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I don't understand how you're supposed to play Sonic games.
- Thread starter digitalrelic
- Start date
Acerac
Banned
It is difficult to succeed at a thing you do not understand.
No idea, I'm terrible at the Genesis games and still like them a lot. Well, all except for CD, whose level design I think is all over the place. And Sonic 3D, I never enjoyed that one.
Who runs into an obstacle in Sonic and thinks "oh, I'm not supposed to go fast now?!?! Make up your damn mind!" Was it expected that you just held down the right arrow to run fast? Do you have the same sort of confusion when the stamina meter runs out in BotW "Nintendo said Link could climb now but that's obviously bullshit."
I can't wrap my head around this. I need to read this thread thoroughly a few times to access all the areas and content because I know I'm going to go too fast the first time.
I can't wrap my head around this. I need to read this thread thoroughly a few times to access all the areas and content because I know I'm going to go too fast the first time.
Elfforkusu
Member
I think it's certainly true that classic Sonic has a more punishing initial learning curve than most other 2d platformers. A lot of people never figure it out, since clearing the level is not where most of the difficulty lies.
It's also the case that only 2, 3&k, and seemingly mania are more polished than experimental. 1 and CD in particular require a certain frame of mind to get the most out of, the creativity sometimes comes the expense of coherence.
Anyway:
1. Sonic levels are a series of newtonian momentum puzzles/set pieces. They are sprawling to the extent that you'll usually take a different path through the level each time through.
2. The challenge comes from learning the optimal speed to take set piece A which leads into B which branches to C and D ... to the end of the level. If you fail one, there's always another challenge waiting -- and the punishment for failing is usually minor annoyance, not death.
3. Rolling has subtly different acceleration and jumping physics, effectively acting as a transformation you can toggle between with a button press (down to start, jump to get out)
4. Play how you want to play
It's also the case that only 2, 3&k, and seemingly mania are more polished than experimental. 1 and CD in particular require a certain frame of mind to get the most out of, the creativity sometimes comes the expense of coherence.
Anyway:
1. Sonic levels are a series of newtonian momentum puzzles/set pieces. They are sprawling to the extent that you'll usually take a different path through the level each time through.
2. The challenge comes from learning the optimal speed to take set piece A which leads into B which branches to C and D ... to the end of the level. If you fail one, there's always another challenge waiting -- and the punishment for failing is usually minor annoyance, not death.
3. Rolling has subtly different acceleration and jumping physics, effectively acting as a transformation you can toggle between with a button press (down to start, jump to get out)
4. Play how you want to play
To Far Away Times
Member
Sonic 3&K is the game where they nailed the formula.
Sonic is primarily a game about exploration. You play at normal platform game speeds and hunt for the giant gold rings to try to get to get the emeralds. You do this by searching for hidden areas, some of which are only accessible if you build up momentum and launch off a ramp or equivalent. Some of the giant gold rings are a one shot deal, if you miss a jump you can't make another attempt. Once you get into a bonus stage you will likely fail, as these are by far the most difficult part of the game. The actual platforming and bosses are quite easy in comparison. There's a deliberate balance there between the short and easy main game, and the difficult bonus stages taking several playthoughs to discover and then master. A quality Sonic game should be played through many, many times to see it all. These aren't the kind of games you beat once and forget about on your shelf.
Sonic is primarily a game about exploration. You play at normal platform game speeds and hunt for the giant gold rings to try to get to get the emeralds. You do this by searching for hidden areas, some of which are only accessible if you build up momentum and launch off a ramp or equivalent. Some of the giant gold rings are a one shot deal, if you miss a jump you can't make another attempt. Once you get into a bonus stage you will likely fail, as these are by far the most difficult part of the game. The actual platforming and bosses are quite easy in comparison. There's a deliberate balance there between the short and easy main game, and the difficult bonus stages taking several playthoughs to discover and then master. A quality Sonic game should be played through many, many times to see it all. These aren't the kind of games you beat once and forget about on your shelf.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Already did. Importing the collector's edition from the UK will be the most expensive game I've ever bought.
Should've been first post
"Sonic was never good" people are people that didn't play a sonic game in the early-mid 90s. Either not born yet, didn't own a genesis, or were Nintendo fanboys that never got over it in the 25 years since.
This isn't even meant to be tongue in cheek either, it's not like today - platformers were THE genre. Unless your stance is also that MArio was never good, having a 'sonic was never good' stance is basically objectively wrong. It'd be like saying Quake was never good as an FPS.
Right?
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
*stares into space and sips an alcoholic beverage*
This world.
ba-dum-tsssh
Glass Shark
Banned
I have never really liked Sonic and I owned a Genesis before I owned a SNES. Played the games growing up, they just didnt click with me. I dont think the games are trash or whatever like so many people do, they just do absolutely nothing for me personally on any level. Im glad for the people who like the games.
Lmaoooo the sonic games are flawless, I'm 100% serious. Mania is awesome. Everyone go play it.
For real though, the point of sonic was to make it to the end without dying. Levels were meant to be played over and over and over, since there was no saving. You had to get good, memorize the best paths through the stages, and if you were lucky, grab a few extra lives or even chaos emeralds. Rings were a means to an end - to survive until the end, and to maybe snag an extra life. It was NOT a collectathon. It was way more hardcore and rewarding than other platformers at the time in my unprofessional, biased opinion.
For real though, the point of sonic was to make it to the end without dying. Levels were meant to be played over and over and over, since there was no saving. You had to get good, memorize the best paths through the stages, and if you were lucky, grab a few extra lives or even chaos emeralds. Rings were a means to an end - to survive until the end, and to maybe snag an extra life. It was NOT a collectathon. It was way more hardcore and rewarding than other platformers at the time in my unprofessional, biased opinion.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
People like yall need hand holding and shiny objects to give you hints in games.
When I was like 4 I just played the game, my imagination ran wild and it still does. Just do what you want. Personally I try to get to the end and go in bonus stages.
When I was like 4 I just played the game, my imagination ran wild and it still does. Just do what you want. Personally I try to get to the end and go in bonus stages.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
Perhaps not the best choice of words for a game where collecting solid gold rings is a goal.
Glass Shark
Banned
When Sonic Mania comes out on PC I will record myself playing it for the first time and post it for all to see. Might actually be interesting.
The Illiterati
Member
This thread is perfection. Whether the OP intended it or not, he expertly laid out the fundamental flaws of the Sonic games structures.
You can either go fast as the game allows and not have any fun because you're going to run into constant obstacles that hurt you and hinder you.
Or you can go slow and feel held back the entire time and not have any fun.
You can either go fast as the game allows and not have any fun because you're going to run into constant obstacles that hurt you and hinder you.
Or you can go slow and feel held back the entire time and not have any fun.
But like, do I go fast?!? Do I explore?!?! Which path do I take?!?! This game sucks.
/s
This isn't directed at OP, this is directed at everyone who thinks Sonic sucks because of these reasons. Sorry Sega isn't holding your hand the whole way.
Pathfinder
Member
You can definitely tell by this thread who were Sega kids and who were Nintendo kids.
**SUBJECTIVE**
Waluigilicious
Member
What has this got to do with being good? I agree with OP and I've completed the classic Sonic games.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
View it as a semi-standard platformer that turns into an accomodating speedrun as you master the level. Counter intuitive to the rhythm you'd expect going in, but it's nice that the game allows for a strong change in playstyle the better you get.
Speaking about the 2D Sonics in general, I haven't played Mania yet.
family_guy
Member
Some of us had the luxury of both. Good times.
But can you tell which ones are the shareware kids?
This thread is weird. You play however you want? If you wanna explore you explore, but if you don't enjoy exploring you can go fast and finish the levels ASAP. You collect rings if you think you'll need extra lives, otherwise you keep at least 1 and otherwise ignore them. Get the powerups if you feel like you need/want them?
The "way you play" Sonic games is you get to the end of each stage. How you do that is entirely up to you obviously.
Do you have no fun in Mario games unless you're holding the run button and moving forward the whole time? This is also a weird statement. Just because a game allows you to go fast doesn't eliminate any fun to be had when you aren't going at full speed.
Also, I never had any issues as a kid going forward in sonic and reacting to and avoiding obstacles as I came across them, at full speed. Is this really something people have trouble with? It comes up a lot, but Sonic 1/2/3 didn't exactly require amazing reaction time to avoid obstacles at max speed.
The "way you play" Sonic games is you get to the end of each stage. How you do that is entirely up to you obviously.
Do you have no fun in Mario games unless you're holding the run button and moving forward the whole time? This is also a weird statement. Just because a game allows you to go fast doesn't eliminate any fun to be had when you aren't going at full speed.
Also, I never had any issues as a kid going forward in sonic and reacting to and avoiding obstacles as I came across them, at full speed. Is this really something people have trouble with? It comes up a lot, but Sonic 1/2/3 didn't exactly require amazing reaction time to avoid obstacles at max speed.
Jaded Alyx
Member
I did too. I don't remember being great at the game but I had plenty of fun with it. These days whenever I've tried to go back I actually end up asking myself the same stuff the OP did.
EDIT: I honestly had no idea, but the fact that people seem to be so hurt at others being terrible at this game only convinces me further of the idea that we're not bad at these games, that the games are. And that's okay, people, I'm not gonna take Sonic away from you. I'll still end up buying Mania because nostalgia.
I'm really perplexed by reading this thread.
At best, I'm glad so many people are gonna try classic Sonic through Sonic Mania, and find out how rich and balanced the games are between speed and platforming. Dropping lots of misconceptions caused by Sega's edgy marketing, years of memes and the awful string of 3D Sonic games.
At worst, I'm baffled at some Nintendo zealots here who are still playing console wars 25 years late, using the classic technique of the straw man fallacy: "Sega told me I gotta go fast, so I do it blindly whatever hapens in the game, and I have no fun so Sonic has always sucked". But that's a fallacy. Sonic main appeal at that time was speed and it was marketed towards that, but shooting is the main appeal of Halo and you don't shoot brainlessly at all times.
At best, I'm glad so many people are gonna try classic Sonic through Sonic Mania, and find out how rich and balanced the games are between speed and platforming. Dropping lots of misconceptions caused by Sega's edgy marketing, years of memes and the awful string of 3D Sonic games.
At worst, I'm baffled at some Nintendo zealots here who are still playing console wars 25 years late, using the classic technique of the straw man fallacy: "Sega told me I gotta go fast, so I do it blindly whatever hapens in the game, and I have no fun so Sonic has always sucked". But that's a fallacy. Sonic main appeal at that time was speed and it was marketed towards that, but shooting is the main appeal of Halo and you don't shoot brainlessly at all times.
Barrel Cannon
Member
This is back when games were about just beating levels and beating the game. That's the only real mindset you need to have.
There weren't really unlockables back then for the most part and achieving high scores was a personal achievement thing and for bragging rights.
So as others have said, play it how you want to play it. I personally play to achieve a fastest time with no deaths on my playthroughs
There weren't really unlockables back then for the most part and achieving high scores was a personal achievement thing and for bragging rights.
So as others have said, play it how you want to play it. I personally play to achieve a fastest time with no deaths on my playthroughs
I just don't understand this. How I played Sonic was at first, I would move thru the level. Not a top speed blazing but still at a fast place. I would learn the secret spots, power ups, the fastest routes, etc.
Once you have the routes down, you can try and go fast as you can. And yes there's obstacles, some are there simply to test your reflexes. You can even get a good chain going by jumping on enemies in some levels.
I'm literally amazed by this thread.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
To try and give you the perspective of someone that's saying they find it jarring but not that the game sucks as a result:
Losing your speed when you're new to 2D Sonic is a punishment but it feels like you're not playing the game correctly (in that there is something you're missing or not understanding) as the entirety of Sonic's persona is based around constant speed. If you're not zooming around then you don't feel like Sonic as he's always been shown to you.
Showing something constantly that revolves just around speed and then having a game that, to begin with, halts that often is jarring to some. It's not that the game is shit, it's that you need to play for awhile to get into its rhythm as opposed to the one you go in expecting.
Now obviously I agree the trolls are trolls, on both sides of this thread. There is a legitimate point of view in the OP though. I enjoy the 2D Sonic games a lot, but can appreciate the above at the same time.
But the games are not fun when you are going slow. It's weird, a game that it's at it's peak when you are going full speed, but the level design is actively disencouraging you to speed up.
Bah, youngsters these days, yer spoilt with your 4K gaming and all expansive worlds. Let me tell you I've been playing Sonkc games from the days of the Master System when all we had was a small joypad the size of an iPhone with only a D-pad and 2 buttons, that's all we needed. Pure gaming.
/Old guy rant over
/Old guy rant over
I'm only in my mid 30's
CloudyTuba
Member
I played Sonic games here and there when I was younger but I was never very good at them. Mostly played them at friends houses because I didnt own a Sega console myself.
It kept me amused at the time but years later I tried to go back and I just didn't understand how I was supposed to progress or what my goals were. There was a lot going on and I didn't know how to make sense of everything in a cohesive way. I was confused and frustrated and I kept running into this:
But then I started getting advice like this:
Someone told me I basically had to think of it like Super Mario with more features. The point is just to get to the end. I don't have to collect the coins, get the mushrooms, or kill every goomba. I don't have to run the whole time. However I get more points and have more fun if I do. Sonic's speed? It's a tool, not a crux, no matter what the marketing tells you. If you constantly held down run+dpad in Mario you'd have to have the skills to back it up too, right?
Mario in its simplicity was impossible to misunderstand. Sonic with all its extra features can obscure the fact that it's basically still Mario. After realizing that then I'm like, oh okay. I get it.
It kept me amused at the time but years later I tried to go back and I just didn't understand how I was supposed to progress or what my goals were. There was a lot going on and I didn't know how to make sense of everything in a cohesive way. I was confused and frustrated and I kept running into this:
But then I started getting advice like this:
Someone told me I basically had to think of it like Super Mario with more features. The point is just to get to the end. I don't have to collect the coins, get the mushrooms, or kill every goomba. I don't have to run the whole time. However I get more points and have more fun if I do. Sonic's speed? It's a tool, not a crux, no matter what the marketing tells you. If you constantly held down run+dpad in Mario you'd have to have the skills to back it up too, right?
Mario in its simplicity was impossible to misunderstand. Sonic with all its extra features can obscure the fact that it's basically still Mario. After realizing that then I'm like, oh okay. I get it.
Glass Shark
Banned
The fact that youre referring to anyone as Nintendo zealots means youre playing directly into the console wars that youre attempting to condemn. And youre not the only one doing it, either. If you dont like Sonic it means you didnt own a Genesis. Generalization like that is bullshit and completely closes off the ability to have actual intelligent discussion. Some people are able to think for themselves. Some people had both consoles and still didnt care for the classic Sonic games.
This post is insanely good. Very succinct.
I'd add that rolling is basically how to get around the "enemy issue" that newcomers seem to have at high speeds (in 2, 3, &K, and Mania -- not so much in 1 and CD, where you'll get hit or stopped by spikes, pits, or invincible enemies). The trade-off is that you might not have enough momentum on an unforeseen incline and slow down a bit, which isn't that big of a deal and something to practice towards optimizing.
You may not like the game, but don't elevate that to some "fundamental flaw" that doesn't exist.
The fun of the game is learning when it's most adequate to go fast, and when to go slow. And it's not that hard since the levels themselves give plenty of cues (slope or loop: go fast, enemies or tight platforms: go slow).
Of course when you get more expertise you can challenge yourself to go fast through the sections intended to be traversed slowly, and vice-versa (to explore and find more secrets).
And all that process is really fun because the controls are rich and responsive, the music is super-nice and the graphics are spectacular.
Telephone Man
Member
I still don't get the complaints here and it's all so bizarre to me, but I will say 2 things.
-The ring system probably needs to be reworked. Rings bounce out of screen during bossfights in Mania, making them challenging, but they do make you feel too invincible during the levels themselves.
-Exploration shouldn't be required to get to a special stage, only to find the fastest or safest routes. So I still feel how Sonic 2 handled it (checkpoints) is better than Sonic 3&K and Mania (hidden Giant Rings).
Like someone said, you'll grow to learn when there are sections you're supposed to go fast in and when you slow down for platforming. How they change up in subtle however.
And I disagree with it what you consider "boring" and "at its peak". It's all fun.
-The ring system probably needs to be reworked. Rings bounce out of screen during bossfights in Mania, making them challenging, but they do make you feel too invincible during the levels themselves.
-Exploration shouldn't be required to get to a special stage, only to find the fastest or safest routes. So I still feel how Sonic 2 handled it (checkpoints) is better than Sonic 3&K and Mania (hidden Giant Rings).
Like someone said, you'll grow to learn when there are sections you're supposed to go fast in and when you slow down for platforming. How they change up in subtle however.
And I disagree with it what you consider "boring" and "at its peak". It's all fun.
Me!!! Jazz Jackrabbit was awesome!
To be honest I'm not sure if this thread really matters. The people who have the sonic sucks agenda are just going to skip all of the posters claiming otherwise and point to the people who don't quite get it as their proof, despite the fact it's a similar problem to have in sandbox games. I do hope you were reading the thread all the way OP and didn't just take the side of the sonic six crew. This goes double for you lurkers out there.