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[Messofanego]

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt demanded junior doctors to work on the weekends with a new seven day contract, cut "antisocial hours" overtime pay, with no extra money or staff. The dude is hated across the board in the medical profession. There already has been a social media campaign back in July (#ImInWorkJeremy) where he was lambasted for his views about doctors not working on weekends. If you've had your head under a rock, junior doctors have been protesting about this (I was there at the big strikes near Downing Street a few weeks back), because they're already under monumental stress with the amount of hours they do (70-100 hours which is inhumane). If you don't know already, junior doctors under such amount of hours have the equivalent performance of a drunk person. There was an eye-opening documentary about this called "The Truth About Junior Doctors" hosted by the most famous UK doctor celebrity, Dr Christian Jessen where it showed the effect of these hours and how juniors are scared to speak up about this in fear of losing their job. All that pent up anger has led to these recent events.

Junior doctors row: 98% vote in favour of strikes

Negotiations have failed between BMA (British Medical Association) and the gov't as Jeremy Hunt has declined to make talks [BBC video interview with him] ("Call off the strike, come and talk to the gov't about how we can work together"; "the tragedy here is patient safety is being put on risk") and has been vague about how pay will increase despite budget cuts or why financial penalties are going away for hospital trusts that make doctors work ridiculous hours.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/19/jeremy-hunt-junior-doctors-nhs

Prof Sir Simon Wessely, the president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, said that in 35 years as a doctor he had never seen such anger, frustration and disillusionment among the younger members of the profession as he had in recent weeks. What was at stake, he stressed, was the possibility that an already under-doctored NHS could “lose the current generation of junior doctors” to other countries, other jobs or life as an expensive-to-employ locum medic. Hunt has privately told some doctors’ leaders recently that he expects to tough out a series of strikes and to then impose the hated contract.

After almost unanimous approval for strikes and with hospitals now working out how to handle them, it looks improbable that David Cameron will be able to avoid getting involved in the standoff between the doctors in scrubs and the minister they no longer trust, perhaps by calling in a third party as an intermediary, as some are suggesting today.​

When the strikes happen, the general public will probably be worried of whether they'll get care on those three strikeout days. Maybe the news media might fuel the fearmongering. Well, consultants will be doing more of the ground work now and there's no need to worry.

What I Will Tell My Patients When Junior Doctors Strike - Dr Zoe Norris

This Thursday, the result of a ballot by the British Medical Association of its junior doctor members will have closed, and the result will be out. There will be a strike. Unless talks restart, there will initially be three days of strike action. The BMA released the dates of these well in advance: 1, 8 and 16 December. What happens after that will depend on how united the juniors are in the face of massive negative media campaigning, and whether Mr Hunt really thinks he can produce his longed for routine care at weekend, with no extra money or staff. There have been numerous articles written about the strike - I'm not going into all the details here. Suffice to say, as a doctor, my concern is for my patients. And their concern is what happens to them in this strike.

It's 1 December. You have come to see me in my surgery with abdominal pain. We chat, I examine you, and confirm your own thoughts - this could be appendicitis. You need admitting to hospital.

"But Doctor, there's a strike - is it safe?"

Hand on heart, I can say yes. I would never admit you to an unsafe hospital. The first strike reduces the number of junior doctors to emergency cover only. There will still be a team of junior staff ready to deal with emergency admissions; ready to assess you, to prescribe your medication, to get you ready for surgery. I admit you knowing you will get the care you need.

It's 8 December. You're eight months pregnant. You come to see me in my surgery with headaches. I take your blood pressure, test your urine, and confirm your own thoughts - this could be serious. I am worried about you and your baby. You need admitting to hospital.

"But Doctor, there's a strike - is it safe?"

This time, there are no junior doctors. This strike is a full walk out. But hand on heart, I can say yes. I would never admit you and your unborn baby to an unsafe hospital. You and your baby are absolutely safe. Usually, you would see two or three junior doctors in a row when you arrive on the labour ward, as well as midwives. They would take all your details, examine you, arrange scans and tests. Then they would find the Consultant in charge and tell them all about you. What they think is wrong, what needs to happen, what the plan is to keep you and your baby safe. The Consultant would have the final say, and often the junior doctors would be the ones carrying out your care. With no junior doctors, all those early stages are skipped. When you arrive at the hospital, the midwives will greet you, but the first doctor you see will be the Consultant. He or she will do all the things the junior doctors usually do, they will make the same decision, but the Consultant will be the one to carry out your care. Consultants will be on all the wards, in A&E, seeing patients, admitting them, arranging tests, making decisions. Hospitals will be safe.​

"Any headlines and any politician that says patients will not be safe during a strike is wrong."

Up and down the country, hospitals are planning for these strikes, some albeit more reluctantly than others. The BMA gave them warnings precisely for cases like these and to keep patients safe. In a typical large hospital in the south of England, there are 920 junior doctors. There are 630 Consultants. During the strike, the hospital should cancel all Consultant work that isn't an emergency. No clinic appointments. No routine surgery. No meetings. Every single Consultant will be on hand to see and treat emergencies like these three patients. They will be in all departments, round the clock. This cover is being provided willingly and with full support for their junior colleagues in many hospitals. It is also part of Consultants contracts that they provide safe cover in exceptional circumstances like these. Any headlines and any politician that says patients will not be safe during a strike is wrong. There will be disruption and annoyances - that is the whole point of a strike. But there will be the most experienced doctors providing hands on care for the patients that need it.

You could argue, "Well, surely this system is better! We cut out the middle men, the junior doctors causing all the problems. Why aren't we just seen by Consultants straight away all the time?"

Great idea. But they aren't an endless resource. You need to train new Consultants. Guess who the Consultants of tomorrow are? That's right - the junior doctors. They are striking because they have no choice. They are striking because short term inconvenience to Jeremy Hunt, is worth long term safety for patients. Any and every patient who needs to be seen during these strikes, will be. They will have the care they need. The scary headlines will come. The rhetoric will increase. But despite all this, patients will be safe. They are the priority of every single doctor. So hand on heart, I won't be worrying about admitting my patients during these strikes. I will tell them I support the junior doctors because we need them for the NHS to survive.

But if the juniors don't follow through, and cave to the dangerous demands of Mr Hunt, I will worry. When they are working this proposed new contract, with 90 hour weeks with no rest, no limits, and are exhausted - that is when I will tell my patients not to go to hospital. Because then it really won't be safe.​

 

[TedMilk]

Jeremy Cunt's disregard is terrifying.

 

[Valhelm]

Whoa, that's amazing. Good for them for taking this initiative.

 

[Walshicus]

It's almost as if people forget how bad things get under Tory government.

 

[TedMilk]

I hope with all my heart that the general public aren't stupid enough to side with the government when the inevitable media whitewash happens.

 

[Zaph]

These awful contracts, combined with the way medicine degree courses are funded, and the international demand for western educated doctors, is going to cause an absolute clusterfuck for the NHS.

Good job Hunt, mission accomplished.

 

[MLH]

They have my support!

 

[Walshicus]

Good job Hunt, mission accomplished.

You joke, but for him it probably is.

The government doesn't want to save the NHS. They don't give a shit about the health of the people using it. They want to privatise as much of it as possible to siphon money off to themselves and their toffy mates, and then drive as many people away from it to private health as it collapses in order to put cash in the pockets of... themselves and their toffy mates.

But again, how could people not know this when they voted in a Tory government?

 

[CyclopsRock]

I hope with all my heart that the general public aren't stupid enough to side with the government when the inevitable media whitewash happens.

What difference does it make? We're four and Half years away from an election; this is going to be a good old fashioned, Tory vs Union bun fight unless Hunt goes all "Gove at Justice" and becomes mysteriously conciliatory.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Are junior doctors like residents in America? We are beating you guys in something? Be still, beating heart.

 

[pulsemyne]

They have my support as well. Junior Doctors have always been a bit shat on but Cunt is taking it to another level. What a prick of a man.

 

[Jackpot]

Totally entitled to. Told that working 7pm on a Saturday should only count for regular pay. Sent a bullshit complex contract that no one can make sense of whilst the ministers go on the news making vague, misleading comments.

Quickest way to end this would be to force MPs to work the same hours.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

This makes me so angry. Fuck Cunt and the Conservatives.

They have my support, but I want to show that more than just a post on GAF. Is there ant campaigns or petitions I can sign up to?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Still seems like a great idea giving the job of health secretary to a guy who believes in homeopathic quackery.

 

[jelly]

You joke, but for him it probably is.

The government doesn't want to save the NHS. They don't give a shit about the health of the people using it. They want to privatise as much of it as possible to siphon money off to themselves and their toffy mates, and then drive as many people away from it to private health as it collapses in order to put cash in the pockets of... themselves and their toffy mates.

But again, how could people not know this when they voted in a Tory government?

Yep. Conservatives want to break the NHS and I would say labour have been doing it too. They are trying all these cost saving schemes but ultimately the reason it doesn't work too well is that it's understaffed with layers of bureaucracy but sorting that doesn't lead to privatisation. The end game from the conservatives is disgusting and I can't believe people didn't expect the Tories to be complete scum. I'm just waiting for the papers to vilify the hard working people again and the masses sucking it up.

 

[SuperBowser]

Jeremy Hunt has only spread misinformation and half truths. He's created such animosity that an entire profession feel there is no option but to strike. I never dreamt I would go on strike when I joined medical school or when I first started working or even last year. But I have no choice - that is the sad state of the current situation.


It ultimately comes down to this: Hunt wants to increase medical cover from 7 day emergency services + 5 day elective services to 7 day emergency and elective services with increased standard hours on every single day. He does not plan to provide more staff or money to achieve this goal. It doesn't take a genius to work out this is impossible. The only way to achieve this is making staff work more hours, more unsocial hours and to take a massive pay cut. There is also no acknowledgement of the clear impact this would have on standard weekday services. The NHS is already understaffed (we have one of the lowest doctoropulation ratios in EU).


Simultaneously, Hunt consistently misuses controversial data about weekend deaths to talk about elective services (e.g. why will a cataract surgery on Saturday evening somehow improve patient deaths?).
He is also proposing insidious changes such as permanently financially penalising doctors that do research or take maternity/paternity leave.

Are junior doctors like residents in America? We are beating you guys in something? Be still, beating heart.

Junior doctor means any doctor that is not a consultant. These contract changes affect the vast majority of doctors working in the NHS.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

In the middle of Flu season. Yikes.
I agree they should be getting better pay, but the newspapers are gonna search out any old or vulnerable people that die during those days and drag these guys over hot coals.
I hope they are prepared for the backlash.


Outrage culture is a thing whether you like it or not and this is putting them in the firing line big time.

 

[Lamel]

Good for them.


for USA people, I don't think junior doctors are necessarily equivalent to residents.

 

[Mr-Joker]

I am in support of the strike since my older brother is a junior doctor and he wasn't happy being told what to do by Jeremy Hunt, who is so out of touch and has no idea how the level of work that doctors does.

This makes me so angry. Fuck Cunt and the Conservatives.

Agreed, fuck the Conservatives.

 

[Dopus]

Good for them.


for USA people, I don't think junior doctors are necessarily equivalent to residents.

You're correct. Junior doctor is misleading as it includes anyone who isn't a GP or Consultant. Specialty registrars are Junior doctors too.

 

[Messofanego]

In the middle of Flu season. Yikes.
I agree they should be getting better pay, but the newspapers are gonna search out any old or vulnerable people that die during those days and drag these guys over hot coals.
I hope they are prepared for the backlash.


Outrage culture is a thing whether you like it or not and this is putting them in the firing line big time.

Death panel mentions in the media incoming.

 

[DragonSworne]

UK gov't really pushing for privatized healthcare.

 

[dalin80]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

 

[Kuros]

It's almost as if people forget how bad things get under Tory government.

Helps when there is literally no functioning opposition in the UK atm.

 

[Messofanego]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

"Slightly shitty" is quite the understatement. Great pay ain't going to fix the stress and performance levels. If nurses are doing the same hours, you'd think they would be in support of this rather than acting like American "bootstrap" workaholics who should suck it up.

 

[Maledict]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

We actually spend less of our overall GPD % on healthcare than most countries. The NHS is *that* efficient compared to other places. The lie that it is an endless drain on resources just doesn't bear out. We can, and should, put more money into the NHS.

The UK spends 9.1% of GPD on healthcare. For comparison, the USA spends 17.1%, France spends 11.7%, Germany 11.3%, Japan 10.3% and Australia 9.4%.

And sorry, but to describe the hours Junior Doctors work as "slightly shitty hours" is insane, and I don't know anyone in the NHS who would say otherwise. My entire family bar me works for the NHS, my mother has been a theatre sister for the last 30 years, and everyone knows how fucking insane these proposals are and how they need to not happen.

 

[neogaffer1]

Are junior doctors like residents in America? We are beating you guys in something? Be still, beating heart.

no, our residents are treated as bad as the junior doctors woud've been if those contracts went through.

that's how fucked up healthcare is in america.

 

[Dopus]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

Well then you friends are clueless as to the actual situation. Disappointing really.

Doctors work unpaid extra hours all the time, what this new contract will allow is the removal of the safeguards that will no doubt increase the hours they must work by contract. The 'limit' would be 72 hours per week but the removal of the safeguards means that hospitals will no longer monitor hours worked - this is an issue because doctors often work longer hours they are contracted to do so. Tired doctors = patient safety is at risk. There is a reason why Wales and Scotland have rejected this contract. It's not about the money - which by the way is significantly lower for new Junior Doctors when compared with other graduate jobs.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Conservatives doing more good for the country.

 

[tomtom94]

UK gov't really pushing for privatized healthcare.

Yep.

Cut it until it no longer works, then privatise it.

 

[Enco]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

Lol

'Slightly shitty hours' and 'a lifetime of great pay'? Are you being serious?

Doctor pay (at least in the UK) is garbage when you look at the hours you put in.

 

[Goodlife]

Well then you friends are clueless as to the actual situation. Disappointing really.

Nurses very rarely have anything good to say about dr's.

 

[Spaghetti]

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

does it not occur to you that everybody is getting stiffed, and your nurse friends are effectively "fighting over scraps" in regards to junior doctors?

 

[GJS]

The last time the senior doctors went on strike it didn't work. Their pension age still went up.

Lets see what happens when the rest of the doctors go on strike.

It's easy to understand doctors disagreements with the changes, but they are the only profession within the NHS with a union that may possibly have a slim chance to get change, even then the BMA is considered a weak union by the government.

It is understandable that other professions within the NHS may not agree with the doctors.
Every other profession in the NHS gets shafted with little consultation under the agenda for change. Most have lost their overtime pay, get little remuneration for on-calls, have had deterioration in working patterns, and there was nothing they could do to stop it.

 

[SuperBowser]

The last time the senior doctors went on strike it didn't work. Their pension age still went up.

This time is very different. The ballot had 75% response rate with an overwhelming 98% for full industrial action. It's rare to see any group or body this unanimous in their decision.

I think staff in the NHS should pay close attention to what is happening. It's disappointing if they wish their colleagues to suffer without educating themselves on the actual issues. How do you think 24/7 non-emergency services will be provided at no extra cost? Nurses, radiographers, HCAs, pharmacists, porters, physiotherapists, OTs and social workers should all be worried about similar incoming changes if doctors lie down and take this.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Jeremy Cunt's disregard is terrifying.

Came in to check we were referring to him as this, good job with the first post.

 

[faridmon]

On one hand, I get that you have to fight for better pay for whatever hours you put in.

On the other hand, NHS is on under budget as it is, there aren't enough doctors and the working hours of a normal doctors is ridiculous anyway with so many working extra shift with no pay and not mention how horrible Nurses are treated in the all midst of it. What makes a Junior Doctor all the same, get the right to have all this commotion?

 

[Dopus]

On one hand, I get that you have to fight for better pay for whatever hours you put in.

On the other hand, NHS is on under budget as it is, there aren't enough doctors and the working hours of a normal doctors is ridiculous anyway with so many working extra shift with no pay and not mention how horrible Nurses are treated in the all midst of it. What makes a Junior Doctor all the same, get the right to have all this commotion?

It's not about the money. Junior doctors are normal doctors, the term junior is misleading - Specialty registrars count as Juniors too, not just those doing FY1 and FY2.

 

[Any Questions]

It's almost as if people forget how bad things get under Tory government.

Jezza would be far far far worse. Very far.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

Good job Hunt. Fucking nailed this one didn't you?

Jezza would be far far far worse. Very far.

How?

 

[SuperBowser]

On one hand, I get that you have to fight for better pay for whatever hours you put in.

On the other hand, NHS is on under budget as it is, there aren't enough doctors and the working hours of a normal doctors is ridiculous anyway with so many working extra shift with no pay and not mention how horrible Nurses are treated in the all midst of it. What makes a Junior Doctor all the same, get the right to have all this commotion?

"Junior doctor" refers to any doctor that is not a Consultant (leading clinician of the team) ie. people in their 30s and 40s too.

This is about the new contract. Doctors aren't asking for more pay. They are asking to not be worked to breaking point.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Yes because the NHS has infinite money, and having to deal with slightly shitty hours in order to guarantee a lifetime of great pay and the worlds fucking cushiest public pensions is just awful.

My best friend and another close friend are both nurses and they are furious about how junior doctors are acting like precious princesses over something which has been a long time coming.

You're just as out of touch with real life as most Conservative MP's.

They believe they know what hard work is when most of them were born in to wealthy backgrounds and given an automatic headstart and opportunities on so many levels.

They are out of touch, you are out of touch and this country is being crippled through mismanagement. When the shit becomes apparent for all they will simply pull the "IT WAS THE FOREIGNERS WHO DID IT!" and many will fall for that bullshit line and vote them in again.

I'm doing my best to get out of this shit cycle.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Let's massively cut community support so we can mend communities.

Let's make renewable energy a key focus after cutting funding to renewable energy.

Let's protect and make the NHS great by relying on the goodwill of staff and making them work harder.

Fuck mental health, people should naturally be strong just like us, who "worked hard" whilst we were born into families who gave us massive saftey nets and opportunities our whole lives.

Let's fix the middle east by bombing syria instead of tackling the source in Saudi Arabia. Instead we will ignore their awful human rights and make deals with them.

Corporate corruption and unpaid billions in unpaid taxes? Nah, we believe if we help these businesses even more the wealth will trickle back down to the poor!

Hey poor people! Here's a living wage which won't be enough to live on by the time it's implemented!

We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world, so I suppose we can let just 20,000 of you subhuman refugees in over 5 years. I suppose.

___

Thanks Daily Mail, thanks UK public who can't use their own minds to think and voted in this wonderful party once again.

Jeremy Corbyn? Oh no! He's that awful socialist man who doesn't like to sing the national anthem, wants a nuclear free world and wants to retain the human rights act!

 

[GJS]

This time is very different. The ballot had 75% response rate with an overwhelming 98% for full industrial action. It's rare to see any group or body this unanimous in their decision.

I think staff in the NHS should pay close attention to what is happening. It's disappointing if they wish their colleagues to suffer without educating themselves on the actual issues. How do you think 24/7 non-emergency services will be provided at no extra cost? Nurses, radiographers, HCAs, pharmacists, porters, physiotherapists, OTs and social workers should all be worried about similar incoming changes if doctors lie down and take this.

Like I said.
Most of the terms they want to apply to the doctors are already applied to the rest of the NHS staff already under the agenda for change. Doctors, dentists, and senior management were the only groups of NHS staff who managed to avoid getting placed under the agenda for change.

I have to work weekends as a pharmacist in the NHS for no extra pay. When I was on-call I had to work my normal job all day and then be on-call all night, for ~£1.50 an hour. I do not get paid for any other work outside of my contracted hours.

 

[Jackpot]

Lol

'Slightly shitty hours' and 'a lifetime of great pay'? Are you being serious?

Doctor pay (at least in the UK) is garbage when you look at the hours you put in.

Don't waste your breath. It's clear how little thought went into his post.

How?

We wouldn't be able to spend $186 billion on nukes in order to pretend we're still a superpower.

 

[faridmon]

It's not about the money. Junior doctors are normal doctors, the term junior is misleading - Specialty registrars count as Juniors too, not just those doing FY1 and FY2.

"Junior doctor" refers to any doctor that is not a Consultant (leading clinician of the team) ie. people in their 30s and 40s too.

This is about the new contract. Doctors aren't asking for more pay. They are asking to not be worked to breaking point.

Ah that makes sense. Then if that is the case, then I am all supportive for their endeavour. Although that doesn't still change the fact that Nurses are still treated badly and need their own protection of some sort.

 

[Lamel]

no, our residents are treated as bad as the junior doctors woud've been if those contracts went through.

that's how fucked up healthcare is in america.

Residents do work crazy hours, but studies show that having one doctor taking care of the patient and having less hand-offs to other doctors is actually better for patient outcomes; it balances out the possible sleep deprivation etc. On top of that, a lot of residents choose to work past the 80 hour limit (ex. surgery residents) because this is the time they have to develop their skills.

But overall I agree, healthcare in america needs some major reforms.

 

[Ogodei]

You joke, but for him it probably is.

The government doesn't want to save the NHS. They don't give a shit about the health of the people using it. They want to privatise as much of it as possible to siphon money off to themselves and their toffy mates, and then drive as many people away from it to private health as it collapses in order to put cash in the pockets of... themselves and their toffy mates.

But again, how could people not know this when they voted in a Tory government?

It's the standard playbook in the US. Introduce policies to fuck up a functioning government service. Then blame government for doing something the private sector could do better. Then privatize to companies you or your donors have stakes in. $$

 

[NekoFever]

Jeremy Hunt literally wrote a book about privatising the NHS. How clear can it be what their ultimate intentions are?

Thankfully it seems like the public is behind the doctors. Even on right-wing news sites that are spinning it as irresponsible doctors putting patient safety at risk, the comments are overwhelmingly on the doctors' side.

The only people who think more privatisation in the NHS is a good thing are the Tories who stand to profit from it.

Jezza would be far far far worse. Very far.

The alternative was Ed Miliband, not Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[Nivash]

Talked to a British doctor about this quite recently and she was absolutely livid about it, and deservedly so. The changes are mental. It's not just the hours, lower compensation for overtime can have serious repercussions for a profession that tends to work ridiculous amounts of overtime at odd times of day. As in "40 % pay cut" repercussions.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/18/junior-doctors-new-contract-cut-pay-40-per-cent

Yes, that's 40 % with a zero after the four. How would you like it to have almost half your pay cut while being forced to work more? The doctor I talked with was fully convinced that the goal is actually to break the NHS because this goes beyond normal incompetence and continues into deliberate mismanagement territory. The idea would be to make working for the NHS so unpalatable that the government can force doctors to support privatising it out of sheer self-preservation.