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[Sephzilla]

During Rey's training I want her to start doing some of that twirly crap and have Luke just immediately jab her with some kind of stun baton and be like "stop that shit, it's going to get you killed"

I liked that she was using her lightsaber like a spear or a staff in TFA.

I honestly hope she gets a double bladed saber in 8. It makes sense considering she used a staff as a weapon on Jakku

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I really hope we don't see the return of twirly lightsaber dancing bullshit. The fight at the end of TFA was pretty much perfect.

They'll probably stick to a similar style. Though Kylo still used a lot of 'twirly' moves in TFA, they were probably my favourite parts.

 

[brandonh83]

They'll probably stick to a similar style. Though Kylo still used a lot of 'twirly' moves in TFA, they were probably my favourite parts.

Look at that prequel shit! Just so dancey!

 

[Sephzilla]

They'll probably stick to a similar style. Though Kylo still used a lot of 'twirly' moves in TFA, they were probably my favourite parts.

The second gif isn't bad. What I like about the first gif is that Finn, a non-Force user, blocks it easily because the twirl meant jack shit. Actually in that gif doesn't Kylo get hit a moment later?

 

[brandonh83]

The second gif isn't bad.

If that were in the prequels people would spam the fuck out of that gif like they do the Force-roulette standoff between Anakin and Kenobi.

 

[Sephzilla]

If that were in the prequels people would spam the fuck out of that gif like they do the Force-roulette standoff between Anakin and Kenobi.

If that was in the prequels he wouldn't be doing it to block a shot, he'd be doing it for no reason other than it looking fancy. I think people forget the reason the Anakin/Kenobi gif gets used all the time is because it shows how fucking stupid and pointless that moment was because it's the literal definition of flash and no substance.

Even in the first gif he's spinning around to build momentum for a massive swing. It's not a meaningless spin.

And at the start of the spin he actually swings at Finn in order to keep Finn at a safe distance so Finn doesn't just stab him in the back.

 

[-griffy-]

Even in the first gif he's spinning around to build momentum for a massive swing. It's not a meaningless spin. And it comes right after Kylo straight up completely dodges a wild swing from Finn. Like, just steps out of the way like it ain't no thang. Then advances on him and spins around for that massive swing and gets him locked up against the tree, where he sticks the crossguard in his shoulder. He's 100% messing with Finn at that point.

 

[Bots are better than you]

I really hope we don't see the return of twirly lightsaber dancing bullshit. The fight at the end of TFA was pretty much perfect.

Agreed, great fight. Three more days until Bluray arrives!

But i don't think that we see a return to lightsaber-ballet. Luke used to fight like a normal human being, Kylo Ren, while not fully trained, fights like a normal human being, and i really hope that old man Luke won't turn into bouncing ball Yoda. ^^

 

[WadiumArcadium]

The second gif isn't bad. What I like about the first gif is that Finn, a non-Force user, blocks it easily because the twirl meant jack shit. Actually in that gif doesn't Kylo get hit a moment later?

I think that's a bit later on.

 

[Vespene]

The second gif isn't bad. What I like about the first gif is that Finn, a non-Force user, blocks it easily because the twirl meant jack shit. Actually in that gif doesn't Kylo get hit a moment later?

The purpose of a twirl in a sword fight is to transfer more power towards the blow through inertia. But yeah, it looks like Finn didn't feel that strength at all.

I always thought Jedi enhanced the strength of their swings using the force.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The second gif isn't bad. What I like about the first gif is that Finn, a non-Force user, blocks it easily because the twirl meant jack shit.

The twirl almost took his head off, though.

edit: Griffy's got this all sewed up.

 

[Ushojax]

I don't get this. Kylo Ren "twirled." It felt heavier, but there's nothing inherently wrong with skilled combatants doing that. The fighting style made total sense in the prequels considering who we saw in combat. I think lightsaber fights should have some flash; it looks cool. I like the heavier combat too, but I'm okay with a mix. I won't mind it at all if the fighting is sorta like that and what we're seeing in that gif isn't necessarily representative of what we're going to see.

The problem with the PT fights, outside of the dumb twirling moment in ROTS, was that the choreography was too obvious. You could see that the actors were just trying to hit their marks and not actually kill the opponent. It got even worse when they started posting CGI heads onto stuntmen and having Palpatine and Dooku flying around. There was too much work put into looking flashy rather than the emotion of the duels.

I think the best choreographed duel in the PT is he brief one on Tatooine between Qui-Gon and Maul. It looks believable. Something like Mace v Sidious just looks embarrassing.

 

[brandonh83]

If that was in the prequels he wouldn't be doing it to block a shot, he'd be doing it for no reason other than it looking fancy. I think people forget the reason the Anakin/Kenobi gif gets used all the time is because it shows how fucking stupid and pointless that moment was because it's the literal definition of flash and no substance.

It does have substance. There's a contextual reason behind it. The Force sensitive have foresight and can "see" ahead. Anakin and Kenobi are seen as equals, and that moment was meant to illustrate that, as they spin the sabers and immediately connect because they both saw their move. I thought it made total sense and I never got why it's, again, spammed like it's some big deal.

The problem with the PT fights, outside of the dumb twirling moment in ROTS, was that the choreography was too obvious. You could see that the actors were just trying to hit their marks and not actually kill the opponent. It got even worse when they started posting CGI heads onto stuntmen and having Palpatine and Dooku flying around.

I think the coreography matches the context of Force people fighting with lightsabers. To each his own.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Even in the first gif he's spinning around to build momentum for a massive swing. It's not a meaningless spin. And it comes right after Kylo straight up dodges completely a wild swing from Finn. Like, just steps out of the way like it ain't no thang. Then advances on him and spins around for that massive swing and gets him locked up against the tree, where he sticks the crossguard in his shoulder. He's 100% messing with Finn at that point.

And in the course of making the spin, he whips the saber at Finn's face, which he has to dodge. In the prequels everyone just spun around for no reason, sabers pointing down. As you said, this had purpose.

 

[Ushojax]

It does have substance. There's a contextual reason behind it. The Force sensitive have foresight and can "see" ahead. Anakin and Kenobi are seen as equals, and that moment was meant to illustrate that, as they spin the sabers and immediately connect because they both saw their move. I thought it made total sense and I never got why it's, again, spammed like it's some big deal.

It looks stupid, that's why. The way they try to force push each other was a much better way to show they are evenly matched.

 

[Sephzilla]

It does have substance. There's a contextual reason behind it. The Force sensitive have foresight and can "see" ahead. Anakin and Kenobi are seen as equals, and that moment was meant to illustrate that, as they spin the sabers and immediately connect because they both saw their move. I thought it made total sense and I never got why it's, again, spammed like it's some big deal.

If they both can see the future and know their strikes wont land the twirling is completely unnecessary. Them standing in a ready position waiting for one of them to strike would have been more tense and interesting than a pointless twirling barrage where they make no actual effort to hit each other.

Edit - Also what Ushojax said. Their dual Force push right after that is way better and demonstrates them being evenly matched a million times better

 

[brandonh83]

It looks stupid, that's why. The way they try to force push each other was a much better way to show they are evenly matched.

I didn't think it looked stupid and was like, 2 seconds long. And again it makes sense and there's a reason behind it. For me that doesn't quite equate to something that is lambasted as much as it is. It's making a mountain out of nothing.

If they both can see the future and know their strikes wont land the twirling is completely unnecessary. Them standing in a ready position waiting for one of them to strike would have been more tense and interesting than a pointless twirling barrage where they make no actual effort to hit each other

Considering Anakin's ego trip and trying to show up Kenobi, it still makes sense. It worked for me on a character level, that's all.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

The second gif isn't bad. What I like about the first gif is that Finn, a non-Force user, blocks it easily because the twirl meant jack shit. Actually in that gif doesn't Kylo get hit a moment later?

You can tell that Kylo was just showing off and fucking with Finn, especially since once Finn taps him he just gets mad and instantly disarms him and slashes his back.

It looks stupid, that's why. The way they try to force push each other was a much better way to show they are evenly matched.

I always thought that part was fine, they were clearly predicting each others strikes perfectly and no matter how hard they tried they couldn't out juke each other. The gif makes that look worse than it actually is.

 

[Sephzilla]

Considering Anakin's ego trip and trying to show up Kenobi, it still makes sense. It worked for me on a character level, that's all.

No it doesn't because why would Kenobi also engage in the ego trip twirling fest? Especially since earlier in the movie Kenobi confronts Grevious, who also does crazy twirly shit (and in his case it makes more sense), and Kenobi just stands there and waits to deflect the attack and retaliate.

 

[jackal27]

These goofballs comparing Kylo's like 2 twirls to 40,000 in the prequels. Yall are silly.

Personally I don't care HOW many twirls you give me as long as the fight has some kind of emotional impact. That's my problem with the prequel fights.

 

[Freewheelin']

Rewatched the film yesterday. Kylo is the best thing in it.

 

[brandonh83]

No it doesn't because why would Kenobi also engage in the ego trip twirling fest?

He "saw" Anakin about to do it, or at least that's what I think/got out of it, and went along with it and tried to throw each other off. It's simply a sort of "who's better" thing but they're pretty much equals which led to the "copying." At any rate I don't think it's ever been worth that much discussion so I'll forfeit.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Where's the spreadsheet with the twirl counts?

(I knew the instant I saw that instagram it was going to become a prequel argument here.)

 

[Surfinn]

I really hope we don't see the return of twirly lightsaber dancing bullshit. The fight at the end of TFA was pretty much perfect.

Nah I'm sure these are just exercises to get her into shape/coordinated for the fight. They know how to make a good saber battle.. don't worry. Rian Johnson isn't going to have her twirling around. If JJ put together what we saw in TFA, we have no reason whatsoever to expect less from RJ.

Some incredible skill on display here, wow (in the video).

This should excite people, not drive them away.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I don't get this. Kylo Ren "twirled."

He was showing off. I believe he stopped twirling immediately when Finn landed a blow on him.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Sorry, I was busy watching the gun show to get too upset about a stick twirling around in kendo practice. Not sorry.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Nah I'm sure these are just exercises to get her into shape for the fight.

Pretty much.

 

[brandonh83]

(I knew the instant I saw that instagram it was going to become a prequel argument here.)

You know it, lol. I actually didn't think about it at first but it didn't take long. For all the problems I have with the prequels, the lightsaber duels were never one of them outside of like this one weird moment where it's like Anakin basically stops fighting Dooku and gives him what feels like a deliberately clear shot at his arm. I mostly chalk that one up to editing, though.

He was showing off. I believe he stopped twirling immediately when Finn landed a blow on him.

They're not allowed to show off in the prequels though. God damn it, I said I forfeit, I don't feel like doing this shit today

 

[Sephzilla]

I'd just like to say that Kylo vs Rey is also my favorite lightsaber fight in the franchise (that isn't Luke/Vader)

Rewatched the film yesterday. Kylo is the best thing in it.

I like all of the new characters introduced in TFA but Kylo Ren is by far and away the most interesting of the bunch and he's the one I want to see more of.

On that note - is Kylo Ren going to keep his Not-Vader mask in the remaining movies?

 

[brandonh83]

I like all of the new characters introduced in TFA but Kylo Ren is by far and away the most interesting of the bunch and he's the one I want to see more of.

He's the most interesting villain in Star Wars. Vader became interesting in the second film, but Kylo Ren is immediately interesting in his debut. Vader in A New Hope was mostly iconic, which Kylo Ren isn't, but that's a direct plot point.

I wanna be cool like you granpaps

 

[-griffy-]

He "saw" Anakin about to do it, or at least that's what I think/got out of it, and went along with it and tried to throw each other off. It's simply a sort of "who's better" thing but they're pretty much equals which led to the "copying." At any rate I don't think it's ever been worth that much discussion so I'll forfeit.

I don't know man. I just took a look again, the moment is them deflecting blows from each other in a frenzy, then them just starting to swing their sabers around for no discernible reason, then them locking blades together. Then they do the Force-push-off. It seemed like a contrived "here's the part where they swing in a flourish and we cut to a wideshot that'll look cool" thing. There's no reason they couldn't have gone from deflecting swings to locking blades with no spinning in between.

The whole sequence is like that, from the get go. Anakin delivers his weird as hell "YOU WILL TRY" line, then does the BIG BACK FLIP that serves absolutely no purpose because he just lands right in front of Obi-wan and they start swinging at each other super fast and speed walking in tandem. That's like 90% of the fight, is them swinging fast and speed walking together. When they're not speed walking they're standing absolutely still, which is where the fight eventually culminates as they are on floating platforms moving super fast over lava as they literally stand still swinging at each other, just driving home the fact that all of the movement in the fight is completely ancillary and without purpose.

 

[chaislip3]

On that note - is Kylo Ren going to keep his Not-Vader mask in the remaining movies?

I'm pretty sure he left it on the bridge, so if he has a mask in VIII I wouldn't think it'd be the same one. Who knows, though. He probably has like 20 of them.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

On that note - is Kylo Ren going to keep his Not-Vader mask in the remaining movies?

I think so. He's still trying to emulator Vader and the mask feels like part of the act.

 

[-griffy-]

And yeah, we should be talking about how cut Ridley is getting, not twirling lightsabers. Those back muscles are something fierce.

 

[Sephzilla]

The only reason I ask about the mask is because the big thing with Kylo Ren is that the mask was a front to make him look scarier. All of the main characters have seen him unmasked at this point and Kylo's wannabe Vader ego is probably squashed right now, so I'm not sure if the mask would serve much purpose for him.

And yeah, we should be talking about how cut Ridley is getting, not twirling lightsabers. Those back muscles are something fierce.

I said goddamn when I saw those guns and back muscles

 

[Bobby Roberts]

On that note - is Kylo Ren going to keep his Not-Vader mask in the remaining movies?

Can't imagine he won't. Granpa apparently had extra gargoyle masks around (one w/ red lenses. One w/out. One to replace the one Ahsoka fucked up, etc.) so I'd imagine he's got more than a few, too.

Plus now he's actually got a reason to rock one after Rey gave him a kiss with the business end of Granpa's glowstick.

 

[brandonh83]

I don't know man.

Yeah, which made sense to me. Anakin was on a fucking trip and super pissed off at Obi-Wan. He was showing off and being flashy. So I don't even really disagree with your point there. I dunno. Again it just made sense and worked for me. If it didn't for you or anyone else I ain't got no qualms with that. I was just simply at first explaining why the roulette standoff didn't bother me.

I'll leave it at that. Let's talk VIII.

 

[-griffy-]

The only reason I ask about the mask is because the big thing with Kylo Ren is that the mask was a front to make him look scarier. All of the main characters have seen him unmasked at this point and Kylo's wannabe Vader ego is probably squashed right now, so I'm not sure if the mask would serve much purpose for him.

He's actually got a pretty nasty face injury that may warrant a mask now.

 

[Sephzilla]

Plus now he's actually got a reason to rock one after Rey gave him a kiss with the business end of Granpa's glowstick.

He's actually got a pretty nasty face injury that may warrant a mask now.

Also a pretty good point.

Kylo - "Now I'm scarred, just like grandpa!"

Episode 8 will end with Kylo Ren jumping into a puddle of lava

 

[brandonh83]

I've thought about Kylo having a new mask. I didn't think about him leaving it on the bridge which went kaput, and he does have that new scar. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it until I saw how it was handled, but it would be interesting if his new mask in VIII was closer to Vader's and then he gets a new mask in IX that is really close to it.

Again, I don't know how I'd feel about it. Just a thought.

 

[GhaleonEB]

He was showing off. I believe he stopped twirling immediately when Finn landed a blow on him.

Yup. He takes Finn down instantly once he gets whacked.

Watched last night TFA for the first time since the home release - been busy. The saber fights are really superb. Hopefully they remain grounded fighting style throughout the trilogy.

As an aside, I remember Daisy saying they trained for TFA's fights with solid wood staffs, which were heavy, because they designed the sabers to have a lot of weight and they needed to be able to use them. That she's still using a solid wood staff to train with is a good sign that the fights will retain their weight and heft. (In the prequels they used hollow graphite rods.)

 

[Surfinn]

Can't imagine he won't. Granpa apparently had extra gargoyle masks around (one w/ red lenses. One w/out. One to replace the one Ahsoka fucked up, etc.) so I'd imagine he's got more than a few, too.

Plus now he's actually got a reason to rock one after Rey gave him a kiss with the business end of Granpa's glowstick.

I'd like more metaphorical reasoning for the mask situation. I think it would make more sense for him to lose the mask now that he's past the "point of no return" with his decision to kill Han.

At first his mask was used to project someone who he hadn't quite become yet, and now that he is that person, there's nothing left to conceal.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

I think the clone wars show has some of the most fun dueling choreography, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tMQyJCKLcw like in this duel (starts at 1:25), they're fast, agile and intense without looking like the characters are rave dancing with massive glow sticks.

Not to mention the duels are very kinetic, they are constantly swinging with intent to wound or kill, dodging, kicking, grappling and shoving each other as well as using the force.

Sure they do flashy things like jump around, and spin occasionally but that's because these people are super human, they're using the force to augment their movements and it's supposed to look like that. It's not supposed to just be the same as a sword fight between two normal people.

I think it's important for the sequel trilogy to not get wrapped up in trying hard to replicate the OT and to dismiss the PT but rather to take the elements that worked from both, the PT established a lot of interesting precedent and back ground for how fully trained Jedi actually fight. Just because it was poorly executed in the PT doesn't mean that it's something worth ignoring completely.

The fact that jedi can leap 8 feet up and move quickly and elegantly should not be wasted when there is a lot of potential there.

 

[LowParry]

Daisy, training for VIII:

http://www.popsci.com/watch-daisy-ridley-swing-practice-lightsaber?src=SOC&dom=tw

That's not a staff

 

[brandonh83]

Episode 8 will end with Kylo Ren jumping into a puddle of lava

Kylo Ren extends out his arm

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Also a pretty good point.

Kylo - "Now I'm scarred, just like grandpa!"

Episode 8 will end with Kylo Ren jumping into a puddle of lava

That's taking the meaning of fanboy to a whole new level.

 

[Sephzilla]

I'd like more metaphorical reasoning for the mask situation. I think it would make more sense for him to lose the mask now that he's past the "point of no return" with his decision to kill Han.

At first his mask was used to project someone who he hadn't quite become yet, and now that he is that person, there's nothing left to conceal.

I kinda want to build off that idea and take it a different direction. Perhaps Kylo Ren didn't get the full satisfaction of killing his father and slipping further into the darkness that he expected, and now feels regret over it. So he stays in the mask and skips further into the Kylo Ren "character" to mask it.

Kylo Ren extends out his arm

I'm laughing way too hard at this

 

[brandonh83]

That's not a staff

That means nothing, but no, she probably won't have some light staff thing.

 

[J.G.]

That's not a staff

She's practicing with her training saber, and then later creates her own saber staff towards the end of her training

Spoiler

believe

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It first his mask was used to project someone who he hadn't quite become yet, and now that he is that person, there's nothing left to conceal.

Yeah, but he's also a vain little shithead with a giant canal cut into his face, so why not keep rocking the mask.

Metaphor is cool but I see this dickhead sticking with what "works."

Also I doubt he's actually the person he wants to be. Or that he ever will be.