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With this Push to portable and Handled
- Thread starter SNG32
- Start date
SEGAvangelist
Member
I hope so. So much innovation can be made in other areas than graphics, and frame rates and resolutions increasing are welcome, IMO.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Yes, if you thought Seres S stagnated graphics/tech/ambition, wait til MS drops a giant wet shit with a goddamn handheld being the lowest common denominator.
Thick Thighs Save Lives
Gold Member
I do welcome the portable/handheld future.
killatopak
Gold Member
So mobile being the death of consoles is actually true.
We just worded it wrong. It's actually portable.
We just worded it wrong. It's actually portable.
I know one thing, Sony and Microsoft fans will consider the PS or MS hybrid a “console” if it sells extremely well. All the while having amnesia when the Switch is selling like it is and it’s not considered direct competition or a console to compete against them because it doesn’t fit their narrative.
midnightAI
Member
there's a push? I must have missed it
cash_longfellow
Gold Member
Did they stagnate for Vita and PSP? Won’t happen unless (if true) these handhelds are an integrated part of another unit that only stands as a way to connect to a TV, IE the Switch with the dock.
Consoles will always be ahead of handhelds, as an example, PC with Steam Deck. And, yes I am referring to PC as a console in this context. Steam Deck is cool and convenient, but in no way does it degrade pr stagnate the graphics on PCs.
The only way this would come to fruition is if all the big 3 go fully handheld…never gonna happen.
Consoles will always be ahead of handhelds, as an example, PC with Steam Deck. And, yes I am referring to PC as a console in this context. Steam Deck is cool and convenient, but in no way does it degrade pr stagnate the graphics on PCs.
The only way this would come to fruition is if all the big 3 go fully handheld…never gonna happen.
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reinking
Gold Member
..and the Steam Deck, Legion Go and ROG Ally? The handheld market is opening up bigger than it has ever been.
Ok but the psp and Vita had different games compared to console. With these new handhelds I’m sure Sony and Microsoft want the software in the same ecosystem between consoles and portable. So yea wolverine might run 60 fps on console and 30 fps on portable but what are the compromises for console in terms of visual aesthetics. There’s a big difference between GTA on psp and GTA on ps2. They were two different games designed for each hardware.
CamHostage
Member
...If there's a game on PS5 that proves a next-gen-only platform approach completely outmodes a high/low end combo model platform concept, I'd love to see it.
Modern engines can scale and swap materials pretty readily. The notion of "lowest common denominator" in game design hasn't been the critical factor in game development for the past two gens. It's there, but developers have much more to worry about and much more which will determine the look and design of their games. This type of low-end / high-end combo hardware design is based on matching feature sets of the chipset (at scale, though you see issues when "scale doesn't perfectly scale" like the Xbox version of BG3... MS also didn't afford Series S the headroom of RAM to truly scale invisibly in understanding that not everything scales evenly, which is the real issue so far with Series S, not that it exists in the first place.) When that matched hardware scale is done right, what you can do with one hardware type you can typically do at a lesser degree or strip the feature out. It is uncommon for games to be so dependent on a hardware-intensive feature (particularly a graphical feature) that it cannot work downscaled to some degree.
So far on PC, despite uber-expensive graphic cards offering path-tracing graphic options and high-end RTGI inclusion and other features not found on console counterparts (or console competition, if it is PC-exclusive,) there still is not one PC game that cannot run to some degree on Steam Deck. (Avatar crashes, but it runs smooth before it hits a wall.Other games have similar logistical incompatibility issues but not performance blocks.) Lesser hardware isn't holding games back, only very specific circumstances have posed problems (and most of those circumstances have nothing to do with graphics, so unless we want to go beyond the OP's concern of "graphics stagnating", that's not been an issue.)
There's possibilities of technology which would require aspects of high-end hardware not capable of shrinking down, but not a lot that developers are salivating to use or cursing current-gen consoles for not splurging to include. What's going on in game development generally isn't about "harnessing the power" of a machine like in the old days when devs went to the metal, it's more about efficient and smart design to feature high-quality assets at rapid deployment using multiple layers of texture/material definition and procedural detail placement on both micro and macro scale; the "next-gen" stuff never possible before is how they're using offline ML training for movement and physical properties, and designing routines to programmatically fill out the game world.
The real advances in gaming are coming in math and simulation training and massive data access, not brute-force "power" like in past gens. That's where we're at, and that's probably where we'll be next gen.
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lughnasadh123
Member
The current handheld revolution is paving the ground work for an (much better form factor) portable streaming machine.
Fbh
Member
Would be amazing.
A next gen with a portable console that has around Ps5 level visuals and then a more powerful home console that plays the same games at real 1440-4K and 60fps would be awesome.
I'd much rather get that than the current trend which is slightly better visuals than last gen with decent IQ at 30fps or 60fps with horrible IQ at sub 1080p resolutions.
A next gen with a portable console that has around Ps5 level visuals and then a more powerful home console that plays the same games at real 1440-4K and 60fps would be awesome.
I'd much rather get that than the current trend which is slightly better visuals than last gen with decent IQ at 30fps or 60fps with horrible IQ at sub 1080p resolutions.
cash_longfellow
Gold Member
I don’t think it will be that way. I feel it’s going to be the same way it was with the older handhelds. Maybe a tiny amount of the same games with maybe worse performance on the handheld, but most will likely be exclusive to the each system. Or, there might be a sort of reverse remote play where you can stream your handheld to the console and tv. Then again, who knows really. Lol
CamHostage
Member
Vita had plenty of games that were the same as console (albeit ports, not apps designed to run on both, as the chipsets were different and the concept of congruent platforms that played the same games at "scaled" levels wasn't a thing and would never have been then anyway, PS3's obtuse hardware could never be cut down to a portable while Vita was basically a mobile-level predecessor of Switch.)
Also PSP often used the same base engines of Renderware or Unreal Warfare or whatever else was viable at the time, so they were "different", but they were largely made the same.
True, there were differences between GTA on PSP and GTA on PS2. (Some of it being improvements, given that LCS ran on an improved version of the Rockstar RW engine and had enhancements added to GTA LC and even a bit of SA tech.) A lot of the differences simply came from the PSP only having 1.8GB of storage rather than 4/8GB of a DVD. Much less texture/layers to load, much more concern about streaming assets in against the battery drain. Other differences came from PSP being its own small-scale hardware design not in the same league as PS2 but not trying to be. It had enough power to do what it needed to do on its small screen and battery consumption, and it had a few bonus hardware features to pull tricks of its own in comparison to its console big brothers. And then GTA on PSP was made by a smaller development team on a different schedule and budget than the massive PS2 releases, and was always going to suffer from not getting total love. (I assume you're talking the popular GTA PS2 games and not the PS2 ports of LCS/VCS, but FYI, the PSP games later got ported to PS2 and they received their requisite improvements in quality thanks to the beefier hardware.)
I don't think it's a great comparison either way, considering almost 20 years has passed (wow, PSP will be 20 this December...) and tech and development has changed drastically in that time. But some of the core discussion points exist.
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Success
Gold Member
Holy shit you are right, portables will be the death of consoles.
CamHostage
Member
Assuming AMD is not making the Xbox ARM, which is a possibility...
Microsoft's next all-new Xbox console could have Arm not x86 CPU cores
Does that actually matter for PC gaming?
Quantum253
Member
I don't think it's a precursor to lower graphic fidelity in future games. I think it's more options to play in a busy world/life. For example, the Playstation Portal is still sold out everywhere. That little handheld went from who needs or wants this thing to months of availability issues.
However, the dedicated handhelds have to have the ability to tweak settings to help developers optimize for several different systems (which they already kind of do for the PC market).
However, the dedicated handhelds have to have the ability to tweak settings to help developers optimize for several different systems (which they already kind of do for the PC market).
CamHostage
Member
Well, streaming potentially eliminates this conversation, but gamers are not as happy to stream as video or audio users. If gamers were content with gaming too intensive for their hardware just being kicked over to beefy cloud boxes and streamed to them, then A) everything's fine and we don't need to worry about our consoles ever having enough power ever again, but B) we'll practically never need a new console again since all we'll ever need is a strong internet connection. However, hardcore gamers have so far rejected streaming and light-duty gamers have not been motivated to sign up for streams, and no game has been so l33t that it demonstrates conclusively "the power of the cloud" in graphics performance, so we're not there.
The idea is that you wouldn't have a "dedicated handheld", or at least not one with a ghetto'ized library. You would buy whatever form factor fits you best (do you like set-top boxes or handheld devices?) and then all the games of that ecosystem would work on both platforms, and you as the consumer would just weather the differences in performance or whatever other compromises you might bet in a handheld. Like Stream Deck, one game for all hardware, be it a $3000 PC or a cheap handheld.
The OP's concern here is that games will have to be made "for the handheld" rather than just "made", and so anything that would have an issue on the portable would be cut or simplified for both versions of the platform so that there's not the complication of a "good" and "bad" version; they'd both be "fine" but they'd be the same. So you wouldn't get crazy graphical features or advanced physics or groundbreaking AI because the portable conceivably couldn't handle it (and the game maker wouldn't see streaming as a viable option for the portable.) They'd cut their vision back instead of cutting back one of the versions.
...Personally, though, I'm not that worried. Scaling and modularity can do a whole hell of a lot, in fact nothing's really stopped it so far. This has not been a great gen, IMO, but for other reasons than just "power".
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Quantum253
Member
I like the option and prefer consoles. I've purchased almost every Sega/Sony/Nintendo handheld they created, but it was a supplement over a replacement. I don't game as much as I used to, so a small streaming device would be okay for me, but I no longer need or want a dedicated handheld. I do like the option to do so, however. And the x86-based handhelds are a nice way to get into PC gaming without having to build or buy a PC.
I get the building down point of view. It's been a topic for graphics ever since the Wii came around. Some people feel the game is held back because it has to be on an underpowered system, just as it is now with cross-gen conversations. I'm sure it's a mix of reasons, but I don't see dedicated handhelds dictating graphics across all the platforms. It's nice too that those handhelds are pretty capable where it might be easier to scale up/down as opposed to a new build.
Audiophile
Member
If they do that -- and given their poor market position -- my hope is other third party devs would just ignore the platform and focus on PS6/PC.