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[Sorcerer]

Arrogant Microsoft is back

Problem is they have nothing be arrogant about at the moment. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step Microsoft.

 

[Sorcerer]

I am wondering since the decision was reversed so quickly if this was some just kind of reverse psychology scheme, to make Microsoft seem like they really are the good guys who care about consumers. After much deliberation we here at Microsoft have deemed that we only serve the players interest, bluster, bluster, bluster...thanks have a good day.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think it was a move to consolidate services by making gamepass the better deal.

And also to get some extra revenue since in past couple years they've spent close to 10 billion on acquisitions.

They probably planned for this to go through and to obtain that extra revenue. Now that it's gone I wonder how they are going to get it back. That's the part that worries me.

 

[Papacheeks]

They probably planned for this to go through and to obtain that extra revenue. Now that it's gone I wonder how they are going to get it back. That's the part that worries me.

Once the Zenimax acquisition is finalized we are going to see the whole library if not close to it on gamepass. If the ubisoft deal is true we are going to see that as well soon. Would not be surprised if we see gamepass price increase soon. Or another tier created that may offer day to date games from Ubisoft/EA if they made a deal to charge for a higher tier.

 

[sainraja]

After retracting the increase, people were quick to commend them for listening to consumers, essentially making them the good guys. The whole thing is low risk: the price didn't increase, and the overall hit to their reputation quickly fades. Testing the market would have meant sticking to the increase and only reversing course, when it was clear the old model made more financial sense; rather, this is likely an instance of gauging consumer reaction, allowing them to immediately change course.

Bad press and consumer push back aren't factors I see playing much, if any, part in the last day-or-so. We're obviously not on the same page, which is fine; and of course, anything is possible, especially without inside confirmation.

When the news leaked and was later confirmed, they started to get bad press on the increase pretty quickly so you can downplay that all you want but it was definitely a factor. They wanted to get ahead of that before it got any worse by quickly retracting it. You can easily tell this with the statements they have made after reversing course and to salvage the mis-step a little they announced the removal of Gold from F2P games (which mind you isn't ready as they have some work to do to allow it or so they have stated - this further proves to me everything they have done so far has been a reactive response vs just seeing how people react to it by doing a live pubic test.)

What is the difference between 'testing the market' and 'gauging consumer reaction' exactly? lol They sound the same to me and regardless if they just wanted to gauge consumer reaction, they could have let the rumor of the increase stick out a little longer and they would have gotten that answer instead of almost going forward with something as stupid as an increase without making the value proposition better.

 

[sainraja]

There is difference between games published by Sony and other publishers, hitman 3 is not Sony game, Sony games even in USA ps store are $10 more expensive than games from other publishers, check hitman 3 price vs returnal

Hitman 3 is also a cross generation game by a third-party developer.

 

[anothertech]

I'm still in disbelief this was real.

What a shit show.

 

[drganon]

Fucking up, reversing course when you get pushback, and then groveling is very pro consumer.

 

[Rolla]

The narrative that some are pushing that abdicates Phil Spencer himself for any responsibility in this debacle, is perhaps one of the strangest things I've seen.

 

[Rolla]

I definitely don't buy into the "Phil Spencer is my friend" bullshit that xclowns push but I do think doubling the price of Gold out of the blue flies in the face of everything Phil has been trying to do for Xbox. It doesn't make any sense. While he definitely greenlit the decision I do feel like his hand was forced or heavily encouraged. I have no love for Phil but this was truly a baffling move that had to be caused by internal strife we aren't privy to.

Fair points.

But I don't think it's about internal strife. At least not in the "Work politics/egos" sense. I believe they had a plan for where GP should be at this moment in time. Projected forecasts etc etc. And they're simply nowhere near their target profit wise. I think it was Greenberg who let slip just recently that GP isn't making XBOX a dime even with 10/15 million "subscribers."

 

[Papacheeks]

I definitely don't buy into the "Phil Spencer is my friend" bullshit that xclowns push but I do think doubling the price of Gold out of the blue flies in the face of everything Phil has been trying to do for Xbox. It doesn't make any sense. While he definitely greenlit the decision I do feel like his hand was forced or heavily encouraged. I have no love for Phil but this was truly a baffling move that had to be caused by internal strife we aren't privy to.

My issue is even people close to microsoft youtube wise are saying this was planned for a while. Obviously it could be the enterprise side of microsoft that made this, but nothing gets talked about let alone approved without Phil.

He could have had no say, but he is the executive for xbox. So he has some pull at least. To me this smells like Mcirosoft aka big brother was planning this, phil knew about it but was outvoted. I think the other part of the company is getting restless with profit margin's.

Because they spent a shit load of money in the past 2 years on a division thats not making enough money to cover yearly operating costs.




Time stamp 47:58.

 

[fallingdove]

My issue is even people close to microsoft youtube wise are saying this was planned for a while. Obviously it could be the enterprise side of microsoft that made this, but nothing gets talked about let alone approved without Phil.

He could have had no say, but he is the executive for xbox. So he has some pull at least. To me this smells like Mcirosoft aka big brother was planning this, phil knew about it but was outvoted. I think the other part of the company is getting restless with profit margin's.

Because they spent a shit load of money in the past 2 years on a division thats not making enough money to cover yearly operating costs.




Time stamp 47:58.

This makes sense. Such a drastic action has to be indicative of a larger problem at Microsoft though.

As has been said, nobody doubles subscription cost in one swoop. If financials are as dire as to require the division to double the cost of one of their most successful services, I would expect that Microsoft try to make up for the 180 in other ways. They will just be sneakier next time.

 

[SlimySnake]

Good guy Phil Spencer is one of the most hilarious propaganda I've seen. People think this guy is their friend and absolve him of all the blame even though he was the head of first party going back to 2008 and the head of Xbox from day 0 of the XBox One gen. Easily the worst gen ever.

I think microsoft on the whole is a broken company. I was watching this clip of Steve Balmer, Bill Gates and a bunch of other MS execs dancing on stage at the windows 95 launch and it just looked like they were completely clueless and in their own their reality. I have seen MS conferences where they have tried to sell me TV, kinectimals, a real life Porsche and Madden Kinect and it's always made me wonder if these people are detached from reality.

That's not to say Sony and Nintendo dont have bad conferences. Wonderbook and Wii Music will go down in history as the funniest and worst presentations ever. But there is always a feeling that the MS execs dont really understand their own market. Yusuf Mehdi, Matt Booty, Phil Spencer, and others feel like they come from a different planet even when they are trying to do something nice like giving us the most powerful console or selling us gamepass. It never feels genuine and almost comes across as them trying to do us a favor.

The fact that Matt Booty went out and said that we will not have any AAA next gen first party titles for the first 2-3 years is so goddamn delusional, I instantly refused to believe it. Many thought he was talking about the 2 years starting from 2019 so we would start getting games in 2021 but Phil later clarified that it will be starting from the Xbox Series X launch. These guys are completely out of touch with reality. They do not understand how to run this business. They dont want to run this business. They want gaming to be something else. Half of the things they do feel like self sabotage. Or things Mitt Romney would do when brought in as a firm to streamline the business and sell off bad assets.

Series S exists because of this mentality. Some exec looked at the $500 price tag of the series X and said 'nope, we need higher market penetration on day one, what else you got?' Gamepass so transparently fits in the services business model of their office and azure services that it's clear they are trying to shoehorn in this model that simply wont work for a myriad of reasons. Doubling the price is so delusional it reminds me of the tv tv tv conference because they are so out of touch with this industry. They want to keep changing it to be something it's not. People dont want to watch TV. They dont want to play Kinect games. They dont want to be forced into buying gamepass. If gamepass was really that amazing, everyone would buy it just like they did Netflix. HBO spent decades building up a portfolio. Gamepass has been around for like 3 years and MS thinks everyone must buy it.

This will never change because the company culture is rotten. These guys chase success and follow trends. They dont innovate. it's why Apple is where they are. I really believe they dont understand what gamers want. We dont want Gamepass. We want games.

 

[Papacheeks]

This makes sense. Such a drastic action has to be indicative of a larger problem at Microsoft though.

As has been said, nobody doubles subscription cost in one swoop. If financials are as dire as to require the division to double the cost of one of their most successful services, I would expect that Microsoft try to make up for the 180 in other ways. They will just be sneakier next time.

Agreed. But the other means to make back that money is going to include doing something to services. I think gamepass subscribers are going to be in a rude awakening soon, unless they do some kind of family sharing plan for gamepass and have multiple tiers.

With rumors of ubisoft's Uplay being added to gamepass. I would have to assume they would increase price or add another tier.

 

[phil_t98]

Good guy Phil Spencer is one of the most hilarious propaganda I've seen. People think this guy is their friend and absolve him of all the blame even though he was the head of first party going back to 2008 and the head of Xbox from day 0 of the XBox One gen. Easily the worst gen ever.

I think microsoft on the whole is a broken company. I was watching this clip of Steve Balmer, Bill Gates and a bunch of other MS execs dancing on stage at the windows 95 launch and it just looked like they were completely clueless and in their own their reality. I have seen MS conferences where they have tried to sell me TV, kinectimals, a real life Porsche and Madden Kinect and it's always made me wonder if these people are detached from reality.

That's not to say Sony and Nintendo dont have bad conferences. Wonderbook and Wii Music will go down in history as the funniest and worst presentations ever. But there is always a feeling that the MS execs dont really understand their own market. Yusuf Mehdi, Matt Booty, Phil Spencer, and others feel like they come from a different planet even when they are trying to do something nice like giving us the most powerful console or selling us gamepass. It never feels genuine and almost comes across as them trying to do us a favor.

The fact that Matt Booty went out and said that we will not have any AAA next gen first party titles for the first 2-3 years is so goddamn delusional, I instantly refused to believe it. Many thought he was talking about the 2 years starting from 2019 so we would start getting games in 2021 but Phil later clarified that it will be starting from the Xbox Series X launch. These guys are completely out of touch with reality. They do not understand how to run this business. They dont want to run this business. They want gaming to be something else. Half of the things they do feel like self sabotage. Or things Mitt Romney would do when brought in as a firm to streamline the business and sell off bad assets.

Series S exists because of this mentality. Some exec looked at the $500 price tag of the series X and said 'nope, we need higher market penetration on day one, what else you got?' Gamepass so transparently fits in the services business model of their office and azure services that it's clear they are trying to shoehorn in this model that simply wont work for a myriad of reasons. Doubling the price is so delusional it reminds me of the tv tv tv conference because they are so out of touch with this industry. They want to keep changing it to be something it's not. People dont want to watch TV. They dont want to play Kinect games. They dont want to be forced into buying gamepass. If gamepass was really that amazing, everyone would buy it just like they did Netflix. HBO spent decades building up a portfolio. Gamepass has been around for like 3 years and MS thinks everyone must buy it.

This will never change because the company culture is rotten. These guys chase success and follow trends. They dont innovate. it's why Apple is where they are. I really believe they dont understand what gamers want. We dont want Gamepass. We want games.

that statement is a bit odd because gamepass is games

 

[fallingdove]

Agreed. But the other means to make back that money is going to include doing something to services. I think gamepass subscribers are going to be in a rude awakening soon, unless they do some kind of family sharing plan for gamepass and have multiple tiers.

With rumors of ubisoft's Uplay being added to gamepass. I would have to assume they would increase price or add another tier.

Yup. HoldOnToYourButts.gif

 

[SlimySnake]

that statement is a bit odd because gamepass is games

Nah, gamepass is a service. What MS needs to focus on is games.

 

[Papacheeks]

that statement is a bit odd because gamepass is games

Gamepass is games. But how it's presented now is this Ponderosa where you can get a meal thats fine and once in a while they have some food that's very excellent. But what you want is just really good food. Some people dont care, they see that buffet as a way to try tons of different things even if they dont finish any of their plates.

All people want is quality food.

Gamepass is great for the instances you get games like Doom eternal, carrion, wasteland 3, DMC V, red dead 2, and your MCC, gears. Some smaller indie style games like The gunk, Ori , streets of rage, battletoads ect.

I mean it really does depend on your tastes and how you consume content honestly.

And a lot of people see that value, but right now for people like myself who consume only certain games per year, for me to make it worth it, there needs to be more and more on PC gamepass which does not share the same library and a lot of times takes longer for things like EA PLAY to get to it.

 

[Interfectum]

Nah, gamepass is a service. What MS needs to focus on is games.

They are. The problem is Xbox is in the middle of a reboot and we are feeling it. The idea that Xbox doesn't have games will be absurd in a couple years when these studios start shitting them out left and right. This is a painful growth spurt that Xbox is going through and it's up to Phil and his team to make sure MS doesn't get cold feet and change course while it's going through this, IMO.

 

[sainraja]

I am wondering since the decision was reversed so quickly if this was some just kind of reverse psychology scheme, to make Microsoft seem like they really are the good guys who care about consumers. After much deliberation we here at Microsoft have deemed that we only serve the players interest, bluster, bluster, bluster...thanks have a good day.

I think this is just how they are trying to recover from that blunder. If you read around online, it's not exactly a good luck. People are acknowledging the good decision (and getting praised for recognizing it quickly) but also criticizing the fact that they thought it was a good move to do during a pandemic at that.

 

[Papacheeks]

They are. The problem is Xbox is in the middle of a reboot and we are feeling it. The idea that Xbox doesn't have games will be absurd in a couple years when these studios start shitting them out left and right. This is a painful growth spurt that Xbox is going through and it's up to Phil and his team to make sure MS doesn't get cold feet and change course while it's going through this, IMO.

My issue is what they signed for games coming to the platform in the meantime, is they are not on the same hype level. And it's weird that they didn't swallow their pride and buy a ton of big AAA exclusivity or pay a bunch of third party to make games for them years back.

I think the veil is starting to be pulled back, and honestly we are seeing how the parent company thinks of xbox honestly. And to me its what I've been saying my whole stay on gaf for a long time, enterprise needs to get the fuck away from xbox. Just support them and let them do what they want. Right now it feels like all the money being invested by the bigger part of the company is coming with a giant catch.

And it's the same issue xbox one had, and later years of xb360. Culture at xbox needs right people and not be intervened by enterprise.

 

[Interfectum]

My issue is what they signed for games coming to the platform in the meantime, is they are not on the same hype level. And it's weird that they didn't swallow their pride and buy a ton of big AAA exclusivity or pay a bunch of third party to make games for them years back.

I think the veil is starting to be pulled back, and honestly we are seeing how the parent company thinks of xbox honestly. And to me its what I've been saying my whole stay on gaf for a long time, enterprise needs to get the fuck away from xbox. Just support them and let them do what they want. Right now it feels like all the money being invested by the bigger part of the company is coming with a giant catch.

And it's the same issue xbox one had, and later years of xb360. Culture at xbox needs right people and not be intervened by enterprise.

I think the Bethesda purchase caught the attention of other execs at MS and there has to be some internal debates going on. Phil has a good vision for where xbox needs to be, the problem is it's going to cost tens of billions and we probably won't see Game Pass' full potential until 2023 at the earliest. Will corporate MS hold on until then while Sony ravages them in sales and the press?

Hardcore gamers are a tough crowd to please and enterprise MS probably thinks Game Pass should be snagging tens of millions of users now... they don't understand it takes known IP and massive, exclusive AAA games to bring them. Most hardcore gamers could give a shit about cost, they will buy what they want for whatever the price. Bottomline, MS needs Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout 5, etc, etc sooner rather than later.

 

[Papacheeks]

I think the Bethesda purchase caught the attention of other execs at MS and there has to be some internal debates going on. Phil has a good vision for where xbox needs to be, the problem is it's going to cost tens of billions and we probably won't see Game Pass' full potential until 2023 at the earliest. Will corporate MS hold on until then while Sony ravages them in sales and the press?

Hardcore gamers are a tough crowd to please and MS probably thinks Game Pass should be snagging tens of millions of users now... they don't understand it takes known IP and massive, exclusive AAA games to bring them. Most hardcore gamers could give a shit about cost, they will buy what they want for whatever the price. Bottomline, MS needs Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout 5, etc, etc sooner rather than later.

Yea, i think you hit it right on the head. Although from what we know zENIMAX had been in talks with Microsoft for sometime. But I wonder if it was just people from xbox? Unless them buying Zenimax was on the cards when they bought all those other studios? Usually when you are going to make a big investment a lot of this is put into your yearly budget. It cost them a couple billion or close to it for the purchase/create/expand of all those studios/projects.

Then on top to pay out 7.75 billion for zenimax is another, which probably was not in capital budget. This was straight up Microsoft making the purchase not the xbox division.

Yea to your last point totally agree, they need something big, with news of UK sales charts going insane because of stock increase on PS5's, it's going to be like that around the world once stock starts rolling in. And if the things iv'e heard are true, Sony is gearing up soon for another big state of play thats going to have more concrete info on what 2021 looks like officially release wise.

 

[Interfectum]

Yea, i think you hit it right on the head. Although from what we know zENIMAX had been in talks with Microsoft for sometime. But I wonder if it was just people from xbox? Unless them buying Zenimax was on the cards when they bought all those other studios? Usually when you are going to make a big investment a lot of this is put into your yearly budget. It cost them a couple billion or close to it for the purchase/create/expand of all those studios/projects.

Then on top to pay out 7.75 billion for zenimax is another, which probably was not in capital budget. This was straight up Microsoft making the purchase not the xbox division.

Yea to your last point totally agree, they need something big, with news of UK sales charts going insane because of stock increase on PS5's, it's going to be like that around the world once stock starts rolling in. And if the things iv'e heard are true, Sony is gearing up soon for another big state of play thats going to have more concrete info on what 2021 looks like officially release wise.

That's another problem MS faces. As they are pushing Game Pass hardcore there's a very good chance they cultivate a community that sticks to GP or bust. So while games like Hitman 3 get hype for massive sales on PS5, you don't hear shit about Series X. That could start a narrative of Series X being a dud cause nothing sells on the system while also Game Pass has no true killer app yet. They are in a very tough spot right now without something to hold on to. Fuck they can't even get Halo out the door.

 

[Papacheeks]

That's another problem MS faces. As they are pushing Game Pass hardcore there's a very good chance they cultivate a community that sticks to GP or bust. So while games like Hitman 3 get hype for massive sales on PS5, you don't hear shit about Series X. That could start a narrative of Series X being a dud cause nothing sells on the system while also Game Pass has no true killer app yet. They are in a very tough spot right now without something to hold on to. Fuck they can't even get Halo out the door.

Yea, you know the more we go into a stream/game-service world you now have this underlying feeling that making profit off it is even harder unless you own your own content let alone your content is the reason people sign up. Currently thats not the position MS is in right now. ANd seeing games like gears get turned into this shitfest grind/microtransaction bs to me shows that long term thats how they make more money off of their games. I dont know at what price they make money off of gamepass. But when Netflix is losing millions to sometimes billions doesn't bode well honestly.

Disney+ I dont know how much they are making, but they own all their content. Which to me is where MS wants to be with gamepass. But with EA, possibly ubisoft being on the service it can't be cheap in terms of operating costs.

 

[AgentP]

Losing money on Gamepass leads to desperation on Gold prices. Now where are they going to get their profit margins up? Not game sales. Maybe they can sell a bunch of $220 SSDs?

 

[SlimySnake]

They are. The problem is Xbox is in the middle of a reboot and we are feeling it. The idea that Xbox doesn't have games will be absurd in a couple years when these studios start shitting them out left and right. This is a painful growth spurt that Xbox is going through and it's up to Phil and his team to make sure MS doesn't get cold feet and change course while it's going through this, IMO.

My point is that Phil was incharge going back as far as 2008. This notion that they are going through a reboot is bizarre because this guy has been in charge for over 12 years, 7 years as CEO and still hasnt gotten his house in order. An entire generation has passed. I remember him buying Tomb Raider back in 2015 because he wanted something to combat Uncharted that holiday season. Absolutely clueless since his console was already getting Tomb Raider that holiday season. He needed to invest in a new studio back then. Not pay millions for an exclusive that was already going to be on his console.

We think they will start churning out games in 2 years but these guys are clueless. I would not be that optimistic in their ability to churn out games like Sony and Nintendo. I am sure they will fuck it up somehow. They are already doing that with Halo Infinite by making it a service game instead of going right back to work on a sequel. An entire AAA studio will be turned into a service studio for the next ten years.

there were rumors of Perfect Dark and Fable being GaaS or episodic games too. Rare doesnt even know what their game is even supposed to be and they revealed it over a year ago. Again, these execs are chasing all the wrong trends instead of putting in the time and effort to build talent and portfolios. They want to take shortcuts and the Zenimax acquisition is exactly that. A quick get rich scheme. The only problem is that those are real AAA games that need the PS audience and now they are left holding exclusive rights to these expensive IPs tied to a cheap service that will cost them hundreds of millions in revenue. They know it too which is why they have been so evasive on saying whether or not these games will come out on Playstaion.

 

[Andodalf]

That's another problem MS faces. As they are pushing Game Pass hardcore there's a very good chance they cultivate a community that sticks to GP or bust. So while games like Hitman 3 get hype for massive sales on PS5, you don't hear shit about Series X. That could start a narrative of Series X being a dud cause nothing sells on the system while also Game Pass has no true killer app yet. They are in a very tough spot right now without something to hold on to. Fuck they can't even get Halo out the door.

Counterpoint, 15 Million subs before we even get Halo and Starfield means they are in an incredible place and will moon when the big boys hit.

 

[Papacheeks]

Counterpoint, 15 Million subs before we even get Halo and Starfield means they are in an incredible place and will moon when the big boys hit.

Edit: Corrected with more accurate numbers.


Netflix has anywhere in 2019 167 Million to 73.08 in 2020 and still has issues making money.

 

[fallingdove]

My point is that Phil was incharge going back as far as 2008. This notion that they are going through a reboot is bizarre because this guy has been in charge for over 12 years, 7 years as CEO and still hasnt gotten his house in order. An entire generation has passed. I remember him buying Tomb Raider back in 2015 because he wanted something to combat Uncharted that holiday season. Absolutely clueless since his console was already getting Tomb Raider that holiday season. He needed to invest in a new studio back then. Not pay millions for an exclusive that was already going to be on his console.

We think they will start churning out games in 2 years but these guys are clueless. I would not be that optimistic in their ability to churn out games like Sony and Nintendo. I am sure they will fuck it up somehow. They are already doing that with Halo Infinite by making it a service game instead of going right back to work on a sequel. An entire AAA studio will be turned into a service studio for the next ten years.

there were rumors of Perfect Dark and Fable being GaaS or episodic games too. Rare doesnt even know what their game is even supposed to be and they revealed it over a year ago. Again, these execs are chasing all the wrong trends instead of putting in the time and effort to build talent and portfolios. They want to take shortcuts and the Zenimax acquisition is exactly that. A quick get rich scheme. The only problem is that those are real AAA games that need the PS audience and now they are left holding exclusive rights to these expensive IPs tied to a cheap service that will cost them hundreds of millions in revenue. They know it too which is why they have been so evasive on saying whether or not these games will come out on Playstaion.

I've had the sneaking suspicion that Microsoft purchased Zenimax primarily for their publishing and development prowess. I have long argued that Xbox didn't have the organization or the culture to manage all of the different companies and projects they were taking on. What better than to purchase a company that has proven to be successful at managing a large number of development cycles to take over studio management and general production. The IPs that came along with the acquisition were just icing on the cake.

 

[phil_t98]

Nah, gamepass is a service. What MS needs to focus on is games.

er can't they do both? kind of an odd statement , its not as if the people who sort game pass make the games

 

[fallingdove]

I am wondering since the decision was reversed so quickly if this was some just kind of reverse psychology scheme, to make Microsoft seem like they really are the good guys who care about consumers. After much deliberation we here at Microsoft have deemed that we only serve the players interest, bluster, bluster, bluster...thanks have a good day.

I doubt it. Microsoft knew how damaging 2013 was with TVTVTV and DRM. I can't imagine they would want to risk credibility again to further establish that they can course correct when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

[SlimySnake]

er can't they do both? kind of an odd statement , its not as if the people who sort game pass make the games

Gamepass was introduced in 2016. By 2022 when the first AAA series X games finally arrive, it wouldve been 6 years of gamepass focus with some of the worst games they have ever produced in their 20 year history.

Clearly they cant do both.

 

[phil_t98]

Gamepass was introduced in 2016. By 2022 when the first AAA series X games finally arrive, it wouldve been 6 years of gamepass focus with some of the worst games they have ever produced in their 20 year history.

Clearly they cant do both.

yes they can, games all depend on taste and maybe your taste not the same as others but there have been some great games since games pass

also gamepass was 1st June 2017

 

[oldergamer]

Gamepass was introduced in 2016. By 2022 when the first AAA series X games finally arrive, it wouldve been 6 years of gamepass focus with some of the worst games they have ever produced in their 20 year history.

Clearly they cant do both.

Some of the worst? I don't think anyone would take your word on what games are the "worst". I've had it for 2 years now, and its been great. It started off slow, but has really picked up steam. Gamespass didn't launch in 2016. it launched on June 1st 2017. get your facts straight.

 

[quest]

I

Gamepass was introduced in 2016. By 2022 when the first AAA series X games finally arrive, it wouldve been 6 years of gamepass focus with some of the worst games they have ever produced in their 20 year history.

Clearly they cant do both.

You tell the guys at asbo and playground they are producing some of the worst games in the industry. I am sure that would get a good laugh.

 

[SlimySnake]

yes they can, games all depend on taste and maybe your taste not the same as others but there have been some great games since games pass

it's hard NOT to have 'some' great games in a 6 year period, but lets agree to disagree.

I think Microsoft needs to put out some GOTY caliber titles first before they try and sell me this service I dont need. It's not about taste, it's about quality. Their last big GOTY contender was Halo 3 in 2007 and Gears 1 in 2006. They have been completely absent from GOTY talks for over a decade now.

Their focus needs to be getting back into those nomination lists. As great as some might find Gears 5, did it even get nominated? I would to see VGA nominees for this past decade and see if a single xbox first party game even got nominated for GOTY, let alone win one.

 

[phil_t98]

it's hard NOT to have 'some' great games in a 6 year period, but lets agree to disagree.

I think Microsoft needs to put out some GOTY caliber titles first before they try and sell me this service I dont need. It's not about taste, it's about quality. Their last big GOTY contender was Halo 3 in 2007 and Gears 1 in 2006. They have been completely absent from GOTY talks for over a decade now.

Their focus needs to be getting back into those nomination lists. As great as some might find Gears 5, did it even get nominated? I would to see VGA nominees for this past decade and see if a single xbox first party game even got nominated for GOTY, let alone win one.

Where are you getting 6 years from?

 

[SlimySnake]

Some of the worst? I don't think anyone would take your word on what games are the "worst". I've had it for 2 years now, and its been great. It started off slow, but has really picked up steam. Gamespass didn't launch in 2016. it launched on June 1st 2017. get your facts straight.

You tell the guys at asbo and playground they are producing some of the worst games in the industry. I am sure that would get a good laugh.

Sea Of thieves, crackdown, state of decay 2 all have below 70 metacritic.

Normally having three games receive poor scores wouldnt be a big deal but when they make up half of your output, it starts to look really really bad. Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, and Ori are great games but thats about it. 3 good games vs 3 really bad ones.

 

[SlimySnake]

Where are you getting 6 years from?

2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022.

6 years.

Here is my original quote:

Gamepass was introduced in 2016. By 2022 when the first AAA series X games finally arrive, it wouldve been 6 years of gamepass focus with some of the worst games they have ever produced in their 20 year history.

 

[quest]

Sea Of thieves, crackdown, state of decay 2 all have below 70 metacritic.

Normally having three games receive poor scores wouldnt be a big deal but when they make up half of your output, it starts to look really really bad. Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, and Ori are great games but thats about it. 3 good games vs 3 really bad ones.

They also had fs2020, outer worlds and waste land 3 that scored mid 80s or better metacritc to. 2 of those studios are getting beefed up for this coming up generation for Microsoft exclusives.

 

[phil_t98]

2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022.

6 years.

Here is my original quote:

Again each to their own taste

 

[SlimySnake]

Again each to their own taste

They also had fs2020, outer worlds and waste land 3 that scored mid 80s or better metacritc to. 2 of those studios are getting beefed up for this coming up generation for Microsoft exclusives.

Fine 6 good games and 3 bad ones. Is that good enough for 4 years and god knows how many dollars for a $10 a month service?

See, this is the problem with talking about Microsoft and first parties in general. Everything devolves into a pissing contest, list wars, and petty arguments. We have a company that just tried to double the price of a service that has ZERO benefits and we are doing list wars. This is beyond all that. This is about the same execs making the same mistakes. Phil and others have been there since the Kinect fiasco through the tv tv tv and always online disasters, through their worst first party output in three gens. And now this.

We can at least pretend that this is a problem with the leadership. And unless that leadership changes, we are going to see these same mistakes pop up over and over again.

 

[FrankWza]

15 Million subs

How many are paying full price? 15 mil against how many gold subs? Didn’t hit 10 mil until 3 years after it launched. Then went up another 5 mil in 6 months. That’s what happens when you’re giving it away with gold subscriptions that are required to play online. That 15 million is the perfect example of a padded number.

 

[phil_t98]

Fine 6 good games and 3 bad ones. Is that good enough for 4 years and god knows how many dollars for a $10 a month service?

See, this is the problem with talking about Microsoft and first parties in general. Everything devolves into a pissing contest, list wars, and petty arguments. We have a company that just tried to double the price of a service that has ZERO benefits and we are doing list wars. This is beyond all that. This is about the same execs making the same mistakes. Phil and others have been there since the Kinect fiasco through the tv tv tv and always online disasters, through their worst first party output in three gens. And now this.

We can at least pretend that this is a problem with the leadership. And unless that leadership changes, we are going to see these same mistakes pop up over and over again.

you started the list wars. By saying they can’t do gamepass and make games.

you brought up GOTY to, now personally I didn’t like god of war. I could see it was well produced and looked good but I personally found it boring

same with the uncharted games I could see they were well made but I didn’t like them

now I loved spider man and thought it was one of my games of the generation.

so it’s not about being anti PS, I just prefer what Microsoft offers for me and my taste in games. Side that with third party’s and am happy.

also let’s not pretend there is only Microsoft games on gamepass to

if you read my posts I said there is no defending the decision to try and up the price. Again you can’t applaud them for reversing the decision as it should never of happend

 

[phil_t98]

How many are paying full price? 15 mil against how many gold subs? Didn’t hit 10 mil until 3 years after it launched. Then went up another 5 mil in 6 months. That’s what happens when you’re giving it away with gold subscriptions that are required to play online. That 15 million is the perfect example of a padded number.

Or what happens when people stay at home because of a pandemic.

 

[Krisprolls]

I am wondering since the decision was reversed so quickly if this was some just kind of reverse psychology scheme, to make Microsoft seem like they really are the good guys who care about consumers. After much deliberation we here at Microsoft have deemed that we only serve the players interest, bluster, bluster, bluster...thanks have a good day.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

They just failed big time, but at least they quickly reversed the decision. It was 100 % unplanned, unless you think they printed all those Xbox cards for fun.

In PR terms it's terrible, now everybody knows they'll increase the price sharply some time later (which should have been obvious from the start actually).

They would have been a lot better off just making F2P games effectively free to play in Xbox Live Gold like they are everywhere else and not making any price change at all.

 

[FrankWza]

Or what happens when people stay at home because of a pandemic.

You’re still on that excuse someone else thought of for you? Awesome! All they need is 3 or 4 more worldwide pandemics and look out 25 mil.... It’s still $1 and they’re still giving it away

 

[phil_t98]

You’re still on that excuse someone else thought of for you? Awesome! All they need is 3 or 4 more worldwide pandemics and look out 25 mil.... It’s still $1 and they’re still giving it away

It’s as valid as your numbers

 

[Shelookdlvl18]

Good guy Phil Spencer is one of the most hilarious propaganda I've seen. People think this guy is their friend and absolve him of all the blame even though he was the head of first party going back to 2008 and the head of Xbox from day 0 of the XBox One gen. Easily the worst gen ever.

I think microsoft on the whole is a broken company. I was watching this clip of Steve Balmer, Bill Gates and a bunch of other MS execs dancing on stage at the windows 95 launch and it just looked like they were completely clueless and in their own their reality. I have seen MS conferences where they have tried to sell me TV, kinectimals, a real life Porsche and Madden Kinect and it's always made me wonder if these people are detached from reality.

That's not to say Sony and Nintendo dont have bad conferences. Wonderbook and Wii Music will go down in history as the funniest and worst presentations ever. But there is always a feeling that the MS execs dont really understand their own market. Yusuf Mehdi, Matt Booty, Phil Spencer, and others feel like they come from a different planet even when they are trying to do something nice like giving us the most powerful console or selling us gamepass. It never feels genuine and almost comes across as them trying to do us a favor.

The fact that Matt Booty went out and said that we will not have any AAA next gen first party titles for the first 2-3 years is so goddamn delusional, I instantly refused to believe it. Many thought he was talking about the 2 years starting from 2019 so we would start getting games in 2021 but Phil later clarified that it will be starting from the Xbox Series X launch. These guys are completely out of touch with reality. They do not understand how to run this business. They dont want to run this business. They want gaming to be something else. Half of the things they do feel like self sabotage. Or things Mitt Romney would do when brought in as a firm to streamline the business and sell off bad assets.

Series S exists because of this mentality. Some exec looked at the $500 price tag of the series X and said 'nope, we need higher market penetration on day one, what else you got?' Gamepass so transparently fits in the services business model of their office and azure services that it's clear they are trying to shoehorn in this model that simply wont work for a myriad of reasons. Doubling the price is so delusional it reminds me of the tv tv tv conference because they are so out of touch with this industry. They want to keep changing it to be something it's not. People dont want to watch TV. They dont want to play Kinect games. They dont want to be forced into buying gamepass. If gamepass was really that amazing, everyone would buy it just like they did Netflix. HBO spent decades building up a portfolio. Gamepass has been around for like 3 years and MS thinks everyone must buy it.

This will never change because the company culture is rotten. These guys chase success and follow trends. They dont innovate. it's why Apple is where they are. I really believe they dont understand what gamers want. We dont want Gamepass. We want games.

Why go through typing all that, only to completely defeat your own point at the end?

Much of your post is in reference to Microsoft as an entire company, rather than just the Xbox division. The actual points you touch on however, are more Xbox related.

You don't think MS execs don't have a firm grasp on reality, they're delusional, don't understand how to run a business, have rotten company culture, are out of touch with the industry, and are broken overall as a company. You mentioned each of these things in your post. You then conclude it by adding that MS "Chases success and follows trends", and that "they don't innovate. It's why Apple is where they are."

Where is Apple exactly if that's your comparison. They don't make a gaming console, and I'd hardly call much of anything about their play store as innovative. If you're comparing them as overall companies, it wouldn't be difficult to argue in Microsoft's favor there either. By summarizing your tirade with a 'That's why MS is successful like Apple is", you really just kinda defeat the whole point you were trying to make.

Even if we ignore that part, your entire argument doesn't hold much weight. The fact is, that they are indeed a successful company. They tend to innovate more than most companies. While they do follow trends at times, all companies do that, and as it relates to gaming... There's been several trends they haven't followed as well as trends they innovated and were subsequently followed. It boils down to this. If Microsoft were the way you described it, the facts, data, numbers, etc... wouldn't be what they actually are. So apparently, you might want to focus more on your own touch with reality vs MS's.