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The Official UFC 75: CHAMPION V. CHAMPION Thread

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Asbel

Member
Ned Flanders said:
Which brings me to another point. Opponents seem to be gameplanning CC quite well, but CC can't gameplan his way out of a paper bag. It seems as though he trains each of his skills generically, but doesn't adapt to the style of his adversary. He would have been better served in cutting Kongo off, jabbing him back toward the cage, and then looking for big strikes by stepping back from close range. Launching the LHK in the center of the octagon seems desperately ineffective at present. I thought to myself, "How can Mirko lose a striking battle with Cheick Kongo when training striking with Gilbert Yvel and Remy Bonjasky?" When watching Mirko's training videos, he and Bonjasky would alternate on offense with 20 or 30 second intervals of strikes, launching soft combinations and clinching/kneeing before switching. It seemed like they were basically doing K-1 standup training in a cage. There was no clinching with strikes while backed into the cage, no footwork for positioning or cutting off the cage to the opponent.
Yep, as great as his training partners were, they're strengths weren't with fighting in a cage. He needs to get a Team Quest training partner.
Hunter D said:
Randy can not touch Hendo in the standup.
Sigh.. Hendo only has power over Randy in the standup. Dan's a brawler through and through while Randy is more technical offensively and defensively in his standup.
Ned Flanders said:
Misaki won by being a hard target while mixing it up, not by standing and trading.
Exactly what I would say about Randy's standup too.
 
Bishman said:
Matt Hammil didn't do much in the fight. Yeah he covered up and popped Bisping every here and there, but Bisping was more active. Hell, when Hammil would take Bisping down, he didn't do any damage. Bisping would negate everything then stand back up.

Matt Hammil lost the fight to himself. If he wanted to win, he should have done more to win. Bisping won round 2 and 3. I'll give Matt Hammil the 1st round. He surprised me there with his striking.


Bisping spent the first two rounds running away. Bisping wasn't active until the 3rd when he became the agressor and stuffed some takedowns, yet he wasn't even a clear winner of the 3rd. Didn't really matter as he was down 2 rounds at that point. At least one judge wasn't paid off and got the score right. What a joke. Might as well start watching the WWE.
 

Asbel

Member
Bishman said:
Anyone else besides me impressed with Rampage. Damn he looks unstoppable. He controlled Dan Henderson on the ground like it was nothing, and Rampage actually had great bjj. lol. My heart was beating when Henderson would go for a submission. I thought he was about to catch Rampage with a sub. But as long as Rampage has Juanito on his side, he will keep winning. Juanito went 3-0 tonight. Kongo, Bisping, and Rampage.

Rampage vs winner of Shogun / Forest or Chuck / Jardine vs Silva?
Impressed, definitely. But not unstoppable. If Dan was a gameplan fighter, he'd continue to do what he did in the first round (clinch, takedown, control top position) he would have won as we saw Rampage could do very little to stop this. But Dan likes to stand and bang which leaves him open to takedowns and allowed Rampage to get top position.
 
Bishman said:
Anyone else besides me impressed with Rampage. Damn he looks unstoppable. He controlled Dan Henderson on the ground like it was nothing, and Rampage actually had great bjj. lol. My heart was beating when Henderson would go for a submission. I thought he was about to catch Rampage with a sub. But as long as Rampage has Juanito on his side, he will keep winning. Juanito went 3-0 tonight. Kongo, Bisping, and Rampage.

Rampage vs winner of Shogun / Forest or Chuck / Jardine vs Silva?


Rampage has a great MMA skillset, and has continued to adapt and implement his training into improving himself. You're absolutely right about Juanito too (except for him being 3-0..Bisping looked lost..and LOST..IMO). It seems that he does extremely well in preparing his fighters in training and gameplanning specifically toward their opponents strengths and weaknesses, and Rampage has proved the ultimate student in taking all of his input and running with it. The holes in his game have closed considerably, while his repetoire of attack is more well rounded than ever. He's also incredibly composed in the octagon. The early jitters of his fight with Eastman seem like distant memories.

His biggest future test will be facing either a deadly clinchfighter (obviously Wand/Shogun, and apparently Houston Alexander after watching his last two fights), or top-tier submission guy. Hendo is no slouch at either, but neither are exactly his style, to be sure.


Sky's the limit for Rampage at the moment. He seems to have his personal life together, he's still in his physical prime, and he's got all the right people around him. Oh and he's making good money, and getting big-time exposure. Assuming he can keep from getting sloppy on the home front (money and adoration goes to his head etc), and continue to implement good strategy, I don't see him falling to anything but the best performances from the best fighters at 205. Even a tip-top Wand, Shogun, or Alexander is gonna have a tough time taking it to the Rampage we've seen in '07..
 
When people say "Crocop isn't good in the octagon" what do they mean? I mean, will he be all of a sudden a lot better when the fighting is in a ring as opposed to an octagon? I don't get it.
 
I still don't believe this decision... The judges are as blind as Hamill is deaf. I guess the TUF posterboy had to win in his homeland. Rogan knew Bisping lost the fight when he said he should drop to 185, but wouldn't say anything for the safety of his paycheck. Bisping is a fucking asshole for talking trash and acting like he dominated in the post interview too. MMA is turning into boxing. Depressing.
 

Rorschach

Member
perryfarrell said:
When people say "Crocop isn't good in the octagon" what do they mean? I mean, will he be all of a sudden a lot better when the fighting is in a ring as opposed to an octagon? I don't get it.
By "octagon" they mean both the octagon itself and the UFC in general. He wasn't very well versed in elbows, for example. That hurt him against Gonzaga. In terms of the physical aspect, there is more space in the octagon and the ref doesn't help you up and re-center if you go against the cage. The cage itself is used to help you get up, pin opponents against it, leverage, etc. It's a much more exhausting thing and you can't use the cage to absorb blows, really. It's also harder to "corner" when there's so much space.

Ned Flanders said:
Rampage has a great MMA skillset, and has continued to adapt and implement his training into improving himself. You're absolutely right about Juanito too (except for him being 3-0..Bisping looked lost..and LOST..IMO). It seems that he does extremely well in preparing his fighters in training and gameplanning specifically toward their opponents strengths and weaknesses, and Rampage has proved the ultimate student in taking all of his input and running with it. The holes in his game have closed considerably, while his repetoire of attack is more well rounded than ever. He's also incredibly composed in the octagon. The early jitters of his fight with Eastman seem like distant memories.
I agree that Bisping looked lost as hell out there, but I think it was because he was probably training the whole time against takedowns and the like. When Hamill came out swinging, it threw him off completely because it was atypical of what he was planning for. Whoever was responsible for teaching Hamill that modified peek-a-boo style was dead on. Perfect for that type of beginner. Hamill's boxing is poor right now, but this way he can focus everything on power. And when he's got some distance, he lowers his guard to make takedowns viable. Now he needs to focus on his combinations and overall technique. He overwhelmed Bisping, but it was through raw tenacity and power. Some of it looked really wild. He has great potential, though.

Bisping is supposed to be a striker, but the first 2 rounds he looked nothing like it. There were so many openings for counters, but all he did was back up and throw punches straight at Hamill's guard...you're not gonna break that with 1 punch, buddy....
 

Hunter D

Member
I wonder what the hell has happened to CC. He must of been juicing in pride. He could defend takedowns from Coleman but not Kongo?
 

Rorschach

Member
Hunter D said:
I wonder what the hell has happened to CC. He must of been juicing in pride. He could defend takedowns from Coleman but not Kongo?
He's cautious of KOs. It's like some QBs after they return from an injury/concussion that was caused by a huge hit. They're never the same again....like Trent Green! :p
 
i actually like Bisping, but he did NOT win that fight. Hammil actually went into his territory and out boxed him. And acting like a bitch after the fight, not being gracious at all, was not a good look. He's treading on Diego Sanchez-levels of douchebaggery now. Hopefully someone beats him soon and knocks his ego down a notch or two.
 

MaX_PL

Banned
Bishman said:
Anyone else besides me impressed with Rampage. Damn he looks unstoppable. He controlled Dan Henderson on the ground like it was nothing, and Rampage actually had great bjj. lol. My heart was beating when Henderson would go for a submission. I thought he was about to catch Rampage with a sub. But as long as Rampage has Juanito on his side, he will keep winning. Juanito went 3-0 tonight. Kongo, Bisping, and Rampage.

Rampage vs winner of Shogun / Forest or Chuck / Jardine vs Silva?

2-0, Bisping didnt win.
 

h_a_t

Member
Ned Flanders said:
As for CroCop...so many things come to mind with CroCop. I mean, you could easily make the assessment that he's been Tito'ed, lost his fighting spirit, and that you'll never see the animal he once was emerge again. He's clearly KO conscious, and now seems dreadfully aware that at any given point, anyone they put in front of him could give him a canvas nap. Its hard to believe that this is the same fighter who stood in front the likes of Hoost, Aerts, and Bonjasky. But by another token, Mirko is clearly lacking dimension in his standup. He stands flat footed, loads up for single kicks and punches, and has no head movement to speak of. In K-1, he still relied heavily on his LHK's and straight punches, but he was a far more dynamic and diverse striker by comparison. If CroCop had a glimmer of the variety and timing to his striking that say..GSP did, he'd be nearly unstoppable. You wouldn't know what to defend when the LHK came calling, but as it is, you can tell nearly seconds in advance when the kick is coming and when to counter. You can also tell when to push the action and put him on the defensive.

Which brings me to another point. Opponents seem to be gameplanning CC quite well, but CC can't gameplan his way out of a paper bag. It seems as though he trains each of his skills generically, but doesn't adapt to the style of his adversary. He would have been better served in cutting Kongo off, jabbing him back toward the cage, and then looking for big strikes by stepping back from close range. Launching the LHK in the center of the octagon seems desperately ineffective at present. I thought to myself, "How can Mirko lose a striking battle with Cheick Kongo when training striking with Gilbert Yvel and Remy Bonjasky?" When watching Mirko's training videos, he and Bonjasky would alternate on offense with 20 or 30 second intervals of strikes, launching soft combinations and clinching/kneeing before switching. It seemed like they were basically doing K-1 standup training in a cage. There was no clinching with strikes while backed into the cage, no footwork for positioning or cutting off the cage to the opponent.

So I don't know. Its true that CroCop has lost more than a bit of his moxy, both in terms of taking punishment and taking chances, and its true that he's still ill-adapted for a cage. He showed a few glimmers, as I saw a dirty boxing uppercut as well as some nice groundwork to get Kongo to the cage after the takedown. Hell he even appeared to look for an armbar at the end of the first round. But in reality, it appears that, assuming CroCop isn't going to retire, he's going to have to undergo a complete retooling in order to compete against the increasingly competitive UFC heavyweight division. Striking is simply going to have to become a facet of his repetoire, and he's going to have to learn transitioning from strikes into clinching and takedowns, as well as the ability to win fights on the ground where he has the advantage (ie such as tonight). I think its probably too late for him to change, and considering how hard he took the GG fight, I'm not sure he recovers from this performance. I won't hold out hope, and I won't fault him if he retires. MMA clearly appears to swiftly passing his style by. Its like he's the Mark Coleman of strikers. Sad but true. I wish CC all the best, whatever he chooses, but I wouldn't advise him returning to fight until he's completely broken and remolded himself into a different fighter. More and harder training won't suffice. He needs Muay Thai, Greco, and better usage of his BJJ potential. Or he could just start training with Fedor.



I'm only quoting the Mirko parts, but all around excellent posting Ned.
Oh, and you used the comparison to Coleman...I'll add one, he's the Tmac of MMA.
:D
 

MaX_PL

Banned
dem said:
Man people need to calm down about the Bisping decision. If youre using the 10 point must system in a 3 round fight... youre going to have some decisions you don't agree with.. especially if you have rounds that arent dominant.

I thought Bisping won aswell..
so did sherdog

well few agree with either of you. sherdog is probably paid off too.
 

SyNapSe

Member
CC just needs to get with someone who can get him back into actual striking, and not just looking for the highlight reel knockout. He needs to use combo's and get people ducking, and backing away from him... then fire the left kick. He's got all the other tools in really solid takedown defense, and ground defense.

I can't believe all the people acting like Chuck is a has been in this thread.
 

yacobod

Banned
i dont think the bisping decision is the travesty ppl are making it out to be either

hammil clearly won the 1st round, bisping took the 3rd, the second could have gone either way, hammil didnt really do anything after round 1 besides lay and pray
 
yacobod said:
i dont think the bisping decision is the travesty ppl are making it out to be either

qft.

I think the dislike for bisping plays into that along with the fact that Hamill clearly won the first round but the next two were pretty close because neither guy was very effective. Like I said, I thought it was 2-1 Bisping but that second round could have gone either way.
 
My only thing with Chuck is that it seems that he has fallen into the superstar mentality.
He likes the club treatment , he likes the superstar treatment and has been seen out partying the night before his last couple of fights.
I think Chuck when he is hungry is a monster, but I think he just kind of started believing his own hype and needed the wake up call that Jackson gave him.
I definitely do not think he is out of it though unless he chooses to be.
 

MaX_PL

Banned
Stoney Mason said:
qft.

I think the dislike for bisping plays into that along with the fact that Hamill clearly won the first round but the next two were pretty close because neither guy was very effective. Like I said, I thought it was 2-1 Bisping but that second round could have gone either way.

except you guys clearly miss the fact that bisping was running for his life the first two rounds. 2 of 3 is all it takes, and bisping running from hamil for 2 rounds makes hamil the winner.
 

Eggo

GameFan Alumnus
OokieSpookie said:
My only thing with Chuck is that it seems that he has fallen into the superstar mentality.
He likes the club treatment , he likes the superstar treatment and has been seen out partying the night before his last couple of fights.
I think Chuck when he is hungry is a monster, but I think he just kind of started believing his own hype and needed the wake up call that Jackson gave him.
I definitely do not think he is out of it though unless he chooses to be.

Chuck should have been hungry to avenge his last remaining defeat. If that isn't cause to focus, I don't know what is.

Next opponent I'd like to see for Cro-cop is Arlovski. Let the two broken fighters mix it up. Hopefully, it is not a snoozefest and one of them remembers what it was like to be a champion at one point.
 

Big-E

Member
Eggo said:
Chuck should have been hungry to avenge his last remaining defeat. If that isn't cause to focus, I don't know what is.

Next opponent I'd like to see for Cro-cop is Arlovski. Let the two broken fighters mix it up. Hopefully, it is not a snoozefest and one of them remembers what it was like to be a champion at one point.

I agree but the chances of this fight not being a snoozer are pretty low.
 
Arlovski and Cro Cop are very much alike and it could be a great fight, but they seem to both be suffering from the same thing.
When Arlovski fought his first few matches he was a monster, he came in like he wanted to tear someone's head off and was relentless.
The last fight he lost to Silva and his most recent fight he didn't have that, he was fighting to survive not fighting to win.
He barely used takedowns, he barely used leg kicks and had very little real aggression.
Cro Cop is the same way, he came out with that look in his eye but then kind of went into points and survival mode.
 

dem

Member
apparently Crocop broke a rib in the first round..
at least thats what someone on sherdog translated his interview to...
i dunno :p
 

pel1300

Member
OokieSpookie said:
My only thing with Chuck is that it seems that he has fallen into the superstar mentality.
He likes the club treatment , he likes the superstar treatment and has been seen out partying the night before his last couple of fights.
I think Chuck when he is hungry is a monster, but I think he just kind of started believing his own hype and needed the wake up call that Jackson gave him.
I definitely do not think he is out of it though unless he chooses to be.

You're a fool if you truly believe he was getting drunk the night before his fights.
 

Thermite

Member
Asbel said:
Would you guys think I'm crazy for picking Rampage in an upset over Wand or Shogun? Let's just say I saw something in the Hendo fight that's making me confident in this pick.

JOOJITZUU! :lol

Not at all. I honestly believe Rampage is levels above what he was in Pride. He has greatly improved in all aspects of his game and at this rate he'll be in the top spot for the Light Heavyweight division in no time. I'm right along side you in picking Rampage to beat both Wanderlei and Shogun in their rematch.

I have a feeling something is going on in Mirko's personal life that's distracting him from training. Maybe it's just because I like the guy so much that I'm making excuses for his performance, but I'm telling you that's not the same guy I saw demolish so many fighters over the years. I want the old Mirko back, damnit! :(
 

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
Just got done watching the whole Tivo'd show. Quintin Jacksons victory speech was awesome. :lol so many awesome lines.

Overall I'm ignoring the Cro Cop loss, because anyone who takes two shots to the nuts in 10 minutes will end up losing the fight they're in. It's about as legitimate to me as Sylvia's throat-punch championship win against Arlovski.

Houston Alexander looks absolutely lethal. Hammil was robbed.
 
whytemyke said:
Just got done watching the whole Tivo'd show. Quintin Jacksons victory speech was awesome. :lol so many awesome lines.

Overall I'm ignoring the Cro Cop loss, because anyone who takes two shots to the nuts in 10 minutes will end up losing the fight they're in. It's about as legitimate to me as Sylvia's throat-punch championship win against Arlovski.

Houston Alexander looks absolutely lethal. Hammil was robbed.

CroCop was fighting like shit well before taking the nut shots. He wasn't going to win that fight either way.
 

Thermite

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
CroCop was fighting like shit well before taking the nut shots. He wasn't going to win that fight either way.

Indeed. It was as if he didn't want to knock the guy out, or rather, didn't have the urge to. This is really going to dampen Mirko's morale now, two loses in a row. Not to mention the fact that he got totally brutalized in both fights. I can only hope he'll come back stronger and better than ever. Perhaps he should take a little break from it like Wanderlei did..
 

dem

Member
his performance?

dude.. he got caught on the chin early. There was no performance to evaluate.
 

Thermite

Member
Mirko spoke about his loss yesterday in this video.

Here's the translation according to "EvilMaster-2". (a message board poster on Sherdog.net)

"What can I say, I'm very disappointed. I broke a rib already in the first round, so I was breathing heavily, I also got two knees in the groin, which hurt my stamina. I feel bad, I fought bad, maybe I'm getting older," he tried to make a joke. "My rib hurts, don't be mad, we're gonna continue. I just want to go home right now and take a rest. We'll see. Thanks to everyone who came to London to support me, thanks!"
 

Piscopink

Member
Just got finished watching UFC 75.

It definitely proved one thing...

52w3ztu.jpg


HOUSTON IS FOR REAL.
 

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
Piscopink said:
Just got finished watching UFC 75.

It definitely proved one thing...

52w3ztu.jpg


HOUSTON IS FOR REAL.


Yeah I said I wanted to see how he fared against someone who actually knew who he was and what to expect. Well I saw it and the man is a BEAST!
 

Takuan

Member
whytemyke said:
Just got done watching the whole Tivo'd show. Quintin Jacksons victory speech was awesome. :lol so many awesome lines.
I've been scrambling to find video of that online to no avail. I wish I had seen it... the bar I was at didn't have audio on, and when I re-watched it online the clip cut off just about after the "hurt my fists with his face" line.
 

dem

Member
yall need to shut the fuck up with the OMG UFC AM CORRUPT LIKE BOXING shit

Dana said he thought Hamill won.
 

yacobod

Banned
ya houston's win was impressive, he finished both of his fights in the ufc explosively in the 1st round, i'd like to see how he fares if the fight goes into the 2nd round etc

hope to see him against some better comp next time, no more tomato cans
 

dem

Member
I'm wonderin about Houston's gas tank.
Even in in the post fight interview backstage he looks like he's gasping for air.. and that fight went like.. a minute! :lol Though I guess maybe he was doing a little cardio after the fight.. i dunno.
 

yacobod

Banned
dem said:
I'm wonderin about Houston's gas tank.
Even in in the post fight interview backstage he looks like he's gasping for air.. and that fight went like.. a minute! :lol Though I guess maybe he was doing a little cardio after the fight.. i dunno.


ya thats what i mean, he was more gassed than frank mir after he subbed hardonek after like 90 seconds too, if you can believe that
 

Thermite

Member
dem said:
I'm wonderin about Houston's gas tank.
Even in in the post fight interview backstage he looks like he's gasping for air.. and that fight went like.. a minute! :lol Though I guess maybe he was doing a little cardio after the fight.. i dunno.

I don't know if it was the combination of his nerves and adrenaline that made breathe heavier or what, but I hope that his cardio isn't that bad. If it is and he doesn't get it fixed before the next fight or two, he'll be in a ton of trouble. (You know all that muscle he's packing has to be taking a toll on his cardio)
 

MaX_PL

Banned
i wanna see houston fight an opponent with a good record, not just no names.

is there a video of the houston fight online?
 

dem

Member
White, who said he felt Hamill won the fight two rounds to one, said he was told the man questioning Bisping was not a reporter, but rather a Hamill cornerman.

But instead of brushing it off and saying he felt he won and moving on, Bisping took a more unbecoming posture.

"Of course," Bisping said in an aggressive tone, which was much different than his witty, light-hearted persona in the days leading up to the fight. "Why would you talk to me like that?"

The questioner then responded, "Seriously?" which seemed to get Bisping further agitated.

"What do you mean, seriously?" Bisping said. "Do you want to go three rounds? … Of course I won the decision. Get the (expletive) out of here. Get that smile off your face."

And then Bisping made an obscene gesture.

:lol

"I don't give a (expletive). We have a different model from boxing. Bisping is a big star in the U.K., but one loss doesn't kill a guy in the UFC. Rampage Jackson beat Chuck Liddell and now he and Chuck are both huge stars. It's a different thing than boxing. But bottom line, not a chance in the world I'd even think of trying to influence the judges."
 

dskillzhtown

keep your strippers out of my American football
dem said:
yall need to shut the fuck up with the OMG UFC AM CORRUPT LIKE BOXING shit

Dana said he thought Hamill won.


The issue for me is that bullshit decisions is one issue that is killing boxing. I am not saying that UFC is going to die because of it, but in any sport with judging, it is never good to have questionable decisions. Especially when it appears that location is a factor. If anything, Dana saying that he think Hamill won calls into question the judging at this event. I do not believe UFC has some conspiraacy going on, just some shitty judges at times.
 

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
After watching the fight a third time and reading the article on Yahoo about the decision I've decided I'm ok with it. Basically if anyone thought the third round was close enough to give to Hamil(and both the writer and one judge did) then I feel the second was easily close enough to give to Bisping. in the 3rd Hamil did nothing but get a takedown and do his best Jake O'Brien impression for the next 40 seconds while Bisping landed a plethora of nice strikes and managed to get up from Hamils LnP without taking any damage at all. The second round much more back and forth.


I would probably STILL give the fight to Hamil but I can now understand giving it to Bisping.
 
Cerebral Palsy said:
Bisping spent the first two rounds running away. Bisping wasn't active until the 3rd when he became the agressor and stuffed some takedowns, yet he wasn't even a clear winner of the 3rd. Didn't really matter as he was down 2 rounds at that point. At least one judge wasn't paid off and got the score right. What a joke. Might as well start watching the WWE.

I had six people over to watch the event and every single one of them wanted to know how in the fuck that the fight had been judged that way. That was one of the worst decisions I've seen in a fight.
 
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