The 32X was actually a genius reaction to the Jaguar if Japan had actually backed it and supported west/japan dev deals and marketing across US/JP/EU, as the original Saturn specs were not that good and the similrities would have allowed the 32X to bridge developers to the Saturn, the Saturn could have been a modestly, sold modestly budgeted and marketed consoles that would grow over time and more high profile games were made for it, and it would have given Sega 2 paths of revenue to prepare for another bigger system down the line instead of trying to take a shoddy and weak foundation that was the saturn, tape it with bandaids, and make it a fire pit for cash,The Hardware was ready that's was messed SEGA America planning of the 32X and even back in 1993 Sega America had early Saturn development kits and set up the Away Team, Sure the Price was high but there was nothing SEGA America could do about that.
Sega was on the red line even before that statement and not as many people heard that as people think in retrospect.The Saturn hardware wasn't ready. The software wasn't ready. The tools weren't ready, and the price would be too high. Kalinske warned Sega of Japan about all of that, and I would say he was right. Bernie coming out and saying the Saturn wasn't their future in '96 meant almost 3 years of next to no revenue coming in!
Uh, Cd's could store pretty much everything including assets and background/foreground elements in game design, the flexibility, space, and ease of accessing the game data + Low price and new format supports for various video, graphical, and audio inputs/outputs are why CD's were adopted so widely, that was the goal for for games and even outside of games for decades, the fact CD could do all that, was cheap and easy to produce, and was easy to support and quickly evolved to be more interactive is why it dominated and even ended up upgrading to a point where CD-i was useless since CD-i was originally made to be a more interactive CD with flexible features and access to superiors video and audio formats and image codecs. By 1995 CD-i and all the other variations of CD were useless and everyone was using 3rd generation CD-R.Cds could store fmvs and more audio, that's about it.
No N64 had worse frame issues across the board, this revisionist nosnense about it only being some known popular and/or cult titles was debunked like 20 years ago.Or how the N64 must have slow frame rates. I can at least understand that since the games that suffer from this are some of it's more popular ones. But again it's not a universal thing. Again, it's only because of the popularity of the games that had these issues.
The Saturn not getting a Sonic Team-developed Sonic title was not Kalinske's fault. He couldn't go to Japan and put a gun to Yuji Naka's head and force them to make Sonic for the Saturn. Sonic Team wanted to make NiGHTS (this is why you sometimes have to outsource). Again, Kalinske recognized that Saturn needed a Sonic title and tried to fix the problem with Sonic Xtreme, but it just didn't work out. And even when STI wanted to use the NiGHTS engine, Sonic Team said no! Not Kalinske's fault.
Thanks to Tom we never got a 3D Sonic for the Saturn with STI inept handling of the project a project that was given to SEGA America in 1994 and by 1996 had little to show off and example of how not to run a studio or project: Lets have 2 teams making the same game for 4 different systems at various stages.
Well, they couldn't do anything about the sound chip but the cart size was their choice. They decided to be cheap and use a 8MB cart in late 97 where 12MB ones were pretty common and i think even 16MB ones existed. I mean, it's Duke Nukem, not some obscure indie title, they could do better than that.
But even then, i don't think the cart size was the issue at all. Midi/chip music takes very little space even on the N64. You have a game like Banjo-Kazooie with more than 250 music tracks (because a lot of the tracks have different variations) and the USF music game rip library is still less than 1MB. Goldeneye's music is 600KB.
Sega wasn't really a super star back then either, their console was more of a way to access games for extra money while popular games were licensed out to companies to put out on other systems, sometimes with input from them. Sonic 1 seemed to change Sega into really competing in the gaming space to attempt and fail to win. I don't think Sega really understood what to do in order to make it happen, especially Sega of Japan, who was furious about what SoA to start this new phase.Dreamcast had its work cut out from the get-go....Sega were on the ropes circa 1998 compared to where they were prior to the launch of the Genesis/Megadrive..
And Sega removing themselves from any real market presence for most of 1998 and 1999 (until Dreamcast marketing and launch) in the West was a complete disastrous move in hindsight. That was 12 - 18 months of mindshare and relevancy practically wiped out, while Sony and Nintendo solidified their brands with massive growth (TR3, RE2, Parasite Eve, Fear Effect, RE3, FF VIII etc. with Sony, Pokemon's popularity explosion for Nintendo).
I will never understand their decision to do that, they didn't even consider doing a few ports of some of the Japan-exclusive JRPGs/adventure games etc. to keep Western fans satiated.
In America mostly, and if Sega has focused on that market with limited scaling shipments in a few select European countries and a limited overall shipment in Japan instead of the SoJ Connected market nonsense Sega may have made enough of a comeback to try another console and then attempt a more WW release. Sega with Dreamcast basically lost everything in the casino and then bet their credit cards an a margin loan from the Casino on the same slot machine that made them lose everything the first time, this time by various loan sharks, and they had no income.1994 and never knew Saturn even existed, so it was a pretty long time away from the limelight. I think this was one of the key reasons why 1999 was such a successful year for Dreamcast. For most gamers at the time, it felt like a genuine comeback.
I think David Rosen (the man who had founded Sega) always thought that Sega should be a software house rather than getting into the world of hardware...
Nah, i already debunked this myth by giving many examples. Or maybe i was lucky and the vast majority of games i had on the system were all the games with smooth and stable framerates.No N64 had worse frame issues across the board, this revisionist nosnense about it only being some known popular and/or cult titles was debunked like 20 years ago.
So you going to tell me, that the commercially and domestically biggest franchise by Sega and the reason why Sega overtook Nintendo's market share for a short period of time wouldn't have helped them? The same franchise that just recently had a very successful movie. The same franchise that sold over 200 million games and despite some questionable entries is still very marketable after all these years. Wild theory!This nosnense about a 3D Sonic for the Saturn doing anything is something that has always puzzled me and seems to be a rabid fan dream. At best it would have sold more than Sonic R, Jam, and 3D Blast combined, which isn't saying much, it would barely move Saturns.
It sold less because Sonic 1 was a pack-in title. Super Mario Bros. 3 also sold less than Super Mario Bros. 1.the circumstances leading to Sonic 1's release and after it came out, and how Sega handled it, was never replicated, this is why Sonic 2, despite a more aggressive campaign sold like 65-70%~
HypothesisBy 1995 Sonic was a hype franchise with aggressive marketing for games, merchandise, comics, and TV but it didn't have the sales longevity or stabilization for a game like Sonic Xtreme to do anything for the Saturn even if they were to get it out before the end of the year or by holiday 1997.
That means every third Dreamcast owner had Sonic Adventure. That's good given the circumstances.Sonic Adventure still only sold around 2.5-3 million units across the Dreamcasts lifespan.
Shit, plenty of racers were near locked 30fps. RR64, wipeout, mk64, f zero x was locked 60. Doom 64 solid 30, ray man 2 in low res mode, Mario 64 ; we could go for days here. Star fox 64 until explosions filled the screen. Banjo kazooie is was pretty solid for the most part, tooie was the problem child.Nah, i already debunked this myth by giving many examples. Or maybe i was lucky and the vast majority of games i had on the system were all the games with smooth and stable framerates.
This is just naming known popular games that run well compared to the known popular games that don't. The N64 has over 300 games a lot of them have issues.Shit, plenty of racers were near locked 30fps. RR64, wipeout, mk64, f zero x was locked 60. Doom 64 solid 30, ray man 2 in low res mode, Mario 64 ; we could go for days here. Star fox 64 until explosions filled the screen. Banjo kazooie is was pretty solid for the most part, tooie was the problem child.
We are just saying bro, Saturn and PS were not immune to the slideshow effect. It’s not vastly worse on 64 ; if anything the big games like goldeneye and tooie run kinda bad because they’re ambitious. On Saturn and PS limitations were more evident so they were not pushed as hard. Saturn wipeout is crap. Ps1 Tony Hawk runs worse than 64! Every console has issues from game to game!This is just naming known popular games that run well compared to the known popular games that don't. The N64 has over 300 games a lot of them have issues.
Now with that said N64 (and don't want to go off on it too much as it's a Saturn thread) is not the worst FPS game console of that era that could do "real" 3D, that would be the 3DO. That slow CPu you can do tricks with it, you can pull some consistent FPS, but there are games were we are talking 5fps no exagerration to like 12fps and bouncing all over the place. N64 is not that bad.
TO be fair 3DO was made with the latest parts in 1992 for the time so it kind of jumped in very early on the CPU front.
You sound like you played all 300 games so you must know the exact ratio.You didn't debunk anything, it's not a myth, finding a few games matching the count of the games people usually mention isn't debunking if the average random game has issues in a 300 game library were most of the games are tiers C to D.
You ignore the fact that Sonic 1 sold so much because it was a pack-in title, just like the original Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World.You can ignore the fact but you went from 15+ with 6 million with a more aggressive campaign, and then it shrank all the way to selling less than 1 million for a game. Then you had 3 Saturn games that didn't maintain any of the hype so either
I don't, but I am going to ignore you as you are shitting up this thread with nonsense theories and borderline console warring. So, cheers.You can't ignore that 15 million Sonic buyers who were interested in the game dropped to 6 million for Sonic 2 in interest which dropped to below 3 million which dropped to below 2 million,
We are just saying bro, Saturn and PS were not immune to the slideshow effect. It’s not vastly worse on 64 ; if anything the big games like goldeneye and tooie run kinda bad because they’re ambitious. On Saturn and PS limitations were more evident so they were not pushed as hard. Saturn wipeout is crap. Ps1 Tony Hawk runs worse than 64! Every console has issues from game to game!
You don't seem familiar with the N64 library. You are just mentioning the same few games everyone is mentioning. And these are a small part of the system's best games.Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.
Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.
zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.
This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
You don't seem familiar with the N64 library. You are just mentioning the same few games everyone is mentioning. And these are a small part of the system's best games.
Did you just put quality in quotations when talking about Zelda, Goldeneye, Conker and banjo. They were Quality, not “quality”. Classics. Classics among classics.Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.
Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.
zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.
This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
Did you just put quality in quotations when talking about Zelda, Goldeneye, Conker and banjo. They were Quality, not “quality”. Classics. Classics among classics.
I’m not the biggest fan of ps1 but I’m not going to talk crap about some of its rpgs, Spyro, crash, mgs1, Ridge racer etc. And I never even had a Saturn, but I wish I did back then. Great contribution Daniel Thomas MacInnes btw. Makes me want to play Saturn for sure. Saturn has that cool factor.
Vastly worse is a gross exaggeration in my estimation, and I have over 60 n64 games atm. The myth that PS1 is buttery smooth is just that ; myth. Shit man, I remember frame dips in block torso and hands ff7 at points.
I think this thread has gone a bit long on this discussion, so I bow out. Will post on anything Saturn related
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Simpler times...lot of fun though
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Poor Sega. Politics and hubris, did them in, It wasn't the hardware. Sony was strong enough to survive and turn around their PS3 hubris and stumbles. That is the difference.
Saturn was more than capable and it's potential was left untapped. We only had glimpses.
This nosnense about a 3D Sonic for the Saturn doing anything is something that has always puzzled me and seems to be a rabid fan dream. At best it would have sold more than Sonic R, Jam, and 3D Blast combined, which isn't saying much, it would barely move Saturns.
That's surprising considering Nintendo released one of their biggest games in 94 with Donkey Kong Country. DKR was huge, it gave the SNES a boost in sales late in its life cycle.SEGA and Nintendo seeing big drops to their profits in 94/95 with a big surplus of unsold carts.
The FactsThat's surprising considering Nintendo released one of their biggest games in 94 with Donkey Kong Country. DKR was huge, it gave the SNES a boost in sales late in its life cycle.
Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
Backward Compatibility would have required the same (or highly compatible) components inside the console. It would have been complicated I think. In the end, it would have brought the console closer to what the MegaDrive+Mega-CD+32X actually offers. They needed the jump.Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slotHad they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slot
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...True, they really only needed to throw a Z80 in there, which should have been relatively cheap at that point.
Moore's law was really kicking back then, so probably the best solution for Sega would have been to wait another year to release the Saturn. Let the forward progression of technology allow them to easily best the PSX in specs a year later without requiring further losses. This assumes that they never released the 32x or any stop gap measure, and just chose to try and milk the 16bit era for another year.
Sega wasn't really a super star back then either, their console was more of a way to access games for extra money while popular games were licensed out to companies to put out on other systems, sometimes with input from them. Sonic 1 seemed to change Sega into really competing in the gaming space to attempt and fail to win. I don't think Sega really understood what to do in order to make it happen, especially Sega of Japan, who was furious about what SoA to start this new phase.
Because niche Japan exclusive games would cost money to translate for games that wouldn't, Jrpgs barely did anything on the PS1 outside FF and that's the console everyone had, the FF7 myth is a myth and it will always be a myth.
Plus, even at a basic break even goal Sega was in no position for those kind of games to sell, look at the best selling Saturn games outside japan, which weren't selling very well in the first place, it was sports, fighting which was oversaturated based on the Saturns sales performance, and some entries in already popular franchises and games bundled with the system.
As for market presence by 1998 Sega barely had market presence, they were in the red in every gaming segment they were in Portable, Education, Computer, Arcade, Console, they already had been reducing shelf presence and cut down store shipments of consoles, as well as software production and they were still losing money on the Saturn.
That near 2 year delay in really doing anything with the Saturn may be the only reason why we got the Dreamcast, especially in the quantity it sold hardware and software, which was released on margin combined with rich company exec and donor money.
And with that financial turmoil how could they fund a Crash 3, or GTA, or RRT4, or Tekken 3, or Twisted Metal 3 to pad out the Saturn inbetween that time? Wasting money to put out games that won't sell enough to cover costs on a system bleeding money?
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...
Backward Compatibility would have required the same (or highly compatible) components inside the console. It would have been complicated I think. In the end, it would have brought the console closer to what the MegaDrive+Mega-CD+32X actually offers. They needed the jump.
Which also sold gangbusters without bundles, and Mario isn't the only example here. Also keep in mind your argument is poor and your a coward, so you're bringing other console ips into this conversation but blaming me for "shitting up the thread" and console warring so you can escape. You're a sad excuse for a poster and can't even handle simple discourse.You ignore the fact that Sonic 1 sold so much because it was a pack-in title, just like the original Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World.
nonsense theories and borderline console warring
Sonic Adventure was not a pack-in title. Where do you get that from?
You got the wrong "your" there buddy. Yeah, you obviously don't get the point at all.and your a coward,
Your whole argument is that Sonic declined in sales, but you are ignoring the elephant in the room, that Sonic 1 was a pack-in title. It was sold with each Genesis at one point (Similar to how Wii Sports was sold with each Wii). It would have done good regardless but never it would've done 20 million (you are off by 5 million btw.) on its own merits.You're a sad excuse for a poster and can't even handle simple discourse.
Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.
Sonic Adv was a great game and DC version is basically just a remake of the Saturn version
You must have forgotten or aren't aware of the early marketing for 3D Blast before it was fully unraveled for the Saturn, sure it would have sold jsut based on being a proper game with likely decent marketing but it wouldn't have moved that many Saturns, the buyer base was already dropping like a rock, the lack of games that launched with the Saturn were mostly games that were alienative which is why a lot of people didn't buy a Saturn, Sonic would have only helped that a little bit.but the IP sells and many Sonic fans would have been looking forward to a 3D Sonic
Had they made the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, you would have a bridge right there for Megadrive/Genesis owners to walk across...(on the condition that the 32x was shelved completely and did not see the light of day...)
Agreed. But that would have also driven up the cost of the hardware, which was already dangerously expensive to begin with. And what really hurt Sega is that the Saturn's manufacturing price just couldn't come down to reach the mass-market level ($149-$199) necessary for success. That is, without taking massive (over $100/unit) losses on every sale, which is a pretty good way to kill your company.
If you added in a Genesis cartridge slot, you'd have to take out something else to balance the cost. And where do you cut? You'll weaken the hardware as a result and likely fall further behind your rivals.
Question is just what was it about the Jaguar that had Sega quaking in their boots, which brought about the 32x.....going by Atari's reputation in the industry at that point, they were 2nd rate against the competition, be it the Lynx against the Gameboy, their fight against the NES, Atari ST v Amiga...
Yes but you clearly don't. Sonic Adventure was packed in bundles of hundreds of thousands for some of them which can equate to a large chunk of that 2.5 million sales, you're dissmissles are not relevant to reality.You got the wrong "your" there buddy. Yeah, you obviously don't get the point at all.
Do you even know what pack-in means?
, but you are ignoring the elephant in the room, that Sonic 1 was a pack-in title
You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.Sonic 2 It was bundled, yes,
Probably because it's nowhere near as simple as you're making it sound. A VDP would have needed a Mega Drive compatibility mode or the Mega Drive's VDP would need to be included or emulated. The same goes for the Z80, PSG, and the YM2612. Assuming they went the hardware root rather than trying at least partial software emulation they'd also have to make sure the bus and memory timings were compatible, which might necessitate adding extra RAM specifically for the Mega Drive subsystem. The Saturn's 68000 would probably have needed to be able to lower its clock speed since it's faster than the Mega Drive's, and that's if the 68000 in the Saturn could even be used that way. AFAIK the 68EC000 used in the Saturn may not have been 100% compatible either, though I read conflicting things about that.I agree. Given the Saturn had a 6800 inside it I wonder why SEGA like SONY did with the PS2 didn't just use the sound chip to handle BC and just simply made an adaptor as it did with the Master System Converter 2 to fit in the Saturn cart slot
No, I did not. I said it wasn't bundled in the same fashion as the first one. The bit about you having poor reading comprehension skills was supposed to be a joke. Apparently, it is totally true. Either that or you are trying your hardest to twist what I've said.You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.
Notice how you trying to make it look like Dreamcast was regularly sold with Sonic Adventure and as a defense you bring up bundles that were either A) Limited Editions B) Were sold in late 2000 and 2001. The biggest chunk of Sonic Adventures sales came from it being a launch title sold individually alongside the Dreamcast and not with it. If you show me an official bundle from 1999 selling the Dreamcast with Sonic Adventure as a pack-in title, I'll gladly shut up.You said it wasn't, notice you won't actually say you made a mistake on that (like with the SA pack-ins) but instead try to dodge.
A quick note on Atari. The original company was split into two in 1984: Atari Corp., the home consumer division that was sold to the Tramiel family, and Atari Games, the arcade division with ties to Namco. They were two separate entities.
Atari Corp were still major players in the early 1990s. The 2600 Jr. sold six million units and the 7800 sold four million, both outselling the Sega Master System in the US. The ST line of computers did fairly well in Europe as well, at least until the Amiga 500 took off. The brand was still important in the minds of consumers and they demonstrated a willingness to compete with strong hardware.
Had the Jaguar released 1-2 years earlier, it might have made a bigger impact. Indeed, it didn’t sell that badly in its first year, only being held back by inventory problems (an issue that plagued Atari back then). And all the videogame industry needs is one breakaway hit. If Tempest 2000, Alien Vs. Predator, Iron Soldier or Brutal Sports Football clicked with the public and became big hits, history might have turned out differently.
Yes, Jaguar and 3DO seem like small potatoes in the year 2021, but in 1993, they were formidable rivals who had an equal chance to take the crown and steal the spotlight away from Sega and Nintendo. After all, Sega themselves did just that in the early 90s.
I’m not all surprised if Jupiter was planned with those machines in mind. I don’t think many in the industry were expecting the technology to accelerate so quickly. We went from Commodore Amiga to Sega Model 3 in only five years. That is a gargantuan leap in such a short time.
Yes bad framerates are vastly worse on n64. There is no other major system with as bad framerates.
Most high end playstation games dont have these type of framerate issues, and they have better graphics to boot. Most high end games on psone run at a solid 30fps.
zelda oot, zelda mm, ge, pd, turok 2, conker, banjo tooie, rouge squadron, jet force jemni all have crap framerates.
This is like half of the systems "quality" line up.
Attacks me, I respond back to your hallucinations, and I'm ruining the thread? Nope sorry, thread will go on. You don't decided if the thread ends, and with now that you are resulting to desperate troll in corner tactics like no longer quoting me this along with your odd hallucination in your last reply, about events that never happened, shows you continue to lose the discourse and you leap right in the grave you dug for yourself, so this conversation is over.Thank you T The Gorby Congressmanz for ruining this thread.
Honestly, I think not buying Sega was the worst mistake Microsoft ever made. They could have contended for the Japanese and Asian videogame markets.