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Some new insights to Blu-ray (comments from HP and Panasonic)
- Thread starter Kleegamefan
- Start date
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DVDs took approximately three years (Mar. 1997 - 2000) before they really started to move.
Yeah freakin' right. There is no way that this is going to happen. HDTV sales are going up because the prices are dropping and the fringe consumer audience is becoming bigger. That just means that people that are somewhat into home theater are buying up the HDTV's. The regular joe six-pack isn't and won't. The vast majority of TVs in the U.S. will still be NTSC for many, many, years.
Yeah freakin' right. There is no way that this is going to happen. HDTV sales are going up because the prices are dropping and the fringe consumer audience is becoming bigger. That just means that people that are somewhat into home theater are buying up the HDTV's. The regular joe six-pack isn't and won't. The vast majority of TVs in the U.S. will still be NTSC for many, many, years.
Wrong.cybamerc said:
if you're going to debate, please post facts not fiction.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/02/05/financial1645EST0236.DTL
In only six years, the DVD player has found a place in half the United States' 100 million households as its price has shrunk tenfold to less than $100. Analysts say the frenetic rate of consumer adoption has set an all-time record -- outpacing sales of the transistor radio, the home computer, the CD player and the television itself.
The pace is 10 times faster than that of CD players and four times as fast as videocassette recorders. It took 13 years for VCRs to hit 30 million units, eight years for CD players and just five years for DVD players, according to the group's research.
It's HIGHLY unlikely blu-ray/hd-dvd will match that.
Of course adoption rate of blu-ray/hidef is a non-issue at this point since both are vaporware as far as purchasing movies from retail stores in the USA
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
I am sure PlayStation 3 will greatly help BRD adoption rate.....I can't think of any DVD player circa 1997 that would have the mass market appeal to sell in the millions on the day of launch....if PS3 is as sucessful as PS2, you could see more than a million BRD players sold on the first day(of the PS3 launch, that is).....
chinch said:
Explain to me how the timeline I suggested for BRD doesn't jive with the timeline you just quoted for DVD. I offered an estimation of growth from 2005-2008. The first 3 yrs, which doesn't really correspond with the 6 yr LTD figures for DVD as of early 2003.
The implication of your argument is that if BRD or HDDVD don't sell at DVD rates then they will somehow fail to match any previous record-setting technologies and be relegated to laserdisc "sub-niche" status. It's quite a leap in logic and a lot more unsupported speculation than what's being offered by proponents of these technologies.
The rapid adoption rate of DVD is actually one of the reasons why studios and CE manufacturers are so interested in a next gen solution. DVD saturation and commodization is approaching much more rapidly than with any format before it, driving profit margins lower faster than ever before as well.
What you don't seem to allow for is the possibility that BRD/HDDVD *complements* the existing CD/DVD normalized marketplace very well. It doesn't have to outpace the adoption rate of either previous format to be of merit to CE manufacturers, studios and consumers alike.
We're still waiting for Star Wars on DVD and only just got Indiana Jones on DVD last year - what's your point? There's still a lot of movies that were released on VHS that either have yet to be rereleased on DVD or have just recently been rereleased.
Hey, I'm one of those consumers who buys plenty of DVDs and I like the technology for how it improves my movie experience. Let's not try to marginalize my interests here as somehow totally unrelated to what the rest of the "public" wants.
kaching said:
I'm slightly puzzled by this statement. Are you saying that the profit margins for studios are lower because of DVD saturation? How is this possible, exactly? I suppose the margins for hardware manufacturers are much lower, and I know why Sony is chomping at the bit to get DVDs replaced before their shared patent expires, especially after their failure to do so with CD's.
Your timeline totally fails to recognize pressure of existing DVD sales that will put blu-ray products in the corner along with SACD/DVD-Audio (if you can even find those in stores).kaching said:
Nevermind the split and pending format war (vhs vs betamax redux?) of hi-def DVD.
If blu-ray and/or hd-dvd quickly becomes a laserdisc niche you'll have $79.99 movies again and an abject failure of both to become a mass-market retail item. At that point the sharks will be circling both formats and another format will arrive to compete with and probably knock out these failed formats. This cycle has proven time and time again in consumer electronics.
Again, if mass-market adoption of hi-def DVD is going to wait to 2008, they're better off delaying both specs, getting on board w/ the DVD forum, hash out manufacturing and prodction capacity, agree with the STUDIOS for full support and then release a hi-def DVD player (and eventual recorder) in late 2006ish timeframe or later.
I'm amused that people would vehemently disagree to this.
ps - we all know they're doing it backwards to circumvent and take control of dvd royalties from the Forum. It's laughable to think PS3 or Xbox2 (for argument sake) will be driving blu-ray movie sales or HD-DVD sales.
It's puzzling because it's nonsensical.DavidDayton said:
More players in peoples hands equals more sales and profits at all levels (retailers, studios, manufacturing plants, etc.)
Sure, studios have sold alot of DVDs and the bulk of their back catalog has been "sold" already. Problem is the most DVD sales come from new movies (ie. Passion just broke records, Nemo, etc.) Old movies traditionally sell poorly (indy, star wars, godfather, etc. aside) in comparison. The back catalogs help people decide to PURCHASE a dvd player but the $$$ comes from new releases.
To eliminate royalty payments among other reasons, Sony & co. are trying to accelerate the transition to HiDef DVD by several years using blu-ray.... many feel they will be rudely met in the marketplace.
Time will tell.
Profit margins are dwindling for studios because the average price of newly released DVDs is going down. And as really cheap DVD hardware becomes more prevalent, the pressure will mount to lower movie prices even further. With DVD encryption already broken several times over, any perception that DVD pricing is artificially kept high will make piracy that much more tempting.
chinch:
> Wrong.
> if you're going to debate, please post facts not fiction.
As I said in another post it took DVD six years to overtake VHS.
> It's HIGHLY unlikely blu-ray/hd-dvd will match that.
Not really. But even so, it's largely irrelevant. What's important is if there's a viable market for HD product - which there will be.
DVD wasn't an instant success either. Initially there wasn't much content to choose from and players were expensive. Joe Average doesn't buy until it can be bought for a hundred bucks or less which happened 3-4 years after launch. But even before that DVD was a viable market. There was money to be made on the early adopters and it will be the same for HD formats.
> If blu-ray and/or hd-dvd quickly becomes a laserdisc niche you'll have $79.99 movies again
Part of the reason why LDs were so expensive was because the disc themselves were expensive to manufacture.
> Wrong.
> if you're going to debate, please post facts not fiction.
As I said in another post it took DVD six years to overtake VHS.
> It's HIGHLY unlikely blu-ray/hd-dvd will match that.
Not really. But even so, it's largely irrelevant. What's important is if there's a viable market for HD product - which there will be.
DVD wasn't an instant success either. Initially there wasn't much content to choose from and players were expensive. Joe Average doesn't buy until it can be bought for a hundred bucks or less which happened 3-4 years after launch. But even before that DVD was a viable market. There was money to be made on the early adopters and it will be the same for HD formats.
> If blu-ray and/or hd-dvd quickly becomes a laserdisc niche you'll have $79.99 movies again
Part of the reason why LDs were so expensive was because the disc themselves were expensive to manufacture.
Look, the jpn hardware makes want this more than the customers and studios at this time.
I'll agree to disagree, but you gotta halt the excuses... this reads like a blu-ray spokesperson Noone in their right mind would wager blu-ray adoption rate will exceed (or come close) to that of DVD.
DVD is going to be hard to displace from the market. If DVD adoption rate was slower, VHS would still be the darling of the studios. The same arguments against DVD will be used against HD, but now they have a tougher act to follow. Even the piracy babble does not change the fortune studios make selling new release blockbusters on DVD to the masses. This will not change anytime soon.
Now, there were laserdisc "boxsets" selling for $129+ (and that is the discounted price) because the market would bear it. Bluray might go the same way... that would really $uck because i'm certainly spoiled by DVD and are not going to pay what i did for lasers in the early 90s. I paid way less for the Alien Quadrilogy than i did for either of the individual Alien(s) boxsets. The mass-market won't pay even 25% more for hidef than they do now for DVD.
I'm curious what the killer app is for bluray however? Imho there is none and it's possibility of non-failure hinges more upon overall hdtv adoption, the economy, studio support, a unified format and pricing than actual customer demand for those who are sick and tired of DVD.
They're staring up at Mt Everest.
I'll agree to disagree, but you gotta halt the excuses... this reads like a blu-ray spokesperson
Noone in their right mind would wager blu-ray adoption rate will exceed (or come close) to that of DVD.DVD is going to be hard to displace from the market. If DVD adoption rate was slower, VHS would still be the darling of the studios. The same arguments against DVD will be used against HD, but now they have a tougher act to follow. Even the piracy babble does not change the fortune studios make selling new release blockbusters on DVD to the masses. This will not change anytime soon.
Now, there were laserdisc "boxsets" selling for $129+ (and that is the discounted price) because the market would bear it. Bluray might go the same way... that would really $uck because i'm certainly spoiled by DVD and are not going to pay what i did for lasers in the early 90s. I paid way less for the Alien Quadrilogy than i did for either of the individual Alien(s) boxsets. The mass-market won't pay even 25% more for hidef than they do now for DVD.
I'm curious what the killer app is for bluray however? Imho there is none and it's possibility of non-failure hinges more upon overall hdtv adoption, the economy, studio support, a unified format and pricing than actual customer demand for those who are sick and tired of DVD.
They're staring up at Mt Everest.
Chinch, you're really not comprehending what people are saying. The only reason why you have to agree to disagree at this point is because you only seem capable of distinguishing between two camps right now, pro-DVD and anti-DVD, and any interest in next-gen optical media means you automatically file that person as anti-DVD.
DVD doesn't need to get displaced from the market for BRD/HDDVD to be successful, just like DVD didn't displace CD and still has a ways to go before it puts VHS in its grave.
Or, to look at it another way, by the time that BRD/HDDVD devices arrive in numbers outside of Japan in late 2005/early 2006, the size of the HDTV owning audience will be at least as large as the current Xbox or GC userbase and larger than the current iPod userbase, yet you don't see any of these markets getting shunned wholesale by companies.
The thing about BRD in particular is that it has been designed from the start to offer recordability from day one. The rewritable BRD spec was completed before the ROM spec. All the focus on the spec war between BRD and HDDVD over pre-recorded content tends to overlook this. Along with CD and DVD backward compatability and the strong likelihood that BRD hardware will also be able to upscale DVD video to 720p or 1080i, having the hardware by itself already offers plenty of value without any further significant investment.
Once you have the hardware, any pre-recorded content that you don't own that gets released in both SD and HD format is fair game for you to pick between. Members of both the BRD and HDDVD camps have said that they won't price HD titles significantly higher than their DVD counterparts. In addition both formats intend to include broadband networking in each device so that additional content associated with specific titles can be downloaded or accessed online without having to use a PC to do it, most likely providing content exclusive to the BRD/HDDVD version of the title. So, beyond just the fact that it's High Def, there are potentially other reasons to pick the the BRD/HDDVD version instead of the DVD version.
DVD doesn't need to get displaced from the market for BRD/HDDVD to be successful, just like DVD didn't displace CD and still has a ways to go before it puts VHS in its grave.
Or, to look at it another way, by the time that BRD/HDDVD devices arrive in numbers outside of Japan in late 2005/early 2006, the size of the HDTV owning audience will be at least as large as the current Xbox or GC userbase and larger than the current iPod userbase, yet you don't see any of these markets getting shunned wholesale by companies.
The thing about BRD in particular is that it has been designed from the start to offer recordability from day one. The rewritable BRD spec was completed before the ROM spec. All the focus on the spec war between BRD and HDDVD over pre-recorded content tends to overlook this. Along with CD and DVD backward compatability and the strong likelihood that BRD hardware will also be able to upscale DVD video to 720p or 1080i, having the hardware by itself already offers plenty of value without any further significant investment.
Once you have the hardware, any pre-recorded content that you don't own that gets released in both SD and HD format is fair game for you to pick between. Members of both the BRD and HDDVD camps have said that they won't price HD titles significantly higher than their DVD counterparts. In addition both formats intend to include broadband networking in each device so that additional content associated with specific titles can be downloaded or accessed online without having to use a PC to do it, most likely providing content exclusive to the BRD/HDDVD version of the title. So, beyond just the fact that it's High Def, there are potentially other reasons to pick the the BRD/HDDVD version instead of the DVD version.
Actually, I think chinch is understanding what is being said, he's just disagreeing. As do I.
DVD had a remarkable take up rate, almost unheard of previously - even compared to CD.
To say as chinch does that "Noone in their right mind would wager blu-ray adoption rate will exceed (or come close) to that of DVD." is simply stating the obvious to any objective bystander.
DVD doesn't have to disappear, but its very existence as a perfectly adequate format for many people will mean that BluRay doesn't have the adoption rate that DVD did.
I'm sure it'll be a success, but if any Consumer Electronics manufacturers are betting the farm on it being *as much* of a success as DVD, as quickly, then they are more stupid than I thought.
Its a simple and attractive thing to do though. Tick the same boxes that a previous success did, and it'll automatically do as well.
DVD had a remarkable take up rate, almost unheard of previously - even compared to CD.
To say as chinch does that "Noone in their right mind would wager blu-ray adoption rate will exceed (or come close) to that of DVD." is simply stating the obvious to any objective bystander.
DVD doesn't have to disappear, but its very existence as a perfectly adequate format for many people will mean that BluRay doesn't have the adoption rate that DVD did.
I'm sure it'll be a success, but if any Consumer Electronics manufacturers are betting the farm on it being *as much* of a success as DVD, as quickly, then they are more stupid than I thought.
Its a simple and attractive thing to do though. Tick the same boxes that a previous success did, and it'll automatically do as well.
mrklaw stated what i'm saying more eloquently than i have
keep in mind that DVDs are entrenched. VHS was NOT entrenched except in the rental marketplace. Studios loved the rental pricing window and didn't grasp people buying DVDs like they did music (LPs, CDs, etc). Remember how Blockbuster fought DVD early... hmmm. Bottom line - people certainly didn't/don't have prerecorded VHS collections like they do DVDs.
CDs are also entrenched in the marketplace. What is ironic is that the logical successor(s) to CD for the past 2 decades have all FAILED relatively speaking. Digital cassette, minidisc, SACD/DVD-Audio, etc.
CD audio will live on for a long time, regardless of what products Sony/etc. dream up.
What is interesting is that what is actually supplimenting CD sales is something that no one anticipated... iTunes and the like digital song downloads for $0.79-0.99.
I see HD-DVD/Blu-ray as being much todo about nothing. There have been many Bernouli and large capacity optical discs over the years that never made it into mass-market entertainment. It is not any stretch of the imagination that HD-DVD and blu-ray might only fight for crumbs of the mass-market entertainment value while DVD continues to flourish and relegate hi-def DVD into the laserdisc niche product (very pricy and not stocked in most stores).
There is no doubt that "indemand", satellite or wireless broadband *could possibly* deliver hi-def programming w/o the dual inventory headaches (DVD and hi-res DVD) to retailers and distribution profit splits. You "blu-ray is gonna rule" guys totally fail to comprehend this.
PS - my zenith 318 dvd player upscales DVD to to 720p1080i over COMPONENT today and is about $149 these days
keep in mind that DVDs are entrenched. VHS was NOT entrenched except in the rental marketplace. Studios loved the rental pricing window and didn't grasp people buying DVDs like they did music (LPs, CDs, etc). Remember how Blockbuster fought DVD early... hmmm. Bottom line - people certainly didn't/don't have prerecorded VHS collections like they do DVDs.
CDs are also entrenched in the marketplace. What is ironic is that the logical successor(s) to CD for the past 2 decades have all FAILED relatively speaking. Digital cassette, minidisc, SACD/DVD-Audio, etc.
CD audio will live on for a long time, regardless of what products Sony/etc. dream up.
What is interesting is that what is actually supplimenting CD sales is something that no one anticipated... iTunes and the like digital song downloads for $0.79-0.99.
I see HD-DVD/Blu-ray as being much todo about nothing. There have been many Bernouli and large capacity optical discs over the years that never made it into mass-market entertainment. It is not any stretch of the imagination that HD-DVD and blu-ray might only fight for crumbs of the mass-market entertainment value while DVD continues to flourish and relegate hi-def DVD into the laserdisc niche product (very pricy and not stocked in most stores).
There is no doubt that "indemand", satellite or wireless broadband *could possibly* deliver hi-def programming w/o the dual inventory headaches (DVD and hi-res DVD) to retailers and distribution profit splits. You "blu-ray is gonna rule" guys totally fail to comprehend this.
PS - my zenith 318 dvd player upscales DVD to to 720p1080i over COMPONENT today and is about $149 these days
Bottom line...cybamerc said:
If bluray sold beyond their wildest expectations, it would still take 6-10 years for HD-DVD/blu-ray to overtake DVD.
THAT IS NOT GOOD (for anyone wanting hi def DVD at reasonbly affordable pricing with good, mass-market availability)
If anyone thinks blu-ray/hd-dvd wiill be priced longterm at current DVD levels i'd like to sell you oceanfront in idaho. not happening.
When people actually see HD content versus SD content there is an extremely easy to recognize jump in quality - that's what will drive people to get HD-DVD or Blu-Ray when they didn't go for higher quality CD replacements.
Like it or not, many people just can't hear audio differences as easily as they can see video differences.
Like it or not, many people just can't hear audio differences as easily as they can see video differences.
now if you guys are calling THIS a success, then we're in agreement
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=18483611
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=18483611
Thanks for the tip, Klee. I was in NYC this weekend and got a chance to stop by the store and they had the setup just like you said. The attendant in charge of the demo wasn't particularly enthused about showing off the setup, so he only showed a clip of Spider-Man 2 at first. I had to ask him if there was anymore demo footage he could show, at which point he reluctantly showed the Lawrence of Arabia footage.Kleegamefan said:
Sitting 8 feet away from a 10 foot screen I couldn't see anything which looked like a compression artifact of any sort in either piece of footage. I had to resist walking up to the screen to look more closely in order not to reveal myself as a complete geek in front of the other couple there for the demo and embarass my wife in the process
If there's enough space on a BRD needed for a feature length movie to show this level of quality with MPEG-2 compression, then I'm not sure I really care anymore about the battles over compression scheme.On the other hand, I didn't find the LoA demo all that "jawdropping". I could tell the difference but the other three people in the room didn't think it was as noticeable and I could see how the resolution and color detail that was lacking in the SD material would hardly be missed by many people, even having seen the side by side comparison. I'm not so sure that the LoA footage they chose is the best way to showcase the differences for the untrained eye. It was mostly long distance camera work of lots of small onscreen
cavalry moving across screen, against lightly textured desert landscapes. I'd tend to think that kind of footage wouldn't give the everyday viewer a clear focus for what's so different about the overall picture.
Crazymoogle
Member
chinch said:
Some points:
-No matter which way you look at it, Bluray will be cheaper than Laserdisc. Sure, if the studios price discs like Laserdisc, the problem remains, but it's solely on their hands this time.
-The PS3 argument is simple; if Sony sells 30 million units, suddenly there are 30 million players on the market. Period. By relying on another market, the format has a way to pursue component cost reduction and promote disc sales no matter how the core market does.
-Upscaling quality is questionable and adds no extra detail. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
If you think Bluray is a silly argument, broadband movie delivery is even more so at the moment. The infrastructure just isn't there for that kind of data thoroughput, and since it's up to a trio of industries (none of which are directly related to film) to improve it (networking, cable, telephone), I just don't see it happening in a big way anytime soon.
They very well should, and need to be. But unless you have a very large installed base of bluray players (not PS3 or whatevers for kids) studios will not undermine their efforts and no doubt prices would be much higher than current DVDs. Some are talking like you'll find $12.99 bluray new releases at Target & Walmart.Crazymoogle said:
Studios looking to get onboard will go by installed base of dedicated players sold, not PS3. Nevermind it might take several years in the USA (again USA is king here for the studios) to get even decent. Bluray right now has only one studio in their pocket.Crazymoogle said:
For example, the studios know you cant sell 2 million copies of "passion" if the bluray market in the USA is 8 million PS3 users and 100,000 standalone blurray players in 2007.
Agreed. One of the staunch bluray people here boasted "upscaling" as a selling point of pricy bluray(hd-dvd) players however. I was pointing out how irrelevant that is for the most part (garbage in garbage out - faradouja notwidstanding)Crazymoogle said:
My point is blu-ray is no lock either. Look, I'd much rather pickup a $200-300 hidef dvd player ASAP and start buying hidef dvds at 10% premium over current DVDs but the point being this is not happenign anytime soon.Crazymoogle said:
The potential format wars alone CAN scare away the masses, even when the pricepoint becomes reasonably mass market.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You assume too much.
chinch, you continue to misinterpret or exaggerate arguments made by others. Whether its deliberate or not, it undermines the credibility of your own arguments.
Listing upscaling as a potential selling point for HD players is not boasting its just an observation. I said nothing about its specific importance, relative to other features. But that doesn't change the fact that BRD/HDDVD camps will probably list it as a selling point to increase the OVERALL perception of package value in CONJUNCTION with the other features offered and that some will actually consider it of value to have, whether their estimation is accurate or not. Considering that CE companies are already trying to sell DVD players whose sole appeal over other DVD players on the market is the ability to upscale the resolution, as you helpfully pointed out, they certainly don't consider the feature totally irrelevant. Nor do the buyers, like yourself, of such players.
Please show me where anyone in this thread is even insinuating this will happen in the early life of BRD/HDDVD.
It's okay, you can say my name. Its easier to type than branding me with a label but I guess it wouldn't advance your rhetoric much.One of the staunch bluray people here boasted "upscaling" as a selling point of pricy bluray(hd-dvd) players however. I was pointing out how irrelevant that is for the most part (garbage in garbage out - faradouja notwidstanding)
Listing upscaling as a potential selling point for HD players is not boasting its just an observation. I said nothing about its specific importance, relative to other features. But that doesn't change the fact that BRD/HDDVD camps will probably list it as a selling point to increase the OVERALL perception of package value in CONJUNCTION with the other features offered and that some will actually consider it of value to have, whether their estimation is accurate or not. Considering that CE companies are already trying to sell DVD players whose sole appeal over other DVD players on the market is the ability to upscale the resolution, as you helpfully pointed out, they certainly don't consider the feature totally irrelevant. Nor do the buyers, like yourself, of such players.
Actually, I thought your point was that blu-ray (and hd-dvd) are "much todo about nothing".
I'm not sure why being able to pick up HD players and media now vs. in a few years at reasonable price should make any difference. It's not like BRD or HDDVD players have been widely available worlwide for years at this point and are still hugely expensive.
Taken out of context..... can you read 3 individual sentances and comprehend a paragraph? Jeez. I guess it's easier to nit-picking wording, than to point out the obvious strategies that will allow bluray to become the fastest growing CE product in history.kaching said:
ROTF.
You know more than Fox, Paramount and the studios 'cause why?Panajev2001a said:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
chinch said:
Sorry mr. Fox + Paramount combined
.Let me help you with a question you will find familiar...
You know more than Columbia and as much as Fox, Paramount and the studios 'cause why?
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Cause....cause....
I don't know, really?
I'm sure cinch will have an enlightening reason why a BRD-playing PS3 won't matter....
I don't know, really?
I'm sure cinch will have an enlightening reason why a BRD-playing PS3 won't matter....
Get your own linesPanajev2001a said:Sorry mr. Fox + Paramount combined
Let me help you with a question you will find familiar...
You know more than Columbia and as much as Fox, Paramount and the studios 'cause why?
Sony has one studio (and imho it's the weakest of them all in terms of back catalog). You fail to post that the other studios CAN break blu-ray with their non-support (as they did divx which circuit city, fox and disney championed early on).
(Hopefully these guys will smarten up before a USA launch debacle and create a unified HD format.)
Don't confuse people buying PS2s in Japan early on BECAUSE of it's DVD compatability with PS2 making DVD a success. That is incorrect and I've never seen this published as a factor.
In Japan, early software sales clearly showed that many people in JPN purchased PS2 players as DVD players initially because the PS2s cost less than standalone DVD there at launch. Nevermind playing the Matrix (dvd movie) WAS the PS2's killer app
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
chinch said:In Japan, early software sales clearly showed that many people in JPN purchased PS2 players as DVD players initially because the PS2s cost less than standalone DVD there at launch. Nevermind playing the Matrix (dvd movie) WAS the PS2's killer app
Awesome.. spectacular... it is early 2000 all over again.
Still, I bet PlayStation 3 will cost less than Sony's other Blu-Ray ROM players
.Did your driving game ever come out here?Fafalada said:He already did
After all, that's what Playstation core audience is isn't it?
20-30 year old kids
I know alot of you guys are all-things-sony but this is not a PS3 issue.
Even assuming PS3 ships with native bluray movie support at $199 in late 2006 it's a non-issue until bluray has 100% studio support, hundreds of titles available and no format wars (ie. only one hidef DVD product/player type sold in the USA).
It's laughable that you guys feel confident that PS3 having blueray = 100% guaranted success for bluray as DVD succesor.
I can understand the (hi-def DVD) excitement, but not the blind loyalty to brand names, etc.
Not yet, but coming soon, really.chinch said:
Going off topic for a moment here, I might be in US later this week, stuck in Baltimore or thereabouts. Any hints from anyone here what I can see/do around there? (It's not a leisure trip, but still, if I do go I'd hate to miss opportunity to play tourist a bit).
NYC isn't all that close apparently
Oh I wasn't implying that, I am not at all convinced BR is a guranteed success. But I think that PS2 did play a majort part in helping DVD growth in some regions (Japan most notably) - and when you had movie releases that came with a sticker "optimized for PS2/PS2 compatible...etc." studious obviously weren't ignoring the PS2 as a toy and not a real DVD player.
Will PS3 be enough for BR to hit mainstream? I don't know, but I DO think that BR chances for success without PS3 would be smaller...
I also figure that the fact that there's another format war looming is what may adversely affect both HDDVD and BR in negative way though.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Its comments like this that make you appear(to me) to be very presumptuous
I can only speak for myself, but I actually think a BRD-equipped PlayStation 3 will actually help the BRD brand sales wise
Will all PS3 owners buy Spiderman 3 or whatever movie is available on BRD-ROM .no
I *DO* think PS3 will be an important product to BRD .>in my opinion< it even has a fighting chance of becoming the MOST IMPORTANT/BEST SELLING BRD hardware device...I state this opinion because the PS2 is the # 1 best selling DVD-ROM playing product in the world weather or not every single PS2 owner plays DVDs or not on them doesnt change its #1 status and is besides the point anyway
FURTHERMORE
The exact number of who is using PS2s as DVD players and who isnt is largely a theoretical question; I have never seen a study that can prove actual numbers and I imagine you will never see them
*IN MY OPINION* .because of this fact, me stating (not that I or anyone else in this thread actually said this for gods sake) that PS3 will make BRD a big success holds the SAME EXACT VALUE as you saying:
Heres another opinion:
There is no set law or timebase for the mass market acceptance of consumer electronic formats....they all become successes or falures depending on what the market chooses....the DVD market, although directly related HD-DVD/BRD, had its own rules of consumer acceptance and god only knows what will happen with HD-DVD/BRD...the success or falure of the new formats are is not written in stone, we know this obvious fact...
I, for one, think the gaming market will probably accept a BRD-equipped PlayStation 3 quite well, thank you very much...I will even go out on a limb and predict PS3 will be the dominant player next gen and the 2 gens before it.....of course, nothing is written in stone, to quote myself
Look, we all (mostly) welcome debate and differing opinions on the forum I have no problems hearing views that are different than mine .I am not a child
HOWEVER pretentious, condescending posters who make glaring generalizations .one who, when others attempt to clarify their intentions and explain their opinion., chooses to take the easy low road (categorize them all as blind Sony whores) rather than take the high road (give some goddamn value to their opinions) .well .let me tell you these types of posters I have problems with ...
Look, we can obviously go round and round with this issue forever ..I understand this because I see we have different opinions .
It would be nice, though, if the words that are put in my mouth have some A1 steak sauce on it its yummy goodness
Nah, not at all. It's just that along w/ the hype there is little perspective or room for conter discussion. I appreciate Reber too, but the guys is often a blowhard.Kleegamefan said:
agreed.Kleegamefan said:
i'll simplify it.Kleegamefan said:
PS3 can survive without brd.
blu-ray *probably* can't survive w/o PS3
Yup. It hurts PS3 gaming software vendors if X% of the PS3 software money spent is on hollywood films and not their games.Kleegamefan said:
Noone is calling anyone names, etc. I'm pointing out however that a few staunch Sony loyalists (for better or worse - it's a free country) are championing blu-ray and at the same time overlooking the many, many pitfalls the blu-ray faces. I do not consider you one personally, but that is neither here nor there.Kleegamefan said:
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
O.K.
I understand you better now...
Without question Both HD-DVD and BRD face an uphill battle...I just think that, with all its hardware and industry support (as in Technicolor, TDK and others) and the PS3 angle, the slope is a little less steep for BRD...
GR *is* a blowhard (DTS whore anyone) that I will agree with you on...
CTS movie support for BRD is nothing to sneeze at....and if they can buy MGM they would probably become the #1 Hollywood studio...
Much more influential than Pony Canyon, at any rate
I understand you better now...
Without question Both HD-DVD and BRD face an uphill battle...I just think that, with all its hardware and industry support (as in Technicolor, TDK and others) and the PS3 angle, the slope is a little less steep for BRD...
GR *is* a blowhard (DTS whore anyone) that I will agree with you on...
CTS movie support for BRD is nothing to sneeze at....and if they can buy MGM they would probably become the #1 Hollywood studio...
Much more influential than Pony Canyon, at any rate
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
BREAKING NEWS:
Time Warner are no longer persuing MGM studios!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/13/news/fortune500/twx_mgm/
Oh shit, Sony got MGM....this is news!!
Time Warner are no longer persuing MGM studios!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/13/news/fortune500/twx_mgm/
Oh shit, Sony got MGM....this is news!!
Yep, I read those three sentences and saw that the body of the paragraph supported the opening statement that I quoted. I'm not accusing you of ignoring guidelines for good paragraph structure, after all.
But you are contradicting yourself from post to post on top of all the misrepresentations of other people's positions.You're the only one who seems to care so much about whether it becomes the fastest growing CE product in history. Your whole argument hinges on it. Chinch guide to HD success:
BRD or HDDVD take off faster than DVD = SUCCESS!
BRD or HDDVD take even a day longer than DVD to become entrenched with the masses = "much todo about nothing" aka "Laserdisc-like sub-niche product" aka "fight for crumbs"
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
^^^^chinch, honestly, this may not have been your intent, but you did kinda come across this way
I could care less as neither product puts $$$ in my pocket.kaching said:
If it does I benefit as i gain personal enjoyment from hidef movies at a cheap price.
Nope.kaching said:
I've simply shown strong evidence to debunked the likelihood of hidef dvd growing even nearly at the rate of DVD. I've also stated without a doubt separate format hidef DVDs face HUGE obstacles, regardless of what future gaming consoles use.
Disagree as you wish, skip the non-witty retorts and post some facts if you wish.
i hear you, it's unintentional.Kleegamefan said:
sohka88 reply above seem to prove some are hypersensitive if you mention certain companies.
BTW - it seems here people are excited to see Sony buy MGM (and seemingly strengthen it's position) whereas on home theater forums they generally loathe Sony's current handling and care for DVD products. Time will tell what is best for consumers.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2377041#post2377041
Which you then went on to describe as tantamount to failure. Yes or No?
The biggest problem I have with your arguments is that they misrepresent everyone else's position. You've been attacking a straw man. I've pointed it out multiple times in recent responses and you've summarily ignored these parts of my responses, only answering the parts that allow you to dance around this issue. You keep saying its all unintentional but you keep doing the same thing.
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