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[Stilton Disco]

If it's designed to run games at 1440p, that's a nice bit of downsampling for 1080p tv sets, without going overboard.

No disc drive seems a bit of a weird choice though. The budget conscious customers this is aimed at will be the same ones buying games on sale in supermarkets or second hand.

I know we're moving steadily to more and more digital sales, but I'm not sure this is going to be a great selling point to the budget constrained.

 

[Thief1987]

It always was. It's 3.6GHz with SMT enabled. PS5's GPU has SMT enabled.

So it's 3.6 (xsx) vs 3.5 (ps5)

Without SMT it's not 16-threads CPU, so this line is misleading.

 

[Aladin]

Microsoft is considered a premium brand in developing countries. Series S priced at equivalent 300$ in local currency after taxes is highly attractive to upper middle classes in india, china, indonesia, vietnam.

Since gaming is a taboo in those countries, branding console as Microsoft and showing off Flight simulator demo in shops will allay parental fear. The potential is huge man !

 

[GHG]

Less RAM?

Are you fucking serious?

 

[Jon Neu]

Microsoft wants to have the most powerful console (X), and also the cheapest console (S).
My question is .... Series S will be a problem for Series X? their games will have to be optimized for Series S as well and could be a problem for developers wanting to exploit Series X?

I'm sure they have been designed to be greatly scalable between them.

You just program for the X and then make a quick cheap port for the S sacrificing resolution and/or fps and some bells & whistles.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

If it's designed to run games at 1440p, that's a nice bit of downsampling for 1080p tv sets, without going overboard.

No disc drive seems a bit of a weird choice though. The budget conscious customers this is aimed at will be the same ones buying games on sale in supermarkets or second hand.

I know we're moving steadily to more and more digital sales, but I'm not sure this is going to be a great selling point to the budget constrained.

This is a strong argument.

I concur, but you could also argue that lump sum payments like putting $500 down on a console is a psychological barrier for most. Whereas paying for one or two games per year is easier to stomach. So it's tackling the first hurdle so to speak and the second hurdle may in fact not be one from a customer behavioral standpoint.

 

[Anal Wake]

For 199$, after taking a substantial loss, Series S would be the most popular next-gen console. The cheapest way the experience new games in 1080p/1440p with still stellar IQ.

Just imagine Microsoft flooding the market with its 199$ console and gaining Game Pass subscribers like crazy. The would lost a shitton of money year after year, but in the long term it would be totally worth it.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Microsoft wants to have the most powerful console (X), and also the cheapest console (S).
My question is .... Series S will be a problem for Series X? their games will have to be optimized for Series S as well and could be a problem for developers wanting to exploit Series X?

What makes me wonder about this is the lack of the split RAM pool clearly shows it's not just a weaker GPU here, but some significantly differently hardware set ups.

People swear blind that there's zero problems with a weaker system if it just lowers resolution, but we definitely need to see some comparisons between miltiplats on XSS, XSX and PS5

 

[John254]

Gpu wise its weaker than x1x even considering rdna 2 vs gcn. 6tf gcn performs better than 4 tf rdna by around 20 %.

4tf rdna acts like 5.1 tf gcn which is still weakep than x1x

But ssd and cpu eats x1x alive

Memory is also worse than x1x so for BC it can not play x1x version but rather x1s versions

Nope. DF made a video about it and RDNA 1 with 4TFLOPs +- matches the performance of GCN 6TFLOPS GPU

And that's RDNA 1 not 2. And we are not even talking about CPU difference



Also. Lockhart is 1080/1440p machine. Xbox One X was 4K machine

 

[Jon Neu]

No disc drive seems a bit of a weird choice though. The budget conscious customers this is aimed at will be the same ones buying games on sale in supermarkets or second hand.

Budget wise, gamepass beats that.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Without SMT it's not 16-threads CPU, so this line is misleading.

What's misleading?

PS5 vs. Xbox Series X: a complicated battle of SSD and GPU speeds

Game developers will demonstrate the real power of both consoles

www.theverge.com

 

[Jon Neu]

For 199$, after taking a substantial loss, Series S would be the most popular next-gen console. The cheapest way the experience new games in 1080p/1440p with still stellar IQ.

Just imagine Microsoft flooding the market with its 199$ console and gaining Game Pass subscribers like crazy. The would lost a shitton of money year after year, but in the long term it would be totally worth it.

No way this is a 199$, not at launch.

 

[Panajev2001a]

For 199$, after taking a substantial loss, Series S would be the most popular next-gen console. The cheapest way the experience new games in 1080p/1440p with still stellar IQ.

Just imagine Microsoft flooding the market with its 199$ console and gaining Game Pass subscribers like crazy. The would lost a shitton of money year after year, but in the long term it would be totally worth it.

Unless this for

What's misleading?

PS5 vs. Xbox Series X: a complicated battle of SSD and GPU speeds

Game developers will demonstrate the real power of both consoles

www.theverge.com

Just the fact that it does not run at 3.8 GHz when. Running in 16 threads mode/appearing as 16 virtual cores.

 

[danielJackson]

No disc drive = useless to many

Xbox physical games are super cheap here as "nobody" wants them, specially used ones are like 5-15€. And new ones are mostly on bargain bins.

Gamepass is too expensive for few games on secondary console.

No sane people pay for more than 1 video streaming service, so same with ps+ owners I guess, so this is not good cheap secondary system if user is forced to buy expensive digital games

I considered this for flight simulator but no thanks if cant buy disc for few euros

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Tom seems to think its going to do RT

How are they even going to accomplish that with such a weaksauce GPU?

 

[Sw0pDiller]

they kill off their own series x with this unit. Plus PS5 will destroy both with that rumoured 399 pricetag for Digital....

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Just the fact that it does not run at 3.8 GHz when. Running in 16 threads mode/appearing as 16 virtual cores.

I'm confused. Are you saying what I'm saying is misleading or what MS is saying? Because I'm just quoting what they said.

Tom seems to think its going to do RT

How are they even going to accomplish that with such a weaksauce GPU?

Lower res.

 

[pawel86ck]

Gpu wise its weaker than x1x even considering rdna 2 vs gcn. 6tf gcn performs better than 4 tf rdna by around 20 %.

4tf rdna acts like 5.1 tf gcn which is still weakep than x1x

But ssd and cpu eats x1x alive

Memory is also worse than x1x so for BC it can not play x1x version but rather x1s versions

Indeed, it looks like XSS will not play Xbox One X enhanced games. I remember what MS said in regards to XSX power, and they never take achitecture gains into account. Even with architecture gains 4TF RDNA would be only as fast as 5TF GCN polaris. With only 10GB RAM on top of that we cant really expect XSS to run Xbox One X enhanced games.

 

[Jon Neu]

Also. Lockhart is 1080/1440p machine. Xbox One X was 4K machine

Yep. What the XSS can do at 1080p it's going to be faaaar beyond of what the One X could do at sub 4K.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Less RAM?

Are you fucking serious?

I don't see the problem. A lower resolution means less RAM demand.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

I liked next gen a lot more when the PS5 with 10tf was the "weakest" development target...and now we have this ...thing... singlehandedly dragging down the baseline for everyone...thanks MS.....

 

[Zoro7]

Doesn’t the lack of disc drive go against everything Microsoft’s been saying. Backwards compatibility is supposedly a huge selling point for many. This console warrants that useless for anyone with physical versions of a game.

 

[DavidGzz]

If it's designed to run games at 1440p, that's a nice bit of downsampling for 1080p tv sets, without going overboard.

No disc drive seems a bit of a weird choice though. The budget conscious customers this is aimed at will be the same ones buying games on sale in supermarkets or second hand.

I know we're moving steadily to more and more digital sales, but I'm not sure this is going to be a great selling point to the budget constrained.

Xbox digital console owners wouldn't mind. Then you have Game Pass subscribers that also won't care. It will sell just fine and so will the PS5 DE.

 

[Anal Wake]

No way this is a 199$, not at launch.

I just went full day dreaming there I reasonably expect it to launch at 299 with 499 Xbox Series X.

 

[danielJackson]

For 199$, after taking a substantial loss, Series S would be the most popular next-gen console. The cheapest way the experience new games in 1080p/1440p with still stellar IQ.

Just imagine Microsoft flooding the market with its 199$ console and gaining Game Pass subscribers like crazy. The would lost a shitton of money year after year, but in the long term it would be totally worth it.

They have sold one s /sad for 99-199€ on many places and they still wont sell that well.

Some buy the cheapest one, true. But I would bet that majority wont change system just because one is cheaper. Taste for certain games are biggest reason for people to choose one brand gen after gen.

Always so weird to see people talking about console gens like switching a toothpaste brand. I know only few people whom have switched from xbox to Playstation since ps1, but none other way around.

It should happen more often in my circles if that would be a thing.


199€ system could be like wii, non-gamers could buy it, but wii sold with move controls so probably wont happen with Xses

 

[Jon Neu]

No disc drive = useless to many

Xbox physical games are super cheap here as "nobody" wants them, specially used ones are like 5-15€. And new ones are mostly on bargain bins.

Gamepass is too expensive for few games on secondary console.

No sane people pay for more than 1 video streaming service, so same with ps+ owners I guess, so this is not good cheap secondary system if user is forced to buy expensive digital games

I considered this for flight simulator but no thanks if cant buy disc for few euros

Most hardcore gamers want physical games anyway, so getting rid of the disc drive it's a smart solution to make the XSS the entry level gamepass next gen experience for the less enthusiast market.

And with Gamepass you are going to have access to a shitload of Xbox One Enhanced games + a lot of XSX games. You will also have discounts for online games and the likes.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Sony fanboys are sweating after seeing this thing. I strongly suspect everyone knows how little graphics matter and how much price does for gamers who don't post on enthusiast message boards. This is a power play by MS which may have caught Sony off guard.

 

[GHG]

I don't see the problem. A lower resolution means less RAM demand.

Yes but this is a shared ram pool so that means more considerations will need to be made than "just drop the resolution".

 

[Stilton Disco]

If this is super cheap, like $299 or less cheap, another interesting question is how well this will compete with the Switch.

Because I'm thinking this would be a great kids console, rather than the more teen to adult narket they've been struggling with previously.

However that would seem like they'd just be tapping out of the fight with Sony, only to immediately try to rugby tackle Nintendo.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yes but this is a shared ram pool so that means more considerations will need to be made than "just drop the resolution".

Drop the resolution and some bells and whistles graphic wise and you pretty much have it.

 

[xiseerht]

No disc drive = useless to many

Xbox physical games are super cheap here as "nobody" wants them, specially used ones are like 5-15€. And new ones are mostly on bargain bins.

Gamepass is too expensive for few games on secondary console.

No sane people pay for more than 1 video streaming service, so same with ps+ owners I guess, so this is not good cheap secondary system if user is forced to buy expensive digital games

I considered this for flight simulator but no thanks if cant buy disc for few euros

I don't even know where to start here . Gamepass is 9.99 a month and you can get access to almost 200 games and that is too expensive? Also , I currently paying for Hulu , Netflix and Hbo Max monthly for my streaming video services , because they have different programs. And if you want the physical disc . You can still buy the Series X , or find the Xbox one S or One X since you said " nobody" wants them there . And the price of digital games are pretty equal to physical games . And if you are taking about OG Xbox games and 360 games. Those games digital are normally 14.99 and lower. And they are always on sale .

 

[BlueXImpulse]

I wonder how MS is going to market this. 'Plays the same games as Series X but cheaper'? It would be a bit misleading. How do you market this without outright making it seem like a poorer experience?

 

[FeiRR]

Sony fanboys are sweating after seeing this thing. I strongly suspect everyone knows how little graphics matter and how much price does for gamers who don't post on enthusiast message boards. This is a power play by MS which may have caught Sony off guard.

I think I've already seen that punchline...

 

[Max_Po]

why couldn't they make a 6 tf box for 299 ?

 

[Jon Neu]

I wonder how MS is going to market this. 'Plays the same games as Series X but cheaper'? It would be a bit misleading. How do you market this without outright making it seem like a poorer experience?

You show the games XSS version vs the XSX version.

Most casuals aren't even going to notice the difference.

 

[MrS]

I think it will appeal to the casual gamer who wants a good new machine to play shit like Fortnite, rocket league, Apex and game pass on. I think it’s gonna cause a lot of problems regarding “games being held back” etc down the line. Going to be interesting to see how the market reacts to it at launch. I prefer this strategy of a strong console and a weaker console over Sony’s strategy of the same console just without a disc drive. There’s enough differentiation between X and S to justify the existence of S.

 

[Anal Wake]

Oh, and about the disc drive - I hope they release both consoles (XSS and XSX) without it. Haven’t used a game disc since 2014. All digital is so much more convenient.

 

[GHG]

I wonder how MS is going to market this. 'Plays the same games as Series X but cheaper'? It would be a bit misleading. How do you market this without outright making it seem like a poorer experience?

Honestly I think they will spend the bulk of their marketing on this console + gamepass whereas the Series X is there for the hardcore who would already be aware of it anyway.

If this is priced at $299 then it's aimed squarely at the mass market.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Drop the resolution and some bells and whistles graphic wise and you pretty much have it.

That is neither how render pipelines work nor how software development works.
Tooling, staffing, QA, certification.....all those efforts just doubled.
And since downscaling is usually a lot harder than upscaling ...well you can fill in the rest.

 

[Agnostic2020]

You're wrong.

So tell me .why does xss plays x1s versions instead of x1x versions for BC?

 

[30yearsofhurt]

So how do I play all my old X360 and XBO discs on this?

 

[Ellery]

Tom seems to think its going to do RT

How are they even going to accomplish that with such a weaksauce GPU?

RayTracing is rendered by pixel so RayTracing at 4K would be roughly 4 times as demanding as the "same level" of RayTracing at 1080p. And you can also change the samples per pixel. That is what happens when you have a game like Metro Exodus and change the RTX settings from High to Ultra or Extreme. You basically have more Samples per pixel. They could just turn down the samples per pixel for the Series S.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Xbox digital console owners wouldn't mind. Then you have Game Pass subscribers that also won't care. It will sell just fine and so will the PS5 DE.

I thought the SAD console had never particularly sold well?

But yes, Gamepass and this is quite an interesting value proposition.

I'm still weary of this thing being either a viable stratergy, or it having absolutely no negative consequences for next gen game development should it prove to be successful.

 

[FranXico]

This is what will replace the Xbox One S then. But, there will only be SAD.

 

[longdi]

I don't even know where to start here . Gamepass is 9.99 a month and you can get access to almost 200 games and that is too expensive? Also , I currently paying for Hulu , Netflix and Hbo Max monthly for my streaming video services , because they have different programs. And if you want the physical disc . You can still buy the Series X , or find the Xbox one S or One X since you said " nobody" wants them there . And the price of digital games are pretty equal to physical games . And if you are taking about OG Xbox games and 360 games. Those games digital are normally 14.99 and lower. And they are always on sale .

Yap you have modern thinking, the group MS is targetting.
I mean if you stick to old mindset, yeah XSS without a disc drive is questionable, since most 'poor' buying it, usually would grab a disc or do trade-ins.

But habits seems shifting, and GP is a godsend to pair with XSS

 

[Goncas2]

Once again, the thing I'm worried about is the amount of RAM.

If we assume the CPU is targeted to use 3.5GB, just like the XSX, and the OS uses 2GB (0.5GB less than the XSX because it's in 1080p), then that leaves the GPU with only 4.5GB available.

That's less than HALF the targeted amount for the XSX! And lowering the resolution is nowhere near enough to compensate that discrepancy in most, if not all, games. Something else might need to get sacrificed, and I just hope it doesn't affect game development workflow, or game design.

 

[deriks]

No disc drive?! Oh, that's bad

 

[RayHell]

So they're saving costs on GPU size, cooling and disc drive. Which isn't gonna add up to anything like $300 lower BOM or whatever. So if MS wants this to be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than the be PS5 they're gonna have to take a sizable loss on this thing. Which they're maybe okay with.

Power supply, ram, SSD ?

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

What's going on, why haven't they announced it yet? Seriously, 3 months till release only. Maybe they are prepping this low specced machine for March 2021.

 

[Allandor]

Oh, and about the disc drive - I hope they release both consoles (XSS and XSX) without it. Haven’t used a game disc since 2014. All digital is so much more convenient.

for the XSS it makes sense to release it without a disc drive, but for the more expensive xsx (whatever it will cost, it won't be cheap) $20 (max) won't make such a huge difference. Yes they could subsidize the console a bit more because you go all digital and therefore you most buy via MS store (or key-stores) but this would at best bei $50 less (like we've seen with the all digital edition of the xbox one s).
For a console that cost >$500 it just doesn't make sense to release it with less features (like playing blu rays, even though almost no one use that feature anymore).