Chris_Rivera
Member
Maybe
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PS5 Die Shot has been revealed
- Thread starter LivingD3AD
- Start date
HoofHearted
Member
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FatKingBallman
Banned
Bua somehow VRS is working better on PS5 than on XSX. It does supporting it, at least software wise
Software-based Variable Rate Shading in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare
https://research.activision.com/publications/2020-09/software-based-variable-rate-shading-in-call-of-duty--modern-war#:~:text=This%20lecture%20covers%20a%20novel,a%20resolution%20matching%20image%20frequency
Physiognomonics
Member
They have mostly looked at the CPU in details until now. The most interesting parts (Geometry engine and custom I/O) have being mostly ignored.
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Iced Arcade
Member
You guys should try playing games
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
It's part of the discussion I was having with eThomaz about whether or not XSX CUs were RDNA 2.0. I felt that considering the fact that we have new ray tracing accelerators in the TMUs which are part of CUs, the XSX CUs should be bigger than the RDNA 1.0 CUs.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nester99
Member
The truth of the matter is that both PS5 and the X|S are well made and outside of a passing interest in how they were made none of this really matters. It is going to be a great generation all around.
Gotcha
I have owned both since launch.
It’s very clear to me if I had to give one away which one I would part with. It shocked me but oh well. Won’t share my opinion because “what’s the point”
Popup
Member
It will be interesting to see if there is a different approach taken with the customisations on this die that may offer either a different method of achieving the same goals used on the other platforms (with regards to certain features) or maybe a different approach entirely, that is yet to be demonstrated so to speak.
I am mainly referring to I/o and texture streaming I suppose but there may be other novel approaches and features and there may not, I guess!
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DemonCleaner
Member
i see. yes they should (must) be bigger. aren't they?
to make matters more confusion: microsoft could very well use another CU layout than sony (for example without repiplineing for higher clocks) and they still both could have the exact same texture unit (and therefore ray accelerator) design.
ethomaz
Banned
Silicon wise the CUs and TMUs are separated.
Each CU has it own TMU complex that are on it side not inside it.
In reality we are calling it CU but it is probably called another name when split from the TMU and cache.
This is from RDNA.
AMD consider them a single unit but they are different parts in the silicon.. so you can increase the size of the TMU without affect the CU.
Or vice versa.
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Locuza
Member
To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...
news.xbox.com
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
MasterCornholio
Member
It would make sense for Sony not to delay the system if missing those features wouldn't be a disaster for them. Some people are acting like the consoles belong to two separate generations but that isn't the case otherwise Sony would have waited to include more RDNA2 features. Still in many ways it's different than the Xbox Series X and it appears to have some advantages compared to it.
Thank you for the reply and hopefully others don't harass you because of it. I certainly do appreciate it unlike some people here.
I'm not trolling at all i follow you on twitter and i have an absolute respect for what you say (and if you followed the thread you will find me saying this somewhere on here some pages ago)To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
oh nice to see finally a proof on the timing ,the graphic core!! I was speculating for days that Sony had to find their own solution to the mesh shader and RT obviously getting help from amd precisely because they had started development at least 1 year earlier than the Xbox. That would also explain AMD's reddit leak, wouldn't it?
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Superayate
Member
To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
Thanks a lot for all these explanations.
Locuza
Member
I know that you are not trolling.
It was a general information I wanted to share because multiple people started to word their question with "may I ask" as if I'm the president or technical lead of something.
I'm just a guy on the internet as many others here and I'm fully open to discussions and questions.
And don't worry I'm not a feeble flower or trigger happy rage baby, if I see unreasonable statements or questions I simply don't engage anymore.
___
The software specification of "Mesh Shaders" under DX12 is public however the features and limitations of Sony's "Primitive Shaders" are not.
Mesh Shaders or Primitive Shaders are just arbaritary words for some defined features.
There might not be even a real difference in practise.
In relation to the reddit leak, you would need to point me to it since I don't follow the website that much.
Lysandros
Member
What's the evidence about about the lack of INT8/4 support for PS5 is it the die shot? Some other twitter users like LeviathanGamer seem to think otherwise.To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
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Unfortunately it is true, and we know that trying to take base everything just on a nomenclature such as what can be rdna x.x is very reductive and potentially misleading especially if we are talking about custom gpus. For this we should move the discussion more on features than on an arbitrary name.I know that you are not trolling.
It was a general information I wanted to share because multiple people started to word their question with "may I ask" as if I'm the president or technical lead of something.
I'm just a guy on the internet as many others here and I'm fully open to discussions and questions.
And don't worry I'm not a feeble flower or trigger happy rage baby, if I see unreasonable statements or questions I simply don't engage anymore.
___
The software specification of "Mesh Shaders" under DX12 is public however the features and limitations of Sony's "Primitive Shaders" are not.
Mesh Shaders or Primitive Shaders are just arbaritary words for some defined features.
There might not be even a real difference in practise.
In relation to the reddit leak, you would need to point me to it since I don't follow the website that much.
the leak it comes directly from an AMD employee who was working on testing an amd prototype for Sony which many thought was the ps5.
There are several screenshots of the tests carried out I'm sure it won't be difficult for you to find them. Here is an article by eurogamer that explains a bit how the situation went.
In Theory: is PS5 powered by an AMD Gonzalo processor?
The first reveal - of sorts - for PlayStation 5 has been and gone, with Sony confirming specs including an octo-core Ze…
www.eurogamer.net
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
I don't think we have practical examples od what they bring to the table (except the elimination of what seems to be loading stuttering in control I believe).
And we may never have explicit cases were people can say something like "this game has better textures/geometry because of the io system in the ps5", then again, the extra speed could alleviate textures popin in games designed around such io performance, we shall see.
Locuza
Member
Such details are unfortunately not visible on die shots, at least not without a massive zoom factor.
I base it of a belly feeling because of some factors.
1.) Rosario Leonardi from Sony made the (now deleted) claim on twitter that there is "no ML stuff" on it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200715221634/https://twitter.com/ilMal3/status/1283524232933187593
2.) In an Interview David Cage from Quantic Dream claimed that the Xbox Series shader cores are more suitable for machine learning:
https://wccftech.com/david-cage-on-quantic-dream-future-next-gen-gaming-and-not-ruling-out-sequels/
3.) As far as I know Sony did never state anything in relation to machine learning, though from my perspective the feature is too important to simply not mention it.
The same lack of information was present on the VRS side of things which is now fairly certainly not supported on the PS5 hardware because of the visibly older Render Backend design on the die shot.
4.) The graphics core IP version is 10.0 according to older test leaks on GitHub from an AMD employee.
The first Navi GPU (RDNA1) was Navi10 which has the GC version 10.1.0 and it's not supporting dot-product instructions for INT8/4.
While ray tracing acceleration was included on the PS5, I'm bearish on the perspective that Sony also touched the ALUs to include ML instructions.
It's my personal perspective in that regard and not pure evidence.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.the leak it comes directly from an AMD employee who was working on testing an amd prototype for Sony which many thought was the ps5.
There are several screenshots of the tests carried out I'm sure it won't be difficult for you to find them. Here is an article by eurogamer that explains a bit how the situation went.
In Theory: is PS5 powered by an AMD Gonzalo processor?
The first reveal - of sorts - for PlayStation 5 has been and gone, with Sony confirming specs including an octo-core Ze…
FatKingBallman
Banned
You mean just on hardware level?
Looks like you were called on ERA
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Alder
Neo Member
MasterCornholio
Member
Lysandros
Member
Okay, i understand. Mainly based on your interpretation of these then. Thanks for the reply.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
One thing about all this is without chip design knowledge it hard to make any conclusions.
Interesting though that the ps5 chip looks just like an rdna2 chip. Why doesn't xbox, considering how much they brag about it, what, now rdna2 design isn't the best way?
Is there any latency advantage there in that design? Or some other efficiency to that setup?
Also hard to see but those channels between the ps5 ram and cpu etc seem bigger but maybe its the way its coloured, the seriex x ones seem closer together and less gap, could be wrong though.
Interesting though that the ps5 chip looks just like an rdna2 chip. Why doesn't xbox, considering how much they brag about it, what, now rdna2 design isn't the best way?
Is there any latency advantage there in that design? Or some other efficiency to that setup?
Also hard to see but those channels between the ps5 ram and cpu etc seem bigger but maybe its the way its coloured, the seriex x ones seem closer together and less gap, could be wrong though.
Locuza
Member
You mean just on hardware level?
Looks like you were called on ERA
Yes, for the hardware support multiple changes on the rasterization pipeline are necessary.
A software implementation can already work great on PS4/Xbox One hardware.
On ERA I did a posting but I was not pinged for questions and I don't have time to read each comment.
So if someone thinks I could help with something, the person needs to mention me directly so that I get a notice.
FatKingBallman
Banned
I think they didn't even watched your video there. LOL
They showed your previous tweets of your interpretation of the floor plan PS5 floor plan (and later you said you were wrong on this)
also that crappy RDNA 1.1 link. I think you should need explain some things to them ( of course if you want)
Loxus
Member
Does this card not have Infinity Cache?So there is no RX 6700 (aka Navi 22) coming from AMD?
40CUs just like PS5.
I mean how do you guys create these claims that are easily debunked before you post it?
Also, it has a similar die layout to PS5.
Even the ROPs.
So PS5 ROPs RDNA 2?
I can't keep up with this thread.
Loxus
Member
Alright, check this out guys.
I may not be technical knowing GPUs, but I'm good at analyzing as I'm an Architect.
Neither PS5 or XBSX are RDNA 1.
1) But if you look carefully at XBSX WGP, you will see one of the SPx32 is the same as PS5 while the other 3 are not the same but similar to RDNA1.
2) Also the TMU in both PS5 and XBSX are not the same, meaning one or the other RT implementation is different.
3) Plus, the ROPs in PS5 and RDNA 1 may be in the same area but there are arranged different.
I don't think anyone knows what an RDNA 2 WGP looks like.
All we have is this, which doesn't really say anything.
Until someone shows a die shot of RDNA 2.
All we can do is speculate.
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I'm happy to know that you arrived to my own conclusions! yes i did forget about Cage, at the marketing level it would be stupid not to publish such an important and above all so "famous" feature especially after brands like "Apple" have made the terminology "machine learning" into common use
SenjutsuSage
Banned
lol no you didn't!
He added one more piece.
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oh wow Stanard directly came in kickin'. The plot thickens.
That's tomorrow eurogamer news ))
the differences would seem greater than we thought
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated)Soethomaz , will you stop saying XS GPUs are RDNA1 based now or will you dismiss his opinion because he is a Microsoft employee?
.Case closed?
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
You know it doesn't work like that. That only applies to Microsoft and Sony are all liars.Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated)
Case closed?
I know that you are a good guy and you doing this to keep the situation calm in a convulsive thread. But you know better than me that things most likely aren't quite like that.Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated)
Case closed?
But if I no longer see people like John wick, assurdum, fat etc etc write nonsense I'll close it here too even though I'm and i was right all the time...and we will let the performances speak ... when the hw is exploited
case closed
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Of course that’s more interesting for some , for others that are positives while others focus on the negative.. I just like it to be all cleared .
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
He added one more piece.
Ethomaz is the greatest poster on GAF.
I refuse to believe he is a functioning adult with a job.
Im just waiting for the reveal that he is actually a mental patient that stole someones phone and lives under a bridge.
Garani
Member
File was canceled.
What did they say, that was wrong? Other than repeatedly telling you that you are wrong and that the PS5 is RDNA2 based?
Old Empire.
Member
Many have reading issues here, sadly.
If you read the quote from MS correctly, they outline the position/advantage least in their minds!!!
Quote
"Xbox Series X|S are the only next-generation consoles with full hardware support for all the RDNA 2 capabilities.
MS does not challenge the PS5 GPU not based on RDNA2 subset.
There position is the Series/ S are the only next gen consoles that fully hardware support all the features for RDNA2.
This quote seems to be right based on things we know. Since Sony themselves announced VRS not already there. They have a line in a blog post it be included later in a software update. It’s not VRS hardware RDNA2.
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I agree.
Garani
Member
Sony designed most of features in PS5 thats why they doesn't wait. Those features are made by first party programmers. Most of design came from programmers not silicon designers.
Offtop
ML means that human learn machine how to make some automated activities
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silent head
Member
The shader cores of the Xbox are also more suitable to machine learning, which could be an advantage if Microsoft succeeds in implementing an equivalent to Nvidia’s DLSS (an advanced neural network solution for AI).
Well they occur in Shader Cores. So the XSX has 97TOPs of INT4 and in theory the PS5 might have 82TOPs of INT4. The XSX has a compute advantage, so naturally it will have an advantage at this.
3.) As far as I know Sony did never state anything in relation to machine learning, though from my perspective the feature is too important to simply not mention it
97 vs 82. You can see the marketing issue with this? Especially if they are behind DirectML in SW, which is likely the case. To the average consumer 12 is not that much more than 10. They would likely shoot themselves in the foot.
Also notice how they did not reveal the Series S numbers either? That is because it is 32 TOPs of INT4.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Both are customised RDNA2. Period... else
“I did not watch many posters get banned face down in the mud for this to keep going in circles Smokey”
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that you probably have not followed (i know you have, but i let it go) the succession of events nor understood what experts said about the ps5 dieshot nor what Stanard said to ethomaz , those users had spit fanboy nonsense without having a minimum of knowledge on the topic and of the facts , and I'm being kind
stop it here and follow what is saying panajev
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Superayate
Member
In fact, for me infinity cache is not RDNA2 related, but it's navy 21 related. I'm pretty sure that with smaller GPU using RDNA 2, you'll have less IC quantity or no IC.
Old Empire.
Member
Neither PS5 or Series/ S has infinity cache that’s thoroughly known.
Microsoft never said the PS5 GPU is just a RDNA1 die. There believe is they got a GPU from AMD that hardware supports most of the capabilities that AMD provide with Q4 2020 RDNA2 release.
Right now that seems to be the case, since VRS not there to be used right away by devs teams making a third party version of the game for PS5.
There literally is no reason Sony would remove VRS functionality that some here suggested they did. MS waited a bit longer than Sony for the refresh upgrade. Will this pay off we just have to wait and see. RDNA2 gpus are not utilised fully by devs teams yet since the features are new upgrades and will take a bit longer to be selected. There used to the older techniques of building games, that's why we see minor differences visually this gen from last gen.