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Introduction to MOBAs

sobaka770

Banned
Tried playing Heroes of Newerth. Went through all the in-game tutorials. That seemed okay. It recommended that if you were a new player not to charge up the middle path to start. Seemed fair advice.

Try my first game, head down the lower path. Someone immediately tells me in text chat, "Y U BOT?" I said, "I'm not a bot, I'm a human." It wasn't until after the game - and I use that term loosely, I'll get to that later - that he was chastising me for using the bottom lane. Apparently the character I chose was a "carry" class - something the tutorial didn't explain - and my job was apparently to go up the middle path. After a few minutes my team started complaining that it was a 5-on-4 match (in other words, that I wasn't even there.) The entire team quit leaving me alone. I decided to just let the opponents win so I could just get the experience because at the time you could use that to get more characters instead of just choose one of a rotating ten. No such luck. The game apparently didn't count because my team didn't have enough players or something.

Second game went pretty much exactly the same. I couldn't do anything right, team rage quit, still no experience.

I asked GAF for help after that, and the gaffers were at least more cordial. They took me through some practice but recommended I go to some off-site pages and to spend a few hours reading up on how to play it before I actually play it.

That's when I uninstalled the game and decided never to bother with another MOBA.

That's rough. MOBA 101: in-game tutorials serve nothing, you need to read internet guides to understand tactics. In football terms, the MOBA tutorials are just like teaching you how to kick the ball and show you where the goal is. When you go play online in MOBA, by contrast, is like playing a real 11 vs 11 game. You need to know at least basic tactics (which can vary from game to game), game flow etc..

Unfortunately, because MOBAs are team-oriented if you suck, you will be a nuisance to the whole group. It's not like Starcraft where you can spend your weeks perfecting your zerg rush in bronze.

PS. Here's a practical advine: in every MOBA, if you are new or you think you suck, take support/healer. First games + carry pick = NONO.
 
PS. Here's a practical advine: in every MOBA, if you are new or you think you suck, take support/healer. First games + carry pick = NONO.

Uh huh. And when the game doesn't tell you which character is a support/healer and which isn't? What do you do then? I don't love multiplayer games but when I do play them I'm almost ALWAYS the healer. I'm the medic in TF2. I'm the dwarf priest in WoW. I'm the cleric in D&D. But in HON...every character was just a name.
 

Boken

Banned
League has fewer systems overhead but relies more on regular trading. I didn't really think it would be a controversial thing, particularly when more warding has to be done in League. Dota supports also have to tend to those higher level systems (like stacking and pulling) in a way that pulls them away from active combat.

its not about controversy, if you say something that makes leeg seem better than dota, youre gonna upset some1

Uh huh. And when the game doesn't tell you which character is a support/healer and which isn't? What do you do then?
you play league of legneds
i think even dota has labeled supports
 

Ran Ran

Member
I would really love to learn and get half decent at Dota2 but man there is sssoooo much to learn.

Especially for someone like me who has never played or got into any other MOBA
 

Archie

Second-rate Anihawk
Stacking and pulling haven't been as important since 6.79 when the camps were swapped and the creep equilibrium was changed.
 

sobaka770

Banned
Uh huh. And when the game doesn't tell you which character is a support/healer and which isn't? What do you do then? I don't love multiplayer games but when I do play them I'm almost ALWAYS the healer. I'm the medic in TF2. I'm the dwarf priest in WoW. I'm the cleric in D&D. But in HON...every character was just a name.

Then screw HoN.

LoL has hero difficulty parameter and tells you its purpose. DotA2 also tells you which heroes are supports(Vengeful Spirit), healers (Dazzle), tanks (Tidehunter) or carries (NONO) as well. Plus in DotA2 each hero has a "suggested items" interface which IMHO is very helpful if you're lost (not sure for LoL).
 

NBtoaster

Member
Uh huh. And when the game doesn't tell you which character is a support/healer and which isn't? What do you do then? I don't love multiplayer games but when I do play them I'm almost ALWAYS the healer. I'm the medic in TF2. I'm the dwarf priest in WoW. I'm the cleric in D&D. But in HON...every character was just a name.

Role should be irrelevant for your first games when everyone is new and just picks stuff they like the look of.

Unfortunately there are people that create new accounts just to beat up new players. If anyone in your first few games claims any deep knowledge of the game they're just a loser who can't win at any regular level anyway.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Stacking and pulling haven't been as important since 6.79 when the camps were swapped and the creep equilibrium was changed.
That's good to hear. I'm learning, thanks Moba Mega thread.
What if you're dead?
Then I tab out to read GAF.
They give you a death tab that displays every ability that contributed to your death that you can read.
 

Boken

Banned
Stacking and pulling haven't been as important since 6.79 when the camps were swapped and the creep equilibrium was changed.
err i know dimb has rescinded but - anyway in terms of laning, leeg laning does have more back and forth. while im not saying dota support is "not active" cos theres certainly a lot of stuff to do as a support, but leeg lanes are definitely a lot more interactive than dota players give it credit for

things that make dota support lanes less interactive (and interactivity is defined as the time u engage ur lane opponent)
while stacking and pulling arent as important, they're still there and add to non interactivity
denying also adds to that "non interactivity"
stout shield
on average, dota carry/support lanes are tankier relative to a league carry/support lane.
4 tango starts
minions fuck ur shit up
less warding time

while im not saying dota support is "not active", but leeg lanes are definitely a lot more interactive than dota players give it credit for

all your time is spent back and forth balancing the lane on a razors edge during power spikes cos you could just die
its like poking and feeling with projectiles in fighting games n then bam n then more poking

whereas in dota supports r like support characters in fighters that get called in sometimes to fuk dem up

What if you're dead?
dead time is alt tab time
 

inkls

Member
The support role in League is kind of more active. You don't really have time to read too much.

I disagree. You leave the lane as a support in Dota usually because you don't have the cc necessary to get a kill or you want to let your carry get full xp. There's alot of trilanes in dota currently so if the lane can't get kills the trilane will be at a severe level disadvantage. And supports also perform the role of gankers so they roam alot.
 

Metrotab

Banned
Ever since DotA 2 'clicked' for me, I've touched few other games of my library. Such a fun game, although that initial hump was intimidating to get over. At times, I felt anxious merely queueing up for games, and playing with some friends is definitely a recommended path to learning the game. But nowadays, I find solo-queueing to have a charm all of its own. Each match is unpredictable and different.

I'm still a complete newcomer though. Reading and watching lots of guides still. But when you're making nice plays based on the knowledge you've accumulated, it feels so rewarding and awesome.

Addicting stuff.
 
I've tried to get into Dota 2, but i just don't seem to like it. I started on the original Dota and loved it, then played HoN, then League. I've logged about 30 hours in Dota 2, but i just can't get into it. Even when i'm winning i would just prefer to be playing League. It's disappointing to me because i like the item/free to play system of Dota, but i think i just prefer League. I find myself having more fun in games like League or Dawngate. I might sometime just force myself to play Dota for a week instead of League and see if it grows on me.
 

Goddard

Member
post-31074-J-Jonah-Jameson-laughing-gif-S-NWLY.gif


But I digress.

On topic: I played SMITE for a few matches and thought it was okay, but still not actiony enough for me.
I meant the communities, not the players, lol.

Also, the thread title change is good, you weren't going to get much of a melting pot off of the original OP.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Uh huh. And when the game doesn't tell you which character is a support/healer and which isn't? What do you do then? I don't love multiplayer games but when I do play them I'm almost ALWAYS the healer. I'm the medic in TF2. I'm the dwarf priest in WoW. I'm the cleric in D&D. But in HON...every character was just a name.

Well, Dota does label characters as support/carry at least. Also, I would just say fuck HoN at this point.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
The support role in League is kind of more active. You don't really have time to read too much.

Technically speaking, the "thing over your head" would have a debuff that tells you exactly what it does if you mouse over it, and it would display the duration as well. Most debuffs have pretty clear effects, and the burst that enemies are capable of is usually fairly obvious. The same goes for a shield the enemy would use. If you see it once you suddenly know what it does, and regular ability use is common in League, with each being less threatening for a player to test by coming into contact with.
Taking 1-2 seconds to read 1.75/2/2.25/2.5 for stun duration and have the range displayed is enough. There are plenty of those times in either game.

Burst being fairly obvious is how?

My issue is the the debuff has to be applied to me first and most CC in League are just 1-2 seconds.
Take Tusk (Can trap you) or Veno (Level 1 50% slow) in Dota. I don't know if those abilities scale or not. I don't know how they scale (CD, DMG, CC, Range) until they hit me and I have to die (?) before I can hover over them if it was LoL. It also bothers me I have to have a point on my own hero to learn how their skills scale, and that it doesn't display their mana cost on the HUD.

You have to get hit by 100+ characters, many of which might only see in your lane for 10 minutes out of 1000 Hours (Mid/Jungler rotations). It's harder to learn what heroes do in LoL and I found that extremely surprising.

From a learning how to play and learning the heroes in game I believe that the in game skill and item guides, along with being able to hover abilities (and the extra alt. key explanations) make it easier to learn even if the game has more mechanics.
My main issue in Dota was not learning how to play my hero to an okay level, it was learning how not die to the enemy.

I think it's a big thing that doesn't get brought up enough, but at least the free rotation can help with limiting your learning matchups.
I've tried to get into Dota 2, but i just don't seem to like it. I started on the original Dota and loved it, then played HoN, then League. I've logged about 30 hours in Dota 2, but i just can't get into it. Even when i'm winning i would just prefer to be playing League. It's disappointing to me because i like the item/free to play system of Dota, but i think i just prefer League. I find myself having more fun in games like League or Dawngate. I might sometime just force myself to play Dota for a week instead of League and see if it grows on me.
Maybe try a hero closer to your position you play in LoL? Or a different game mode?

I take long breaks from Dota pretty often (mostly because I watch so much). Recently having fun with WK builds.
Mobas wat the, these kinds of games seem really too complicated
There are a lot of layers, but you don't need to know or unravel all of them at the start.
Sometimes just using a skillset on a character or their ultimate is enough to enjoy the match and have an impact.

For me it's a big part of learning to enjoy a game and its systems.
 
Mobas wat the, these kinds of games seem really too complicated

They grew within a small and dedicated community that built them up brick by brick. They will seem complicated to anyone on the outside looking in. Once you get in there and break it apart a bit at a time you start to piece it together and it's not so bad.

Don't get me wrong, they can be complicated, but it makes sense when you spend a lot of time with one and you start to appreciate it more once you learn.

It's the reason you can play them for 1000s of hours and not get bored. There are always more layers and more things to improve on.
 
I played hundreds of hours of DotA on WCIII... then kind of forgot about the genre. All of the communities seem so toxic that I don't even want to jump back in.
 
The chart on the first page just reminds me how much I miss AoS maps in WC3... Heroes of the Storm looks a lot more like AoS with it's simplified gaming mechanics (don't have to worry about gold and min/maxing items) and only wish I could be playing it. I wants it so bad.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Worst mutliplayer genre ever invented by far... and yet Heroes of the Storm might actually make it enjoyable. Can Blizzard pull off a miracle and turn this ship around? We shall see.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
I played hundreds of hours of DotA on WCIII... then kind of forgot about the genre. All of the communities seem so toxic that I don't even want to jump back in.
Depends on your own attitude IMO. I have over 400 games and my experience has been extremely positive. Shockingly positive.

I've had 1 bad apple (in a co-op bot game no less) who I reported and they immediately got low-priority / muted.
1 person who got too upset and I had to mute.
2 silly dumb people who I reported for getting too mad at someone else on our team and told the guy that it was fine and gave them other things to focus on.

That's just 1% of matches and sub 1% of game time. I find chatting a bit or going on mic early before anything goes bad to be helpful. It's a team game so I try to keep communication up and I think it can go a long way to making any games played have a much better experience.
Worst mutliplayer genre ever invented by far... and yet Heroes of the Storm might actually make it enjoyable. Can Blizzard pull off a miracle and turn this ship around? We shall see.
I don't have high hopes at all. It's extremely toned down and the high level meta will focus almost entirely on objectives and EXP farm given how level advantage is where power comes from. No items or gold removes a giant part of how these games are played. It's also very slow.

But I will play as a Seige Tank and that rat Aba-whatever slug hero so I'll give it a shot.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hazaro kind of has a point. If I'm laning against Lion or something, I know exactly what his kill range is at level 6 and the HP pool I need to be at in order to avoid getting instagibbed. The fact that a lot of hero skills follow the typical "75-150-225-300" damage scaling helps a lot with this. You can crunch the numbers fairly easily and quickly once you get some experience in the game. Not once have I ever tried doing this for League, however, because there were just too many variables. Stat scaling, physical damage vs armor, magic damage vs magic resist, a lot of spells happening in "two phases" like Leblanc's shit. And there are so many skills that deal bonus damage as a % of max HP, or are attached to auto attacks.

That said, it was never a serious problem because outside of a few heroes like Annie, and LeBlance, you couldn't really be bursted down from 100-0 thanks to lower impact skills, Flash, Heal, Runes, etc. Occasionally I would calculate the amount of damage my Ignite would deal at any given level but that was it. Not the same in DOTA2. If you're laning against, like, VS and Sven, and they're at level 5, you know they will do 375 in Magic damage right off the bat, so you subtract that from your own HP and you can roughly gauge if you can afford to stay in lane or if you have to go back to base to heal.

In my head, all League skills say "do damage", whereas with DOTA2, I can actually calculate a portion of that damage with high accuracy and consistency. That being said, I feel like this kind of play is pretty advanced, and most players won't be affected by the obtuseness of League's scaling damage because it's never occurred to them to think of skills as discrete amounts of damage.
 

Boken

Banned
Hazaro kind of has a point. If I'm laning against Lion or something, I know exactly what his kill range is at level 6 and the HP pool I need to be at in order to avoid getting instagibbed. The fact that a lot of hero skills follow the typical "75-150-225-300" damage scaling helps a lot with this. You can crunch the numbers fairly easily and quickly once you get some experience in the game. Not once have I ever tried doing this for League, however, because there were just too many variables. Stat scaling, physical damage vs armor, magic damage vs magic resist, a lot of spells happening in "two phases" like Leblanc's shit. And there are so many skills that deal bonus damage as a % of max HP, or are attached to auto attacks.

That said, it was never a serious problem because outside of a few heroes like Annie, and LeBlance, you couldn't really be bursted down from 100-0 thanks to lower impact skills, Flash, Heal, Runes, etc. Occasionally I would calculate the amount of damage my Ignite would deal at any given level but that was it. Not the same in DOTA2. If you're laning against, like, VS and Sven, and they're at level 5, you know they will do 375 in Magic damage right off the bat, so you subtract that from your own HP and you can roughly gauge if you can afford to stay in lane or if you have to go back to base to heal.

In my head, all League skills say "do damage", whereas with DOTA2, I can actually calculate a portion of that damage with high accuracy and consistency. That being said, I feel like this kind of play is pretty advanced, and most players won't be affected by the obtuseness of League's scaling damage because it's never occurred to them to think of skills as discrete amounts of damage.
dota2's ui is definitely more complete than leegs. unforunately, its also legacy huge

in lol, the damage calculation does happen at the highest levels though, which is amazing in itself.

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, at least for me.



Still doing better than Infinite Crisis @ 59 viewers, haha.

And they've bought front page on twitch for plenty of days now too.

guys please no hate
just love
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
That being said, I feel like this kind of play is pretty advanced, and most players won't be affected by the obtuseness of League's scaling damage because it's never occurred to them to think of skills as discrete amounts of damage.
I played Dota first which is why it probably bothered me so much.
It also doesn't help me know my own kill potential so I just started diving to learn if I could kill or not :[
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Diving is not fun, ergo, no diving allowed.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
At least 10 times more ded than League.

Oh some tournament is on, that's cheating. I like that Syndra is viable now. Definitely my favorite waifu before I uninstalled.
 

Armaros

Member
At least 10 times more ded than League.

Oh some tournament is on, that's cheating. I like that Syndra is viable now. Definitely my favorite waifu before I uninstalled.

Dota's big streamers also don't stream every day(or close to it) unlike league.

Only Dendi and Singsing put out the big viewer numbers for no. Tounaments.
 

Boken

Banned
Diving is not fun, ergo, no diving allowed.

Going from Dota to LoL and trying to dive is super painful.

Yeah towers kill you.
Dota: Protect the Towers
LoL: Towers protect you

steve ur better than this

its just different designs. theres absolutely nothing you can do against diving in LoL while in dota, teleports are a constant threat

to reflect that, diving is supposed to be harder in LoL. think of it this way - in Dota, the defenders have to 'be more skilled' and respond accordingly, and in LoL, the divers have to be the skilled ones and juggle tower aggro properly
 

Oxirane

Member
I played a bit of Demigod a while ago and enjoyed it.

Do any of these other games have a skill tree system for active and passive abilities like Demigod?
 

Proven

Member
That's just 1% of matches and sub 1% of game time. I find chatting a bit or going on mic early before anything goes bad to be helpful. It's a team game so I try to keep communication up and I think it can go a long way to making any games played have a much better experience.

You know, someone made a thread about why voice chat is so terrible in online games a couple weeks back, and I mentioned that things weren't always so horrible on consoles. I think it's because of the fact I usually spoke up first and set the tone of the conversation. If the first person talking is trying to be helpful, it often does start a domino effect. I noticed the same thing happen in Titanfall when I played during the PC beta.
 

Card Boy

Banned
I'm just glad Super Monday Night Combat bombed badly. Uber Entertainment shat on their original MNC fanbase hard with that game, it was fucken insulting.
 
I played a bit of Demigod a while ago and enjoyed it.

Do any of these other games have a skill tree system for active and passive abilities like Demigod?

Heroes of the Storm seems to be the closest to it. It has to be a pain in the ass to balance so I can see why it wouldn't be terribly represented.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411154
steve ur better than this

its just different designs. theres absolutely nothing you can do against diving in LoL while in dota, teleports are a constant threat

to reflect that, diving is supposed to be harder in LoL. think of it this way - in Dota, the defenders have to 'be more skilled' and respond accordingly, and in LoL, the divers have to be the skilled ones and juggle tower aggro properly
No one said if it's good or bad, it's just different.
 

Proven

Member
I'm just glad Super Monday Night Combat bombed badly. Uber Entertainment shat on their original MNC fanbase hard with that game, it was fucken insulting.

I feel like the Bitcoin mining added to the Super Monday Night Combat client might have been a little worse. Subjective, I know.

Oh well, we'll see how things go for them and Planetary Annihilation. They were founded by veteran RTS devs after all.
 
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