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[Mister Apoc]

https://nypost.com/2018/02/25/transgender-boy-wins-girls-state-wrestling-title-for-second-time/

there has to be some type of line here, i understand there are complex, tricky politics in all of this

but this isn't fair at all, there are physical realities between a biological male and female that make this simply an uneven playing field

 

[CampbellzSoup]

That is in no way fair to actual women...at all. Men have biological differences in terms of strength.

 

[Mister Apoc]

That is in no way fair to actual women...at all. Men have biological differences in terms of strength.

well its actually a female to male transition

but he is actually taking testosterone so again not fair at all

 

[KevinKeene]

To be honest, this is something that should easily self-regulate itself. If transgender people start winning at sports, other athletes will eventually speak up. As long as they don't, I feel that it's not up yo me to complain.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

"Beggs had asked to wrestle in the boys’ division, but the rules for Texas public high schools require athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate."

LOL those idiots played themselves. Good for him.

 

[Dr. Claus]

well its actually a female to male transition

but he is actually taking testosterone so again not fair at all

Yep. There is plenty of evidence that shows that testosterone, even in low doses, promote growth of muscle mass and strength. I believe that the school should honour Mack's wishes and let him wrestle in the boys league. They are taking obvious moves to transition and the results are evident.

 

[David___]

The school should actually let him wrestle with other men because the other option is not allowing him to compete because he’s transgendered

 

[SoulUnison]

This seems pretty cut and dry. He wants to be a man, that's the arena he wants to compete in and that's what's probably most physically appropriate for him.

They're really only making this an issue by sort of going out of their way to.

 

[Corrik]

Can hate on me all you want, but he shouldn't be allowed to compete at all. He is taking a banned substance for cosmetic reasons and that should not be an acceptable reason.

He should have to compete in the classification of his sex. That is correct. However, he should not be allowed to take a banned substance and be allowed to compete.

If he wishes to take testosterone, that is his choice. However, with that choice comes the consequences the chemicals used to complete that process come with.

We should not be bending the rules to conform with people's choices. You can make your choice and live with the rules in place and accept them.

You ruined how many girls seasons and wrestling ambitions because you allowed someone taking testosterone to compete with them. If it is a banned substance, it should not have been allowed to happen.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Your move Texas.

Corrick, technology advances and societies progress. If he went to the men's league they'd have a tremendous advantage over him, but that's what he wants. Steroids probably couldn't easily make up the difference (which they would nail him for anyway).

So let him compete and prove himself.

 

[Corrik]

Your move Texas.

You act like this is a new topic. This is the second year this happened. Girls even have forfeited lest wrestle with him in the state tournament.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

"Beggs had asked to wrestle in the boys’ division, but the rules for Texas public high schools require athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate."

LOL those idiots played themselves. Good for him.

Exactly, this feels more like an attack on transitioning individuals more than it is "unfair" that he won.

Just let him fucking wrestle with boys...

 

[Vicetrailia]

You act like this is a new topic. This is the second year this happened. Girls even have forfeited lest wrestle with him in the state tournament.

All I can do is shrug. I feel for those women, but they should bump him to thr boys. Problem solved. If he goes to college he'll probably compete with men right?

 

[TrainedRage]

In my district wrestling is a coed sport. It's broken down by weight class. I have seen girls that destroy boys the same weight. I see nothing wrong here as long as steroids or other muscle enhancements are not being taken. Plus it's an excuse to throw down against the opposite sex.

 

[Sapiens]

^
I like this solution.

 

[royox]

To be honest, this is something that should easily self-regulate itself. If transgender people start winning at sports, other athletes will eventually speak up. As long as they don't, I feel that it's not up yo me to complain.

I don't see any athlete saying anything just for fear of the overreaction.

 

[bigedole]

I think I agree with Corrik as long as the assumption that testosterone is normally a banned substance is true. I don't believe it should be ok only for certain circumstances. If someone finds their life in a place where they need testosterone to accomplish a goal then they shouldn't be wrestling competitively.

 

[KevinKeene]

I don't see any athlete saying anything just for fear of the overreaction.

At which point sports will fall apart and become a laughing stock. Someone involved will eventually speak up. I'm not involved, I play Mario Kart.

 

[VAL0R]

Mack's birth gender is female and the school district rules state you can only wrestle against those of your birth gender. This seems fair to me and sensible for many reasons. Mack takes steroids in an effort to become a trans man, which are a banned substance in the sport. These steroids give Mack a huge unfair advantage against the girls who do not and can not take steroids. Clearly Mack should be required to stop taking steroids in order to compete with drug free girls.

 

[VAL0R]

Someone should arrange an unofficial tournament between the top drug free girls, if they were interested. Even promote it as the legitimate "drug free" championship match and honor the winner as the real champion, give her a plaque, the works.

 

[TheShadowLord]

Clearly Mack should be required to stop taking steroids in order to compete with drug free girls.

Or don't play at all and have your hopes and dreams of wrestling shattered.

 

[Wunray]

"Beggs had asked to wrestle in the boys’ division, but the rules for Texas public high schools require athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate."

LOL those idiots played themselves. Good for him.

Well damn if that's the case good on him.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Can hate on me all you want, but he shouldn't be allowed to compete at all. He is taking a banned substance for cosmetic reasons and that should not be an acceptable reason.

He should have to compete in the classification of his sex. That is correct. However, he should not be allowed to take a banned substance and be allowed to compete.

Agreed. Neither solution is at all respectful to the other athletes, nor to the sport:

• Competing with females while taking a powerful steroid is entirely unfair;
• Competing with males might seem more sustainable if taken out of context, but there are complexities surrounding that decision, including the unavoidable fact that applying the same rule to the opposite cases (male -> female) is consistently proving unfair; for one of many examples, see: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12002309

So this is a case in which the person's decision to undergo what are medically radical treatments may simply mean that they have put themselves out of the window for fair sports competition in the existing divisions.

And more fundamentally, the introduction of this kind of equation can adversely affect the integrity of sports, although we're obviously on delicate ground here. But sports undeniably derive the consistency of their competition from some underlying notion of human health, which is why taking steroids and other substances to reshape oneself outside of training is existentially disastrous to sports as a whole and rightly forbidden across the board.

Even allowing one to switch sides after a medical process only carries the problem further; in the case of women's sports, it can't be ignored that it only pushes officials into teaching a definition of womanhood that cashes out as deficient manhood, because you inevitably end up creating rules allowing biological men into the women's side after they've shown X% amount of reduction in their male-advantage hormone; so women recognize themselves as the division that lacks testosterone, nothing else. That's even more binary and reductive towards women than the alternative of simply respecting men & women's bodies as holistically different in ways that matter for certain sport competitions.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

Impossible situation, really.
If you let him compete against guys it opens the door to M->F competing against girls.
If you give him T and let him compete against girls it's a huge advantage.

 

[gioGAF]

I'm sorry, but if you are born a male, you should not be able to participate in female sports or vice-versa (unless explicitly allowed, open to anyone). People are free to express their individuality, but that doesn't change the laws of nature.

The situation in that article is terrible. Those female wrestlers are getting ROBBED. I guess I should sign up for that swimming contest in the local retirement home and mop the floor with some octogenarians.

Before the crazies come out, I don't have anything against the transgender boy, I don't believe he is an evil person, I just think that it is unfair to let a male compete against females in a competition that is meant for females or a female compete with females while on basically steriods.

 

[Corrik]

I'm sorry, but if you are born a male, you should not be able to participate in female sports. People are free to express their individuality, but that doesn't change the laws of nature.

The situation in that article is terrible. Those female wrestlers are getting ROBBED. I guess I should sign up for that swimming contest in the local retirement home and mop the floor with some octogenarians.

Before the crazies come out, I don't have anything against the transgender boy, I don't believe he is an evil person, I just think that it is unfair to let a male compete against females in a competition that is meant for females.

He was born female.

 

[gioGAF]

He was born female.

My post wasn't exactly clear, I have clarified. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Amory]

He wanted to compete against boys and Texas said no. That's on Texas.

 

[llien]

Olympic committee ran into issues with hormones with athletes that.. didn't even take them:

“With regard to Hyperandrogenism in female athletes, there were no regulations in place at the Olympic Games Rio 2016 and there will be no regulations in place at the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 as we are still awaiting the resolution of the Dutee Chand case,” the IOC wrote in a June email in response to an inquiry into how it would regulate the upcoming Olympics.

The response follows controversy that sparked after 800-meter South African runner Caster Semenya won gold at the 2016 Summer Olympics in Brazil. Semenya’s intersex condition causes her to produce more testosterone (hyperandrogenism) than most women, prompting questions about whether she had an unfair biological advantage.

Before the Rio Olympics, women like Semenya whose functional levels of the hormone are higher than 10 nmols/L were barred from international competition. Between 2011 and 2015, the IAAF ruled that any woman with less than 10 nanomoles of testosterone per liter of blood could compete in women’s events. Sex testing was not required of any athletes at the Rio Olympics, however, meaning intersex track athletes could compete with their natural testosterone levels.

dailycaller`
.

I have seen girls that destroy boys the same weight.

That's pretty curious, what age are we talking about?

He is taking a banned substance for cosmetic reasons and that should not be an acceptable reason.

Banned, yes, but "cosseting reasons" is dishonest.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

He wanted to compete against boys and Texas said no. That's on Texas.

Letting him compete will taking T is also on Texas, I agree
I'm not faulting the kid who is doing what he's allowed to do

I don't think this is a fair situation for the girls, though

 

[camelCase]

Corrik makes a good point with it affecting the wrestling ambitions of the competing girls, she was taking drugs and that obviously gives an advantage. It's a tough thing to say that you shouldn't be able to compete if you're a transitioning individual , but it plain should not be allowed that drugged athletes are in the same competitions as those playing fairly by the rules.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

"Beggs had asked to wrestle in the boys’ division, but the rules for Texas public high schools require athletes to compete under the gender on their birth certificate."

LOL those idiots played themselves. Good for him.

Fortunately, he has an offer from a college for a spot in their men's wrestling program.

 

[Corrik]

Olympic committee ran into issues with hormones with athletes that.. didn't even take them:

“With regard to Hyperandrogenism in female athletes, there were no regulations in place at the Olympic Games Rio 2016 and there will be no regulations in place at the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 as we are still awaiting the resolution of the Dutee Chand case,” the IOC wrote in a June email in response to an inquiry into how it would regulate the upcoming Olympics.

The response follows controversy that sparked after 800-meter South African runner Caster Semenya won gold at the 2016 Summer Olympics in Brazil. Semenya’s intersex condition causes her to produce more testosterone (hyperandrogenism) than most women, prompting questions about whether she had an unfair biological advantage.

Before the Rio Olympics, women like Semenya whose functional levels of the hormone are higher than 10 nmols/L were barred from international competition. Between 2011 and 2015, the IAAF ruled that any woman with less than 10 nanomoles of testosterone per liter of blood could compete in women’s events. Sex testing was not required of any athletes at the Rio Olympics, however, meaning intersex track athletes could compete with their natural testosterone levels.

dailycaller`
.


That's pretty curious, what age are we talking about?


Banned, yes, but "cosseting reasons" is dishonest.

It is not dishonest, in my opinion.

 

[llien]

It is not dishonest, in my opinion.

You seriously think people go through all the problems of being trans is for cosmetic reasons?

 

[Corrik]

You seriously think people go through all the problems of being trans is for cosmetic reasons?

I believe cosmetic is not medically necessary. No, I do not think it is medically necessary. You are entitled to your opinion as you have it, but choosing to try and undergo treatments to switch your gender is not medically necessary to me.

 

[NickFire]

This is a travesty to common sense. Its not about which gender the person competes in to me. It is about competing at all when you are taking a substance known to give a competitive advantage. Everyone knows very well that taking steroids gives the competitor an unfair advantage over someone building strength naturally. That is why professionals and amateur competitors are tested so stringently. But if you identify as the opposite gender, taking steroids magically becomes allowed? That is stupid political correctness running amok. Simply put, there should be no competitive advantage of any sort when it comes to steroids. If that means someone has to decide whether to wait until they finish competing, then so be it. The contrary is not fair to everyone else who would be banned if they leveled the playing field by taking the same "low dosage."

 

[Razorback]

Legalize all types of drugs in all sports, bionic implants, genetic engineering. whatever. Let's get a cyborg doing the 100m sprint in 4 seconds.

 

[Corrik]

Legalize all types of drugs in all sports, bionic implants, genetic engineering. whatever. Let's get a cyborg doing the 100m sprint in 4 seconds.

It is funny you say that because there was massive arguments on whether pistorious should have been allowed to compete with his leg replacement.

 

[TrainedRage]

That's pretty curious, what age are we talking about?

High school aged.
https://www.twincities.com/2017/03/...wrestlers-is-set-to-take-on-states-best-boys/

This is the Minnesota State High School League.... Note how it just says 'wrestling' not girls and boys wrestling. Also the only difference I found in the rules that mentions 'sex' is for the girls weigh in's; they do in private with a female administrator.

https://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=424

Rules PDF

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/publications/code/athletic/Wrestling.pdf

There may be some exceptions, like girls and boys leagues that are private or 'non school related'. Also I have seen boys who are bigger(weight), drop to something like 120 lbs just to specifically go against girls... Only to be shocked at how strong and well trained they are and get beat handily. Girls KNOW they don't have the advantage of testosterone, often times they work harder than the boys, in my experience. They want to prove themselves, and they do!

 

[DarkArterialGore]

This is a travesty to common sense. Its not about which gender the person competes in to me. It is about competing at all when you are taking a substance known to give a competitive advantage. Everyone knows very well that taking steroids gives the competitor an unfair advantage over someone building strength naturally. That is why professionals and amateur competitors are tested so stringently. But if you identify as the opposite gender, taking steroids magically becomes allowed? That is stupid political correctness running amok. Simply put, there should be no competitive advantage of any sort when it comes to steroids. If that means someone has to decide whether to wait until they finish competing, then so be it. The contrary is not fair to everyone else who would be banned if they leveled the playing field by taking the same "low dosage."

Yeah, I feel bad for the young girl who's now lost the state championships two years in a row to someone gaining an unfair advantage because of testosterone dosing.

 

[Corrik]

High school aged.
https://www.twincities.com/2017/03/...wrestlers-is-set-to-take-on-states-best-boys/

This is the Minnesota State High School League.... Note how it just says 'wrestling' not girls and boys wrestling. Also the only difference I found in the rules that mentions 'sex' is for the girls weigh in's; they do in private with a female administrator.

https://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/activitypage.asp?actnum=424

Rules PDF

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/publications/code/athletic/Wrestling.pdf

There may be some exceptions, like girls and boys leagues that are private or 'non school related'. Also I have seen boys who are bigger(weight), drop to something like 120 lbs just to specifically go against girls... Only to be shocked at how strong and well trained they are and get beat handily. Girls KNOW they don't have the advantage of testosterone, often times they work harder than the boys, in my experience. They want to prove themselves, and they do!

Has a girl ever won a state championship there since it went mixed?

Edit: Mostly only where I have seen mixed wrestling is when the girls side doesn't have enough numbers to be on there own. When I was younger we were mixed. I wrestled two girls in my time. One was pinned in like 14 seconds and the other was pinned after a minute or so because she kept crying over and over when on her back.

I mean, men have way too unfair of an advantage over women. Can a girl beat a boy here and there? Sure. But, not regularly.

 

[TrainedRage]

https://www.gomn.com/sports/sophomo...rl-to-win-at-the-boys-state-wrestling-tourney

Sadly she lost. It was a great match.



Only 2 girls have qualified for the state finals tourney.

 

[Corrik]

https://www.gomn.com/sports/sophomo...rl-to-win-at-the-boys-state-wrestling-tourney

Sadly she lost. It was a great match.



Only 2 girls have qualified for the state finals tourney.

So, yeah, none have even come close to winning the title. That's just losing the 1st round at the state tournament after being runner up in the sectional.

I don't doubt they are mixed because of lack of numbers to have a girls side.

 

[TrainedRage]

So, yeah, none have even come close to winning the title. That's just losing the 1st round at the state tournament after being runner up in the sectional.

I don't doubt they are mixed because of lack of numbers to have a girls side.

Yeah neither of the two girls won the tournament. However even getting to state is a challenge as i'm sure you know. There have only been the two girls that have attempted it. Also MN has a huge number of HS girl wrestlers.

 

[Big4reel]

I don`t understand why the west allows this kind of things but I guess its just cultural differences

 

[Agent_Carnage]

It doesnt seem fair for the other girls as this person is taking what could be an banned substance. We dont like people doping but we are okay with this seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[Osukaa]

Can hate on me all you want, but he shouldn't be allowed to compete at all. He is taking a banned substance for cosmetic reasons and that should not be an acceptable reason.

He should have to compete in the classification of his sex. That is correct. However, he should not be allowed to take a banned substance and be allowed to compete.

If he wishes to take testosterone, that is his choice. However, with that choice comes the consequences the chemicals used to complete that process come with.

We should not be bending the rules to conform with people's choices. You can make your choice and live with the rules in place and accept them.

You ruined how many girls seasons and wrestling ambitions because you allowed someone taking testosterone to compete with them. If it is a banned substance, it should not have been allowed to happen.

I think i'm going to have to agree. I understand that shes making a transition to be a male and for me thats none of my business as along as it makes you happy then go do what you like, but when it gives you an edge over others in a competitive sport then naw man that just doesn't jive right with me. She made the choice to take the substance and as much as it sucks to say it but yeah you shouldn't be able to compete because you have that edge and OP you struck a cord with me by saying this person may have ruined the chances of another female wrestlers ambitions cause I feel that it rings true. Again I am not by all means against what the person is doing for their own personal quality of life but I think they should look at others as well and think about the ramifications they may cause by participating.

 

[Corrik]

Yeah neither of the two girls won the tournament. However even getting to state is a challenge as i'm sure you know. There have only been the two girls that have attempted it. Also MN has a huge number of HS girl wrestlers.

It could be. Depends on the divisions.

I know zero about Minnesota state wrestling.

I went to PA states twice as a kid by beating 1 person each time in the WPIAL regional and losing in the final to go as runner up. Mostly just because my division lacked a lot of people in my weight class.

So, yes, she could have or could have not accomplished a lot by doing so. I will assume she probably did at that level and am not putting down those girls accomplishments at all.

It is an achievement, but is it realistic to think a girl can win a state championship in wrestling against male competition either?

It is possible. But, you are stacking the odds against that girl drastically.

 

[Dunki]

I am all for equal rights for trans people but just like evryone else sometimes in life you have to do compromises and "prof" sport is such a thing IMO. You can not have everything in life and here trans people should realize that they should not be able to do "prof" sport in competitions anymore. I think it is a relative small loss you should take for the sake of others.

 

[LordPezix]

Ummm,... wait,.... I think I see it. Oh steroids. Yeah you know, that thing that usually gets professional athletes banned from sports. Why the fuck are the letting him compete on steroids?

I hope some transgender wins an Olympic gold who takes steroids for cosmetic reasons,... I can see the trans-gate scandal now.