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[Surfinn]

She was upset about killing, doesn't mean she wasn't going to be prepared to kill to survive. If anything, Carol isn't stupid. As she said in the note, the reason she left was to leave behind the influences that would make her kill more and more, aka protecting her new family.

So the solution is to sew a damn uzi inside of your sleeve and increase your chances of killing by 100% driving on a main road with plenty of open space in a car that looks like it was designed for Fury Road? She knows Negan's army is crawling all over the place looking for who murdered a bunch of their people and chooses THIS as her path to avoid killing..?

Not following the logic here. She's a smart character who is being written into the ground with ridiculous and moronic decision making.

 

[More_Badass]

The times when she has showed emotion in the past were when her actions affected other people. She felt guilty about Tyrese, she treated Lizzie as a surrogate daughter, and she felt bad about having to kill a woman in her community. Those always felt like honest emotional moments because even though she's a stone cold killer, she is also very loving towards those she considers family.

But she's never showed regret for killing to defend herself or her community. For most of the series she's been more cold-blooded than Rick. I mean she was teaching eight year-olds how to shoot guns and wield knives.

I mean, that's the point. That's terrifying to her, because she saw where that path could lead her. And she did show that she was affected after killing the wolves

 

[eyeball_kid]

It was a MAC-11. They're pretty small.

The gun sounded almost like a miniature gatling gun; you could hear it spinning down after she'd stopped firing. I know the MAC-11 has a really high rate of fire, but does it sound like that? (Also, where'd she find such an oddball gun? Did they go back and clean out the Saviors' armory later?)

edit: speaking of guns, Michonne has got to start bringing a gun on these trips. Her sword has been useless when encountering groups.

I mean, that's the point. That's terrifying to her, because she saw where that path could lead her. And she did show that she was affected after killing the wolves

She murdered two people at the prison, one being Tyrese's girlfriend! She's not on a path, she's already at the destination. She made her peace with her decisions at the time; to lament that now makes no sense from the character we've seen.

 

[Surfinn]

She murdered two people at the prison, one being Tyrese's girlfriend! She's not on a path, she's already at the destination. She made her peace with her decisions at the time; to lament that now makes no sense from the character we've seen.

This, exactly. It feels so awkward and forced because she's already BECOME this person she's now apparently so afraid of. She's been there for a long time. Which makes everything feel so forced.

Morgan already fits the bill for this character path; we absolutely did NOT need Carol following the same development and now it's completely redundant. She should have continued to contrast Morgan and one of them should have died (Morgan) as a result of their confrontation at Alexandria. That's when Carol's character development really came undone.

 

[MK_768]

It makes total sense to feel remorse for murdering a child, and it makes sense that she'd feel extreme guilt living beside the person she indirectly and negatively impacted by her decision to kill two people, one who was extremely close with Tyreese. She didn't seem to feel much remorse about the act itself (remember the conversation she had with Rick about killing them and how it "had to be done") but rather the impact on Tyreese (his belief that she was a good person and was helping him get through a terrible tragedy). Again, I never said she feels no remorse about anything she does but she had absolutely no problem initiating a premeditated murdering spree in Terminus and hiding her identity to kill invading wolves.

She was upset that she had to kill more people, which makes ABSOLUTELY no sense, considering she went out prepared to kill again (sewed a gun inside of her jacket).

Again, this is just flat out poor writing. At least make her sneak around in the forest with no intention of killing again instead of going on a suicide mission down main street with the most obvious "look at me, I'm an escaping survivor" indication you could possibly give.

She had a better chance not killing again just by simply staying in Alexandria. Instead, she murders a few people, what, in a matter of minutes - an hour of leaving? It's just bizarre.

Really? What would you do? Also, maybe she went out there with a gun to protect herself lol. Is it that hard to understand...

 

[Alpende]

The gun sounded almost like a miniature gatling gun; you could hear it spinning down after she'd stopped firing. I know the MAC-11 has a really high rate of fire, but does it sound like that? (Also, where'd she find such an oddball gun? Did they go back and clean out the Saviors' armory later?)

The type of guns they have always surprise me. It looks like they got some high end shit in their arsenal. They never(?) show (apart from Negan's outpost armory) where they got them from so we just have to accept it.

 

[Surfinn]

Really? What would you do? Also, maybe she went out there with a gun to protect herself lol. Is it that hard to understand...

Combined with her decision to leave and her confrontation on the road with her "look at me I'm escaping" vehicle, yes, it was really stupid. I don't blame her for arming herself but she should have just been packing an automatic rifle instead of premeditating a plan to surprise the first person she came across and murder them. And possibly chosen a path that wasn't going to obviously bring her straight to Negan's advancing army like an idiot?

Unless you can explain these decisions to me?

 

[hey_monkey]

Y'all, there is no zombie baby. Quit jumping to wild conclusions. Maggie is AT MOST maybe four months pregnant. Also, you can also have severe cramping and bleeding and not even have a miscarriage, but just a scare. (source: have given birth to children, have experienced a difficult pregnancy)

 

[Lord_Byron28]

So the solution is to sew a damn uzi inside of your sleeve and increase your chances of killing by 100% driving on a main road with plenty of open space in a car that looks like it was designed for Fury Road? She knows Negan's army is crawling all over the place looking for who murdered a bunch of their people and chooses THIS as her path to avoid killing..?

Not following the logic here. She's a smart character who is being written into the ground with ridiculous and moronic decision making.

Given the time that they have been at Alexandria, I don't think they have had much indication as to how large Negan's group is. None of them seem to be terribly concerned that they just attacked one major facility thinking it was their only base to discover they have multiple camps in the area. It doesn't seem like they understand that all they did was poke the beehive not destroy it. That is widespread through all of the characters decisions.

She murdered two people at the prison, one being Tyrese's girlfriend! She's not on a path, she's already at the destination. She made her peace with her decisions at the time; to lament that now makes no sense from the character we've seen.

I think Alexandria has been the first time since the beginning of the show that Carol (and others) have been able to let their guard down and not always have survival at the forefront on their mind. I think this is the first time Carol has had time to really reflect on her actions as well as be part of society again.

 

[Surfinn]

Given the time that they have been at Alexandria, I don't think they have had much indication as to how large Negan's group is. None of them seem to be terribly concerned that they just attacked one major facility thinking it was their only base to discover they have multiple camps in the area. It doesn't seem like they understand that all they did was poke the beehive not destroy it. That is widespread through all of the characters decisions.

I think Alexandria has been the first time since the beginning of the show that Carol (and others) have been able to let their guard down and not always have survival at the forefront on their mind. I think this is the first time Carol has had time to really reflect on her actions as well as be part of society again.

I'm pretty sure she knows that Denise was just murdered and there was a shootout between Alexandrians and another group in a nearby forest? She knows it's not safe, and especially not safe to just barrel down the middle of an open road away from Alexandria with no real plan or destination. It was a stupid decision.

And in the same sense, it was just as stupid for everyone at Alexandria to split up and head in various directions in low numbers; it was the dumbest possible move at that time (especially when they know people escaped in a nearby shootout that left their only doctor dead).

 

[More_Badass]

I'm pretty sure she knows that Denise was just murdered and there was a shootout between Alexandrians and another group in a nearby forest? She knows it's not safe, and especially not safe to just barrel down the middle of an open road away from Alexandria with no real plan or destination. It was a stupid decision.

People make stupid decisions. Carol isn't infallible

 

[MK_768]

Combined with her decision to leave and her confrontation on the road with her "look at me I'm escaping" vehicle, yes, it was really stupid. I don't blame her for arming herself but she should have just been packing an automatic rifle instead of premeditating a plan to surprise the first person she came across and murder them. And possibly chosen a path that wasn't going to obviously bring her straight to Negan's advancing army like an idiot?

Unless you can explain these decisions to me?

If she just packed an auto rifle that wasn't hidden...she'd be dead or those Saviors would've made it to Alexandria.. Her way was playing it safe just in case she was attacked like she was. I mean you are grasping here to criticize her because she "surprised" the people who shot at her lol.

She didn't premeditate to kill. She premeditated to defend.

Her decision to leave wasn't smart, but she's having a crisis of sorts. Therefore, it's understandable to me.

Given the time that they have been at Alexandria, I don't think they have had much indication as to how large Negan's group is. None of them seem to be terribly concerned that they just attacked one major facility thinking it was their only base to discover they have multiple camps in the area. It doesn't seem like they understand that all they did was poke the beehive not destroy it. That is widespread through all of the characters decisions.

I think Alexandria has been the first time since the beginning of the show that Carol (and others) have been able to let their guard down and not always have survival at the forefront on their mind. I think this is the first time Carol has had time to really reflect on her actions as well as be part of society again.

Agreed. We know that Negan's group is large, but they don't. So it would make sense to us that their decisions are much dumber than they actually are. Nevertheless, they are still dumb.

 

[RangerBAD]

Maggie's pains are just there to add tension to Glenn's "I have to get back home no matter what" scenario. I don't think she'll miscarry.

I'm pretty sure she knows that Denise was just murdered and there was a shootout between Alexandrians and another group in a nearby forest? She knows it's not safe, and especially not safe to just barrel down the middle of an open road away from Alexandria with no real plan or destination. It was a stupid decision.

And in the same sense, it was just as stupid for everyone at Alexandria to split up and head in various directions in low numbers; it was the dumbest possible move at that time (especially when they know people escaped in a nearby shootout that left their only doctor dead).

It feels like Carol very intentionally passed by the Saviors. She saw them and kept going. I feel like she's actually looking for Negan as to just to kill him from the inside of the Saviors.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This is referencing reactions I've seen outside of this forum but: I find it odd how some people are still defending Rick (and attacking Morgan for stopping him) after he nearly shot that guy in the back. The burden of proof he requires before deciding to kill someone is gradually declining, which is really disturbing to me.

Maggie's pains are just there to add tension to Glenn's "I have to get back home no matter what" scenario. I don't think she'll miscarry.



It feels like Carol very intentionally passed by the Saviors. She saw them and kept going. I feel like she's actually looking for Negan as to just to kill him from the inside of the Saviors.

She was almost having a panic attack with the saviors in this episode. What makes you think she's deliberately going against what we've seen in past episodes?

If anything her trying to drive past the saviors reinforces the idea that she's trying to avoid killing where possible.

 

[Surfinn]

People make stupid decisions. Carol isn't infallible

No, this is just an excuse for blatantly horrible writing. Alexandrians make stupid decisions because they have no survival experience. It's not in alignment with Carol's development to make such a bad decision, especially after she apparently planned this the night/days before. What was her plan? To drive on the road until she killed someone with her uzi? Then what? Where is she going? She knows, either way, she's going to have to kill to survive, so it makes no difference if she's doing it on her own or at Alexandria. She's got no plan and no real intentions other than simply leaving, which is really silly for a character with her experience.

If she just packed an auto rifle that wasn't hidden...she'd be dead or those Saviors would've made it to Alexandria.. Her way was playing it safe just in case she was attacked like she was. I mean you are grasping here to criticize her because she "surprised" the people who shot at her lol.

She didn't premeditate to kill. She premeditated to defend.

Her decision to leave wasn't smart, but she's having a crisis of sorts. Therefore, it's understandable to me.

The only reason the whole sleeve thing was even written was for this specific confrontation on the road. It was written in for dramatic effect. There's no way a competent army would have let a single person mow down multiple people in plain sight (yeah yeah, their guard was down because she was crying). The fact that she's even able to hit anything is pretty silly in itself, let alone essentially kill/incapacitate all of them without a scratch.

Premeditating killing and defending are the same damn thing when you're packing an uzi up your sleeve. Which is the exact reason she wanted to LEAVE, so she wouldn't have to kill the living. Yet no more than minutes after she leaves she's mowing people down with an uzi driving down the road. It's just really oddly written.

 

[More_Badass]

This is referencing reactions I've seen outside of this forum but: I find it odd how some people are still defending Rick (and attacking Morgan for stopping him) after he nearly shot that guy in the back. The burden of proof he requires before deciding to kill someone is gradually declining, which is really disturbing to me.


She was almost having a panic attack with the saviors in this episode. What makes you think she's deliberately going against what we've seen in past episodes?

If anything her trying to drive past the saviors reinforces the idea that she's trying to avoid killing where possible.

The act and the actual feelings are kind of blending IMO. The panic attack wasn't out of fear. She knew she could handle them. And that's why she was acting like that. Perhaps she realized there was no escape, even if she tried to run away from it.

I mean, has no one else seen or read stories about morally conflicted characters who try to escape, only to have the horrible realization that they can't escape who they are and descend further into that pit?

Premeditating killing and defending are the same damn thing when you're packing an uzi up your sleeve. Which is the exact reason she wanted to LEAVE, so she wouldn't have to kill the living. Yet no more than minutes after she leaves she's mowing people down with an uzi driving down the road. It's just really oddly written.

She didn't leave because she didn't want to kill the living. She left because she didn't want to be forced to kill to protect her family. She felt that perhaps leaving those influences behind could be a way out. But it clearly isn't

 

[Surfinn]

I mean, has no one else seen or read stories about morally conflicted characters who try to escape, only to have the horrible realization that they can't escape who they are and descend further into that pit?

Yes, the problem is just that it's poorly/shoddily implemented here. Which is the entire point.

She didn't leave because she didn't want to kill the living. She left because she didn't want to be forced to kill to protect her family. She felt that perhaps leaving those influences behind could be a way out. But it clearly isn't

What's the difference when she's being forced to kill to protect herself? The only difference now is that she's killing alone with no one to trust or care about. I'm failing to see how this is an improvement.

 

[DeviantBoi]

For those that have read the comics: What are the odds on Negan and Lucille's appearance on the TV show happening just like it did in the comics?

 

[MK_768]

No, this is just an excuse for blatantly horrible writing. Alexandrians make stupid decisions because they have no survival experience. It's not in alignment with Carol's development to make such a bad decision, especially after she apparently planned this the night/days before. What was her plan? To drive on the road until she killed someone with her uzi? Then what? Where is she going? She knows, either way, she's going to have to kill to survive, so it makes no difference if she's doing it on her own or at Alexandria. She's got no plan and no real intentions other than simply leaving, which is really silly for a character with her experience.



The only reason the whole sleeve thing was even written was for this specific confrontation on the road. It was written in for dramatic effect. There's no way a competent army would have let a single person mow down multiple people in plain sight (yeah yeah, their guard was down because she was crying). The fact that she's even able to hit anything is pretty silly in itself, let alone essentially kill/incapacitate all of them without a scratch.

Premeditating killing and defending are the same damn thing when you're packing an uzi up your sleeve. Which is the exact reason she wanted to LEAVE, so she wouldn't have to kill the living. Yet no more than minutes after she leaves she's mowing people down with an uzi driving down the road. It's just really oddly written.

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. You're really grasping and seem desperate to stick to your guns so debating about this is a waste.

 

[More_Badass]

It's the endless cycle of death and killing that she's trying to escape

If we survive this threat, it’s not over. Another one will arrive to take its place to take what we have. I love you all here, I do. But I’d have to kill for you and I can’t. I won’t.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The act and the actual feelings are kind of blending IMO. The panic attack wasn't out of fear. She knew she could handle them. And that's why she was acting like that. Perhaps she realized there was no escape, even if she tried to run away from it.

I mean, has no one else seen or read stories about morally conflicted characters who try to escape, only to have the horrible realization that they can't escape who they are and descend further into that pit?


She didn't leave because she didn't want to kill the living. She left because she didn't want to be forced to kill to protect her family. She felt that perhaps leaving those influences behind could be a way out. But it clearly isn't

I wasn't saying she was panicking because she couldn't handle them. I'm saying she knew perfectly well that she could and that if they continued then she'd have to kill them all. THAT is what leads to her state in that scene.

 

[Surfinn]

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree. You're really grasping and seem desperate to stick to your guns so debating about this is a waste.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I'm "grasping and desperate"; there are legitimate criticisms here. Agree to disagree then.

It's the endless cycle of death and killing that she's trying to escape

I'll ask again: how is this any better or even different from what she had before? Literally the only difference is that now there's just no one else around her (and her chances of survival decrease/she loses companionship). She's still killing for her OWN survival (threat after threat, without end), now she's just doing it alone?

She was willing to walk away from it all.. people she trusts, a growing community (and one of the last shots to return to normalcy).. all because she doesn't want to kill for OTHERS yet she'll do it for herself?

That's some funky reasoning.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

She panics before she becomes the monster. the monster we've seen who was calm, collective and murdering other human beings as if they were walkers. .

From what i gathered from the two episodes it highlighted her transition, She wants to keep/save her humanity. I mean she pleaded for them to turn around and go. That no one has to die. She warned them of their death if they didnt. And well, she knew what was going to happen, cried and took more life she didn't really want to, but had to.

 

[hey_monkey]

It's the endless cycle of death and killing that she's trying to escape

YES. Which is part of Rick and co's eternal (so far) cycle here: try something, fail, improve, assume badassery, fail, improve, assume badassery, repeat. Where's the out? What changes? What's ever changed in a lasting way?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

YES. Which is part of Rick and co's eternal (so far) cycle here: try something, fail, improve, assume badassery, fail, improve, assume badassery, repeat. Where's the out? What changes? What's ever changed in a lasting way?

Ever thought that this whole storyline might lead to lasting change?

 

[GavinUK86]

If anyone is interested, probably not because it was rubbish, the entire Flight 462 thing is available now in it's entirety.

http://www.thewalkingdead.com/flight-462/

 

[jwk94]

I think Carol's arc and her leaving points out one of the flaws of TWD: it's just a cycle. as someone else said, the characters essentially go through the same thing in different settings. How do you shake that up? Can you shake that up or would that just be prolonging an aspect of that cycle until something comes that forces going to the next step?

We've seen them spare lives, we've seen them take lives, we've seen them stay in one place, get run out, stay on the road until the next destination. What else is there to do?

 

[More_Badass]

If anyone is interested, probably not because it was rubbish, the entire Flight 462 thing is available now in it's entirety.

http://www.thewalkingdead.com/flight-462/

Got to make more ad space during the finale

 

[hey_monkey]

Ever thought that this whole storyline might lead to lasting change?

I hope and it depends on where the show goes from here. And I'm certainly not saying the cycle is bad or unrealistic; in fact, it's frustrating to me because I think it IS realistic. That people often don't realize when they're out of their depth and there's no measure for the apocalypse. Literally danger around every corner but you can't stay on edge all the time and you can't always foresee completely new situations before they happen.

Comic spoilers:

Spoiler

After All Out War, there are some changes, certainly, some good and some less so. But it's forward motion and that's always interesting.

ETA: I also think part of the clash is that our heroes are torn between looking for ways to rebuild the familiar and figuring out that the world will never be what it was before. Think about it: that's fucking mindblowing. It's not even conceivable, really. So solutions and change are piecemeal, but trying and failing isn't just a matter of stubbing one's toe; if you fuck up in this world, usually people die.

I'm hard on The Walking Dead at times. I get really frustrated with many moments, most particularly things I think they gloss over (at least recently; earlier in the show, it was things that developed far too slowly, like Shane/Rick/Lori triangle, like Sophia, etc.). But I forgive them a little on the cycle because I mean, what do you even do when the world has ended.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Have they announced how they're going to give us (spoilers at the link) the profanity laced version of the finale? Is it just for the Netflix/Blu-ray release or might we be able to watch it the day after or something like that?

 

[GavinUK86]

Have they announced how they're going to give us (spoilers at the link) the profanity laced version of the finale? Is it just for the Netflix/Blu-ray release or might we be able to watch it the day after or something like that?

On the DVD/Bluray release according to Kirkman.

 

[Surfinn]

YES. Which is part of Rick and co's eternal (so far) cycle here: try something, fail, improve, assume badassery, fail, improve, assume badassery, repeat. Where's the out? What changes? What's ever changed in a lasting way?

But what's the answer? She's going to kill and kill again out in the open by herself or she will not survive. Minutes after she leaves Alexandria she murders people with an uzi just getting out the front door. Do we really assume she won't have to do anything like this again or even make a habit out of it just to survive?

She's got no plan or direction. She was better off staying put; not only would she be safer but also have people looking out for her well being. The only thing that changes is now she has less protection and companionship to retain her humanity.

She's still a killer, now she's just alone.

What's the end game? Hope you don't have to use the uzi again?

 

[someday]

I'll ask again: how is this any better or even different from what she had before? Literally the only difference is that now there's just no one else around her (and her chances of survival decrease/she loses companionship). She's still killing for her OWN survival (threat after threat, without end), now she's just doing it alone?

She was willing to walk away from it all.. people she trusts, a growing community (and one of the last shots to return to normalcy).. all because she doesn't want to kill for OTHERS yet she'll do it for herself?

That's some funky reasoning.

I don't necessarily disagree with your feelings about Carol's change but I think there is a huge difference for her in having to kill to survive on her own, and the group's rash decision to jump head first into starting a war with the Saviors. One is defensive and the other is offensive, searching for victims because they can. For this reason alone, I can mostly accept Carol's change of heart.

Honestly, when Rick took the shot at the dude running away, I was appalled. I think Morgan's views are unrealistic in their narrowness but I would rather root for someone like him than where Rick is today. Maybe Carol is just realizing that the world needs more Morgans than Ricks and she is going to extremes to pull herself back. But yeah I'm not really sure what her plan was driving off in that car at this time. Not smart at all but that's on the writers to me and not the character.

 

[eyeball_kid]

I think Alexandria has been the first time since the beginning of the show that Carol (and others) have been able to let their guard down and not always have survival at the forefront on their mind. I think this is the first time Carol has had time to really reflect on her actions as well as be part of society again.

That makes sense, and I don't discount that this kind of realization could happen with Carol, but the way it was written didn't connect the emotional dots. At least not for me. If we had seen this change of heart take place over an entire season – and written with a more deft hand – this transition might have seemed natural for her character.

I'll also agree with Surfinn here that Carol's road trip made no sense pragmatically. Yes she was in emotional distress, but she had enough foresight and clear thinking to pack supplies as well as sewing a machine gun into her jacket. What was her plan? Why was she just cruising down the highway? Remember that this is the woman that assaulted Terminus by herself; she knows how to plan and execute that plan, even under duress (as we saw when she was held hostage). She wasn't so emotionally distraught when she left Alexandria that she just ran to a car and drove down the road.

So I'm starting to think that she may have a different plan in mind. I just realized that the guy she stabbed with the spike on her Jetta was missing when Rick and Morgan showed up. Unless this is a big continuity error, this seems important. Is she interrogating him for information? To find Negan? Did she actually leave to take down the Negan threat instead of having her family turn into the cold-blooded killers that she is?

This is referencing reactions I've seen outside of this forum but: I find it odd how some people are still defending Rick (and attacking Morgan for stopping him) after he nearly shot that guy in the back. The burden of proof he requires before deciding to kill someone is gradually declining, which is really disturbing to me.

That scene seemed immediately allegorical when I watched it – Rick, the former police officer, becoming so desensitized and dehumanized that he wants to shoot someone just because they're running away. And Morgan trying to stop him. It feels like that scene was written and shot that way very purposefully.

 

[-griffy-]

So I'm starting to think that she may have a different plan in mind. I just realized that the guy she stabbed with the spike on her Jetta was missing when Rick and Morgan showed up. Unless this is a big continuity error, this seems important. Is she interrogating him for information? To find Negan? Did she actually leave to take down the Negan threat instead of having her family turn into the cold-blooded killers that she is?

Are you sure he wasn't the one who turned into a walker and was eating the other guy, or the one being eaten, when Rick and Morgan arrived?

 

[eyeball_kid]

Are you sure he wasn't the one who turned into a walker and was eating the other guy, or the one being eaten, when Rick and Morgan arrived?

Hm maybe, I vaguely remember that walker, but don't remember if it was the same guy. Hopefully someone else can double-check that.

I am still thinking that Carol decided to go on a suicide mission. She feels strongly about not letting her family lose their humanity; look at how she reacted with Maggie. The foreshadowing is there – Carol's boyfriend telling her last(?) episode, "You're a mother. You can do the hard things we can't." At least this would make more sense to me than just riding off into the sunset.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

On the DVD/Bluray release according to Kirkman.

Eh, it's better than nothing I suppose!

 

[Surfinn]

I don't necessarily disagree with your feelings about Carol's change but I think there is a huge difference for her in having to kill to survive on her own, and the group's rash decision to jump head first into starting a war with the Saviors. One is defensive and the other is offensive, searching for victims because they can. For this reason alone, I can mostly accept Carol's change of heart.

Honestly, when Rick took the shot at the dude running away, I was appalled. I think Morgan's views are unrealistic in their narrowness but I would rather root for someone like him than where Rick is today. Maybe Carol is just realizing that the world needs more Morgans than Ricks and she is going to extremes to pull herself back. But yeah I'm not really sure what her plan was driving off in that car at this time. Not smart at all but that's on the writers to me and not the character.

That's a good point, but where does she say anything about killing in offense or defense in her letter? She simply talks about killing in general and how she won't do it for those she loves (even though she's done it for about 4 seasons now). It's too late for this sort of decision because it backtracks on the development she's had since season 1-2. Plus, if she really DOES feel that way about Rick's decision making, it makes absolutely no sense for her not to approach him with her feelings before she actually commits to leaving. She's had absolutely no problem talking plainly to Rick in the past (i.e. "these people are like children, they're going to make us weak") and I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for her character to suddenly jeopardize everything and everyone in Alexandria without at least voicing her opinion like she's pretty much always done since she became a hardened survivor. And I completely disagree with your assertion that Rick's group was killing "victims" when they actively terrorize and kill innocent people in order to essentially steal their supplies.

"offense" and "defense" in this case are pretty subjective (yes, the literal event of the attack was offensive); one could make the argument that had Rick not already made a move to attack them, Negan could be at their gates demanding whatever they wanted at gunpoint. I'd argue that it was a defensive measure to ensure Alexandria isn't invaded by an outside army. Rick knows they'd be next the second Negan and his men find out about their existence. Rick knows their meeting is inevitable, however it goes down.

The characters are the writing. And they've been poor characters lately.

 

[CorvoSol]

Y'all, there is no zombie baby. Quit jumping to wild conclusions. Maggie is AT MOST maybe four months pregnant. Also, you can also have severe cramping and bleeding and not even have a miscarriage, but just a scare. (source: have given birth to children, have experienced a difficult pregnancy)

I think Carol or Maggie said 2 months in the episode they were abducted in, so I really think zombie babby isn't happening.

 

[bitbydeath]

No, this is just an excuse for blatantly horrible writing.

No, you're just not understanding.
Clearly many others do hence them trying to explain it to you.

1. Carol didn't break down overnight it was over a 2 month period and it was because of Morgan.

2. She's trying to escape herself and the craziness which Morgan inflicted upon her which is why she is trying to leave.

3. She is not wanting to kill anyone which is why she gets in a panic but is smart enough to know to be prepared for such situations.

Tldr; She doesn't want to die and she doesn't want to kill, she just wants to run away from her old life.

 

[Surfinn]

No, you're just not understanding.
Clearly many others do hence them trying to explain it to you.

1. Carol didn't break down overnight it was over a 2 month period and it was because of Morgan.

2. She's trying to escape herself and the craziness which Morgan inflicted upon her which is why she is trying to leave.

3. She is not wanting to kill anyone which is why she gets in a panic but is smart enough to know to be prepared for such situations.

Tldr; She doesn't want to die and she doesn't want to kill, she just wants to run away from her old life.

Run away... where? To a life where she must kill to survive anyway? With no one else to back her up or protect her and is therefore immediately thrown into a situation where she's got a much higher chance of dying (or being captured again)? She's got absolutely no plan and she's not dumb enough to commit to something this stupid. Or so I thought.

I think I understand just fine, thanks.

 

[bitbydeath]

Run away... where? To a life where she must kill to survive anyway? With no one else to back her up or protect her and is therefore immediately thrown into a situation where she's got a much higher chance of dying (or being captured again)? She's got absolutely no plan and she's not dumb enough to commit to something this stupid. Or so I thought.

Yeah but what if her crew are constant reminders of all the bad things she has done.

Anywhere would be better than staying with them.

She's having a breakdown.

 

[Surfinn]

Yeah but what if her crew are constant reminders of all the bad things she has done.

Anywhere would be better than staying with them.

She's having a breakdown.

I'm not sure why people are saying she's having a breakdown when it was a premeditated decision; this isn't just some split second emotional reaction, she thought about it so much she even left a damn goodbye note, fastened an uzi inside of her sleeve and packed all her shit up.

This was something she spent lots of time thinking about and reached a conclusion.

 

[bitbydeath]

I'm not sure why people are saying she's having a breakdown when she premeditated ALL of this over time; this isn't just some split second decision, she thought about it so much she even left a damn note, fastened an uzi inside of her sleeve and packed all her shit up.

This was something she spent time thinking about and reached a conclusion.

Breakdown doesn't mean comatosed, her head is just messed up with whatever Morgan has been brainwashing her with.

 

[someday]

That's a good point, but where does she say anything about killing in offense or defense in her letter? She simply talks about killing in general and how she won't do it for those she loves (even though she's done it for about 4 seasons now). It's too late for this sort of decision because it backtracks on the development she's had since season 1-2. Plus, if she really DOES feel that way about Rick's decision making, it makes absolutely no sense for her not to approach him with her feelings before she actually commits to leaving. She's had absolutely no problem talking plainly to Rick in the past (i.e. "these people are like children, they're going to make us weak") and I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for her character to suddenly jeopardize everything and everyone in Alexandria without at least voicing her opinion like she's pretty much always done since she became a hardened survivor. And I completely disagree with your assertion that Rick's group was killing "victims" when they actively terrorize and kill innocent people in order to essentially steal their supplies.

"offense" and "defense" in this case are pretty subjective (yes, the literal event of the attack was offensive); one could make the argument that had Rick not already made a move to attack them, Negan could be at their gates demanding whatever they wanted at gunpoint. I'd argue that it was a defensive measure to ensure Alexandria isn't invaded by an outside army. Rick knows they'd be next the second Negan and his men find out about their existence. Rick knows their meeting is inevitable, however it goes down.

The characters are the writing. And they've been poor characters lately.

I interpreted the comment, "I'm not able to kill for you" (paraphrased) to explain her leaving and yet still killing to protect herself. I may be wrong but it's the only way to make sense of her actions. Maybe the writers are seeing it differently but until they decide to explain it further, it suffices for me.

I also think it was easier for her to talk plainly to Rick when they were in agreement. Their conversations were always just planning and very simple. I haven't seen anything to suggest they had philosophical discussions about anything so I can understand why she didn't feel the need to do it now. They've never been "friends" from what I've seen. Actually, I've haven't seen anyone besides Daryl who has been shown as an actual friend to Carol who she would talk to.

I didn't use the word "victims" to imply that the Saviors were innocent at all. It was just a word to indicate the recipient of our groups bullets and knives. No reason to interpret it differently.

I see what our group has started as a pre-emptive war. I can understand why they decided to do this but I also know the end results of it. I don't actually agree with this as a rule since you go from an unknown situation to the worst case scenario immediately if it doesn't work out. Rick and co have definitely created this situation. They've killed dozens of the Saviors pre-emptively and created a worse monster in the process. Better planning would have made a huge difference and made the decision much less reckless. I would have been more on board then.

 

[poppabk]

Lack of consistency has been the biggest issue this season. Characters don't even feel individualistic at all. If Carol can essentially become a Morgan, what the hell is the point of even trying to write content for anyone? Why should we care about them?

Daryl gets ambushed by Dwight who apparently wields a pistol that turns him into a ninja, and Carol cries about killing people purely out of defense after about four seasons of murdering with almost no remorse? Who are these people?

It's grinding.

What? The show has been rigidly consistent in showing us that the group are hard of hearing. If you aren't moaning like a porn star then you can get within chomping distance no problem.

 

[JuanLatino]

i dont think we will see carol in the next episode.

It will be a focus on Morgan and the Saviour that survived. There has to be reason, why Rick gave him a gun and Morgan will probably have to use it

 

[parrotbeak]

Is it me or is the show catching up to the comic very quickly?

It's in it's sixth year, and it took 9 years to get approximately to this point in the comic. I recall there being long breaks between issues in the pre-show years of the comic.

 

[Volimar]

 

[giancarlo123x]

lmao looks legit.