NPD numbers?

Simple, they want to hide the NPD numbers in order to commit fraud more easily.

 

[bobbytkc]

What is the correlation of Sony "Channel Stuffing" their products, and their possible reason to try and stop the release of NPD numbers?

None. That's why it is stupid. And they have no reason to do so, since the PS3 is actually selling at a decent clip.

 

[gcubed]

Simple, they want to hide the NPD numbers in order to commit fraud more easily.

which is stupid, and if you believe that, there are a few good topics that you can participate in in the OT

 

[bobbytkc]

Simple, they want to hide the NPD numbers in order to commit fraud more easily.

Channel stuffing is to pull up the numbers. No numbers now, so why would they want to do that?

 

[Averon]

So we go from Sony pressuring NPD to not release numbers to them performing outright fraud :lol