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[excelsiorlef]

Well I guess both. If they're elevating his levels to be more in line with guys his age and guys his age aren't allowed to compete with the girls because of biological advantages such as higher test then wouldn't he have an advantage? I mean the guy did win the tournament.

By forfeit

 

[HawksWinStanley]

By forfeit

You don't make it to regional finals by sucking.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You don't make it to regional finals by sucking.

Clearly he doesn't suck but are we saying it's all just testosterone

 

[Ketch]

Is there no way to separate the use of testosterone from gender in this case?

I understand and fully endorse a zero tolerance policy for steroid use in kids sports

I also believe that it's important for a trans person to be able to live as the gender they identify as early in development free from other people pressuring them on what that is.

In this specific case, I think the onus is on the state or school district to clarify the rule.

The situation seems backwards. The athlete should have not been allowed to compete based on testosterone use, and then the family would file suit against the school/state in order to get the rule changed. It seems like here the school/state made an exception to a rule (an important rule, no steroids) and now these are the consequences. Except, it should fall on the school/state not the athlete, they didn't do anything wrong.

Edit: I see the that the suit is against the league not the student. Good.

 

[Cybit]

Because regular anti-doping testing during childhood and adolescent sports seems like a bit of overkill.

Interesting problem. I admit I'm not sure what the right thing is when it comes to hormones and competitive sports.

Someone undergoing hormone treatment at that age is probably getting even stricter testing than most anti-doping testing just to make sure they are transitioning safely.

I wouldn't have thought that most athletic committees would allow athletes to use high levels of testosterone and compete in amateur athletics, even if the testosterone is being used for another reason like gender re-assignment, and not performance enhancement.

Athletics have skirted this issue in the past, even without gender issues. Many athletes are prescribed hormones and drugs for recovering from surgery or injuries but are not allowed to compete in the sport while under the influence of the drug. Certainly, the therapeutic drug is being used for a benign (or benevolent) purpose, but it's still a banned substance when it comes to competing.

I'd have think this would be similar. I think the rule that "you can only compete as the gender (or sex) you were born with" is not right. Obviously there has to be some control so that somebody isn't seriously injured. I think it becomes a lot dicier when people born as men but have undergone gender re-assignment want to compete against women than it does in the reverse like in this case.

When I was undergoing chemo (was 14) and had to be put on several steroids and testosterone after the treatment ended, I basically had to end my HS tennis career after my freshman year because I was breaking the anti-doping rules with my treatment. Which, to be fair, was probably the right thing to do - because I was able to build muscle much quicker and train way harder than they could, even after suffering pretty bad after-effects from the chemo itself. Testosterone supplements at that age can do some insane things, and I was competing with other guys, not women.

It's a dumb rule, the league needs to change it, and for any transitioning competitors, they should have their testosterone / hormone levels monitored and used as an appropriate measure for competition. This does not seem complicated.

(MMA & Boxing are the two sports where this becomes a much more thorny issue due to the fact that actual damage is being dealt to each other - but I have zero idea how the hell to figure that one out)

 

[Chezzymann]

Gender identity aside, the article mentions that the lawsuit is over someone effectively taking steroids and competing. I think that is a reasonable complaint.

Yup, makes perfect sense.

 

[Cyan]

1. We will still have the problem of given his opponents a disadvantage.

Solution: fix the rule.

2. What about a case of an MTF girl having to wrestle against guys?

Again, just fix the rule.

 

[Jenov]

They should be suing the state to fix the rule.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

They should be suing the state to fix the rule.

The state didn't set the rule. The University Interscholastic League, which does not report to the state, did.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Because I know what that would mean to the trans-kid and how he would feel for being excluded for being the person he is. Is that less important than the other females' chances to win a competition?

It's less important than the women possibly getting hurt because they're forced to compete against someone who is changing his body to be more like a mans.

I mean, obviously they should let him wrestle other guys, but if they're not going to do that then it's not really fair to all of the girls involved.

 

[Zoe]

The state didn't set the rule. The University Interscholastic League, which does not report to the state, did.

And I would think he is the one who should be suing the UIL, not his opponents.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If a woman has male levels of testosterone, they do bar them.

This is completely on the laws being antiquated and lawmakers being ignorant and stupid-not on the kid at all.

Who is they in this example? The IOC and IAAF don't anymore.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Clearly he doesn't suck but are we saying it's all just testosterone

I don't think it's ever all testosterone. But you have to acknowledge that if you have a level playing field and then throw testosterone into the mix you're going to see an advantage.

So in this case I don't think it's appropriate and possibly dangerous for this guy to continue wrestling girls. Meanwhile that past case where the transgender high school runner who was competing with other girls started catching shit for being transgender, but since she had been supposedly undergoing HRT for a while there's no practical reason to think she shouldn't be able to compete with other girls. Especially based on the Olympic regulations currently in place.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

And I would think he is the one who should be suing the UIL, not his opponents.

There's a number of reasons he might be choosing not to fight it out in court, not the least of which is cost.

 

[kirblar]

Who is they in this example? The IOC and IAAF don't anymore.

IOC still maintains testosterone limits, at least for transitioning athletes: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

 

[momshotdad]

I understand being mad if I was the father of a girl who got beat by a transgender boy in the girl's bracket, but a lawsuit is overkill.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

IOC still maintains testosterone limits, at least for transitioning athletes: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

those are for male to female transitions they aren't allowed the same regulations for women anymore unless they make a convincing case for it until this july.

 

[sibarraz]

[/B]

To your last point, In lots of case, college scholarship are dependent on how well you compete, and your placement (achievement-wise) in the "FUCKING CHILDREN COMPETITION"

Besides this, I have my doubts that the WWE as the major league for pro wrestling could create a transgender wrestler without being tasteless as fuck

 

[Ketkat]

A lot of people are arguing about trans women having inherent advantages over cis women. Why do we allow every race to compete against every other race then? Races do have some inherent advantages over each other, for instance Asian women tend to be smaller and shorter than other women. Why is it fair for Asian women to have to face taller women but its not fair for cis women to have to face trans women?

 

[VoxPop]

Haha having an non liberal view about something on this site will probably get you instabanned by trigger happy mods. Probably best to just stay out of this thread and many others. Tread carefully y'all!

 

[Ketkat]

Haha having an non liberal view about something on this site will probably get you instabanned by trigger happy mods. Probably best to just stay out of this thread and many others. Tread carefully y'all!

No one has been banned in this thread. Why not try actually voicing your opinion instead of this passive aggressive crap?

 

[BajiBoxer]

Haha having an non liberal view about something on this site will probably get you instabanned by trigger happy mods. Probably best to just stay out of this thread and many others. Tread carefully y'all!

So you lack the intellegence to even begin to defend your (likely bigoted) opinion, and decided whining about banning in a thread where no one has been banned is the way to deal with it.

 

[AoM]

A lot of people are arguing about trans women having inherent advantages over cis women. Why do we allow every race to compete against every other race then? Races do have some inherent advantages over each other, for instance Asian women tend to be smaller and shorter than other women. Why is it fair for Asian women to have to face taller women but its not fair for cis women to have to face trans women?

Seems like a false equivalence.

 

[Ketkat]

Seems like a false equivalence.

Explain how. One group has a perceived advantage over the other group. Why is it okay for one group and not the other?

And you could try and bring up how sports are already segregated by male/female and how you don't feel that fits here.

I'll just point you to The Negro Leagues.

 

[BajiBoxer]

A lot of people are arguing about trans women having inherent advantages over cis women. Why do we allow every race to compete against every other race then? Races do have some inherent advantages over each other, for instance Asian women tend to be smaller and shorter than other women. Why is it fair for Asian women to have to face taller women but its not fair for cis women to have to face trans women?

It's not inherent, but hormone levels certainly can give an added advantage. It's how many peds work. The rules for a lot of sports need modernized to be based on actual science rather than birth certificate or self identification. The reality is also that women's leagues exist partly because of real physical differences. It's why sometimes a woman will compete in the "men's" league if she's good enough, but not the other way around.

 

[Ketkat]

It's not inherent, but hormone levels certainly can give an added advantage. It's how many peds work. The rules for a lot of sports need modernized to be based on actual science rather than birth certificate or self identification. The reality is also that women's leagues exist partly because of real physical differences. It's why sometimes a woman will compete in the "men's" league if she's good enough, but not the other way around.

And there are real physical differences between races as well. Does that mean the Negro Leagues were okay?

On top of that, are you even considering what HRT does for trans people?

 

[kirblar]

Men's leagues are effectively "Open" leagues.

Women's are exclusionary by design because of the competitive advantages men have over them.

 

[AoM]

And there are real physical differences between races as well. Does that mean the Negro Leagues were okay?

On top of that, are you even considering what HRT does for trans people?

Just doing some quick searches, I'm finding differences when it comes to short- and long-distance running (something about muscle fibers and lung capacity). To me it seems like the physiological differences would be more pronounced between men and women than between those of different races.

 

[Ketkat]

Just doing some quick searches, I'm finding differences when it comes to short- and long-distance running (something about muscle fibers and lung capacity). To me it seems like the physiological differences would be more pronounced between men and women than between those of different races.

Okay good, you've identified what the main differences in sports are for men and women.

This article's pretty good about going in-depth on how some of those change when transitioning :

http://www.shape.com/lifestyle/mind...ffect-transgender-athletes-sports-performance

 

[Agent_ShortBus]

idiotic rules.

In California we had a girl on our wrestling team who wrestled boys just fine, and this was at a Catholic school, for Christ's sake.

I remember in high school there was a girl who played on our football team. She always practiced with us and played in friendly school vs school games but wasn't allowed to play in regular season games. Such bullshit, she also hit hard as fuck alot harder than most of the guys on our team. Who knows maybe we would have had a better shot at our CIF championship game if she had played with us.

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

He won 12-2.

http://www.chron.com/sports/highsch...wrestler-wins-state-championship-10959647.php

Should be perversely fascinating to see what happens now. I am happy that the UIL looks ridiculous here because this never should have happened, very unfair to both competitors. Good for beggs, took a lot of guts to get out there in all,of this. Remarkable.

 

[Cyanity]

Transgender law is so fucked right now. Why can't we just treat people like the gender they associate with?

Btw notice Baudin called him she and her...

Just so we really know who were dealing with here.

This is the damning bit of evidence.

 

[How About No]

He won 12-2.

http://www.chron.com/sports/highsch...wrestler-wins-state-championship-10959647.php

Should be perversely fascinating to see what happens now. I am happy that the UIL looks ridiculous here because this never should have happened, very unfair to both competitors. Good for beggs, took a lot of guts to get out there in all,of this. Remarkable.

Hell yeah!

 

[AoM]

56-0

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Video here

http://bit.ly/2l0aliX

Audible boos there not sure if it's a small percentage of the crowd but still far too much!

 

[Platy]

Shocking that he won.

That is what you get for living in a transphobic state =P

 

[Pizza]

Law should be changed imo. If he is transitioning into a guy and wants to be a guy and is getting the hormones to become a guy then he is no longer "girl" enough for the girl league, imo.

I live in Texas, that law is dumb. If my kid was transitioning I'd want them to be able to compete with the group they identify with. Not to mention guys generally can't compete in girls sporting leagues

 

[nekkid]

I honestly don't know the answer to this, but is testosterone treatment likely to improve performance if you are male?

I guess what I'm asking is whether it could be considered a performance enhancer.

 

[Liamario]

I can't say I disagree with the decision. The differentiation is in place due to the biological differences between male and female (strength, speed etc.). This wasn't about identity.

 

[Ketkat]

I can't say I disagree with the decision. The differentiation is in place due to the biological differences between male and female (strength, speed etc.). This wasn't about identity.

Then you should try reading the thread

 

[Liamario]

Then you should try reading the thread

Maybe you should provide a counter point, rather than assuming I don't know the circumstances.

 

[Platy]

I honestly don't know the answer to this, but is testosterone treatment likely to improve performance if you are male?

I guess what I'm asking is whether it could be considered a performance enhancer.

It can improve if you are male, but places like the olympic comitee allow people with hormonal inbalances to take testosterone as long as they prove they have it within "normal" levels

 

[nekkid]

It can improve if you are male, but places like the olympic comitee allow people with hormonal inbalances to take testosterone as long as they prove they have it within "normal" levels

To me this is the issue. Obviously it's unrealistic to do that kind of testing for such a tournament, but if I knew my child was facing an opponent taking a supplement that was considered performance-enhancing without proof of the quantity in their system, I'd consider it unfair.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Let him wrestle in the male side of things. Testosterone treatment helps develop strength and gives an unfair advantage for him to be wrestling against females. If they do nothing, then your going to have females thinking they should take testosterone to be able to compete. Its basically a PED in some cases. Training is of course huge too, of course.

 

[nekkid]

Let him wrestle in the male side of things. Testosterone treatment helps develop strength and gives an unfair advantage for him to be wrestling against females. If they do nothing, then your going to have females thinking they should take testosterone to be able to compete. Its basically a PED in some cases. Training is of course huge too, of course.

Without testing, whose to say they haven't taken enough testosterone to put them at an advantage against the males, though.

 

[Ketkat]

Without testing, whose to say they haven't taken enough testosterone to put them at an advantage against the males, though.

You do realize trans people get regular blood tests from doctors, right?

Maybe you should provide a counter point, rather than assuming I don't know the circumstances.

They've been given multiple times already in the thread

 

[Platy]

To me this is the issue. Obviously it's unrealistic to do that kind of testing for such a tournament, but if I knew my child was facing an opponent taking a supplement that was considered performance-enhancing without proof of the quantity in their system, I'd consider it unfair.

It is super unfair.

But it is not his problem, HE WANTS TO PLAY WITH THE BOYS but the problem was a shitty transphobic law.

So there is no point of protesting against HIM !

This is what is happening when people go against him :

He is taking the scraps of what he can to do what he loves and the average person thinks it is his fault for something transphobic politicians did

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Without testing, whose to say they haven't taken enough testosterone to put them at an advantage against the males, though.

I don't know what the level should be to wrestle males or if there is "normal level" for either gender. I mean, there probably is, but I just don't know what they are. And then you get into how some people just naturally have more or less testosterone, in both men and women sports.

I do know that even in male sports testosterone replacement therapy is banned for divisions. Even like in men's side of UFC. They treat it like a PED.

Do we know what his testosterone was at?

Best on looking around, in general, these graphs kind of show the differences in male vs female testosterone levels.

I want him to be able to wrestle, and he should wrestle in the division he wants to.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Remember, sports are serious enough business that trans rights should be secondary to your child getting a shiny medal.

 

[nekkid]

You do realize trans people get regular blood tests from doctors, right?

Of course I do, don't patronise me.

But are those tests inspected and determined to fall within restrictions out by the organisers of this event? Are random blood tests performed? Of course not.