Some chicks get born into unusually powerful bodies that give them an athletic edge against their peers. That's what happened to this chick; and it's far more important for her wellbeing to view her situation this way than to make some cis girls feel like they were cheated out of victory. Plenty of cis girls could have been competing in place of this TG girl, and these kids would have simply had to deal. Treating TG students as some kind of exception that fit in nowhere does a profound disservice to them as human beings.
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Transgender Teen (Male to Female) Wins 3rd Place in Race;Girls' Mothers Mad
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Butterfly Witch
Member
It does change the physiology but nothing that would survive HRT would give a transgender woman a competitive edge over a cisgender woman.
RecRoulette
Member
The easiest one is the Olympic press release
IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
Or if you want to go really deep
Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?
Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students
Just wanted to say thanks for this. Interesting read, cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had.
Seems like this to me too. I would somewhat understand if she had won by a landslide over the other girls, then an argument could be made that she might have had an advantage due to being born a male, but seeing as she did not in fact win by a landslide and in fact came third, something else might be behind this "outrage".
darkistheway
Member
At first, I wasn't sure about all this and felt like there was too many nuances to really have a stance without a lot of research and consideration.
But then I found out her name was Ice. And that sold me. This kid is trying to find her way through life and deserves all sorts of respect. She was born into a world where everyone wants everything to fit into safe little categories, and decided to go to different way.
She's awesome. Let her run.
But then I found out her name was Ice. And that sold me. This kid is trying to find her way through life and deserves all sorts of respect. She was born into a world where everyone wants everything to fit into safe little categories, and decided to go to different way.
She's awesome. Let her run.
Zoe
Member
Height is a competitive edge.
I find it hard to believe when I look at the opposite. Genetic females who take massive doses of testostone do not respond to exercise in the same way that genetic males do on the same steroids. They simply do not get as strong and do not typically respond as well in various other ways. For example, the one-rep max for a genetic male is typically farther from his three rep max than it is for a genetic female, implying a stronger maximum muscle fiber recruitment.
If applied to the opposite situation, why should the situation be a completely level playing field? It isn't level anyways due to within-xx differences, but it could be awkward if HRT becomes more common and it ends up with a skew.
Zoe
Member
Not among her peers at this race apparently.
That was one meet. In the 200 meter over the season she did steam roll for the most part I posted her record in the OP.
Now I say its due to her long legs (not her transitioning) that once her stride picks up, he speed is mostly unmatched (which is why her 200 is better than her 100)
But I also dont dismiss (other than the bigots) those who have legit question as to fairness based on physiological differences.
Also this is one case, but not every possible case.
I questioned (mostly to myself), but from the aspect on compromise/integration (because I believe there should be) what would be the ultimate answer across the board (for HRT, and non-HRT transitioners)
I seen answers for one way or the other, but not a set standard that would satisfy the general (legit) worry. Because like its been stated not everyone transitioning is on hormones that would diminish those "natural body advantages" (Which the IOC guideline would not satisfy)
Also just like I dismiss bigots who absolute dont want to see this girl and others compete, I dismiss those who jumo straight to calling those who question the process (not the individual) transphobics
Butterfly Witch
Member
Are you implying that there are no cisgender tall women or that they should be banned as well so short cisgender women have a leveled playing field?
Okay but you're wrong. Transgender women do not have an advantage over cisgender women. What you are failing to grasp is that transgender women who are on HRT have on average less testosterone than cisgender women. Also, any and all benefits they could have from testosterone are nullified since HRT reverses them.
Quoting for more information although it was literally just quoted above you:
The easiest one is the Olympic press release
IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
Or if you want to go really deep
Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?
Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students
A Link to the Past
Banned
Im not speaking on your reply to the other poster, just that It keeps getting repeated she only got 3rd place (She smokes in the 200)
Also I dont believe she had success due to her transition (I think its her long legs)
http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=9862534#/L0
excelsiorlef
Member
She didn't even win either.
Butterfly Witch
Member
Transgender women on HRT do not have any significant advantage over cisgender women, even the IOC agrees with that.
Also, transgender women are not men.
A Link to the Past
Banned
How great would you estimate your understanding of how much HRT changes in a person is?
I mean, they obviously do expect them to not be discriminated against
Everyone is talking about bone density and height but what about pain? I recall reading some article that say this women have more nerve endings then Men and they experience pain somewhat different then men . I could see that being an advantage in some form of contact sport. Does HRT change the way one feels pain ?
Butterfly Witch
Member
It can but as with everything, these are averages we're talking about so your mileage may vary.
GhostWriter24
Member
This would be brutal. I'm not sure I can envision a sport in which men weighing 100-150lbs heavier could demolish a woman on the field of play. Scary to think about.
JasonUresti
Member
WOuldn't even be that that would be bad.
Serene Williams, one of the greatest female tennis players of all time, would never have been heard of or seen in an integrated men/women's tennis league. She would have never qualified for a major, never won any tournaments or gained any recognition to gain endorsements.
Simply put, Serena Williams probably wouldn't have been good enough to earn a living as a professional tennis player.
partyphone
Banned
or, instead of turning all of sports on its head, we recognize that trans women are women and let them compete in the current system.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Even if she did win my opinion wouldn't change. Someday a trans woman is going to do exceedingly well at a sport and anyone who is to say they don't deserve those wins can fuck right off.
I have long felt that transgender individuals should be able to compete with their proper identified gender as long as they are somewhere along the actual path of transitioning so I see no problem with her competing.
As for why we are hearing this especially out of Alaska seems like another "Christian family" group were probably looking for any issue involving a transgender individual so they could jump on the currently hot and popular topic of bigotry towards trans people and Trans issues that seems to be the religious rights bread and butter right now, and this is the first one that came to their attention.
I would say I feel bad for the young women but from the article that actually quotes her seems like she has a healthy attitude and doesn't need my sympathy.
As for why we are hearing this especially out of Alaska seems like another "Christian family" group were probably looking for any issue involving a transgender individual so they could jump on the currently hot and popular topic of bigotry towards trans people and Trans issues that seems to be the religious rights bread and butter right now, and this is the first one that came to their attention.
I would say I feel bad for the young women but from the article that actually quotes her seems like she has a healthy attitude and doesn't need my sympathy.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I think the point is not that a trans woman cannot win, but rather that people claiming that they have an inherent advantage are saying that in a thread with an example of a person who doesn't have that inherent advantage apparently
In the Olympics they have prevented biologically female women from competing if they have androgen disorders. This is actually a really tough issue because it places restrictions on what a woman's biology is allowed to look like. I think it's best left up to researchers to figure it out, in the meantime this woman doesn't seem to be abnormally fast for a woman so let her compete.
Butterfly Witch
Member
The International Olympic Committee already said that it's okay to let transgender women participate in the women's category as research shows that they have no inherent advantage.
GhostWriter24
Member
Could you link to this report/statement? Would just like to see some acknowledgement from the IOC.
Butterfly Witch
Member
Sure, I'll point out to Platy's post:
The easiest one is the Olympic press release
IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
Or if you want to go really deep
Do Transgender Athletes Have an Unfair Advantage?
Should be noted that the NCAA source is SPECIFICALY about students
GhostWriter24
Member
I see, female to male competition is open without restriction, while male to female competition is regulated by hormone therapy, or testosterone levels being beneath a certain threshold. I'm cool with that, will be really interesting to watch.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Well, if I (a male who regularly does sports) were to compete now, I'm sure I'd place worse than 5th, considerably so. Similarly, you don't get to the top of the world in any sport, just by doping like a lunatic. Her not obliterating the competition does not mean she does not have an unfair advantage.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Isn't it funny how the burden of proof is on us to show that her participation is fair when no one has provided any evidence (beyond fearmongering) that her participation was unfair?
There has to be some regulation (such as requiring HRT) otherwise, we're returning to the days where being born female becomes a liability (in girls sports, no less). It only takes one transgender girl competing (assuming no HRT) to foreclose any girls born female, from winning.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Well, proving this once and for all for one individual is next to impossible by virtue, but consider this: even recklessly doping female individuals don't reach the peak strength levels of male individuals (case in point: weight lifting).It does not seem plausible that hormone therapy completely mitigates all advantages that come with being born with a male body wrt sports performance.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Do you consider yourself someone who is well-learned with respect to HRT?
excelsiorlef
Member
She's been on hormones for at least a year it seems probably a lot more. She's young enough to not have fully grown into a huge advantage, she's been playing other sports at the school without a problem, she wins some, she loses some.
But hey congrats guys for parroting a ton of right wing news sites I guess.
But hey congrats guys for parroting a ton of right wing news sites I guess.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
This depends on what well-learned means. I'm no biologist, so I'm certainly no expert. I know what it is and have an understanding (on a basic level) of its effect though.
Dopping is to make you better but not that much because you cannot mess too much with the hormones.
Hormone therapy is PURE messing with hormones.
Search for ANY case of dopping in women .. they will NOT have a full beard like
or with big muscles as
And those are just 5 minutes googling trans men pictures... I know I can find much better than this, SPECIALY on beard department xD
That is not what happened and is not a genuine representation of the circumstances.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Well, female bodybuilders and weightlifters don't want to have a beard, so they don't have one. Also, they don't want to have a male chest, so they get implants. But they stuff themselves with hormones (not a claim about every single woman competing in these sports, but many). But since you are asking for big muscles for doped women, just google "female bodybuilder". Most of them would have a beard if they wanted to. Obviouisly, homrones have a huge effect on the body, but some of it is also lasting, including bone structure, so I'm quite sure that hormone therapy alone does not take away the competitive advantage of being a biological male completely. I don't doubt that it is mitigating a considerable amount of the advantage.Dopping is to make you better but not that much because you cannot mess too much with the hormones.
Hormone therapy is PURE messing with hormones.
Search for ANY case of dopping in women .. they will NOT have a full beard like
or with big muscles as
And those are just 5 minutes googling trans men pictures... I know I can find much better than this, SPECIALY on beard department xD
...how do you think beards works ?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Can you describe its effects?
Says the person who responded to "citation needed" with "Biology."
EmpressInYellow
Banned
Right? It's funny how suddenly, when it comes to trans issues, everyone magically gains a PhD in biology.
excelsiorlef
Member
She's a fucking teenager whose been on on estrogen for a while, people understand what that means right?
No?
Of course not.
That would involve not concern trolling about wicked trans women oppressing cis gender female athletes.
Btw a many of her schoolmates have come out in support, just mot the ones who ran to right wight "family" transphobic orgs.
She's been playing sports on women's teams at school for a year. Volleyball and what not.
No?
Of course not.
That would involve not concern trolling about wicked trans women oppressing cis gender female athletes.
Btw a many of her schoolmates have come out in support, just mot the ones who ran to right wight "family" transphobic orgs.
She's been playing sports on women's teams at school for a year. Volleyball and what not.
I'd hope the committee that decided to let transitioned people compete in the Olympics would qualify to your standards though.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery
2 years of hormone therapy and managed testosterone levels seem good enough for the Olympics, but admittedly they were not discussing the cutthroat competition that is highschool track and field
I'm pretty indifferent on this topic at the moment because I'm currently trying to educate myself on trans issues but this specific topic is not one that I had considered yet.
I would say though that I think whatever response exists in this scenario would be dwarfed by the response if a Trans woman/girl got into a contact sport like boxing, or wrestling against a cis woman/girl and there was a serious injury. It's an interesting issue overall though and I kind of wish that there was a science group that had the stones to go through a study in which men seriously compete against women compete against trans individuals etc in sport of all kinds in order to see what the real differences look like.
I just don't see a situation where anyone is going to want to put a man/trans women and a woman/trans man in a ring and let them box without holding back, same for most contact sports in general I think but I do think it could be valuable for science and social acceptance since it often seems like there is so much we do not know still.
Sort of off topic but could anyone lead me to a reliable source for some proper education on trans issues in general? I'm trying to learn but It's sometimes difficult to figure out what sources are worth bothering with on these topics due to factual information vs not.
I would say though that I think whatever response exists in this scenario would be dwarfed by the response if a Trans woman/girl got into a contact sport like boxing, or wrestling against a cis woman/girl and there was a serious injury. It's an interesting issue overall though and I kind of wish that there was a science group that had the stones to go through a study in which men seriously compete against women compete against trans individuals etc in sport of all kinds in order to see what the real differences look like.
I just don't see a situation where anyone is going to want to put a man/trans women and a woman/trans man in a ring and let them box without holding back, same for most contact sports in general I think but I do think it could be valuable for science and social acceptance since it often seems like there is so much we do not know still.
Sort of off topic but could anyone lead me to a reliable source for some proper education on trans issues in general? I'm trying to learn but It's sometimes difficult to figure out what sources are worth bothering with on these topics due to factual information vs not.
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