I would have to be convinced that this type of manga promotes pedophilia before I would be comfortable with a ban.
That said, the idea of people getting off on this stuff is upsetting to me.
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U.N. envoy calls on Japan to ban "extreme child manga porn"
- Thread starter ponpo
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That said, the idea of people getting off on this stuff is upsetting to me.
s_mirage
Member
I'd go further than that. I believe that any bans on creative works, however offensive some may find them, can only be justified by definite evidence that they cause harm, or that causing harm is required in order to create them. I find the idea that someone could be jailed for creation or possession of a drawing to be abhorrent.
bishopcruz
Member
I'd actually go further in that you would have to prove it harms more than just the person consuming the work itself.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Notice how anybody in support of this has simply glazed over the great post besada made, and launched straight of the screed of "Thought crime! Doublethink! 1984!"
hobblygobbly
Member
I don't like that it exists either but calling for a ban and banning it because one relates it to child pornography isn't strictly correct. Pedophilia, the sexual thoughts and attractions of minors is not illegal in most countries - that is basically a thought crime. When pedophilia transitions into exploitation of children such as making pornography of them and molestation that's where the illegal issue comes in. What I'd like to see is a study on manga/cartoons/fantasies like this and how it can either influence or make the situation of someone that has these attractions worse. It's advised for people with these feelings/attractions to seek medical help to avoid them hurting children and helping themselves. Since this porn doesn't exploit actual children relating it to straight up child porn doesn't make sense, the better discussion/argument is if this sort of manga porn/fantasy is enticing and influencing this, affecting people with these thoughts already to be more driven in their feelings etc and then it should be banned I think. However we need a study and analysis on such a thing to see if that's the case.
stump sock
Member
It probably should have been the final word in a lot of the defenses being presented, but apparently actual studies showing links to harming real children are less important to some people than paranoid totalitarian fantasies
I didn't and i showed why it doesn't work that way.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Yep. As a wise man once said, this thread went zero to a hundred real fucking quick.
To the people who support this, go read besada's post. It's a good one. Afterwards, do you still support the practice of lolicon, or are you going to continue to perpetuate that it doesn't hurt anybody?
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Honestly It sounds like it actually talking about Manga that depicts Children getting raped so not your typically manga ,don't worry gaf I don't think they are going to take away your K-on.
Do you still support books, games, porn, random action movies, dragonball, horror movies or religion?
Guess what every single one of these and pretty much everything under the sun can be used by an adult to manipulate children into doing crazy stuff this is not a unique feature to some creepy animu drawings.
s_mirage
Member
An undergraduate paper that fails to show a key thing, that the virtual child porn directly caused harm rather than just being used by someone committing a criminal act, does not shut down all debate.
If people are going to argue that it should be banned because paedophiles use it in the grooming process, those same people should also be calling for a ban on adult pornography, as it too is used as an aid to grooming.
darkblade77
Member
It's a weak argument. We don't ban things based on what a few depraved individuals do with them. As abhorrent as this material may be, you'd have a tough time proving that the primary, secondary, teritary, whatever function of it is to groom would-be child victims, or that banning it would impact the practice.
Compare that to firearms in the US, which have a pretty explicit purpose in what they are designed for and have countless incidents of depraved individuals abusing them, and also aren't going anywhere.
shinra-bansho
Member
The extent of the rebuttals seemed to simply be a repeat of poor analogies in the face of actual research, as well as a member's anecdotal story.
Hulk smashing isn't really used as a tool by adults on children to deliberately engender the normalcy of heinous acts to facilitate said criminal acts being performed.
There's a certain irony here in that the types of arguments being made in favor of animated child porn are somewhat parallel the types used by the gun lobby.
stump sock
Member
this continues to be possibly the worst argument in this entire thread and I don't know where you're going with it
When it isn't being batshit, out of its fucking mind, crazy (TENTACLES?!!!) it usually has themes (overt female oppression) that I don't enjoy in my filth.
In saying that....,
Hitomi Tanaka's extraordinary rack
Silver Arrows
Banned
It seems like a gotcha statement along with anything to do with guns being un regulated in the US.
-shadow-
Member
I mean if you really think about banning everything that adults can use to manipulate children into doing crazy stuff you better be ready basically ban EVERYTHING from books to games to movies.
But since you don't get it and i dont really know how to explain it even more i just steal some things maybe then you get it.
The point is that depictions in and of themselves harm no one. It is at most, what is done with them in rare (but not rare enough) instances, that causes the harm. Showing pornography to a child is illegal, and it should be. Child abusers have also often used regular porn to groom victims as well, should THAT be banned?
It's not gonna stop them. Just ignore it
Silver Arrows
Banned
Absolutely, yet chances are they would probably decry the tactics the NRA or similar lobbies do to protect what they want.
Austriacus
Member
For the two situations to be comparable first you need to prove theres a systematic problem of paedophillia in japan.
Silver Arrows
Banned
You can't be fucking serious. So you simply don't believe pedophiles don't live in Japan.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I think that U-18 gravure thing was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Bad question. It's like asking if porn is considered child porn. You may wanna ask for lolicon.
darkblade77
Member
It's not lost on me. Both elements are also tied to protection via constitutional amendment(in the US) and have an industry of non-trivial size supporting their continued existences, even. I don't see the problem with conflating whether we should restrict deadly or obscene elements from our society as they both present similar levels of harm(in that they can damage and end lives).
The reason why people are touting free expression as a rebuttal is that they do not want the government to have (additional) power to decide what is 'obscene' and restrict things based on that 'obcenity'. My understanding is that Japan attempted this once(poorly) and what see now is arguably influenced directly from that. Normally you cede control of your rights in the interest that doing so will serve the public good, and there is reasonable doubt that the government will provide such a solution within the constraints of law.
You better kill off Walt Disney then.
s_mirage
Member
His point might be exaggerated but it's not really invalid. If the main argument for the banning of this material is that it's used by abusers in the process of grooming, shouldn't the same logic also be applied to anything else that is used in that process? In particular, adult pornography, which, given its wide availability, is in all likelihood far more commonly used in persuading children to take part in sex acts.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
No but Hentai could be child porn. A bigger question is what would you consider child porn in the Anime Industry for example is "Black Bullet" child porn I don't believe it is but it came dangerously close to being in my opinion due to the humor it used.
iNvid02
Member
worth it
stump sock
Member
absolutely, 100% on board with you here. I just don't think the solution is to throw one's hands in the air and say it's not worth investigating (not referring to you here).
there's an awful lot of "all or nothing" opinions being shown here and I find that ridiculous. credit to the people several pages back advocating restricting/banning sales but not criminalizing possession or creation. that's at least a measure that would have some social benefit while reducing the cries of "thought crimes."
SixMachine
Member
That also reminded me of a story, but I think it was in Australia *correct me if I'm wrong) that they made some more strict child pornography laws and it got one woman in trouble because she was petite but actually well over the legal age. I know there is a sub section of petite porn actors who act as schoolgirls or whatever fetish, even though they act in an underage mannerism they technically aren't. This kind of stuff would probably more accessible than importing from Japan just because it can be made in the states and does not abide by any censor laws.
Now 1000 year old dragon jokes aside (honestly like any other meme, GAF says the same shit over and over. I don't even have any investment in that kind of fetish or type of stuff and I think it's over played) by what standard would be drawn to judge a fictional character? There are many mangas with women who are full grown but their setting takes place in a school, while there are characters who are intentionally look underage but are not according to the story. Reminds me of Dead or Alive where technically Marie Rose looks like a young girl but is legal but buxom characters like Kasumi and Ayane are under 18. If flat chest was the qualifier, then that might run into the same problem the Australian woman had, a petite body and flat chest is not a 100% indication of age, since many women actually have that body type.
Austriacus
Member
Where did i ever imply that? You are comparing it to the gun issue. Every country haa guns but the usa has a problem with it.Every country has child molestation to some extent but does japan have an abnormally high amount of cases of child molestation?
You can't be fucking serious. So you simply don't believe pedophiles don't live in Japan.
So it's starting to look like the "it's not hurting anybody" argument might be bullshit. What research we've seen isn't entirely conclusive but it's there. A few years ago CNN actually did a story on this and interviewed the creator of Love Hina, who believes the manga industry would definitely be in support of some kind of regulation with enough conclusive data. Again, I would prefer some kind of line be drawn if only to put an end to or mitigate the massive grey area that currently exists.
I still think it leaves potential for abuse and overreach of censorship. The question of what defines a minor in a virtual setting would still need to be answered. How could you tell whether a drawn character was 16 or 18 years old?
I still think it leaves potential for abuse and overreach of censorship. The question of what defines a minor in a virtual setting would still need to be answered. How could you tell whether a drawn character was 16 or 18 years old?
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I don't think this has to do with 16-18 year olds; this have to do with children around 10 year olds and so on which is why I mentioned "Black Bullet" anime as one of the protagonist is 10 years old (Maybe 11 I don't remember exactly) but they make multiple references to Pedophilia though for comedy but still could be argued as quite bad.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
"Bullshit" is a bit strong but yeah, it definitely looks like "it doesn't harm anyone" isn't a rocksolid argument anymore and the therapeutic argument ("better pictures than real kids") might actually be flat out wrong
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I would consider it relevant given the general threads that happens here over any game that is deemed too anime. Which right now is a major problem here, and would be a problem left to those uninitiated in the whole thing.
stump sock
Member
I'd be pretty surprised if any legislation was passed that dropped the axe on stuff that portrayed "teenagers" that look like adults. if it was strictly about age as a number, you'd have mangaka changing the number 11 to 19 and leaving characters still looking like children.
hence why people have been specifically pointing at lolicon.
e: vv that strawman isn't even worth acknowledging but thanks for playing
hence why people have been specifically pointing at lolicon.
e: vv that strawman isn't even worth acknowledging but thanks for playing
Doctor Doom
Banned
Say adult young looking women with small breasts should we criminalize their sexting or even monetizing of their OWN Adult bodies because it might indirectly harm minors? Doesnt that sound ridiculous? Let alone drawings.
Those of you for criminalizing you do know that this will likely result in jail time and likely rape of people for the mere possession of drawings? So in order to protect some from indirect harm youre willing to advocate for the actual direct and severe harm of innocents?
radios shipping overview
Member
You're right, and it's chilling to see that sort of thing becoming normalized, above and beyond the already repugnant (sexist, racist, violent) norms that your average studio porno conveys.
I don't think the therapeutic argument ever had any real merit, but as it's been pointed out, the grooming argument could absolutely be extrapolated to other types of non-banned media on top of all the other huge implementation and free speech issues. Case in point
Silver Arrows
Banned
Makes me wonder then where hentai that depicts characters from the Persona series (Specifically 3 and definitely 4) falls then. Even if it does make them look like adults, they are canonically underage.
Drawings aren't children. If you want to act like they are, then making them an adult is just jacking off to adults being raped/murdered. Snuff films are illegal so should drawings of rape and murder be illegal too?
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