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[Aladin]

If anybody knows MS engineers, please forward them a request to have remote play feature supporting macbooks. Thank you.

 

[Strider Highwind]

So.. Have people actually moved on to comparing the GFLOP performance between the audio hardware now?

The dick measuring never ends

Dead serious fam, one of my degrees is in Audio Engineering and Production and this thread is a few pages of people arguing that ish when I don't even care lol. As long as it sounds good lol

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

So.. Have people actually moved on to comparing the GFLOP performance between the audio hardware now?

The dick measuring never ends

It's not really e-dick measuring tho, just trying to get the facts in order is all. It's just really fun to discuss the technical capabilities of the systems while keeping the record straight on where they actually sit WRT performance metrics.

The audio in particular is worth noting because a lot of people were assuming MS had a vastly weaker solution or would be resorting to using the GPU for audio processing, had large CPU overhead for audio etc. and it turns out none of these things are actually true. In fact in terms of raw audio capabilities their solution looks more capable than Sony's, tho in practice results should be very close between them and they'll each have some areas WRT to audio they're better at than the other (maybe sound sources for Sony's for example).

It helps knowing this stuff to ensure discussion around the systems can be checked against officially provided specifications rather than just speculation (no matter how well-researched the speculation is).

 

[longdi]

1. Phil said they would be flexible with the XSX pricing and were not going to lose the price war. Its not going to be higher than the PS5
2.The power difference isn't large enough for a 100 price difference.

Imo in covid times, everything counts. Even in normal times, consumers should be presented with value.

Let say PS5 is 18~30% behind in raw power, $499 v $599 is fair change. Let see how aggressive Phil gets.

 

[SlimySnake]

CUs have 25% better perf/clock compared to last gen
Dang. If that's true, that GPU is a beast. As a reference... That would mean the XSX GPU is about 35%-40% faster than a 2080Ti (bar RT). That is assuming the similar scaling as a 5700XT, and no bandwidth bottleneck.

Some other interesting stuff...;
Q: Can you stream into the GPU cache? A: Lots of programmable cache modes. Streaming modes, bypass modes, coherence modes.
I take that as a yes... What was being discussed in the Xbox Velocity architecture thread was whether you could stream directly from the SSD to the GPU cache. Seems like that is still a possibility.

Q: Coherency CPU and GPU? A: GPU can snoop CPU, reverse requires software
That is interesting. This means that whatever you would have needed to load on the 'slow' portion of the RAM for the CPU, the GPU has access to as well. Doesn't make the operation of the RAM any less complicated though.

umm do they mean last gen as in gcn or last gen as in rdna 1.0?

even if it is rdna 1.0, it will be on par with rtx 2080 ti which is a 17 tflops card at ingame clocks. actually it would be 15 tflops, so still not on par with rtx 2080ti. but very close which is insane.

 

[longdi]

CUs have 25% better perf/clock compared to last gen
Dang. If that's true, that GPU is a beast. As a reference... That would mean the XSX GPU is about 35%-40% faster than a 2080Ti (bar RT). That is assuming the similar scaling as a 5700XT, and no bandwidth bottleneck.

Some other interesting stuff...;
Q: Can you stream into the GPU cache? A: Lots of programmable cache modes. Streaming modes, bypass modes, coherence modes.
I take that as a yes... What was being discussed in the Xbox Velocity architecture thread was whether you could stream directly from the SSD to the GPU cache. Seems like that is still a possibility.

Q: Coherency CPU and GPU? A: GPU can snoop CPU, reverse requires software
That is interesting. This means that whatever you would have needed to load on the 'slow' portion of the RAM for the CPU, the GPU has access to as well. Doesn't make the operation of the RAM any less complicated though.

missed the juicy bit, the floor seems floored by Series X audio power.

09:41PM EDT - Q: Why do you need so much math for audio processing? A: 3D positional audio and spatial audio and real world spaces if you 300-400 audio sounds positional in 3D and want to start doing other effects on all samples, it gets very heavy compute. Imagine 20 people fighting in a cave and reflections with all sorts of noises

 

[MrFunSocks]

It's not really e-dick measuring tho, just trying to get the facts in order is all. It's just really fun to discuss the technical capabilities of the systems while keeping the record straight on where they actually sit WRT performance metrics.

The audio in particular is worth noting because a lot of people were assuming MS had a vastly weaker solution or would be resorting to using the GPU for audio processing, had large CPU overhead for audio etc. and it turns out none of these things are actually true. In fact in terms of raw audio capabilities their solution looks more capable than Sony's, tho in practice results should be very close between them and they'll each have some areas WRT to audio they're better at than the other (maybe sound sources for Sony's for example).

It helps knowing this stuff to ensure discussion around the systems can be checked against officially provided specifications rather than just speculation (no matter how well-researched the speculation is).

Let's be real though - it's being used for dick measuring now by a certain set of people, because they think that Tempest is now the secret sauce.

 

[SlimySnake]

The audio in particular is worth noting because a lot of people were assuming MS had a vastly weaker solution or would be resorting to using the GPU for audio processing, had large CPU overhead for audio etc. and it turns out none of these things are actually true. In fact in terms of raw audio capabilities their solution looks more capable than Sony's, tho in practice results should be very close between them and they'll each have some areas WRT to audio they're better at than the other (maybe sound sources for Sony's for example).

i was one of those people who though MS had a vastly weaker audio solution but this level of detail is what they shouldve revealed back when cerny touted the power of the tempest engine. this is phenomenal stuff.

the console is a fucking beast. they have really thought of everything. the ssd i/o as well. it's a damn shame that they are not using anything for the first 3 years. their hardware team was let down by their software team this time around, and i really hope they get some next gen third party games early in the next year because now im tempted to buy it as my next gen third party console.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Microsoft have already demoed upcoming things like the GPU not needing to render off-screen/out of view/etc polygons FYI. Can't remember what the demo was called but it had a few rooms with different statues in them, and the demo showed exactly what was being rendered and when, and as soon as something obstructed even a tiny piece of the statue the GPU stopped rendering that part. There were various levels of accuracy for it as well IIRC, based on how many triangles were used.

Not relating to your post at all now: it's funny how all of a sudden the Tempest audio thing is the big secret sauce in here hahaha. Not the Geometry Engine anymore, that's old news. Now that we know the Xbox has one too, it's all about that Tempest engine that can now also act as a secret GPU lol.

Yeah, I just watched a good portion of the video, very interesting stuff. However the method he uses to achieve the culling is entirely different from how the PS5 is handling it. In the demo, he achieves the culling through use of "meshlets" or "mesh shaders" and this is done at a software level not hardware and it's impressive. However there are costs to this method, which he details in the video. I'm not going to begin typing them out since it's stuff I don't know too much about and there's way too much technical jargon lol

The PS5 method of handling the different types of culling is done through allowing full control of the "traditional" graphics pipeline and this is achieved on a hardware level through the GE. The engineer in the technical video states that it's "tough" beating hardware accelerated methods (which PS5 has btw) and that you should expect the hardware (Series X hardware he is referring to, I think) to handle back-face, zero area and frustum culling.

So what's the difference? Judging from the information from the video, achieving culling through use of meshlets can be tough depending on what type of culling you want to implement. The hardware based method is easier with less costs. So the question is how effective is the Series X hardware at things like culling and does it allow developers full control of rendering pipeline? I don't know as Microsoft hasn't revealed anything about it yet, Thic mentioned that the Series X GPU does have a multi-core command processor unit so maybe that will allow it. As of the now PS5's method seems more straight forward and easier, but I could be wrong. Maybe someone with more knowledge like geordiemp could elaborate?

Btw you can watch the video here.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Let's be real though - it's being used for dick measuring now by a certain set of people, because they think that Tempest is now the secret sauce.

Lol well tbf we're not 100% in the know of all of Tempest's given customizations, but at the end of the day it's going to be difficult to use it for something besides audio given that's its primary purpose. It wouldn't be unprecedented though; the Saturn had games like Shining Force III use its audio processor for some non-audio tasks if you can believe it!

i was one of those people who though MS had a vastly weaker audio solution but this level of detail is what they shouldve revealed back when cerny touted the power of the tempest engine. this is phenomenal stuff.

the console is a fucking beast. they have really thought of everything. the ssd i/o as well. it's a damn shame that they are not using anything for the first 3 years. their hardware team was let down by their software team this time around, and i really hope they get some next gen third party games early in the next year because now im tempted to buy it as my next gen third party console.

TBH can't blame you for that; MS was really low-key about a lot of Series X specs early on aside from TFs and only kinda started being more prominent with other things (mainly XvA) after Road to PS5 was shifting discussion to the SSDs. But yeah, they have a very capable audio solution and at worst it seems just virtually tied with Sony's solution in almost all areas. At best, it seems somewhat superior at least in terms of raw power, but there may be some features Sony's does better and vice-versa.

I don't think we'll need to wait 3 years (hopefully); "even" games like FS2020 should be able to flex Series X's muscle once that gets its port to the system. I doubt how much Halo Infinite will even with the delay TBH, tho the delay helps. Games like Hellblade 2 have a realistic chance of coming out around early half 2022, latter half 2022 at latest. And maybe there'll be a few more 3rd-party next-gen exclusives that push the system in interesting ways as well.

@Dan_of_Rivia I don't think what you're stating is quite right. Mesh shaders allow full programmability, something primitive shaders lacked. We don't know the full extent of Sony's work on their PS but I'd assume if full programmability at the hardware level were a thing they'd just of gone with Mesh Shaders no?

I don't think Mesh Shaders being programmable means they are necessarily affording only a software-based approach. FWIW in terms of mesh group sizes Series X has 2x as many as Nvidia GPUs on that front, if that adds anything to the discussion.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Yeah, I just watched a good portion of the video, very interesting stuff. However the method he uses to achieve the culling is entirely different from how the PS5 is handling it. In the demo, he achieves the culling through use of "meshlets" or "mesh shaders" and this is done at a software level not hardware and it's impressive. However there are costs to this method, which he details in the video. I'm not going to begin typing them out since it's stuff I don't know too much about and there's way too much technical jargon lol

The PS5 method of handling the different types of culling is done through allowing full control of the "traditional" graphics pipeline and this is achieved on a hardware level through the GE. The engineer in the technical video states that it's "tough" beating hardware accelerated methods (which PS5 has btw) and that you should expect the hardware (Series X hardware he is referring to, I think) to handle back-face, zero area and frustum culling.

So what's the difference? Judging from the information from the video, achieving culling through use of meshlets can be tough depending on what type of culling you want to implement. The hardware based method is easier with less costs. So the question is how effective is the Series X hardware at things like culling and does it allow developers full control of rendering pipeline? I don't know as Microsoft hasn't revealed anything about it yet, Thic mentioned that the Series X GPU does have a multi-core command processor unit so maybe that will allow it. As of the now PS5's method seems more straight forward and easier, but I could be wrong. Maybe someone with more knowledge like geordiemp could elaborate?

Btw you can watch the video here.

Thanks for finding the video. I dare say like with most other things between these consoles, they'll both be doing the same thing.

 

[SlimySnake]

If the 25% IPC gains over RDNA 1.0 is true, this effectively makes it a 15 tflops rdna 1.0 GPU or 50% more powerful than a 5700xt. I am going to put on my conspiracy theory hat, and try to reconcile why we might be seeing a 1440p vs native 4k difference between the two consoles. This is just an exercise, not trying to start something, so dont get triggered.

- If the Xbox is indeed true rdna 2.0 and PS5 is rdna 1.0 and borrowing rdna 2.0 features like RT like that spanish PS5 principal engineer said, it's possible the PS5 might not get these IPC gains. So right off the bat, the ps5 is 50% weaker instead of the 18% tflops figure suggests.
- We know from simulating gonzalo charts that the 5700xt is not very good at scaling performance as you increase clocks, it's not 1:1 and the curve starts to flatten as you approach 2.15 ghz offering roughly 13% more performance for 19% more clockspeeds. its safe to assume that the 22% boost in PS5 clockspeeds will only offer around 15% more performance, leaving 8% on the table which gives us 9.3 tflops of performance. again, only if we assume ps5 isnt getting rdna 2.0 IPC gains. i feel like i have to keep saying this.

- we are still only at around 62%. We can add 10-15% for VRS which may or may not be in the PS5. that gets us to 75%
- the only thing thats left is ram bandwidth, but i dont see that being a bottleneck keeping the ps5 resolution down to 1440p 60 fps.

that still doesnt get us all the way to the ridiculous 100% increase in performance Dusk Golem's sources are suggesting, but this scenario is the only way we can even come close to the insane gap in performance he's reporting. Mark Cerny better be sure that his console is getting those rdna 2.0 IPC gains because even if hes able to get 1:1 performance out of the 2.23 ghz clocks, those 25% gains in IPC are going to add up to the 18% gap in tflops fast with vrs pushing it over 50%.

If only sony did a breakdown like this and we actually saw some games running, we wouldnt have to do math at 1AM in the morning trying to make sense of senseless rumors.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

If the 25% IPC gains over RDNA 1.0 is true, this effectively makes it a 15 tflops rdna 1.0 GPU or 50% more powerful than a 5700xt. I am going to put on my conspiracy theory hat, and try to reconcile why we might be seeing a 1440p vs native 4k difference between the two consoles. This is just an exercise, not trying to start something, so dont get triggered.

- If the Xbox is indeed true rdna 2.0 and PS5 is rdna 1.0 and borrowing rdna 2.0 features like RT like that spanish PS5 principal engineer said, it's possible the PS5 might not get these IPC gains. So right off the bat, the ps5 is 50% weaker instead of the 18% tflops figure suggests.
- We know from simulating gonzalo charts that the 5700xt is not very good at scaling performance as you increase clocks, it's not 1:1 and the curve starts to flatten as you approach 2.15 ghz offering roughly 13% more performance for 19% more clockspeeds. its safe to assume that the 22% boost in PS5 clockspeeds will only offer around 15% more performance, leaving 8% on the table which gives us 9.3 tflops of performance. again, only if we assume ps5 isnt getting rdna 2.0 IPC gains. i feel like i have to keep saying this.

- we are still only at around 62%. We can add 10-15% for VRS which may or may not be in the PS5. that gets us to 75%
- the only thing thats left is ram bandwidth, but i dont see that being a bottleneck keeping the ps5 resolution down to 1440p 60 fps.

that still doesnt get us all the way to the ridiculous 100% increase in performance Dusk Golem's sources are suggesting, but this scenario is the only way we can even come close to the insane gap in performance he's reporting. Mark Cerny better be sure that his console is getting those rdna 2.0 IPC gains because even if hes able to get 1:1 performance out of the 2.23 ghz clocks, those 25% gains in IPC are going to add up to the 18% gap in tflops fast with vrs pushing it over 50%.

If only sony did a breakdown like this and we actually saw some games running, we wouldnt have to do math at 1AM in the morning trying to make sense of senseless rumors.

The PS5 is RDNA2, you aren't getting those clocks etc with RDNA1, stop falling for the BS.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Is there any evidence at all to support the XSX being RDNA2 and the PS5 only being RDNA1 though?

 

[MasterCornholio]

The PS5 is RDNA2, you aren't getting those clocks etc with RDNA1, stop falling for the BS.

I believe I heard Mark say that the CUs were RDNA2.

PS5’s AMD RDNA 2 GPU is fitted with 36 CUs at up to 2.23GHz

Let's hope AMD can break the 2GHz barrier on PC, too

www.pcgamesn.com

“We’ve built a GPU with 36 CUs,” Mark Cerny says during a PS5 tech deep dive. “Mind you, RDNA 2 CUs are large, each has 62% more transistors than the CUs that we were using on PlayStation 4. So if we compare transistor counts, 36 RDNA 2 CUs, equates to roughly 58 PS4 CUs.

I'm no tech expert but I'm assuming that the IPC gains fine from the CUs themselves?

 

[thurnishaleygw]

It's still different from what sound cards used to do. I'm not sure where are those specialized HRTF applications are used and by whom, it's something as gamers we're not used to. It should be a massive jump in audio quality, and DICE, as a 3rd party, already planning to fully utilize it, and EA are one of the best in the industry when it comes to sounds and audio.

Still, not all players use headsets, so it's not smart to force it and spike the prices up like kinect.

thurnishaleygw has experience in music and HRTF stuff, he might chim in and enlighten us.

The fact that on the PC space we have moved from having dedicated audio cards is actually a big gripe of mine, since the standard audio on most PCs leaves a lot to be desired. But that's just a pet peeve, I digress.

I was pleased to see that the audio capabilities of the Series X are not too shabby either. We knew Tempest is good, but the Microsoft solution is not bad either, It definitely has some horsepower (very pleased about them having a specific engine for convolution, that is such a crucial part for the illusion of presence). For me, the key difference is, as with most of the philosophy behind the design of both consoles, the fact that Sony has gone a little bit the extra mile for immersion, hence the usage of different HRTF profiles and supporting it on an algorithmic basis. And it may seem like a harder thing to sell than graphics, but, if they do a good job of having available a good chunk of HRTF profiles covering a wide spectrum of people, trust me, it's going to be an easy sell. Of course, at the end of the day it also comes down to the developers and their work with it, but, given the fact that this last generation there was not really that much going on in the audio side of things, no big leaps, I am 100% sure that the audio guys working on next-gen stuff are more than willing to put in the effort. They definitely have nice tools on both consoles.

 

[onQ123]

Seems like MS even out-engineered the Tempest Engine.
Sony is really expert in upselling their secret sauce.

I'm pretty sure PS5 also have DSPs that's dedicated audio hardware

So, this is it then. Mentioned it few times

Extrapolated from RDNA1:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

I was about to make this post (Actually I made the post but with less detail & was about to go into detail but I'm glad I seen your post before I finish typing lol

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Why the correlation between frequency and yields? Never heard of this before, even back when I worked at a semiconductor factory.

Because the higher the frequency the higher the chance of instability, and with the silicon lottery at play unstable behavior manifests itself greatly and at different points per chip as you push the frequency up. A fine example was my old 2600k, no matter how much voltage and cooling I pushed at that chip it wouldn't run stable over 4.4Ghz, other people were stable at 4.6Ghz, while others were stable at 4.8Ghz with equal voltage and cooling as me.

People incorrectly assume Sony will have greater yields than Microsoft here, I would bet money against it. With the frequency target Sony is going for each chip has to basically be perfect. Microsoft isn't pushing their frequency so instability won't be an issue, the only issue with yields they could possibly have are defective CU's beyond the typical 4, but that's no different than CU yield disables for any other console.

Sony has two fronts they have to worry about for yields, frequency stability and CU's, Microsoft only has to worry about CU's.

 

[longdi]

I'm pretty sure PS5 also have DSPs that's dedicated audio hardware

I was about to make this post (Actually I made the post but with less detail & was about to go into detail but I'm glad I seen your post before I finish typing lol

I guess MS was bemused by the Tempest Engine hyping, despite they have the stronger audio compute which we know of now.
I mean audio is just 100~150GF in both of them, lotsa spare change.

As for that post, it is assuming that PS5 will sustain 2.23ghz in all scenarios.
And do we know PS5 ROP count yet?
Sony still so quiet on specs breakdown...

 

[tryDEATH]

Xbox over here water boarding people with information about their utterly ridiculous beast of a system and all we got from Sony so far is their fetishization of a SSD and an Audio engine that are tertiary and even quaternary elements of a system that people have been going on for ages now including this thread.

Overall very appreciative of Xbox transparency with the info we have been getting from them as they try to eliminate any doubt over the real power of the system and not hiding behind some powerful secret sauce. Their approach to this console launch has been executed to perfection and has been a complete 180° after the shit show that Mattrick presented.

Can't wait to get my hands on it.

 

[sinnergy]

So now the audio war has begun? Yet most play on shitty TV speakers .?

 

[FeiRR]

Xbox over here water boarding people with information about their utterly ridiculous beast of a system and all we got from Sony so far is their fetishization of a SSD and an Audio engine that are tertiary and even quaternary elements of a system that people have been going on for ages now including this thread.

Overall very appreciative of Xbox transparency with the info we have been getting from them as they try to eliminate any doubt over the real power of the system and not hiding behind some powerful secret sauce. Their approach to this console launch has been executed to perfection and has been a complete 180° after the shit show that Mattrick presented.

Can't wait to get my hands on it.

What games can't you wait to play on your brand new all-American console system?

 

[Thicc Enigma]

Xbox over here water boarding people with information about their utterly ridiculous beast of a system and all we got from Sony so far is their fetishization of a SSD and an Audio engine that are tertiary and even quaternary elements of a system that people have been going on for ages now including this thread.

Overall very appreciative of Xbox transparency with the info we have been getting from them as they try to eliminate any doubt over the real power of the system and not hiding behind some powerful secret sauce. Their approach to this console launch has been executed to perfection and has been a complete 180° after the shit show that Mattrick presented.

Can't wait to get my hands on it.

I see right through you

 

[Thugnificient]

35-40% faster than a 2080 Ti.

Console fanboys fall for this every gen.

 

[Redlight]

1. Phil said they would be flexible with the XSX pricing and were not going to lose the price war. Its not going to be higher than the PS5
2.The power difference isn't large enough for a 100 price difference.

I've been wondering about that recently. He originally said...

"I would say a learning from the Xbox One generation is we will not be out of position on power or price."

Is it possible that he's talking about those points separately? Most power with Series X, best price with Series S?

 

[tryDEATH]

What games can't you wait to play on your brand new all-American console system?

All the games that come out as they will be best played on the Series X, if you must ask.

I see right through you

You can't see through me, but you can probably hear right around me with that mind boggling TEMPEST audio engine that going to blow off our clothes when we hear it

 

[Elog]

There was less 'news' at this talk than I would have hoped for :/

What we got though:

1) Really impressive system!
2) Verification of hardware support for VRS
3) Data regarding RT but the metrics are not really helpful since they are not apples to apples with the Nvidia 20xx series cards - so we are still to some extent in the dark regarding capability here
4) We got the layout of the GPU including the dual CUs - standard GE in line with RDNA1

For those making comparisons with the PS5 regarding ROPs etc - we need to be careful. Playstation has done several changes to the GPU layout in the past - including the actual CUs as such. We need a PS5 teardown before making any comparisons - and that can go both ways in relationship to what the XSX has done.

 

[TBiddy]

Didn't Cerny say that Tempest had the equivalent of the PS4 CPU cluster in performance?

 

[Elog]

@Dan_of_Rivia I don't think what you're stating is quite right. Mesh shaders allow full programmability, something primitive shaders lacked. We don't know the full extent of Sony's work on their PS but I'd assume if full programmability at the hardware level were a thing they'd just of gone with Mesh Shaders no?

I don't think Mesh Shaders being programmable means they are necessarily affording only a software-based approach. FWIW in terms of mesh group sizes Series X has 2x as many as Nvidia GPUs on that front, if that adds anything to the discussion.

The main reason why PC GPUs work on the shader part of the pipeline is because such hardware can be used within the framework of the current engines while doing shaders with a minimum of changes to code and API sets.

Doing culling and priorities primarily at the GE level is much more efficient for several reasons but have fairly significant changes to how an engine works - and can consequently result in poor results with older titles for example - and that is problematic since legacy title FPS is for some mysterious reason how GPUs are measured....

 

[Gediminas]

Imo in covid times, everything counts. Even in normal times, consumers should be presented with value.

Let say PS5 is 18~30% behind in raw power, $499 v $599 is fair change. Let see how aggressive Phil gets.

lets say PS5 is 0-18% behind in raw power, so 499$ vs 599$ does not look so sexy in this time of age. Phil said that they are not interested to sold consoles, so 599$ it is.
lets see what PS5 DE will cost? 399$, 449$?

I guess MS was bemused by the Tempest Engine hyping, despite they have the stronger audio compute which we know of now.
I mean audio is just 100~150GF in both of them, lotsa spare change.

As for that post, it is assuming that PS5 will sustain 2.23ghz in all scenarios.
And do we know PS5 ROP count yet?
Sony still so quiet on specs breakdown...

stronger? you mean quality type of stronger, or like hot air - number type stronger?

 

[phil_t98]

lets say PS5 is 0-18% behind in raw power, so 499$ vs 599$ does not look so sexy in this time of age. Phil said that they are not interested to sold consoles, so 599$ it is.
lets see what PS5 DE will cost? 399$, 449$?



stronger? you mean quality type of stronger, or like hot air - number type stronger?

Dont forget that additional cost fo that super fast SSD may make it more expensive. They have a tech that’s not even out yet in the PC world and that will come at a premium cost also

 

[ZywyPL]

So, by the look of it, Series X will be a real...

Spoiler

B    T
 E  S
  A
 E  S
B    T

 

[TBiddy]

lets say PS5 is 0-18% behind in raw power, so 499$ vs 599$ does not look so sexy in this time of age. Phil said that they are not interested to sold consoles, so 599$ it is.
lets see what PS5 DE will cost? 399$, 449$?

You really think the PS5 DE will be up to 200$ cheaper than the XSX?

 

[Dr Bass]

All of this sounds great.

Let's see the Hot Games 2020 now.

 

[YoodlePro]

I guess MS was bemused by the Tempest Engine hyping, despite they have the stronger audio compute which we know of now.
I mean audio is just 100~150GF in both of them, lotsa spare change.

As for that post, it is assuming that PS5 will sustain 2.23ghz in all scenarios.
And do we know PS5 ROP count yet?
Sony still so quiet on specs breakdown...

Come on dude, my eyes can only roll so much, how is it stronger than the tempest engine since we were told it's as powerful as the entire PS4 CPU stack, and we don't even know the breakdown yet.

I swear people lose their minds with speculation whenever MS throws a bone. Smh

 

[TBiddy]

Come on dude, my eyes can only roll so much, how is it stronger than the tempest engine since we were told it's as powerful as the entire PS4 CPU stack, and we don't even know the breakdown yet.

I swear people lose their minds with speculation whenever MS throws a bone. Smh

The audio chip in the XSX is as strong as the CPU stack in the X1X.

I don't necessarily think that it's better, per se.

 

[Sony]

I hope DF do a video on this. The Series X is more capable than I thought. Especially in the audio department. Such a shame we haven't seen software so far do it justice.

 

[DavidGzz]

the console is a fucking beast. they have really thought of everything. the ssd i/o as well. it's a damn shame that they are not using anything for the first 3 years. their hardware team was let down by their software team this time around, and i really hope they get some next gen third party games early in the next year because now im tempted to buy it as my next gen third party console.

I think it's 2 years and that only applies to XGS and didn't MS say it isn't exactly a mandate? I don't remember but I thought they were leaving up to each individual studio, just suggesting it.

 

[pasterpl]

What games can't you wait to play on your brand new all-American console system?

the best possible version of all 3rd party games, all xbone games in enhanced versions, all of ms new releases cross gen as well as the next gen only ones. Lots of games to play.

 

[onQ123]

I guess MS was bemused by the Tempest Engine hyping, despite they have the stronger audio compute which we know of now.
I mean audio is just 100~150GF in both of them, lotsa spare change.

As for that post, it is assuming that PS5 will sustain 2.23ghz in all scenarios.
And do we know PS5 ROP count yet?
Sony still so quiet on specs breakdown...

It has to be at least 64 ROPS for BC with PS4 Pro

 

[MrFunSocks]

Come on dude, my eyes can only roll so much, how is it stronger than the tempest engine since we were told it's as powerful as the entire PS4 CPU stack, and we don't even know the breakdown yet.

I swear people lose their minds with speculation whenever MS throws a bone. Smh

Well going by MS's numbers theirs is more powerful than the "entire PS4 CPU stack" apparently, so there's that.

 

[Zathalus]

If the 25% IPC gains over RDNA 1.0 is true, this effectively makes it a 15 tflops rdna 1.0 GPU or 50% more powerful than a 5700xt. I am going to put on my conspiracy theory hat, and try to reconcile why we might be seeing a 1440p vs native 4k difference between the two consoles. This is just an exercise, not trying to start something, so dont get triggered.

- If the Xbox is indeed true rdna 2.0 and PS5 is rdna 1.0 and borrowing rdna 2.0 features like RT like that spanish PS5 principal engineer said, it's possible the PS5 might not get these IPC gains. So right off the bat, the ps5 is 50% weaker instead of the 18% tflops figure suggests.

Both the Xbox and PS5 are RDNA 2, we have multiple statements from Sony, Microsoft, and AMD indicating as such. That PS5 engineer confirmed he mispoke and clarified the PS5 had 1 less feature then stock RDNA2 but several others that were not. In terms of IPC both consoles are going to be close.

- We know from simulating gonzalo charts that the 5700xt is not very good at scaling performance as you increase clocks, it's not 1:1 and the curve starts to flatten as you approach 2.15 ghz offering roughly 13% more performance for 19% more clockspeeds. its safe to assume that the 22% boost in PS5 clockspeeds will only offer around 15% more performance, leaving 8% on the table which gives us 9.3 tflops of performance. again, only if we assume ps5 isnt getting rdna 2.0 IPC gains. i feel like i have to keep saying this.

You can't compare RDNA 1 vs RDNA 2 clock scaling, they are different architectures running on different nodes. The 5700 XT is already power limited and running into chip logic issues. A better comparision would be the 5700 non-XT, that has much better MHZ scaling due to it's lower frequency, see here. 16% frequency jump for 10-20% gains in gaming. From everything AMD has announced so far, RDNA 2 is expected to scale much higher with frequency then RDNA 1.

Furthermore If we go down the rabbit hole of CU vs MHZ, recall that increasing the CU count to increase TFLOP is not a linear increase either. Compare the 2080 vs the 2080ti, 50% more CUs for 17% extra performance. For AMD, just compare the R9 390X vs the Fury X, 41% increased CU count for 23% increased performance. This is partially related to a concept in computing called Amdahl's law. You can read more about it here. Basically the higher the parallelization of a workload (such as thousands of GPU CUs) the harder it is to extract perfect performance from it.

The 18% number that is being thrown around for the difference in performance in the XSX and PS5 is purely theoretical and is based on the raw TFLOP numbers. In reality, the difference might even be smaller then that. The PS5 GPU does have advantages in Pixel fill rate and triangle culling as well.

- we are still only at around 62%. We can add 10-15% for VRS which may or may not be in the PS5. that gets us to 75%

It should be in the PS5, it's a hardware feature of RDNA 2. Even Turing has had it for the past 2 years.

If only sony did a breakdown like this and we actually saw some games running, we wouldnt have to do math at 1AM in the morning trying to make sense of senseless rumors.

Errr, they did do a breakdown and we have seen some games runnning. Mark Cerny was quite clear in his assessment of how much larger the CUs are of RDNA 2. We even had 4k/60FPS with RT footage from GT7. It can't get much clearer then that.

 

[Rikkori]

At the end of the day anyone interested in the best quality surround sound knows who does it better - Xbox. Mostly because they have decided to actually put an emphasis on it and support it properly (including with Dolby Atmos). Sony wants to focus on "3D stereo" in headphones - that's fine, but if you have a nice high-end surround sound setup don't expect more than 5.1/7.1 from Sony, they don't care. All the gflops in the world will not help you have height & overhead speaker info, so the tempest is constrained to a tea-pot. Big whoop.

As far as the RT performance is concerned, obviously we are not going to get better than Nvidia performance. What I'm more interested in though is if the different choice they made gives them an advantage in rasterisation. If given the choice I'd still choose more rasterisation performance over better RTRT performance simply because there's more non-RT games I like playing & re-playing and wouldn't mind reaching 8K on a single-GPU in some of them.

 

[prinz_valium]

Lol well tbf we're not 100% in the know of all of Tempest's given customizations, but at the end of the day it's going to be difficult to use it for something besides audio given that's its primary purpose. It wouldn't be unprecedented though; the Saturn had games like Shining Force III use its audio processor for some non-audio tasks if you can believe it!

Because Sony never provides detailed information about their console unlike Microsoft.
They always just give some metrics at best.

 

[longdi]

Come on dude, my eyes can only roll so much, how is it stronger than the tempest engine since we were told it's as powerful as the entire PS4 CPU stack, and we don't even know the breakdown yet.

I swear people lose their minds with speculation whenever MS throws a bone. Smh

Posted previous page back, what we know so far....points as so...

Sony claims TE is roughly an entire PS4 cpu (1.6ghz 8 jagcores)
MS claims XSX-a is more powerful then entire X1X cpu. (2.6ghz 8 jagcores)

 

[YoodlePro]

Well going by MS's numbers theirs is more powerful than the "entire PS4 CPU stack" apparently, so there's that.

I'm not saying it won't be more powerful numbers wise, I'm saying we're back to saying "omg it's going to DEMOLISH the competition, MS BIG PP" when the truth is we don't even know anything yet about the innards of the competition"

 

[Shmunter]

Any videos?

 

[geordiemp]

Series X has a multi-core command processor unit, maybe that provides the "full programmability" of the GE similar to what Sony mentioned? The RGT rumor you're referring to probably points to some additional foveated rendering features on PS5 which would be beneficial for PSVR 2.0 for example.

Aside that, also have to readjust the audio calculations. So Sony actually compared Tempest Engine to PS4 CPU cluster, which was 102.4 GFLOPs iirc. So Tempest Engine provides around that much (maybe slightly more) in terms of raw power. But that also would mean Series X's audio is actually the more capable of the two in terms of raw performance, at around anywhere between 147.2 GLOPs (actually somewhat more). And it seems to offload more or less all of the audio tasks to its audio block, similar in idea to Sony's PS5. Finding that out surprised me.

So it'd seem MS's audio solution is about 50% more powerful than Sony's in raw numbers, anyway. It's obviously not designed to mimic a SPE though, also no figures on how much bandwidth it would need on the bus at peak (i.e is it same as Tempest's 20 GB/s, greater, or less?).



Yes, about 104.2 GFLOPs, maybe slightly more (could be 110 GFLOPs for example), maybe slightly less (could be 100 GFLOPs). One X's CPU was 147.2 GFLOPs, MS says thiers is more than that, so being conservative could be say 150+ GFLOPs for example.

So in raw power MS's is more capable of the two but Sony did a much better job talking about their audio setup plus they have a history in audio electronics so most people were going to assume theirs was the most powerful anyway (and MS didn't even give clear reference numbers for theirs until literally today xD).

Regardless tho both systems have really strong audio capabilities and did a lot of customizations to hit their targets.

You dont measure Audio if flops, these simple comparisons are for given for talks.

Audio uses frequency domain and FFT and is better suited to specialisised logic which is much more efficient than any CPU or GPU, so all the comparisons to CPUs are just for marketing and dont apply.

I assume both have cell like SPUs which each FFT for breakfast, but the Flops numbers are just silly.

You could have 10 x more flops and a dedicacted FFT type SPU would walk it easily.

 

[llien]

Did they say "25% faster than last gen" or "up to 25% faster"?

 

[eastwood333]

I've been wondering about that recently. He originally said...

"I would say a learning from the Xbox One generation is we will not be out of position on power or price."

Is it possible that he's talking about those points separately? Most power with Series X, best price with Series S?

Possibly, but after the disaster of the Xbox One launching one hundred bucks more than the PS4, i can't see them ever doing that again. Then you go by the rumors from some well respected insiders about XSX being even cheaper than the PS5.

I think MS is against a wall here and are desperate to gain back marketshare and Phil has hinted that he has Satya(MS CEO) full support. I think MS can afford to take a hit and must given the sheer dominance of Sony this gen.

I 100% believe XSX will be the same price as PS5, or lower. XSS will be 200 bucks lower than what ever the XSX/PS5 price is.