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AVClub: Ghostbusters, Frozen, and the strange entitlement of fan culture

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It's either this or introduce them to fanfiction.net

My friend was is heavily invested in the Harry Potter ones.

I'd take wishes and hopes over Twitter than bringing it out in everyday life like a lifelong fanfiction member.

It's like dealing with Ako from Netoge no Yome wa Onnanoko ja Nai to Omotta. It's not fun
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
I don't buy James Rolfe's rationale of not watching the new Ghostbusters because it deviates so much from the original.

It seems he doesn't have the same standards to Michael Bay Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles film, and he's as much a fan of the TMNT as he is Ghostbusters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYKRNYFgEKA

Skip to 29:00
Eh, its a complete different thing? There are far more Turtles variations then Ghostbuster ever had?
 

Oersted

Member
Good quote and I agree. No matter how bad the new Tarzan turns out to be the original Disney film will still be the same.

The new Tarzan is not an adaption of the Disney movie, it is an adaption of the book series of the same name, written by Edgar Rice Burroughs between 1912 and 1965. The Disney adaption from 1999 is neither the original version nor the first adaption.
 
I know but it feels manufactured.

The outcry from MRA groups over Furiosa in Mad Max felt real and actually got me interested in the film to the point I watched it 3 times in cinemas.

Here it just doesn't feel as evident, mostly because the trailers make the film look crap and it's trying too hard to be a straight up remake of the first one rather than be it's own thing.

None of what you mention is exclusive to Ghostbusters. I can't think of a single good comedy trailer. They all are not good to terrible. It's hard to put a joke in context in a trailer, and the editing of a joke is never how it appears in the film. And many of the recent remakes were straight up remakes. But I can't think of a single one that has seen the same heat as Ghostbusters.
 

Mask

Member
I can see why James was disappointed though, it's not like Ghostbusters is a series that's been dead for years. We've constantly had rumblings of a third film, and it even seemed to get somewhat close to entering pre-production a few years before Harold Ramis passed away, so the hope was there for quite a while. We even had the video game that was essentially a third film, the IDW comics that carried on from the film and expanded on the canon in a great way and a Real Ghostbusters comic too.

I took it as he saw it as a wasted opportunity to pass on the torch, since we're down to three ghostbusters and they ain't getting any younger. But, again, he's easily attacked since his most popular videos are Angry Video Game Nerd, and that's like a wet dream for clickbait journos looking for an easy angle and target.

Can't really see Disney execs being eager to mess with something like Frozen, not when they can stick to the status quo and throw a new prince in there or something. Something like that would probably show up in a new film altogether, I'd imagine.
 

riotous

Banned
One thing I think is funny is that it seems like almost everyone complains about remakes. "Hollywood so unoriginal!" Then when a remake they like the idea of comes out they demand it be as unoriginal as possible and follow the original as much as possible.

I don't have any evidence proving who has had these 2 contrasting opinions but the pervelance of both opinions leads me to believe plenty of people have both whined about lack of originality and remakes and then gotten really excited for particular remakes and upset they did something new.

Same applies to sequels.
 
Ghostbusters was not in anyway that I can recall a sexist movie. So you announce a new one, but its all about girl power rawr, and isn't it great, we are ghostbusters, but wait, GIRL ghostbusters!

I... yeah I don't think this is the case at all. So girls doing something cool, smart, powerful = sexist and focused on girl power?
 

Ogodei

Member
Well, crazy fandoms have been going on since Star Wars.

Star Trek, really. That was where fanfiction in the modern sense started (since really fanfiction has been going on for as long as there have been stories, just before there was real IP law they were simply contributions to the body of fiction).
 

lazygecko

Member
Remakes of Total Recall, Robocop, Halloween, Point Break etc, etc, all of them had much the same response that Ghostbusters is getting way before release, I don't see what makes this film a special case.

None of them had anything even close to resembling the kind of scrutiny the new Ghostbusters got.
 
I think the backlash is pretty understandable...

Ghostbusters was not in anyway that I can recall a sexist movie. So you announce a new one, but its all about girl power rawr, and isn't it great, we are ghostbusters, but wait, GIRL ghostbusters!

Then you release some promo shit and its pure trash.

So you have taken a classic movie, turned it into some kind of empowering feminist piece, then made it bad.

Female ghostbusters to me doesn't really seem to be righting some wrong, its like they did it just for marketing... because they couldn't come up with a good movie.

this right here. Ghostbusters was not the right podium for such an important issue. It weakens the movie and trivializes what women's power is about.
 

G-Fex

Member
Just wait until they remake Back to the Future. We'll look back on how the Ghostbusters remake hate looked quaint by comparison.

But they're never going to remake it. Yet people on this board are insane enough to believe in their insecurities over their 'beloved' movies that they made a thread whining and moaning over a BttF remake that DOES NOT EXIST.


Fandoms are dumb fans.

Perfect
 

Flo_Evans

Member
I... yeah I don't think this is the case at all. So girls doing something cool, smart, powerful = sexist and focused on girl power?

TnX5Zku.jpg


?
 
this right here. Ghostbusters was not the right podium for such an important issue. It weakens the movie and trivializes what women's power is about.

How does this trivialize anything? I see some female characters doing the same kind of thing the male characters did in the original. The only thing I'm seeing is that we're not used to this sort of thing actually happening, an all-female replacement or something of the ilk, and we're seeing women doing empowering things (for the betterment of society, mind you), and this is somehow sexist.


I'm talking about the content of the film. They're allowed to feel that way and it doesn't go against anything about what Ghostbusters fundamentally is.
 
It is a bit weird to see so many upset at James over choosing not to watch a movie.
The outrage is probably overblown, but it's likely due to bad marketing combined with a slightly controversial concept.
It'll be interesting to see the reception to the movie by critics which will likely leave egg on someone's face over all of this (if it's great like the director's latest movie (Spy) was, or if it's bad as the commercial indicates)

On the other topic (fandoms):
I'm not too fond of fandoms demanding for things recently. It doesn't feel the same if something is done to appease to a group instead of the creators really wanting it.
Not sure how to solve it, though. Studios might want to do something but they might fear backlash, so letting a studio know what you're ok with something would be good but maybe not demanding it.
 

Eidan

Member
this right here. Ghostbusters was not the right podium for such an important issue. It weakens the movie and trivializes what women's power is about.

It does? To me it seemed like your tried and true, "Let's put a new spin on it" remake, something that has been done many times before. Just that this time there's a much more fervent backlash because the new spin has women, and a lot of mouth breathers just don't find girls funny.
 

Kinyou

Member
Doesn't everyone have hopes for in which direction their favorite franchise etc should go? I agree that this kind of ownership can go too far, but at the same time I can't see a problem with Rolfe's reaction "This movie isn't how I imagined the franchise to continue, so I wont watch it"

I mean it's not like they'r entitled to him seeing it.

and btw. here they're really just putting words in his mouth

(and, judging from the way he talks around the female cast, probably also if it had fewer women in it. You know, a reasonable number—something less reflective of the actual number of women in the world, and more reflective of Hollywood in the ’80s).
 

DeathoftheEndless

Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
One of the things that the article doesn't mention is that hardcore fanbases on the internet are used to getting their way. Seeing large companies apologize and make changes due to public outcry is an everyday occurrence now. That's why you'll see so much entitlement; because fans know if they complain loud enough or in big numbers, creators will listen. Its not always a bad thing, but it can limit what artists want to do.
 

Lothar

Banned
I hope the OP was posting this article to make fun of it.

Look at this embarrassing childish quote from the article

"In short, he would be more enthusiastic about this movie if it took his feelings as a fan into account (and, judging from the way he talks around the female cast, probably also if it had fewer women in it"

"A guy doesn't want to see a movie that looks like it will be bad, so I must insult him." - Someone that shouldn't have his article taken seriously or be respected
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
I hope the OP was posting this article to make fun of it.

Look at this embarrassing childish quote from the article

"In short, he would be more enthusiastic about this movie if it took his feelings as a fan into account (and, judging from the way he talks around the female cast, probably also if it had fewer women in it"

"A guy doesn't want to see a movie that looks like it will be bad, so I must insult him." - Someone that shouldn't have his article taken seriously or be respected
This person has really not seen the video
 

Eidan

Member
It's so weird to think that Rolfe would refuse to watch this movie if it were critically acclaimed and had like, a 90% RT rating, but gladly sat through 2014's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
 

Metrotab

Banned
Doesn't everyone have hopes for in which direction their favorite franchise etc should go? I agree that this kind of ownership can go too far, but at the same time I can't see a problem with Rolfe's reaction "This movie isn't how I imagined the franchise to continue, so I wont watch it"

I mean it's not like they'r entitled to him seeing it.

and btw. here they're really just putting words in his mouth

I hope the OP was posting this article to make fun of it.

Look at this embarrassing childish quote from the article

"In short, he would be more enthusiastic about this movie if it took his feelings as a fan into account (and, judging from the way he talks around the female cast, probably also if it had fewer women in it"

"A guy doesn't want to see a movie that looks like it will be bad, so I must insult him." - Someone that shouldn't have his article taken seriously or be respected

Several media sites have been trying to brand Rolfe as some kind of "hidden/subconscious/covert sexist", making it look like he went on an angry reactionary rant or something.

Then you watch the video and it's just him sitting there, calmly explaining his views on why he won't see the movie in the most respectful way possible.

It makes them look like fools.
 

Oozer3993

Member
As long as Zemeckis is alive it won't be remade. That's actually a clause in the original contract.

Like, some one can remake the film just as soon as he dies? I smell a movie! An executive with a struggling studio takes out a hit on Robert Zemeckis, desperate for the profits a Back to the Future remake would bring.
 

zelas

Member
I'm surprised AVGN is getting this much attention for doing something so transparent. His justifications for not seeing the movie can be applied to several franchises he's ranted about. Specifically Godzilla '98.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Several media sites have been trying to brand Rolfe as some kind of "hidden/subconscious/covert sexist", making it look like he went on an angry reactionary rant or something.

Then you watch the video and it's just him sitting there, calmly explaining his views on why he won't see the movie in the most respectful way possible.

It makes them look like fools.

I love this so much. People saying he is a hidden sexist because he is befriended with this AlphaOmegaSin Idiot; which is problematic, but doesnt make James a sexist or a gamergate.
 

Betty

Banned
None of them had anything even close to resembling the kind of scrutiny the new Ghostbusters got.

That's because Ghostbusters is more beloved by more people.

You'll see the same reactions when Die Hard, Back to the Future and The Goonies get remade/rebooted.

Which they absolutely will.
 

Goodstyle

Member
Article articulated my feelings on a lot of things, particularly with the Ghostbusters.

He's also dead on with the #GiveCharacterAGirlfriend/Boyfriend movement.
 
Because the narrative has been written that people are sexist meanies to this film. So any actual criticism of the poor marketing/quality trailers/casting is met with "you're sexist" retorts.

You're acting like people aren't being sexist meanines at all, which is a laughable position to take to say the least.
 
I also think a lot of it has to do with the sense of personal pride a lot of fans feel when they see that "one of their own" has made it into the industry, or is basically the image of a "local geek does good" - this is a huge reason why Kevin Smith is still a thing, for example.

So once your fandom is reinforced by the idea (faulty as it may be) that fandom can be rewarded with the keys to the castle (or at least a wing of it), that sense of ownership is only strengthened. And eventually that turns into the idea that being a fan is one of the only ways to make something good.

It ends up just being a different flavor of gatekeeping. Less mean-spirited and bold, but still essentially the same thing: You need to trust us to make this right because you don't understand why it's good like we do. So like, if you're not going to actually put us in charge, you need to at least listen to us, otherwise you're guaranteed to fuck it up because you just don't get it.

(this is, basically, a form of entitlement)

A lot of people don't even question the idea that being a fan is a positive when it comes to making quality entertainment. They just accept it as axiomatic fact. And often being a fan has nothing to do with whether or not the storytelling is solid.

But when you come from a perspective that honestly believes being a fan can only make things better, and you already have that sense of ownership, and that sense of ownership is validated by your projecting your own fandom onto another filmmaker's abilities (i.e. "When he wins, I win, because he's a fan like me!") it makes sense that fans would hijack the ownership of a thing and demand they get to put a hand on the steering wheel.

It doesn't readily occur to a lot of us that it's easier (and more fun) to just like a thing (or dislike it) without worrying about how it reflects our idealized childhoods.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Does this photograph anger you?

No? It just seems fairly obvious this movie is using a cheap hook of feminism... when its already using a cheap hook of being a remake.

2 strikes.

Trailer is hot garbage, 3rd strike. No interest in seeing this. I don't think i've seen any of Feig's movies, they all look like trash to me.
 

ultron87

Member
I think it's a little silly that some of my friends are harsher on the Cap/Sharon relationship in Civil War because it goes against their Cap/Bucky shipping (and would probably react similarly to Elsa getting a boyfriend) but it doesn't seem as disingenuous as the general reaction to lady Ghostbusters stuff. Obviously it coming from my friends, who I like, versus people on the Internet reacting against women in a thing, who I'm inclined to think are assholes, adds some bias to how I approach this stuff.

I suppose I'm primarily able to rectify my opinion that give Elsa a girlfriend/Cap a boyfriend is okay, but being mad about lady Ghostbusters isn't, because of how they relate to the status quo. A big budget action comedy starring a team of women isn't something we've seen a million times before, but a currently unattached character from a popular franchise being straight is the default expected thing. So a campaign to show there is popular support for a different way to go and increasing visibility for other diverse options for character sexuality seems more okay to me than campaigns that lash out against changes in the status quo.
 

LionPride

Banned
At this point, I'm positive I've seen more people say that the sexism is fake and manufactured than people point out the sexism and misogony from folks over the interwebs

There is sexism regarding this movie. People for some fucking reason, wanna act as if having women be the Ghostbusters ruins everything, as if having this Ghostbusters erases the original movie like it's BTTF or some shit.
 
There is sexism regarding this movie. People for some fucking reason, wanna act as if having women be the Ghostbusters ruins everything, as if having this Ghostbusters erases the original movie like it's BTTF or some shit.

The first trailer might've looked bad and made things worse, but the second they announced the cast would be all female, people went from cautious to losing their shit over it without knowing anything about it
 

The_Kid

Member
I don't know, I think it's a reach to think that the movie is getting this much backlash just because it looks mediocre to some people. I'm reminded of the Federation Force situation. Those trailers got so many dislikes not simply because the game looked uninspired to fans, but because the franchise didn't bring out a game more in line with what they expected or hoped for. It became more personal, like the existence of that game was depriving them of a continued franchise or something.

The whole idea of "This isn't what Ghostbusters should be" fuels the vitriol more than "this movie is mediocre and I wouldn't go see it." It wouldn't get that much hate simply from the latter. People don't publicly dislike something that much just because it looks mediocre to them. They just don't see it or buy it.

And that ties into the female cast for some people, because Ghostbusters can't be female, or Ghostbusters can't be anyone else besides the original four, or whatever. GhostBuster's needs to be this or otherwise it isn't fit to wield the name. Anyone remember Sequelitis, where Egoraptor received a ton of backlash because his argument was fueled entirely by what he thought Zelda should be, and Ocarina didn't line up with that? Arguing the sexist angle is kind of moot because if someone doesn't see it, then to them there is no possibility it exists.

It doesn't even matter, because that sort of protection of a franchise can hinder it from opening up to new audiences. And the "Why don't they make a different movie than Ghostbusters? They're just trying to make a quick buck" argument is stupid because that is literally Hollywood, or any entertainment industry. It doesn't make the story inherently bad.
 
These remakes/reboots/reimaginings are all about playing into fan nostalgia, so I don't think there's any issue if fans like Rolfe voice their disinterest.

Remakes of Total Recall, Robocop, Halloween, Point Break etc, etc, all of them had much the same response that Ghostbusters is getting way before release, I don't see what makes this film a special case.

Ghostbusters response has been much worse at every single step of this process. For every little thing.

Fandom will always get mad at remakes, but the level of the vitriol has been unprecedented and all we have so far is trailers.

Bingo.

this right here. Ghostbusters was not the right podium for such an important issue. It weakens the movie and trivializes what women's power is about.

No? It just seems fairly obvious this movie is using a cheap hook of feminism... when its already using a cheap hook of being a remake.

2 strikes.

That's not a gimmick. Sony wanted a Ghostbusters film. They shopped it around. Paul Fieg said yes. Paul Fieg likes working with women, so Paul Fieg cast all women. Done.

That is literally his creative desire at work, but through your personal lens, it's somehow a podium and a cheap hook. You should probably think about that a bit more.
 
I don't know, I think it's a reach to think that the movie is getting this much backlash just because it looks mediocre to some people.

The whole idea of "This isn't what Ghostbusters should be" fuels the vitriol more than "this movie is mediocre and I wouldn't go see it." It wouldn't get that much hate simply from the latter.

And that ties into the female cast for some people, because Ghostbusters can't be female, or Ghostbusters can't be anyone else besides the original four, or whatever. Arguing the sexist angle is kind of moot because if someone doesn't see it, then to them there is no possibility it exists.

It doesn't even matter, because that sort of protection of a franchise can hinder it from opening up to new audiences. And the "Why don't they make a different movie than Ghostbusters? They're just trying to make a quick buck" argument is stupid because that is literally Hollywood, or any entertainment industry. It doesn't make the story inherently bad.

This is a great post that I agree with 100% with the same points I've tried to make elsewhere.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I felt like the lesbian shipping requests for Avatar Korra were less focused on progressiveness and more focused on the Yuri fappers.
 
That's not a gimmick. Sony wanted a Ghostbusters film. They shopped it around. Paul Fieg said yes. Paul Fieg likes working with women, so Paul Fieg cast all women. Done.

That is literally his creative desire at work, but through your personal lens, it's somehow a podium and a cheap hook. You should probably think about that a bit more.
I remember hearing things like the original director of Ghostbusters wanted a male/female team but could never complete it.
Paul Fieg gets to direct it and with respect to the original creator, make it based on all female-cast due to wanting females on the team.
So yeah what we got is different than the original vision, but still the idea was the same.

Which make it silly because we heard over 10 years this stuff. It only became an issue with the first trailer, LOL.
 

btown

Member
No? It just seems fairly obvious this movie is using a cheap hook of feminism... when its already using a cheap hook of being a remake.

2 strikes.

Trailer is hot garbage, 3rd strike. No interest in seeing this. I don't think i've seen any of Feig's movies, they all look like trash to me.

I'll give you the remake and bad trailer strikes but I don't see how having an unashamed female cast/crew is a cheap feminist hook.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
No? It just seems fairly obvious this movie is using a cheap hook of feminism... when its already using a cheap hook of being a remake.

2 strikes.

Trailer is hot garbage, 3rd strike. No interest in seeing this. I don't think i've seen any of Feig's movies, they all look like trash to me.

What cheap hook? That they took a picture during production? When did someone say "Girls rule and boys drool" in the trailer? What perceived acts of feminism were in the officially released material for the movie?

I think what you're saying is a perfect example of the problem. People have been saying "Not my Ghostbusters! They're pushing feminism on me!" literally since the cast was announced. I'm talking before 1 second of filming had been done. So having an all female cast is #GRLLPOWER? I'm confused because women know other women...Feig makes movies with female casts...and comedies...

Honestly, I feel like critics pushing against the movie have a bigger agenda than anything I've seen the film push. I mean, it could be a complete piece of crap. But I'm super lost on what feminist hook they've burdened you with. It just sounds like people looking for a reason to bitch and moan about a predominantly female cast.
 
And the "Why don't they make a different movie than Ghostbusters? They're just trying to make a quick buck" argument is stupid because that is literally Hollywood, or any entertainment industry. It doesn't make the story inherently bad.

Not only does that line of questioning pretend like the property they're trying to "protect" with their fandom didn't come from the same multimedia conglomerates currently exploiting the brand in the first place, but it's the same sort of dodge you can see in the Gillian Anderson as Bond thread, and any other discussion about race-or-gender-bending an established hero:

"Why don't you make them their own original thing, over there somewhere, so it can go be over there somewhere, and I don't have to look at it. This way I get to claim that I'm all for original entertainment when I really don't give a shit about that, plus I get to call it a shameless ripoff of the thing I do like if I feel so inclined. But if you change the thing I like, now I have to pay attention to it, and that makes me upset."
 

G-Fex

Member
I don't know, I think it's a reach to think that the movie is getting this much backlash just because it looks mediocre to some people. I'm reminded of the Federation Force situation. Those trailers got so many dislikes not simply because the game looked uninspired to fans, but because the franchise didn't bring out a game more in line with what they expected or hoped for. It became more personal, like the existence of that game was depriving them of a continued franchise or something.

The whole idea of "This isn't what Ghostbusters should be" fuels the vitriol more than "this movie is mediocre and I wouldn't go see it." It wouldn't get that much hate simply from the latter.

And that ties into the female cast for some people, because Ghostbusters can't be female, or Ghostbusters can't be anyone else besides the original four, or whatever. Arguing the sexist angle is kind of moot because if someone doesn't see it, then to them there is no possibility it exists.

It doesn't even matter, because that sort of protection of a franchise can hinder it from opening up to new audiences. And the "Why don't they make a different movie than Ghostbusters? They're just trying to make a quick buck" argument is stupid because that is literally Hollywood, or any entertainment industry. It doesn't make the story inherently bad.

haha this reminds me how insane Metroid fans are and overreacted.
 
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