The history of that actually is pretty interesting and the legal battle continues to this day
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ESPN OTL: Pete Rose bet on baseball while he was a player
- Thread starter jbug617
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The history of that actually is pretty interesting and the legal battle continues to this day
Squirrel Killer
Member
Really? I'm a lifelong Reds and Pete Rose fan and this is one aspect of this story that I've never had the courage to look deeper in to, afraid of what I might find. Aside from Rose's claims (he's demonstrated himself to be thoroughly untrustworthy,) is there any evidence that he bet against his team (either while a player or a manager?)
The Albatross
Member
Sports betting itself isn't bad, but if you are a deciding factor in the outcome of a sport, you shouldn't be able to bet on it. It's providing a major incentive to, say, throw a game. Not even from a legality point of view, but from the point of view of the league, they do not want their players (owners, coaches, etc) having the ability to bet on something that they have power to contribute to.
No. Betting on yourself shouldn't even be an issue IMO.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Nothing I'm sure. But we'll never get to a point where players/coaches/refs/etc...can bet on the sports they are a part of. It just doesn't make sense to allow it. Way too many variables.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
*6 months later*
"So he threw a couple of games. It's not like he cost them a championship or anything. "
Edit: at this point it's principle. If you let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame, it would be like Homer allowing Bart to see Itchy & Scratchy the movie. You have to put your foot down or you risk an entire generation of players not taking you seriously over these kinds of things. Sort of like how the witch hunt over Canseco/Bonds/Maguire slowed down the blatant juicing and brought the home run numbers back to a realistic level.
johnnyfive
Banned
Open up a new wing in Cooperstown, the Hall of Infamy.
Put him and all the other gamblers and cheaters and enchancers there.
They get their proper immortality. Problem solved.
Put him and all the other gamblers and cheaters and enchancers there.
They get their proper immortality. Problem solved.
Right. If anything, it will just make you try harder...
This will very likely keep Pete Rose from ever entering the Hall of Fame while still alive, and honestly it should.
Considering how much of a liar Pete Rose is, I think it's only a matter of time until it's revealed that he did bet against himself.
Considering how much of a liar Pete Rose is, I think it's only a matter of time until it's revealed that he did bet against himself.
That's my thought basically
terrisus
Member
You might do things to win that one specific game which would have a detrimental impact on other games.
For instance, if a pitcher bet on himself to win a game, and 4 innings in felt something in his elbow, he might not say anything and keep pitching a few more innings, only to find out after the game he tore something and needs season-ending surgery.
I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with the whole Pete Rose issue.
But, the fact that people can't see negative impacts of betting for oneself/one's team is very shortsighted and unaware.
As manager you can tank the team until the odds are favorable and then bet. There is no way to separate the two
It would be different if he never bet on games involving his team at all, but he did.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Yeah, I think betting as the manager is more egregious than betting as a position player. You have much more control over the outcomes.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Pete Rose is an addict. We're gonna act like we can trust his word that he never bet on himself? We're also gonna trust that we can enable future addicts to only bet on themselves and not throw games? There is a reason this is the one rule that baseball has posted in every clubhouse. It's a dangerous road to go down and it can destroy the integrity of a sport.
The Albatross
Member
Let's say that betting on yourself is fine, and you bet on yourself in 3 straight games, and you win those bets... Good on you, right? But then you don't bet that 4th time. Is there a reason for it? Are you hurt? Do you know something that the general public, the team, the league, etc., does not know? Maybe it's not that you're betting on yourself, but you know that the manager isn't going to be starting a certain player, or somebody isn't well enough to play, or any other factor that leads to a conflict of interest. An extension of that, how about you play poorly for 3 straight games to inflate the odds against you to a bookie, and then bet on yourself... Sure, you're only betting on yourself in that one case, but in the 3 previous games you've been tanking to give you those odds. Or, how about you have an injury and you're out for a couple weeks, and the week you're set to come back, you give press interviews that you're not 100%, still feeling the effects of the injury, and so you bet on yourself knowing that you're 100% and many people bet against you earlier in the week given your interviews.
And, plus, we're acting on the idea that these guys are always going to do the right thing... That they have scruples and are on the up-and-up. That's just not true, and Pete Rose's case is as good as any to point that out... He's been caught so many times in his own lies, it's evidence enough.
There's just too much of a conflict of interests and too much at stake to allow it -- if you're a league/organization. Let's be honest, too, bookies aren't typically the most scrupulous of people either.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Bingo.
ahhh so that's what has changed
I'm sure if you promise him a blowjob and an ice cream cone after wins, he'll try that much harder. Because the only motivation professional sports players are lacking is having to pay a bookie if they have a bad game.
Perhaps betting on your team or making prop bets on yourself might now be so bad in a vacuum, but if you let Pete Rose do it, you have to let everyone do it. Keeping up with all that would be a logistical and financial nightmare, because a significant source of income and/or debt would be incurred by the players outside of the sports' governing body, yet still directly impacting the sport itself on multiple levels.
Better to pay the players well and keep the books balanced in house.
Considering all the shit that goes on in sports, they should elt him in.
Thought they married?
Thought they married?
Gentleman Jack
Member
Just a gut feeling, but I reckon this exact behavior is already strongly reinforced by the way bonuses are structured in pro contracts. Play until your body breaks, you got a quota to fulfill.
I get now that betting can corrupt fair play on the field, but I don't think this is an unsolvable problem. I agree that until sports betting is legal in every state/province the MLB has markets in that it would be impossible to properly regulate gambling by their employees.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Let's say the team has a man on third with one out and needs a sac fly to score.
Let's say the player only needs an infield single this inning to win his wager on himself.
That's not a conflict of interest?
terrisus
Member
Those are at least season-long, and not game specific (and, in general, they can't be performance/results-based)
As a Reds fan he is still unquestionably one of my favorite players ever. But I would never want to see him involved in an MLB club in any kind of capacity. The dude had/has a gambling problem, one that hopefully he has/will get help for.
Whether or not I'd like to see him in the Hall is another thing. He knowingly broke the rules extensively. His stats and playing speak for themselves. Regardless of whether he's in the hall or not, he won't be forgotten for that reason alone. No one questions that part about him.
Whether or not I'd like to see him in the Hall is another thing. He knowingly broke the rules extensively. His stats and playing speak for themselves. Regardless of whether he's in the hall or not, he won't be forgotten for that reason alone. No one questions that part about him.
I'll agree that it's definitely wrong. But why does that prevent him from getting in the Hall? The pitchers he faced weren't in on the betting. He holds way too many records.
He was caught breaking a pretty major rule, was banned from baseball for it, and there's no telling how much his gambling problems could have affected games. That's why it should prevent him from being in the hall. Him lying about everything ever since his ban did him absolutely no favors, either.
His records and legacy on the game are undeniable, but the guy broke the rules.
should still be in the HOF.
Dumbass made dumbass choices. It doesn't take away anything from his brilliance as a baseball player and the number of records he achieved. I would argue differently for doping charges since that unfairly changes innate ability. Gambling doesn't affect his in-game achievements
Dumbass made dumbass choices. It doesn't take away anything from his brilliance as a baseball player and the number of records he achieved. I would argue differently for doping charges since that unfairly changes innate ability. Gambling doesn't affect his in-game achievements
Chairman85
Member
This particular conflict of interests always exists in an individual sport masquerading as a team sport.
further cementing why baseball sucks shit
the best baseball players of all time aren't even recognized
It just seems crazy to me. If it was found out that Wayne Gretzky bet on hockey, there is no way he'd get booted from the hall. Best hitter of all time should be recognized as being such. He's banned from baseball, so that's more than enough.
The Albatross
Member
I was just explaining why betting on the sport you're playing in is wrong.
That said, it prevents him from getting into the Hall of Fame because the organization that votes for players getting into the Hall of Fame cares about things like 'rules' and that basically the #1 rule in organized baseball, since 1919, has been "don't bet on games."
As much as I don't like Bonds, he belongs in the HOF before Rose does. Bonds never broke the rules (or at least was never properly caught). Rose did and was caught and over the years has done nothing but basically dig his own grave in terms of getting into the HOF
Different sport, different governing body, different rules/judgement calls. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's apples and oranges. Instead imagine if someone like Greg Maddux or Nolan Ryan came out and said he bet on baseball, I honestly think he'd get booted out of the hall.
BobTheFork
Member
PEte sure has made it hard to support him.
Don't EVER undo his ban from the game. He;s done nothing but lie and lie since then. He's has never done anything to make it better. He 'admitted' the truth about betting on his own games in an attempt to get sympathy after telling a lie for 20 years. Hey guess what, he lied about this too.
If he had just admitted EVERYTHING when it happened, this would be over by now. But he just keeps telling an old, old lie and never really came clean.
I like Pete but his 'redemption' has been purely self serving
Don't EVER undo his ban from the game. He;s done nothing but lie and lie since then. He's has never done anything to make it better. He 'admitted' the truth about betting on his own games in an attempt to get sympathy after telling a lie for 20 years. Hey guess what, he lied about this too.
If he had just admitted EVERYTHING when it happened, this would be over by now. But he just keeps telling an old, old lie and never really came clean.
I like Pete but his 'redemption' has been purely self serving
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Clemens won 7 Cy Young's and also isn't making the Hall. I'd feel less bad about Bonds, Clemens, and ARod making the hall than I would about Rose.
terrisus
Member
Yes, despite many reasons that many people feel he shouldn't be in there, the "best hitter of all time" is in the Hall of Fame.
Ty Cobb
The greatest hitter who ever lived is in there without any question as well.
Ted Williams
The BBWAA's tendency to use HOF votes to extend extrajudicial punishment and air personal grievances is dumb but that problem goes way beyond Pete Rose. That said, Pete Rose should not be allowed into the HOF because he is still banned from the sport. He shouldn't be reinstated because he still hasn't even come clean. If he were someday reinstated I think he should be allowed into the HOF
The fact that he applied to be reinstated this year while continuing to lie about the circumstances really makes it hard to have much sympathy for him. I'd be surprised if he is reinstated while still alive at this point
The fact that he applied to be reinstated this year while continuing to lie about the circumstances really makes it hard to have much sympathy for him. I'd be surprised if he is reinstated while still alive at this point
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Just going to make a mental note of all who want to put Pete in the hall of fame but want to ban all alleged or known steroid users.
To go along with what others have said; if someone is in a lot of gambling debt the potential is there for him to be forced to bet against his team and throw the game. That thought is terrifying to commissioners.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
I'm not feeling good today. I'm gonna put money on the other team because they should be able to perform bettter.
Gambling is illegal in almost all of the US. Which means you have to gamble with potentially dangerous elements such as the Mafia (in Pete Rose case). If you get in debt with those people they can have a lot of control/influence over you.
Gambling at all is bad enough but betting on your own team brings all sorts of things into question. The guy has to be a fiendish addict
Sequence Six
Member
When you played there was one rule, Pete.
ONE RULE
ONE RULE
Netherscourge
Banned
This was a forgone conclusion.
He gambled on baseball while playing AND while managing.
What I want to know is if he gambled against his own teams and used his managerial or player influence to tank games so that his teams would lose - resulting in him winning money.
If he intentionally tanked his own team, either by making lousy decisions as a manager (pulling good pitchers too early, leaving bad pitchers in too long, adjusting lineup to be unfavorable, etc...) or by dogging it as a player, in order to win gambling bets against his own team, then he IS pure garbage.
He is no better than the steroid creeps in my opinion.
He can go back to the WWE and let the Undertaker Pile Drive him at Wrestlemania again for his yearly Vince McMahon handout.
He gambled on baseball while playing AND while managing.
What I want to know is if he gambled against his own teams and used his managerial or player influence to tank games so that his teams would lose - resulting in him winning money.
If he intentionally tanked his own team, either by making lousy decisions as a manager (pulling good pitchers too early, leaving bad pitchers in too long, adjusting lineup to be unfavorable, etc...) or by dogging it as a player, in order to win gambling bets against his own team, then he IS pure garbage.
He is no better than the steroid creeps in my opinion.
He can go back to the WWE and let the Undertaker Pile Drive him at Wrestlemania again for his yearly Vince McMahon handout.
Fourth Stooge
Banned
There comes a time for forgiveness.
An old man will get his plaque on a wall and he'll make a speech. People will celebrate what was and remember what was not. Any punishment has long been fulfilled. Any messages to other players have been sent.
There's no point in punishing a man until he's in his grave.
An old man will get his plaque on a wall and he'll make a speech. People will celebrate what was and remember what was not. Any punishment has long been fulfilled. Any messages to other players have been sent.
There's no point in punishing a man until he's in his grave.
Put me into the 'put him in the hall, betting on yourself is a minor infraction' camp.
PEDs are a blight and a disgrace. Betting on yourself is rightly banned, but ultimately who the fuck cares? Every athlete would bet on themselves if they could, that's the natural confidence and risk-taking of an elite sportsman in action.
EDIT: If he ever, once, bet against himself or his team then a ban forever is fair enough.
PEDs are a blight and a disgrace. Betting on yourself is rightly banned, but ultimately who the fuck cares? Every athlete would bet on themselves if they could, that's the natural confidence and risk-taking of an elite sportsman in action.
EDIT: If he ever, once, bet against himself or his team then a ban forever is fair enough.
The key thing about this, is he didn't bet AGAINST himself. So I have no problem with this. Put him in the HOF as the most hits ever, make a note he gambled on baseball, don't include him in any of the HOF ceremonies. Problem fixed.
Baseball writers are assholes who couldn't make a team, so they judge everything like assholes. None of these writers have faults? None have cheated on their wives, done drugs, or gone gambling? I highly doubt that. If they have such high standards for what is supposed to be the best ever, their standards should be just as high in order to vote.
I know Bob Ryan has a vote in who gets into the baseball HOF, and he condones violence against women. Surely the voters should be held to a high regard too?
Baseball writers are assholes who couldn't make a team, so they judge everything like assholes. None of these writers have faults? None have cheated on their wives, done drugs, or gone gambling? I highly doubt that. If they have such high standards for what is supposed to be the best ever, their standards should be just as high in order to vote.
I know Bob Ryan has a vote in who gets into the baseball HOF, and he condones violence against women. Surely the voters should be held to a high regard too?
Beer Monkey
Member
Let's be honest. He was banned because he embarrassed baseball and he's still banned because he keeps doing it.
When he's dead and the other shoes stop dropping he'll be inducted.
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