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Why isn't Virtua Fighter as popular as Tekken?

DT MEDIA

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus

Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix both have a panda, and Megamix has a bomb-throwing duck, a giant yellow rabbit, a big Mexican jumping bean with a big hat, that guy from Rent-a-Hero and the Daytona car. Oh, and a slab of meat with cartoon fists.

Where the @#$%& is Megamix, Sega?!

Update: Let's not forget about the AM2 palm tree! Seriously, Sega, what gives? We should be playing Megamix Part 10 by now.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Short Version: Virtua Fighter is significantly more difficult to learn and involves hours of study and practice to learn and become skilled. Tekken, and most of the major fighting games, can be played at an entry level by mashing buttons. It's two very different worlds.

Long Version: It's interesting how VF became so popular in Japan while never reaching more than minor cult status in the West, and even then only with Virtua Fighter 2 on Saturn and VF4 on Playstation 2. It just never found a critical mass of fans who embraced it. But I've always felt that was because most players were never properly taught how it plays, combined with the overall casual-oriented nature of the genre. Most kids want fighting or wrestling games to be simple button-mashing affairs where you just crash on a couch and have fun with friends. They're not looking for a martial arts simulation that plays like algebra mashed with speed chess and rock-paper-scissors.

I say this, of course, as a diehard VF fan. But I freely admit that the series is unique in the genre and too complex for most players' tastes. At least in the mid 1990s, there were older gamers who enjoyed Karate Champ and International Karate, which were the spiritual ancestors to VF and focused on martial arts tactics. Today, I can't imagine that anybody under 35 has ever heard of KC or IK/IK+, aside from maybe super-diehard Amiga freaks.

In any case, Virtua Fighter involves many elements to study and master in order to become good. You can't just mash the punch button or find some secret move to use over and over and over. For example, here's a quick list of the skills you need to learn:

- Your fighter's move list.
- Your opponent's move list.
- The rock-paper-scissors structure of attacks, blocks and throws.
- The difference between minor and major counters.
- The difference between an attack's execution time and recovery time.
- Understanding of frame rate data and the difference between "punch counterable" and "throw counterable."
- The concept of throw escapes and an understanding of positioning (where you end up afterwards).
- Foot stance and the difference between "closed" and "open" stance.
- The difference between "canned" and "rolled" (or custom) combos.
- The use of guard-cancel to cease a canned combo.
- The uses of crouch dashing to save frames and set up attacks.
- Understanding different weight classes and how that affects floating.
- If you're playing VF 1-3, learning NOT to jump! Don't use those damned floaty jumps!

Let's compare this to Tekken 3 as an example. Here's how to play:

- Choose Eddy Gordo.
- Mash the kick buttons to perform his spectacular 10-hit breakdancing routine.
- Rinse and repeat.

See the difference?

Virtua Fighter just involves so much more, and the learning curve at the start is far higher than just about any major fighting videogame series. That depth and complexity is celebrated by fans because it really does reward practice, but this also has the downside of alienating rookies, who will always get their butts handed to them by more experienced players. It can be very discouraging and frustrating and Sega never really found a way to balance beginners and experts, even with the later installments of the series that added a lot of easy canned combos to the game.

For most gamers, fighting games are a casual affair, something that is just played for quick fun and not taken too seriously. They just want to mash buttons and have something cool happen. They don't want to spend an hour in a college course about a dozen different things they have to think about all at once while playing. They just want to play.

I never understood why Sega of America never bothered to teach gamers how to play VF the way it's meant to be played. They never released any strategy guides (the books that were published here only listed the moves and made no mention of any of my bullet points, especially the frame data, which is probably the most crucial element of gameplay). They never released any videotapes or DVDs showing competitions or tournaments or cool custom combos. They never built up a professional tournament scene like in Japan. They should have brought over the Tatsujin guys like Bun Bun Maru and Ikebukuro Sarah (they also should have released Anarchy in the Nippon, Zero Divide and DOA on Saturn, but that's another rant) to show the kids how it's done.

Unfortunately, for most casual gamers back in the day, VF was seen as nothing more than "punch-punch-kick" and an interesting curiosity, but lacking the polish and flash and simple joy of Tekken 3. Have I mentioned Eddy Gordo lately? That dude was literally the only thing pulling University of Minnesota boys away from Goldeneye, and lemmie tell you, that was a near-impossible feat. I'll bet half those guys still have their Nintendo 64's plugged into the television set to play Bond, that is, if their wives allow them to do so.
Aside from a unique feature like open and closed stances, every other bullet point goes for any fighting game out there too.

You're telling me Tekken, or any other fighting game like Street Fighter doesn't require skilled fighting gamers to learn move sets, timing, frame count and counters?
 

DT MEDIA

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
So you're saying Tekken is less complex in this pointless rant because of ONE broken character ignoring all the other characters and tournament scene surrounding Tekken?

Lol, you have to learn more stuff than what you listed to be competitive at Tekken, what a load of cow manure.


I wasn't comparing competitive play. I was sharing my experiences with college kids from the late 1990s. Tekken fans will tell you that the series has a lot of depth at high levels of play, but most casual gamers don't do that. They just play fighting games to mash buttons and have fun. See Also: N64 WCW wrestling games.
 
Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix both have a panda, and Megamix has a bomb-throwing duck, a giant yellow rabbit, a big Mexican jumping bean with a big hat, that guy from Rent-a-Hero and the Daytona car. Oh, and a slab of meat with cartoon fists.

Where the @#$%& is Megamix, Sega?!

You forgot the tree from the Sega AM2 logo.
 

Reizo Ryuu

Member
This is a myth. VF is easier to play than Tekken.
Maybe in the twilight zone, I can shove the controller into the hands of people who've never played either game, but tekken will produce a bunch of flashy shit just by button mashing.
Nobody is talking about "high level/competitive play", because that's a niche in itself, VF was just never as approachable as tekken.
 

DT MEDIA

GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus
Aside from a unique feature like open and closed stances, every other bullet point goes for any fighting game out there too.

You're telling me Tekken, or any other fighting game like Street Fighter doesn't require skilled fighting gamers to learn move sets, timing, frame count and counters?


Again, I'm writing from the casual gamer perspective. Most kids at the arcades played Street Fighter 2 this way: jump kick, foot sweep, maybe an uppercut. Rinse, repeat. The super hardcore tourney players are in a different world altogether. The casuals (and we're talking most kids who played videogames in the '80s and '90s) just played for simple thrills. Mash buttons, use that one move that works over and over, get a bunch of free hits, bop-bop-bop-bop-KO.

And then they'd all get bored and go back to playing Golden Gun mode on Goldeneye, which by the year 2000 was practically an official religion at the U of MN campus.
 
Well I didn't know that. I don't know if it proves my point of VF not being "seen" or if it's my bias of my familiarity with Tekken but I do know Akira and Sarah was a guest character in DOA 5. Also I'm not saying VF needs lasers and fireballs but my point is Tekken took risks and added multiple guest characters with 2D game mechanics that appealed to fans of different forms of third party media. Although I hate Negan and Noctis being in the game and I'm not too fond of Akuma and Geese. Them being in the game introduced people to the game of Tekken and that's all what matters to me, it was great for marketing. SEGA needs to take more risk with VF and not only need to try to appeal to the purists. It doesn't need to nerf the gameplay.
Geese Howard from Fatal Fury?
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
You're saying a game connected to FFVII wasn't a flagship title?
It had a strong name, but that doesn't always translate to having a huge prestige. I kinda have my doubts that the player base from FF7 would translate into a fighting game, to be honest. My point is that Tekken was Playstation. There were more titles than just Tekken obviously, but most people who heard about Playstation also know about Tekken. They go hand in hand. At least back then. The same thing could be said about FF7, but Einhander... Nah, not really.
 
It had a strong name, but that doesn't always translate to having a huge prestige. I kinda have my doubts that the player base from FF7 would translate into a fighting game, to be honest. My point is that Tekken was Playstation. There were more titles than just Tekken obviously, but most people who heard about Playstation also know about Tekken. They go hand in hand. At least back then. The same thing could be said about FF7, but Einhander... Nah, not really.
Einhander is a space shooter lol.
 

Dr Bass

Member
I used to be pretty decent at VF2 and I'm not sure I ever bought the whole "VF is more advanced!" mantra constantly echoed by the really dedicated. From what I remember VF basically had a system of attacking and countering similar to a "rock-paper-scissors" setup, with each character having a very distinct style and way to play as them. It wasn't very easy to go from using Lau to Wolf for example. But going from Ryu to Zangief in SF2 ... well you could sorta do it and get by with the basics.

That said, every decent fighting game has counters, unique characters to play, and ways to play. VF just has a distinct flavor of that, same as the old Samurai Shodown games had it's own distinct approach and feel to fighting. I do appreciate that VF tries to feel more "grounded" in it's approach but yeah, I felt like I got good enough at the time to dismiss the "VF is sooooo superior" talk as self-perpetuating nonsense.

If anyone can link to a really high quality match that clearly demonstrates the series' superiority, I would love to see it.
 
Lol, you have to learn more stuff than what you listed to be competitive at Tekken, what a load of cow manure.
You're telling me Tekken, or any other fighting game like Street Fighter doesn't require skilled fighting gamers to learn move sets, timing, frame count and counters?
This isn't about competitive play, though. It's about popularity, and no fighting game in the history of gaming ever got popular because of its competitive scene. If only people interested in serious competitive play bought these games they all would have gotten canned after the first entry for lack of sales.

Yeah, Tekken is deep. There's no doubt about that. Maybe even as deep as Virtua Fighter, who the hell knows. But what matters is that it's also super accessible and enjoyable for people who just want to have some fun playing arcade mode or beating on their friends. Growing up, it was the one game even my non-gamer friends wouldn't say no to. Why? Because you could literally mash buttons and cool shit would happen on screen. They could do that for hours without getting bored. In VF or SF your character would just stand there, punching and kicking air. Easy win for Tekken.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
This isn't about competitive play, though. It's about popularity, and no fighting game in the history of gaming ever got popular because of its competitive scene. If only people interested in serious competitive play bought these games they all would have gotten canned after the first entry for lack of sales.

Yeah, Tekken is deep. There's no doubt about that. Maybe even as deep as Virtua Fighter, who the hell knows. But what matters is that it's also super accessible and enjoyable for people who just want to have some fun playing arcade mode or beating on their friends. Growing up, it was the one game even my non-gamer friends wouldn't say no to. Why? Because you could literally mash buttons and cool shit would happen on screen. They could do that for hours without getting bored. In VF or SF your character would just stand there, punching and kicking air. Easy win for Tekken.
I agree.

Tekken to me always seemed more fun and for casuals to goof around with because it looked better, had bone crunching hits, and I played Tekken Force too (and sucked at it when on paper it should be easy!?!?).

I'd say Tekken is a much deeper game. More characters, more moves, and a hell a lot more unpredictable since there's so many kinds of fighting styles and attacks that can come your way.

VF games seem to have hardly any moves. And boring as shit.

Personally, I dont think there is one thing VF is better at over Tekken aside from someone preferring more grounded graphics as opposed to Tekken's crazy cast with exploding fist sparks.
 
Its hard to be better when you keep re-releasing a 15 year old game instead of making sequels that are more on par with todays standards and actually add some story elements. Otherwise its just an EVO fighter, not something you will play much at home alone.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Short Version: Virtua Fighter is significantly more difficult to learn and involves hours of study and practice to learn and become skilled. Tekken, and most of the major fighting games, can be played at an entry level by mashing buttons. It's two very different worlds.

Long Version: It's interesting how VF became so popular in Japan while never reaching more than minor cult status in the West, and even then only with Virtua Fighter 2 on Saturn and VF4 on Playstation 2. It just never found a critical mass of fans who embraced it. But I've always felt that was because most players were never properly taught how it plays, combined with the overall casual-oriented nature of the genre. Most kids want fighting or wrestling games to be simple button-mashing affairs where you just crash on a couch and have fun with friends. They're not looking for a martial arts simulation that plays like algebra mashed with speed chess and rock-paper-scissors.

I say this, of course, as a diehard VF fan. But I freely admit that the series is unique in the genre and too complex for most players' tastes. At least in the mid 1990s, there were older gamers who enjoyed Karate Champ and International Karate, which were the spiritual ancestors to VF and focused on martial arts tactics. Today, I can't imagine that anybody under 35 has ever heard of KC or IK/IK+, aside from maybe super-diehard Amiga freaks.

In any case, Virtua Fighter involves many elements to study and master in order to become good. You can't just mash the punch button or find some secret move to use over and over and over. For example, here's a quick list of the skills you need to learn:

- Your fighter's move list.
- Your opponent's move list.
- The rock-paper-scissors structure of attacks, blocks and throws.
- The difference between minor and major counters.
- The difference between an attack's execution time and recovery time.
- Understanding of frame rate data and the difference between "punch counterable" and "throw counterable."
- The concept of throw escapes and an understanding of positioning (where you end up afterwards).
- Foot stance and the difference between "closed" and "open" stance.
- The difference between "canned" and "rolled" (or custom) combos.
- The use of guard-cancel to cease a canned combo.
- The uses of crouch dashing to save frames and set up attacks.
- Understanding different weight classes and how that affects floating.
- If you're playing VF 1-3, learning NOT to jump! Don't use those damned floaty jumps!

Let's compare this to Tekken 3 as an example. Here's how to play:

- Choose Eddy Gordo.
- Mash the kick buttons to perform his spectacular 10-hit breakdancing routine.
- Rinse and repeat.

See the difference?

Virtua Fighter just involves so much more, and the learning curve at the start is far higher than just about any major fighting videogame series. That depth and complexity is celebrated by fans because it really does reward practice, but this also has the downside of alienating rookies, who will always get their butts handed to them by more experienced players. It can be very discouraging and frustrating and Sega never really found a way to balance beginners and experts, even with the later installments of the series that added a lot of easy canned combos to the game.

For most gamers, fighting games are a casual affair, something that is just played for quick fun and not taken too seriously. They just want to mash buttons and have something cool happen. They don't want to spend an hour in a college course about a dozen different things they have to think about all at once while playing. They just want to play.

I never understood why Sega of America never bothered to teach gamers how to play VF the way it's meant to be played. They never released any strategy guides (the books that were published here only listed the moves and made no mention of any of my bullet points, especially the frame data, which is probably the most crucial element of gameplay). They never released any videotapes or DVDs showing competitions or tournaments or cool custom combos. They never built up a professional tournament scene like in Japan. They should have brought over the Tatsujin guys like Bun Bun Maru and Ikebukuro Sarah (they also should have released Anarchy in the Nippon, Zero Divide and DOA on Saturn, but that's another rant) to show the kids how it's done.

Unfortunately, for most casual gamers back in the day, VF was seen as nothing more than "punch-punch-kick" and an interesting curiosity, but lacking the polish and flash and simple joy of Tekken 3. Have I mentioned Eddy Gordo lately? That dude was literally the only thing pulling University of Minnesota boys away from Goldeneye, and lemmie tell you, that was a near-impossible feat. I'll bet half those guys still have their Nintendo 64's plugged into the television set to play Bond, that is, if their wives allow them to do so.
Stuff like that is at times the kind of thing Namco adds as a streamlined gimmick to a specific character like Dr. Boskonovitch or Lei Wulong's stances or Hwoarang's different leg forward stuff, yet is all a core system needed to be taken in account with everybody in VF for even the most basic of effective fighting techniques.

Tekken kept copying and streamlining from VF anyways. 3 had the side stepping from 3, 4 had the uneven terrain from 3 also (funnily enough it wasn't received so well in either so it's weird they took it after VF abandoned it), being a 3D fighter in the first place was pioneered by VF, VF2 was the first to use motion capture, etc.

Edit: although I guess Tekken 4 came before VF4 so they maybe didn't know Virtua Fighter had already abandoned that concept during development even if they saw VF4 before it released, then Tekken 5 once again followed VF and ditched it too, lol. Tekken was also on PS2 base arcades back then so they ported better too.

One of the things I'd like to see next, for most 3D fighters really, save the most cartoony, not just VF, is for them to ditch juggling altogether. If you really must have it as a gameplay element then I dunno, give it the guise of staggering or something so you pummel a standing opponent until they drop or get a chance to recover.
 
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Neolombax

Member
I personally feel Tekken has more interesting characters and fighting styles compared to VF. Also, Tekken seems to be more causal friendly, for people like me who dont want to study and practice characters and want to look good fighting straight away.
 
VF is more complicated and Tekken is easier to pickup and play. Button mashing can work in Tekken. Not so much in VF.

that and the block button being back in Tekken. Also playstation's rise and sega's demise.
 
Maybe in the twilight zone, I can shove the controller into the hands of people who've never played either game, but tekken will produce a bunch of flashy shit just by button mashing.
I think this is due to the control scheme that Tekken uses: 1 button for each limb. It has always felt really intuitive. Like you remember that your character has a move(string) where he does left punch, right punch and right kick? You just press corresponding buttons in succession.
 
I worked at a Namco Cyberstation when Tekken 2 came out in the arcades and it was far more popular than VF2. I believe a big part of it had to do with the fact that Tekken 2 was way more entertaining to watch as a bystander which led to more people wanting to try it out.
 
Again, you can say VF has "harder" controls, needs more "skill". It doesnt change the fact if its a better game ro not. Just because a game is more hardcore doesnt mean its better. I mean if Tekken is so much easier to button mash, why are there monsters at EVO doing shit i can only dream of?
 
I wasn't comparing competitive play. I was sharing my experiences with college kids from the late 1990s. Tekken fans will tell you that the series has a lot of depth at high levels of play, but most casual gamers don't do that. They just play fighting games to mash buttons and have fun. See Also: N64 WCW wrestling games.
Why are you listing a bunch of things from VF that you need to "study and master in order to become good" then? and then basically saying mashing is all there is to tekken, "See the difference?" You are contradicting yourself.
You think a casual pick up and play VF gamer would learn frame data, stances and crouch dashing right away? At least be consistent with your arguments.

"Virtua Fighter is significantly more difficult to learn and involves hours of study and practice to learn and become skilled."
As if you could beat anyone half decent at Tekken with button mashing. Tekken is easily the more complex fighter just because of the massive roster and thousands of unique moves. And in addition to that you have the technical shit like frame data, frame advantage/recovery, input buffering, combos, counter hits, parries, wavedashing, korean backdash, just frames, throwbreaks, ground game/wake-ups and the list goes on.
 

Ev1L AuRoN

Member
Tekken is easier to pick up and play, I find the rooster more appealing and the quality in general at least for me, a console gamer was better.

Tekken 3 is amazing on Ps1, a lot of content, gorgeous graphics for the time, fast loadtime, 60fps.

Virtua Fighter 2 looks much simpler at my eyes. I know the combat is more technical and maybe because of that casual gamers like me didn't get to experience everything the game had to offer.
 

Orta

console wars 2020 - participant
VF required dedication, Tekken appealed to button mashing simpletons, the majority of its fanbase employing such a technique believing it to be a better game.
 

SentientStone

Gold Member
Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix both have a panda, and Megamix has a bomb-throwing duck, a giant yellow rabbit, a big Mexican jumping bean with a big hat, that guy from Rent-a-Hero and the Daytona car. Oh, and a slab of meat with cartoon fists.

Where the @#$%& is Megamix, Sega?!

Update: Let's not forget about the AM2 palm tree! Seriously, Sega, what gives? We should be playing Megamix Part 10 by now.

oh I did not know that.
I grew up as a nice kid playing Nintendo games, then one day I played Tekken 3 in the arcades and the rest is history (I became a cool and hip PlayStation teen shortly after that lol). I have never owned a Sega system unfortunately, but did enjoy VF5 on the PS3.
 
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KiteGr

Member
  • For the longest time, VF was coming out exclusively on "soon to die" consoles (Saturn & Dreamcast), while Tekken was coming out in the most popular consoles of all time, and with tons of instalments on each.
  • While the pros are the ones making the most noise, a fighting game's sales live and die by their casual audience. Tekken is very easy to pick up and understand just by playing, with every face button doing some form of attack and yet you could figure out combos and moves by just button mashing. All that without going into any of the extra modes and cinematic endings.
  • With VF being such the older franchise, it comes with generic designs for its characters. You couldn't put any of them on the cover and attract the curiosity of new casuals.
 

DForce

Member
- Less appealing fighters than Tekken
- Exclusive to Deamcast and Saturn.
- By the time it was released on PS2, there were a lot more fighters on the market.
 

Keihart

Gold Member
I think that if you are talking about Tekken 7, then it's only because VF missed the sports train really hard.
Tekken 7 stretch the budget really hard coming out of the gate with a whole tour and stuff planned, if VF would of had the support needed behind when it mattered, meaning this past gen, they could be coexisting side by side without much problem i think.

Good 3d fighters have very little competition and both games are different and deep enough to foster their own niches, even more so now with how available you can make game and connect people that want to compete.
Tekken has had some accessible things added in 7 but the game still scares people searching for a casual fighting game, nobody goes "i wanna play a casual fighting game, i guess i'll play tekken"
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Easy.

VF started the trend and was very popular in the Arcade but the Saturn version was a joke. Meanwhile Tekken console was similar to the Arcade. Tekken console also added FMV, and lots of unlockable characters which was unheard of at the time. VF console port added almost nothing.

I like VF but back then it felt so archaic compared to Tekken. It doesn't really have an identity. There is no backstory to it, online something vague in the manual. Technically VF was superior, especially in the Arcade. But I think Namco was wise to simply create Tekken so that the console port wouldn't suffer.

Tekken was simply more bang for your buck and its characters were more appealing. I greatly prefered the first 3 Tekkens on console, instead of the Saturn VF games. Even though VF2 was a technical marvel.
 

Stuart360

Gold Member
I was more of a Virtua Fighter guy back in the day, but yeah Tekken seems more popular overall. Probably to do with it being associated with Playstation.
These days its a pretty dead genre outside of MK anyway.
 

Dr Bass

Member

opinions on this video? I'm team VF for sure.
Most of the stuff this guy says is true of just about every fighting game. Fighting your opponent and not “your opponents character” is true of every game I got into back in the day. And people would play the same characters differently. I dunno, still not buying it. And like I said I used to be good at VF2.

Being able to read, psych out, or predict your opponents move before they do them is literally what’s fun about fighting games. He made it sound like it was specifically a VF thing. Nah …
 

nbkicker

Member
For me i loved tekken 2,3 and tekken tag, but then didnt click with tekken 4,5 &6 and then moved away from fighting games, but streetfighter 5 , tekken 7 and soul calibur 6 got me back into them, for virtua fighter ive played and enjoyed them all till i sold my ps3 for a ps4 and looking forward till tomoro to getting new one downloaded, although will see tomoro if virtua fighter clicks with me or if it gets deleted and i stick with tekken and soul calibur
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Virtua Fighter 1, 2 and 3 were not´on PlayStation. The long pause does not help. But, is Tekken 7 that popular?

I think its the best selling Tekken but you can't compare it to Tekken 3. That game launched on a single system, retail only. Wasn't cheap until much later. Sold like 7 million on PS1 alone and moved systems. Tekken 7 ofcourse is available on lots of platforms, has been massively discounted over the years (I wanted it digital for convenience so double dipped and got it for under 10 bucks lol) and is still pushed with DLC.

I wonder how much T3 would sell if it also appeared on PC and N64. Probably 10m+ easily.
 
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I think its the best selling Tekken but you can't compare it to Tekken 3. That game launched on a single system, retail only. Wasn't cheap until much later. Sold like 7 million on PS1 alone. Tekken 7 ofcourse is available on lots of platforms, has been massively discounted over the years (I wanted it digital for convenience so double dipped and got it for under 10 bucks lol) and is still pushed with DLC.

I wonder how much T3 would sell if it also appeared on PC and N64. Probably 10m+ easily.
I’m pretty sure I heard Tekken 3 reached over 9 million units just on PSOne and as you said, on a single platform. If it was multiplatform? Probably quite a bit more. I think Tekken 5 did really good as well.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I’m pretty sure I heard Tekken 3 reached over 9 million units just on PSOne and as you said, on a single platform. If it was multiplatform? Probably quite a bit more. I think Tekken 5 did really good as well.

Tekken 5 did well I remember, but the hype wasn't as big as with 3. I think the lukewarm reception of 4 and oversaturation were a thing. But T5 on PS2 was a great deal because the coin op versions of the first 3 were on the disc. I prefered that version of 3 despite not having a proper Anna etc. Gon and Dr.B I deliberately didn't unlock anyway, those ruined the game for me.
 
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