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[Mailbox]

I think the thing we haven't really gotten I into is the difference and line in "showing rape" vs "depicting rape".

Since rape porn is a depiction, where does drawn media fall?

Are characters raping each other off limits? Must the character themselves pretend?
And after those being answered, where would child depictions fall under this?

I'm only asking so that we don't stay off topic and actually get some less vague opinions on this.

You are fucking around with semantics. If you can't make the leap from non-consensual sex to violence, I am both sad and scared for you.

Semantics matter When concerning the idea of what is right, and what is wrong, what should be banned, what is fair game in media.

If you can't explain your points beyond reactionary rhetoric, I recommend that you take a little break and compile your ideas and post a more concise explanation and viewpoint.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

You
Out can edit your posts for additional responses, throwing that out here.

And this has gone quite off topic.

 

[Cameron122]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

Save me Jesus

 

[Seductivpancakes]

I think the thing we haven't really gotten I into is the difference and line in "showing rape" vs "depicting rape".

Since rape porn is a depiction, where does drawn media fall?

Are characters raping each other off limits? Must the character themselves present?
And after those being answered, where would child depictions fall under this?

I'm only asking so that we don't stay off topic and actually get some less vague opinions on this.

They need to clarify what extreme means before they start proposing laws.

 

[collige]

You are fucking around with semantics. If you can't make the leap from non-consensual sex to violence, I am both sad and scared for you.

Let's be more specific here. What exact types of material were you proposing to ban when you posted this?

Of course. Rape is not sex, but violence.

And again Doctor Doom: What the HELL are you smoking?

 

[void666]

On one hand i think some of these mangas are disgusting. From time to time i see something being posted on 4chan. Sick stuff really.
But on the other hand, it's not real. There are no real people being harmed.

 

[capitalCORN]

When you align with rape porn, you know that's endgame.

 

[Mailbox]

They need to clarify what extreme means before they start proposing laws.

My point exactly.

 

[stump sock]

My point exactly.

I mean... even I agree with that, that's just common sense

 

[Mailbox]

I mean... even I agree with that, that's just common sense

Being vague about laws, no matter the law, is just asking for problems.

 

[capitalCORN]

I mean... even I agree with that, that's just common sense

I mean, maybe fingering should be okay. I don't know.... :s

 

[Cyber Caesar]

Age of consent in Japan is 13. Close thread...

 

[Mailbox]

Legit question:

Would a porn manga about adult using VR to have sex and one of said adult's avatar having a childish/ child body be considered under this?

I'm not joking with this question. It's grey area stuff like this that should be considered before laws or bans like this are even thought up.

 

[stump sock]

Age of consent in Japan is 13. Close thread...

now admittedly my sarcasm detector is broken after these last few days, but just in case

people like to point out the national age of consent being 13, but that's overridden on a prefectural level, and those vary between 16 and 18.

 

[Nightbird]

Legit question:

Would a porn manga about adult using VR to have sex and one of said adult's avatar having a childish/ child body be considered under this?

I'm not joking with this question. It's grey area stuff like this that should be considered before laws or bans like this are even thought up.

That's one interesting case actually.
II would still ban it because that manga still contains explicit depictions of sexual intercourse with children. Even if the characters are actually adults.


Basically the case of the 1000 year old Dragon in a kids body

 

[Ri'Orius]

But its not rape. People are allowed to have fetishes, its not your bussines why somebody is getting off from something. Rape porn is just two consenting adults pretending something.

Right, and cartoon porn is just pretend, too. But if, as a lot of people are arguing, it's okay to ban cartoon CP because it's gross, only sick fucks get off on it, it could normalize bad behavior, or consuming it could lead people to commit actual rape, how does the same logic not apply to rape porn?

 

[Cyber Caesar]

now admittedly my sarcasm detector is broken after these last few days, but just in case

We need to get our priorities in order is what I was implying. 13 is way too young to give consent. Why didn't the UN bring this to the world's attention?

 

[Azuran]

If this happens, hentai history will need some Before Loli Ban (BLF) and After Loli Ban (ALB). dates. So many sites will never be the same after this major event in human history.

 

[stump sock]

We need to get our priorities in order is what I was implying. 13 is way too young to give consent. Why didn't the UN bring this to the world's attention?

there is literally no place in Japan where the age of consent is 13. that's just an old law that hasn't been updated while newer laws with more reasonable ages override it in all situations.

it wasn't brought up because it's completely irrelevant.

 

[Austriacus]

Right, and cartoon porn is just pretend, too. But if, as a lot of people are arguing, it's okay to ban cartoon CP because it's gross, only sick fucks get off on it, it could normalize bad behavior, or consuming it could lead people to commit actual rape, how does the same logic not apply to rape porn?

It does apply. And thats the issue with it. If you use that reasoning you can end up banning every form of porn because you can make a case that all forms of it are detrimental to society and only for sick fucks.

 

[deathkiller]

UK and Canada already have laws that put hentai with underage characters at the same level as child pornography. That means that any hentai with high school girls will land you in jail (and that is a huge percentage of the hentai manga/anime).

 

[Spider from Mars]

As a member of the GAF envoy, I call for the ban of all animu.
#banime
#hentayylmao
#eastisleast

 

[Mailbox]

UK and Canada already have laws that put hentai with underage characters at the same level as child pornography. That means that any hentai with high school girls will land you in jail (and that is a huge percentage of the hentai manga/anime).

Wait...
(Checks Canadian laws)
Huh... Porn depicting "obesities" (violence, horror, criminal, exploitive, etc) is illegal...


Welp....
Huh. Didn't know that. Welp.

 

[besada]

Wait...
(Checks Canadian laws)
Huh... Porn depicting "obesities" (violence, horror, criminal, exploitive, etc) is illegal...


Welp....
Huh. Didn't know that. Welp.

Yup.

Currently, countries that have made it illegal to possess (as well as create and distribute) sexual images of fictional characters who are described as or appear to be under eighteen years old include Canada, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the Philippines.

In the U.S. things are much more complicated, because you have a network of state and local laws that don't match, as well as considerable gray areas at the federal level. So, in some states, it's explicitly against the law to possess drawn images of sexualized children. In others it isn't. If you take it to the federal level, then you're looking at passing the Miller Test for obscenity, and the federal courts aren't entirely decided regarding what level of realism is needed in the depictions before it's declared obscene. By the nature of American obscenity laws, each instance gets decided on its own, rather than a blanket set of rules.

2008 Iowa case

In October 2008, a 38-year-old Iowa comic collector named Christopher Handley was prosecuted for possession of explicit lolicon manga. The judge ruled that two parts of the PROTECT Act criminalizing "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting" were unconstitutional, but Handley still faced an obscenity charge. Handley was convicted in May 2009 as the result of entering a guilty plea bargain at the recommendation of his lawyer, under the belief that the jury chosen to judge him would not acquit him of the obscenity charges if they were shown the images of question.

So, in the U.S. you might avoid child pornography charges, only to catch an obscenity charge. Or you'll get scared into a plea deal, like most of the people arrested for child pornography do.

2012 Missouri case

In October 2012, after being reported August 2011 by his wife, a 36-year-old man named Christian Bee in Monett, Missouri entered a plea bargain to "possession of cartoons depicting child pornography", with the US attorney's office for the Western District of Missouri recommending a 3-year prison sentence without parole. The office in conjunction with the Southwest Missouri Cyber Crimes Task Force argued that the "Incest Comics" on Bee's computer "clearly lack any literary, artistic, political or scientific value".

 

[televator]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

ROFL

 

[Two Words]

I'm making a comment about harmful deviant sexualities. What makes you believe that pedophilia is a born identity?

I just said I don't know if it is and that it should be researched.

 

[rpmurphy]

Wait...
(Checks Canadian laws)
Huh... Porn depicting "obesities" (violence, horror, criminal, exploitive, etc) is illegal...


Welp....
Huh. Didn't know that. Welp.

Not sure if completely accurate, but I heard from someone who works in porn sales that Canada bans pornography that depicts or represents non-consexual sex, which includes fetishes like S&M and bondage.

 

[KazenY2J]

Not sure if completely accurate, but I heard from someone who works in porn sales that Canada bans pornography that depicts or represents non-consexual sex, which includes fetishes like S&M and bondage.

Really?
Those can be consensual though.

 

[Damerman]

I try to act indifferent about the whole animee thing, but the sense of revulsion i get from the loli bullshit and the waifu nonsense is pretty significant. I hope the UN gets its way. every culture has it's really bad vices...like really really bad vices... i would hope all cultures reflect on their own as they ask japan to get rid of this nonsense.

 

[Ogodei]

This would have no legal basis whatsoever. First, thought crime isn't something envisioned in modern legal systems. Pedophilia isn't accepted because childs can't consent and consequentially they can't have sex or anything (with exceptions of both minors and whatever). There is no consent dilemma in cartoons. Banning it would be more alike at banning omosexuality, where adults do things in full consent and it's still banned because it goes against "morality". The gateway argument make no sense either; it made no sense for drugs, it made no sense for games that promote killings, and it make no sense here.

Second, you have no ways to define a child in stylized drawings. What define a child? Being short? I just give it long ears and call it an halfling. Pubes? Plenty of adults shave. Small tits? Plenty of women have no tits. Even if such a ban went in effect, the only thing that would change is that everything would be considered done by adults cosplaying. Sorta like "this work is fiction" and whatever.

There's way more ground to ban actual children models. That has proven disastrously effects on a lot of children's psiche, and i don't think a parent giving consent is a strong enough rebuttal, since we ban most dangerous things from childrens no matter the opinion of the parent. There's a reason that kind of thing is not done anywhere else in the world but japan afaik.

Bingo. Two problematic standards are "who is this material harming through its existence" and "how would you define this material."

This is why the US Supreme Court had to grudgingly legalize this stuff (i can only imagine what was going through the heads of the judges who voted that way) in Ashcroft v Free Speech Coalition. As long as no children were harmed in its production, it passes the standard, though it can still be regulated as obscenity per the Miller standard, since it's still obviously porn.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Regardless if you think some art is sick or not, but who defines what is acceptable and what isnt? Some authorithy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art

 

[RedSwirl]

Yup.

Kind of odd because that would make a lot of anime-related websites (4chan, Danbooru, etc.) pretty much illegal in those countries.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Is this the end of third party Vita support?

....i dont think i want to understand ...

 

[besada]

Kind of odd because that would make a lot of anime-related websites (4chan, Danbooru, etc.) pretty much illegal in those countries.

Given some of the content that regularly turns up on those sites, I imagine there are a lot of local laws being broken. No one on the planet has any solution to that. In some places, like S. Korea, where laws against this sort of thing already exist, the government has task forces that actively seek out uploaders and downloaders of criminal pornography on these sites, but most municipalities don't have the manpower to proactively prosecute the child pornography trade, and rely on people who get reported for most of their arrests.

 

[Kingpin Rogers]

My friends over at fakku aren't gonna be pleased.

 

[Atreides]

It is. The extent to which it is, is still in dispute, with the Mayo Clinic suggesting somewhere between 30%-80%. Part of the issue with researching pedophilia/child molestation is that the majority of subjects we have to question are/or have been in the criminal system. So selection bias is inevitable in the studies.

Here's an interesting paper, that has links to a fair amount of the research, concerning the same issue when it was dealt with in the U.S., while Ashcroft was running Justice:
http://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=student_scholarship

Basically, the arguments come down to 1) child pornography doesn't inhibit and may exacerbate a pedophile's need to molest and 2) child pornography(drawn and real) is used by pedophiles to draw in children for predation.

You may not agree with those, of course, but there is some available science to suggest the first, and the second is undeniable, as we have multiple records of child molestors using child pornography to attract children.

Bans like these are tricky, because you get over eager enforcement causing problems, and creatives who want to push the envelope, so court cases tend to come hot and heavy for a few years, before they settle down and people accept the new standard. It's not like Japan doesn't have a history of this, and dealing with evolving standards of obscenity. They already have laws about mosaics and what you can and can't show legally. This would be an extension of those existing laws.

The paper you quoted talks about virtual child pornography, meaning drawings or videos that are made on purpose to be indistinguishable of real child pornography. It clearly doesn't apply to cartoonish pornography.

 

[stupei]

Right, and cartoon porn is just pretend, too. But if, as a lot of people are arguing, it's okay to ban cartoon CP because it's gross, only sick fucks get off on it, it could normalize bad behavior, or consuming it could lead people to commit actual rape, how does the same logic not apply to rape porn?

Because a consenting real world adult can agree to act our your rape fetish with you but a real world child can never agree to act out your child molestation fetish with you. According to the studies, there is no healthy outlet for people with an actual attraction to children and engaging in these fantasies might make them worse. This is not explicitly true for people with rape fantasies, as adults can consent to sexual fantasy and children cannot (for obvious reasons).

 

[Ogodei]

The paper you quoted talks about virtual child pornography, meaning drawings or videos that are made on purpose to be indistinguishable of real child porhography. It clearly doesn't apply to cartoonish pornography.

I'm pretty sure that's what post "Free Speech Coalition v Ashcroft" laws only apply to, as well. Though as stated previously in the thread, you're fucked as soon as a prosecutor picks up the case, but it's like other low-priority laws.

Could spite someone you hate if you know they like that stuff, otherwise it's not going to get prosecuted.

Because a consenting real world adult can agree to act our your rape fetish with you but a real world child can never agree to act out your child molestation fetish with you. According to the studies, there is no healthy outlet for people with an actual attraction to children and engaging in these fantasies might make them worse. This is not explicitly true for people with rape fantasies, as adults can consent to sexual fantasy and children cannot (for obvious reasons).

I find this argument specious, since serial rapists aren't out for sex per se, the lack of consent is what they're after (now, a lot of people who commit rape are just out for the sex, but pathological rape is probably more psychologically similar to other forms of predatory sex, like pedophiles, compared to someone who just didn't take no for an answer that one time). The crime is the same, as is the damage to the victim, but the motive is pointedly different

 

[Brakke]

Regardless if you think some art is sick or not, but who defines what is acceptable and what isnt? Some authorithy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art

This kind of slippery slope thing is boring. Appealing to Nazis smh. The UN frowning at porn depicting children and rape and abuse is real, real far from Nazis stomping on faces and murdering people. The one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

 

[Shouta]

I try to act indifferent about the whole animee thing, but the sense of revulsion i get from the loli bullshit and the waifu nonsense is pretty significant. I hope the UN gets its way. every culture has it's really bad vices...like really really bad vices... i would hope all cultures reflect on their own as they ask japan to get rid of this nonsense.

It should be noted that the whole waifu thing is pretty separate from the content that's being targeted by this call and other activities. A lot of this gets jumbled into the "Oh, Japan. -_-" category but distinctions and domains that exist in regards to anime, manga, and games.

While I'm not the US Envoy, I assume that the content being talked about by them isn't really the gray area stuff like folks have brought up in here say Ranma 1/2 or stuff along those lines. It's the manga that's very clearly portraying children involved in sex (12-13 or younger) that's being referenced. That stuff is being made and being sold there. There's really no defending that stuff, it's really gross. Not as gross as their pre-teen and younger idol industry but still gross.

However, without clearly defining the guidelines of what needs to be banned, going along with a call like this is very scary because it could have horrible ramifications. That's what scares artists and the manga industry. How much damage it could do to a very big part of Japan if they let lawmakers do stuff willy-nilly.

 

[yyyugen]

good get that loli shit outta here. Im tired of sifting through it on ex

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

good get that loli shit outta here. Im tired of sifting through it on ex

Is this a short hand nickname for the sad panda?

 

[s_mirage]

Ignore this post. It wasn't really relevant to the topic.

 

[Joyful]

Wait...
(Checks Canadian laws)
Huh... Porn depicting "obesities" (violence, horror, criminal, exploitive, etc) is illegal...


Welp....
Huh. Didn't know that. Welp.

canada is the country that gave up free speech because it might hurt someones feelings

 

[ScHlAuChi]

This kind of slippery slope thing is boring. Appealing to Nazis smh. The UN frowning at porn depicting children and rape and abuse is real, real far from Nazis stomping on faces and murdering people. The one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

The Nazis DIDNT murder the artists, they banned their art becasue they didnt like said art! It does not matter how sick or "degenerated" the art is. Its drawings, fantasy, not real!
And no im not defending the people who create or "enjoy" such art, they certainly have problems, but if you want to ban those, why dont we also ban drawings that depict the prophet Mohammad in a bad light?
Lots of people have died becasue others didnt like said drawings - it has lead to dangerous consequences in the real world. If we banned those we could prevent this from happening!

But if we did that, where is the limit?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions....

 

[yyyugen]

If you're sick of it, and if you're referring to what I think you're referring, why are you going to the version of the site specifically intended not to be censored, when there's one where it's all removed?

idk I guess I never really bothered. Ive been using it for so long I guess i forgot an uncensored version existed. Thank you for reminding me

 

[s_mirage]

idk I guess I never really bothered. Ive been using it for so long I guess i forgot an uncensored version existed. Thank you for reminding me

No problem. I deleted my original post as it wasn't really relevant to the discussion, and I realised that I visit ex too because I don't always agree with the tags things are given on e (and content is automatically removed based on its tags). You've got your reason, I've got mine, and I don't want to be a hypocrite.

 

[Silver Arrows]

canada is the country that gave up free speech because it might hurt someones feelings

Oh get lost with that noise.

 

[Joyful]

Oh fuck off with that noise.

careful with your posts you might go to jail/be fined

 

[Silver Arrows]

careful with your posts you might go to jail

Ironic considering which one of us got banned for posting in this thread last time.


EDIT: To reiterate, I'm glad that Canada doesn't give a place for neo-Nazi's and racists to speak.