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The case for adding men to Dead or Alive Xtreme 3, and other similar gaming content.

There's been a lot of talk about fanservice in games lately, and one of the mainstays of those conversations is the Dead or Alive Xtreme series. I've been discussing this with a couple fellow gaffers for a while now, as well as on some other sites, but I wanted to gather all my thoughts in one topic. Basically, it's time that Team NINJA added some male characters to the DoAX series, and it's time that other companies step up their game as well and be more inclusive when it comes to offering fan service content in their titles. Now first off, what I'm talking about here is visceral fan service, aka flesh. I know there are many other ways to convey sex appeal, and I know not everyone finds enjoyment in seeing nearly naked bodies parading around their televisions, and that's great. Men, women, trans, non-binary, gay, straight, bi, asexual, etc. everyone is different. Games, just like any other type of creative medium, should strive to offer a multitude of varying experiences and perspectives. There is no "one size fits all" solution, nor should there be, and every game does not need to be set up to be a broadly received as possible, as that waters down creative intent, and doesn't serve anyone in the long run. I think this is something most everyone can agree on, or at least I hope it is.

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Now that being said, I also think that it's pretty fair to assume that a large majority of the population likes to view some gratuitously sexual imagery from time to time. This is part of human nature for most people, and it's not shameful in any regard as long as it's being done in a respectful manner. And when it comes to the venue of video games, it's pretty obvious that female characters are overly sexualized, and suffer from an enormous dearth of proper, in-depth representation. This lack of meaningful representation for women, as well as for other minority groups, is almost certainly the largest issue facing gaming today. I'm saying all this to convey the fact that the basis of this topic is not ignoring those issues, not in the slightest. Anyone who is familiar with my posts here can tell you as much. But the focus of this topic is another angle. It's my personal belief that one way to combat the stigma surrounding sex in the medium is not only to provide more nuance in regards to female representation, but also to embrace the sexualization of male characters in a more balanced fashion. Of course there are numerous smaller/indie developers that are making ground in this respect, and sub genres like otome games are seeing increasing success, but as far as large companies and well known IPs, the idea of overtly sexualized male characters is not commonplace. (There are exceptions to this. Bioware for example.)

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So that brings us back to the Dead or Alive Xtreme series. Anyone familiar with the spin-off will know that it unabashedly puts the IP's female characters on display in an embellished cheesecake fashion. The issue that I have with the game is not it's inherent dedication to fanservice, but the fact that anyone that who is more inclined towards the male form have no avenue to join in on the fun. Some people might say that the Xtreme series has started with women only, and should remain that way. Of course they're entitled to that opinion, and it's not necessarily born from a malicious or selfish place, because as I stated above, it's not the responsibility of every game to appeal to every player imaginable. But there are a few points those that hold that limited view are forgetting. Firstly, that the Dead or Alive series on a whole has always had male characters as well, and those characters have fans that deserve some content aimed towards them. (Team NINJA is already slowly becoming aware of this fact, as even though it was a long wait, the men finally got some swimsuits in DoA5, and certain characters like Ein and Eliot had beforehand received a non-incidental amount of fanservice attire.) Also, in the grand scheme of things, any gamer that likes to see attractive women in skimpy attire, displayed in an intentionally sexual fashion, are at absolutely no loss for options when they wish to indulge that desire. So when we consider this, it seems obvious to me that the Dead or Alive Xtreme series could make some room at the table for some beefcake content as well.

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Now of course it's not simply the act of wanting something that justifies its existence. Games are created to make money, and of course developers are always mindful of this fact. Even though I'd love to see it happen, I don't think launching a stand alone, stud laden DoAX title would be the wisest choice right off the bat. The Dead or Alive moniker carries with it many preconceived notions, and those have to be taken into consideration. That's why I would suggest that in the initial offering of men for the series, that it should be done via DLC, and/or as a small addition to the currently planned product. While I think most rational gamers would have no problem seeing Ryu in a speedo alongside a bikini-clad Kasumi, there would inevitable be some backlash from people, mostly of the knee-jerk variety, that Koei Tecmo is trying to take away their fan service by shoving men down their throats, when in reality it's nothing of the sort. By having it be an opt-in expansion, the more uninformed players can gradually acclimate themselves to the idea, while everyone else can have some frivolous beach side fun. Thankfully the market for more inclusive offerings are only going to grow as time goes on, so companies would be wise to utilize the assets they currently have available in this sense, and Team NINJA has ample opportunity to do so. In addition to the positive benefits this would have for players wishing for this type of content, it also could provide the opportunity to earn some goodwill for the company and the brand. Dead or Alive Xtreme in its current state will most likely not garner that much attention from mainstream media other than some blurbs about the "controversy", and maybe a few reviews on niche sites. But were they to add some men into the mix, I'm pretty sure that would be a story that would gain some traction, partly due to the pure novelty of the act, and also because it shows they're willing to take a risk and offer something for a more expanded audience of players. It may even pave the way to an eventual western release. Regardless of your feelings on the matter, it would be a lot harder to disparage content like this if the developers are making an effort in good faith to be inclusive.

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And while Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 is an obvious example, there are certainly numerous other series/companies that could benefit from this type of expanded fan service, and already possess the tools and resources to do so. Another instance that has already seen a very positive reception is the inclusion of the "Hot Ryu" DLC costume in Street Fighter V. Capcom has even directly confirmed that they've noticed the warm reception and plan to expand upon it further. The game is currently experiencing a myriad of launch issues at the moment, so I'll forgive them for not having made any progress in that regard since then, but once those are ironed out, they really do need to take it upon themselves to follow through. Even just yesterday, some mods of Hot Ryu striking the more provocative poses belonging to the female characters has been making the rounds, and they already have thousands of views/likes/notes on various social media sites. All in one day. I'm not saying that it's the exact route I'd like them to follow as there's more to consider than just some jiggling male butt cheeks, but at the same time it's not to be underestimated either. The best indicator that we're working towards a better gaming community is when everyone can have their (beef and/or cheese) cake, and eat it too. And that it's not a crime to enjoy some frivolous doses of gratuitous sex, as long as everyone has the opportunity to do so, and it comes part and parcel with other types of experiences that explore a full range of experiences and viewpoints. Some developer is gonna have a breakthrough when it comes to fan service of the male variety, and other companies are going to be wishing that they had pursued a similar course of action sooner. The only thing to wonder is, which big developer is going to really embrace this unstoppable trend and bring it to the masses.

Note: While representation should definitely extend to all different body types, this isn't about a specific type or fetish, more the general concept of male character fanservice. DoAX3 is used as a template because it's an obvious example, and they already possess the majority of the tools there to capitalize on it.
 

Sapiens

Member
Why only fit people though? There is a bigger problem with under representation of more realistic body types.
 

Ouren

Member
Why only fit people though? There is a bigger problem with under representation of more realistic body types.

yea where are all of the out of shape martial artists anyway??

for real though, why not have men too who cares
 
Why only fit people though? There is a bigger problem with under representation of more realistic body types.

Because DoA isn't about realism. It's about sexy.

You are right though. There should be more representation in things. I just don't think DoA is a place to start.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Why only fit people though? There is a bigger problem with under representation of more realistic body types.

I'm pretty sure manservice is a lot more under represented, though neither is exactly common. Regardless, if they can cater to every female-design fetish imaginable, only fair they give equal opportunity.

And DoA isn't a bad place to start at all, given the swimsuit history. Just... probably not where fans of that would think to turn first, heh. They're more likely to play otome games.
 
if you really want to make it fair, have the men in banana hammocks with overly active dong physics where they take a step and like the thing is helicoptering.
 

Griss

Member
My big problem would be that when I talk about DoAX or enter a DoAX thread, I don't want to see men. If I was to see that, I'd just stop interacting with the franchise in that way. As it stands, the series caters exclusively to my tastes, and I obviously like that.

In the game itself (which I must admit I'm not going to buy) it wouldn't be an issue. You just don't select those characters, and they're not forced on you. But in the meta-narrative about what the game IS and how we talk about it, the game would be changed forever, and to something that I personally wouldn't have an interest in.

I'm sure Team Ninja feels like the amount of people they'd lose beats the amount of audience they might gain. Are they right? There's only one way to find out, I suppose. As I said, I don't buy these games, so if it was to happen it really wouldn't be any skin off my back, and I'd applaud the attempt at inclusivity.

if you really want to make it fair, have the men in banana hammocks with overly active dong physics where they take a step and like the thing is helicoptering.

This shitty dong physics meme drives me fucking crazy. Breasts are not genitals for fuck's sake. The girls of DoA do not have camel toes. It's off-limits.
 

Platy

Member
The problem is that even with equal opportunity objectification, there is a still a LONG way about how the difference there is in male objectification and women objectification in media.

And I am not talking about how "Hot Ryu" and the examples in the OP are extra paid content compared to Mika ou Laura, or how most people liked the "hot ryu" gifs because they found hilarious, not hot.

I am talking about the reason why this happens and its is how society sees both objectification differently

But yeah, putting males and crotch/breast muscle physics is a start ... I guess
 
Why only fit people though? There is a bigger problem with under representation of more realistic body types.
Considering this series is based around martial artists, it makes sense they'd all be in shape. There are some varying body type among the men though, with Bass and Raidou being more thickly muscled, and Eliot who is leaner. They do offer a wider variety of ages though, which is something not always found in fanservice material, particularly older characters.

This topic isn't really about body type representation though, (which is an important topic) more the general concept of male fanservice being utilized.
 

Zolo

Member
My big problem would be that when I talk about DoAX or enter a DoAX thread, I don't want to see men. If I was to see that, I'd just stop interacting with the franchise in that way. As it stands, the series caters exclusively to my tastes, and I obviously like that.

In the game itself (which I must admit I'm not going to buy) it wouldn't be an issue. You just don't select those characters, and they're not forced on you. But in the meta-narrative about what the game IS and how we talk about it, the game would be changed forever, and to something that I personally wouldn't have an interest in.

I'm sure Team Ninja feels like the amount of people they'd lose beats the amount of audience they might gain. Are they right? There's only one way to find out, I suppose. As I said, I don't buy these games, so if it was to happen it really wouldn't be any skin off my back, and I'd applaud the attempt at inclusivity.

The solution here seems more to make a second version then. A large point of the games is to get money through dlc stuff anyway, so a second version makes sense.
 
Healthy people really excludes all the sick and diseased people in the world too, though. There should be a person with leprosy, another with chicken pox, some girl with a cold, etc.
 

Vlaphor

Member
Out of all the DOA guys, the only one I think is cute is Eliot (and maybe Rig if I'm desperate). If I wanted to see fighting guys in a non-fighting scenario, it'd be the men of KOF. I find the vast majority of them cute, plus with all the attractive women, you could have a co-ed KOF X game. That's where I'd start.
 
The problem is that even with equal opportunity objectification, there is a still a LONG way about how the difference there is in male objectification and women objectification in media.

And I am not talking about how "Hot Ryu" and the examples in the OP are extra paid content compared to Mika ou Laura, or how most people liked the "hot ryu" gifs because they found hilarious, not hot.

I am talking about the reason why this happens and its is how society sees both objectification differently

But yeah, putting males and crotch/breast muscle physics is a start ... I guess

lol That reminds me of what CD Projekt said where they wanted to have a naked Geralt during gameplay, but it would be too difficult to add dick physics.
 
DoAX3 has been disappointing all around, it just looks like DoAX2 except this time with models from DoA5. Makes me wonder what they're doing all day.
 
I don't see DOAX as a harmful thing. Certainly no more so than pornography that's geared toward men. Of course, I don't see anything wrong with the men of the franchise getting their own game. Hell, take a cue from Pokémon and make a Yin and Yang version, Mars and Venus, Zucchini and Peach - whatever.

Let the hetero ladies and homosexual men ogle dem polygons if they so desire, yo. I'll still be over here avoiding both games like the plague, but y'all go do you.
 
Serious question: Do we have any reason to believe that DOAX3 will be an improvement over previous installments, or will the downward spiral continue?

The first game had a "Rockstar Table Tennis" kind of solid mechanical foundation, despite catering to perverts.
 

Zolo

Member
This topic isn't really about body type representation though, (which is an important topic) more the general concept of male fanservice being utilized.

I don't think I'd really say 'sexualized', but the recent 'Tales of' games would probably be a good place to look. The male designs may not be sexualized, but they are often meant to appeal to women. The hot scenes scene in Xillia 2 I believe I remember also being pretty equal in fanservice with hearing the same in Zestiria as well.

This is due to the fact that there fanbase actually seems like it has even numbers between male and female fans with female fans likely taking up even more of a percentage of those who buy merchandise.

I also believe you see a similar case with Persona 5 where the protagonist's normal form looks like the type of character that would be a model for a glasses guy and a hot bad boy design for his thief form. It also has a chest/cleavage window for the character Yusuke in his thief form who also falls a lot under the pretty boy archetype.
 

Tagyhag

Member
I don't see why not.

yea where are all of the out of shape martial artists anyway??

for real though, why not have men too who cares

Find me a martial artist with the body type of Honoka.

The games were never about realism, no problem with having fat characters in it.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Sure, but only if they have advanced package physics.
 
Serious question: Do we have any reason to believe that DOAX3 will be an improvement over previous installments, or will the downward spiral continue?


I might have missed something, but there's been close to zero actual volleyball shown, aside from snippets in trailers and a girl itching her butt with a volleyball.

so, no gameplay shown and it's like 3 weeks away.

if you bring up gameplay in a doax3 thread you get shit like this from people who've apparently never played the games before and think you get stripteases without 40 hours of volleyball first:
It has Honoka and Nyotengu so it's better by default.
 
Yeah, when majority of the audience are straight males, they want to pander to that group. DOA in particular is not exactly the best place to have male fanservice due to its history with catering with the straight male audience.

With that being said, it would be nice to have male fanservice. I'm still waiting for a male fanservice that's equivalent to Sparticus.
 
Considering this series is based around martial artists, it makes sense they'd all be in shape. There are some varying body type among the men though, with Bass and Raidou being more thickly muscled, and Eliot who is leaner. They do offer a wider variety of ages though, which is something not always found in fanservice material, particularly older characters.

This topic isn't really about body type representation though, (which is an important topic) more the general concept of male fanservice being utilized.

yea where are all of the out of shape martial artists anyway??

for real though, why not have men too who cares

The UFC? Roy Nelson? Also chubby girls can fucking brawl. And generally most Martial Artists have actual muscles instead of smooth looking soft skin and they also can't teleport at will.

DoA is not the place for this. It was established on women being the fansevice target. That's what people expect and want. I'm sure if their dlc sales for the men were significant enough though there would probably be a separate version of xtreme.
 

Platy

Member
just do one with called DOAX3: MEN Edition and sell as DLC.

If you guys love DLC so much you should have had all pratical normal clothing to the female fighters and bought their actual costumes as DLC.

Or even ... Sell the Men edition as default and make the Women edition DLC, since it has been PROVEN that it sells =P

lol That reminds me of what CD Projekt said where they wanted to have a naked Geralt during gameplay, but it would be too difficult to add dick physics.

They did ALL THAT SHIT and dick physics is TOO HARD ????

pun intended ;D
 
I'm gonna say there aren't any nearly naked men in DOAX3 for the same reason there aren't any naked men in Playboy magazine (I guess there aren't any naked women anymore, either, but I digress). It's targeted at a certain audience, and that audience doesn't wanna stumble onto some dong.

Sure, they should make a game for the meat-gazers to get their kicks too. It's probably just better for most involved if they keep it separate. That's what I think anyway.

Serious question: Do we have any reason to believe that DOAX3 will be an improvement over previous installments, or will the downward spiral continue?

It has Honoka and Nyotengu so it's better by default.
 

Golnei

Member
The solution here seems more to make a second version then. A large point of the games is to get money through dlc stuff anyway, so a second version makes sense.

Considering they're not actually buying the games in question, that wouldn't solve the problem. The discussion would still be poisoned.

Ya know what. I would actually like more thick chicks in DoA. Because there's definitely appeal for that.

It'd probably be justifiable for them to focus a little more on varying the body types available, even in a very limited way - as it is now, their butt physics are getting hardly any use. Even if it saves on development time, the same-body issues plaguing both the male and female cast should probably be amended a little in the next round of main games - most characters can essentially function as headswaps of each other.
 
I think equal opportunity pervy stuff in games that are not built purely as a perversion delivery system, like Street Fighter, is not just fine but actually laudable.

That being said, in terms of things that are explicit (or... explicitly implicit) I think it's best to keep the gardens walled off. There's a reason otome games have a different section from gal games, after all. And I have to believe, given the fact that there is no shortage of the former, that there just isn't the same amount of demand for a product like DOAX for people who find men attractive.

...Which probably speaks pretty well of them, because those games are kind of terrible.
 
DoA is not the place for this. It was established on women being the fansevice target. That's what people expect and want. I'm sure if their dlc sales for the men were significant enough though there would probably be a separate version of xtreme.
They need to actually provide the DLC content first for people to purchase. It took over three years for the men to get some swimsuits, so we're not exactly functioning on an even playing field here.

That's why Team NINJA, and other developers, need to make more of an effort from the get go.

I'm gonna say there aren't any nearly naked men in DOAX3 for the same reason there aren't any naked men in Playboy magazine (I guess there aren't any naked women anymore, either, but I digress). It's targeted at a certain audience, and that audience doesn't wanna stumble onto some dong.

Sure, they should make a game for the meat-gazers to get their kicks too. It's probably just better for most involved if they keep it separate. That's what I think anyway.
Anyone into Playboy also has literally hundreds of options when it comes to getting their cheescake kicks in gaming, no so much for fans of the male body. So it's not an apt comparison.

And as I mentioned in the OP, I would initially have it be an opt-in experience to acclimate DoAX players to the idea, so those that want to have some beefcake can, while others can abstain.
 
I'm gonna say there aren't any nearly naked men in DOAX3 for the same reason there aren't any naked men in Playboy magazine (I guess there aren't any naked women anymore, either, but I digress). It's targeted at a certain audience, and that audience doesn't wanna stumble onto some dong.

Sure, they should make a game for the meat-gazers to get their kicks too. It's probably just better for most involved if they keep it separate. That's what I think anyway.



It has Honoka and Nyotengu so it's better by default.

That's easily avoidable by including an all girl mode, men mode and mixed mode. There's no need for two separate games.
 

Zolo

Member
That's easily avoidable by including an all girl mode, men mode en mixed mode. There's no need for two separate games.

That would work, but then you have to deal with the cover of the game that's supposed to appeal to the buyers.
 

halfbeast

Banned
That would work, but then you have to deal with the cover of the game that's supposed to appeal to the buyers.

reversible cover would do the trick. have a sticker-quote that mentions the other sex (and maybe a character-cutout with a thumbs up).
 

Khezu

Member
For DOAX specifically, it seems to be aimed at a very specific niche of Japanese male gamers who are willing to spend all of their money on stuff like this, so it would be a waste of resources to make male characters when they could make more ridiculous bikinis or add in all the females they cut.

They could take a chance and try it, but they already know there is a small but devoted fanbase that will willing pay a premium for this content.

But this is all just my opinion as someone who only kinda pays attention to the obsessive otaku market in Japan.
I'm sure someone else can correct me.
 
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