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[winjer]

I explained above your post in different my posts.

You do realize that Mesh shaders replace a bunch of somewhat fixed function units, with a highly programable geometry pipeline.
You do realize that Primitive shaders only replace VS+DS+GS. Meaning it has to do several things the old fashion way.
While Mesh Shaders replace the entire geometry pipeline.

 

[assurdum]

Maybe you don't understand, ... I don't know if it is or not , but not knowing doesn't make what you write more truthful. if we began to say for everything that is not official "how can you say that it is not so" everything could be written. i do an example? how you know mesh shader isn't 10x more efficient than GE? ... you don't know either, that's why personal guesswork is stupid when it comes to technology. The PS5 and the GE are based on a GPU that still has the primitive shader as a base ... this is an incontrovertible fact. As it is, there is no official word on vrs2
support yet and apparently (after this Intel stuff corroborates even more what I've been trying to say for months and months) int4 or 8 support. When you have official data I'll change my mind until then are just wishful thinking

Can't care less to change your mind.

 

[assurdum]

You do realize that Mesh shaders replace a bunch of somewhat fixed function units, with a highly programable geometry pipeline.
You do realize that Primitive shaders only replace VS+DS+GS. Meaning it has to do several things the old fashion way.
While Mesh Shaders replace the entire geometry pipeline.

That's what GE does on ps5 too dude. You people are very naive to think XSX thanks to mesh shaders will do something impossible to achieve on ps5 via GE. They are just marketing buzz words. The substance it's the same on both. Outside a bunch of more pixels on XSX because the higher CUS counts.

 

[Sosokrates]

Hey guys PS5's geometry engine is 50% less performant then mesh shaders!

My sources are logic + coding and some devs on twitter!

Believe me

 

[winjer]

That's what GE does on ps5 too dude

The PS5 does not support Mesh Shaders.
It only supports Primitive Shaders. And it only replaces part of the old geometry pipeline.
Stop making things up.

 

[assurdum]

The PS5 does not support Mesh Shaders.
It only supports Primitive Shaders. And it only replaces part of the old geometry pipeline.
Stop making things up.

So what are you trying to say? What exactly you think to see on XSX not possible on ps5? More graphic effects? What exactly?

 

[winjer]

So what are you trying to say? What exactly you think to see on XSX not possible on ps5? More graphic effects? What exactly?

A more advanced, more efficient geometry rendering pipeline.
And the same goes for Turing, Ampere, RDNA2, ARC, and future GPUs.

 

[Zathalus]

My source it's called logic of coding. Fixed features are fixed so not flexible to use as low level access to set of instructions. Mind you more flexible not means absolutely superior eh.

Mesh shaders are not fixed function, they were designed to be fully programmable units to replace the traditional fixed-function primitive processing. They are similar to compute shaders shaders in that regard, which replaced the fixed function hardware of the past.

Source.

Task shader : a programmable unit that operates in workgroups and allows each to emit (or not) mesh shader workgroups
Mesh shader : a programmable unit that operates in workgroups and allows each to generate primitives

Higher scalability through shader units by reducing fixed-function impact in primitive processing.

Flexibility in defining the mesh topology and creating graphics work. The previous tessellation shaders were limited to fixed tessellation patterns while geometry shaders suffered from an inefficient threading, unfriendly programming model which created triangle strips per-thread.

Mesh shading follows the programming model of compute shaders, giving developers the freedom to use threads for different purposes and share data among them.

Primitive Shaders as used by Vega, RDNA1 and the PS5 are very similar in this regard, but have been deprecated in favour of Mesh Shaders. It is completely unknown by anyone that has not extensively worked with both what the performance and usage differences between the two are, but I am sure there must be a reason AMD, Nvidia, Microsoft, Intel, and the Khronos Group are all utilising Mesh Shaders and not Primitive Shaders going forward. It may be simply just an ease of use reason, but there is not enough information to really go on.

 

[MonarchJT]

That's what GE does on ps5 too dude. You people are very naive to think XSX thanks to mesh shaders will do something impossible to achieve on ps5 via GE. They are just marketing buzz words. The substance it's the same on both. Outside a bunch of more pixels on XSX because the higher CUS counts.

official statement ....slide...or explanation on how the PS5 pipeline is different from old one?

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

My source it's called logic of coding. Fixed features are fixed so not flexible to use as low level access to set of instructions. Mind you more flexible not means absolutely superior eh.

Oh so nothing per usual.

 

[MonarchJT]

My source it's called logic of coding. Fixed features are fixed so not flexible to use as low level access to set of instructions. Mind you more flexible not means absolutely superior eh.

ok basically personal guesswork (based on no real data) mixed with obv brand preferences. okay

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Mesh shaders and primitive shaders are literally not the same. If you guys really cared about the truth you’d seek it.

All you literally have to do is go to YouTube and watch some presentations.

You guys don’t want the truth lol. That’s it that’s all.

They’re the same in the sense they both provide compute shader functionality to the graphics pipeline. Primtive Shaders modify the old pipeline whilst Mesh Shaders introduce a new pipeline all together. The raw performance gains are identical. “Don’t want the truth” lol ok

The PS5 does not have Mesh Shaders. It has only Primitive shaders.
There is a significant difference between Mesh Shaders and Primitive shaders.
The render pipeline for Mesh Shaders is more efficient and flexible.

Both AMD, with RNDA1 (via Primitive Shader) and NVIDIA, with Turing (via Mesh Shader), presented Next Generation Geometry Pipeline (NGGP) programming models. Microsoft has rejected AMD's Primitive Shader NGGP.
So AMD had to redo the RDNA2 Geometry Pipeline, to the standard of Mesh Shaders. Sony didn't want to wait until the final version of RDNA2, with Mesh Shaders, so it only has support for Primitive Shaders.
Mesh shaders and Amplification Shaders replace, Input Assembly (fixed function) + Hull Shaders + Tesselation + Domain Shaders + Geometry Shaders.
But Primitive Shaders only replaced VS+DS+GS.

A lot of false information in here. The hardware required for Mesh and Primitive Shaders was introduced in the Vega architecture and then RDNA 1 unified the geometry engines to boost performance. There has been zero changes to from RDNA 1 to 2 when it comes to the command processor and geometry engines,see AMD’s whitepapers for more information on this. It literally nothing to do with “Sony didn’t want to wait for RDNA 2”. Lmao

In fact all AMD RDNA 2 cards are converting Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shaders in code as seen in the driver code, this very likely includes the Series X as well.

If you want more information go through LeviathanGamer2’s tweets as he’s covered this extensively.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

They’re the same in the sense they both provide compute shader functionality to the graphics pipeline. Primtive Shaders modify the old pipeline whilst Mesh Shaders introduce a new pipeline all together. The raw performance gains are identical. “Don’t want the truth” lol ok



A lot of false information in here. The hardware required for Mesh and Primitive Shaders was introduced in the Vega architecture and then RDNA 1 unified the geometry engines to boost performance. There has been zero changes to from RDNA 1 to 2 when it comes to the command processor and geometry engines,see AMD’s whitepapers for more information on this. It literally nothing to do with “Sony didn’t want to wait for RDNA 2”. Lmao

In fact all AMD RDNA 2 cards are converting Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shaders in code as seen in the driver code, this very likely includes the Series X as well.

If you want more information go through LeviathanGamer2’s tweets as he’s covered this extensively.

Why would your tweets be a better source of truth than curated and published white papers/ articles from NVIDIA, INTEL, AMD ect??

You wanna tell Nvidia that they dont understand mesh shaders ? lmao

 

[winjer]

They’re the same in the sense they both provide compute shader functionality to the graphics pipeline. Primtive Shaders modify the old pipeline whilst Mesh Shaders introduce a new pipeline all together. The raw performance gains are identical. “Don’t want the truth” lol ok



A lot of false information in here. The hardware required for Mesh and Primitive Shaders was introduced in the Vega architecture and then RDNA 1 unified the geometry engines to boost performance. There has been zero changes to from RDNA 1 to 2 when it comes to the command processor and geometry engines,see AMD’s whitepapers for more information on this. It literally nothing to do with “Sony didn’t want to wait for RDNA 2”. Lmao

In fact all AMD RDNA 2 cards are converting Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shaders in code as seen in the driver code, this very likely includes the Series X as well.

If you want more information go through LeviathanGamer2’s tweets as he’s covered this extensively.

I have never seen any official confirmation that this is true.
Someone posting a tweet is not evidence.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

I have never seen any official confirmation that this is true.
Someone posting a tweet is not evidence.

I would like to see how these guys wrote research papers in school.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

If you guys weren't so defensive you could learn something, but per usual they chose salt.

 

[hlm666]

Can we argue about why everyone seems to believe what Intel says about XeSS but pretty much not about anything else Intel ever says. I honestly don't expect this to run as well as everyone is hoping on none Intel hardware, I mean it's Intel king of the questionable pre release bar graphs.

 

[Zathalus]

They’re the same in the sense they both provide compute shader functionality to the graphics pipeline. Primtive Shaders modify the old pipeline whilst Mesh Shaders introduce a new pipeline all together. The raw performance gains are identical. “Don’t want the truth” lol ok



A lot of false information in here. The hardware required for Mesh and Primitive Shaders was introduced in the Vega architecture and then RDNA 1 unified the geometry engines to boost performance. There has been zero changes to from RDNA 1 to 2 when it comes to the command processor and geometry engines,see AMD’s whitepapers for more information on this. It literally nothing to do with “Sony didn’t want to wait for RDNA 2”. Lmao

In fact all AMD RDNA 2 cards are converting Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shaders in code as seen in the driver code, this very likely includes the Series X as well.

If you want more information go through LeviathanGamer2’s tweets as he’s covered this extensively.

If this was true, why do RDNA 1 cards not support Mesh Shaders if it was a simple software fix?

 

[Loxus]

I knew the Xbox camp would come in raging with anything to disprove what I've said without bringing sources.

Mesh Shader and the Geometry Engine in the PS5 does literally the same thing. The Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders in the PS5 does two completely different things and AMD Primitive Shaders does not do the same thing as PS5's Primitive Shaders. AMD Primitive Shaders is much more comparable the the PS5's Geometry Engine.

How VRS works using PS5s Primitive Shaders.
In graphics processing data is received representing one or more vertices for a scene in a virtual space. Primitive assembly is performed on the vertices to compute projections of the vertices from virtual space onto a viewport of the scene in a screen space of a display device containing a plurality of pixels, the plurality of pixels being subdivided into a plurality of subsections. Scan conversion determines which pixels of the plurality of pixels are part of each primitive that has been converted to screen space coordinates. Coarse rasterization for each primitive determines which subsection or subsections the primitive overlaps. Metadata associated with the subsection a primitive overlaps determines a pixel resolution for the subsection. The metadata is used in processing pixels for the subsection to generate final pixel values for the viewport of the scene that is displayed on the display device in such a way that parts of the scene in two different subsections have different pixel resolution.

Again, PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA2 CUs. You can't disprove this, it confirmed by AMD themselves.

VRS also has nothing to do with CUs.

 

[Loxus]

Why would your tweets be a better source of truth than curated and published white papers/ articles from NVIDIA, INTEL, AMD ect??

You wanna tell Nvidia that they dont understand mesh shaders ? lmao

This is how you know that you keep spreading BS.

He is right and it's confirmed by Nvidia themselves.

Introduction to Turing Mesh Shaders

• Mesh shader : a programmable unit that operates in workgroups and allows each to generate primitives

 

[DaGwaphics]

Mesh Shader and the Geometry Engine in the PS5 does literally the same thing. The Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders in the PS5 does two completely different things and AMD Primitive Shaders does not do the same thing as PS5's Primitive Shaders. AMD Primitive Shaders is much more comparable the the PS5's Geometry Engine.

How VRS works using PS5s Primitive Shaders.
In graphics processing data is received representing one or more vertices for a scene in a virtual space. Primitive assembly is performed on the vertices to compute projections of the vertices from virtual space onto a viewport of the scene in a screen space of a display device containing a plurality of pixels, the plurality of pixels being subdivided into a plurality of subsections. Scan conversion determines which pixels of the plurality of pixels are part of each primitive that has been converted to screen space coordinates. Coarse rasterization for each primitive determines which subsection or subsections the primitive overlaps. Metadata associated with the subsection a primitive overlaps determines a pixel resolution for the subsection. The metadata is used in processing pixels for the subsection to generate final pixel values for the viewport of the scene that is displayed on the display device in such a way that parts of the scene in two different subsections have different pixel resolution.

Not to imply I have a complete understanding of the technical jargon, but Mesh Shaders and VRS are separate technologies from my understanding.

 

[Loxus]

Not to imply I have a complete understanding of the technical jargon, but Mesh Shaders and VRS are separate technologies from my understanding.

Geometry Engine = Mesh Shaders
Primitive Shaders = VRS.
I literally gave you an explanation of how Primitive Shaders does it.

Can't you read?

 

[DaGwaphics]

Can't you read?

As a general rule, yes. Attempting to decipher your posts can be quite a challenge for me though.

 

[IllegalLemon]

I like how some people in here read the data off of a table, which gave a "clear as day" disclaimer that the data provided could potentially be incomplete or inconclusive, and came to the conclusion that the series consoles have some sort of mega-ultra-super-duper-gargantuan form of secret sauce capability that the PS5 doesn't have. Look everyone, Sony doesn't owe you anything regarding the specifics of their SOC design and its hardware capabilities. Just because Sony doesn't bark as loud as Microsoft does with regards to what's in their hardware, does not necessarily mean that their console does not implement the feature, or support it in any capacity, you don't know that and I don't that either. I didn't use Primitive or Mesh shaders to know their ins and outs, so i won't go out of my way and pretend to know which one is better or more efficient based on marketing speak. Again, we don't know which is better because we haven't used either, devs did, so let these people do the talking, instead of arriving to conclusions about which is better than which.

 

[Zathalus]

Lol, AMD and PS5 Primitive shaders are now different things. You can't make this shit up. Actually, I guess Loxus can.

 

[winjer]

OMG, I think Loxus is confusing the term "Primitives" with the "Primitive Shaders"
He doesn't know that "Primitives" are points, lines, and triangles that are then rasterized.
What that patent is describing is Variable Effective Resolution, in which one can have different rates of rasterization. Effectively Variable rate Shading.
But he doesn't understand that all types of geometry pipelines must render primitives, and then rasterize them.
He doesn't understand that Primitive Shaders and Mesh Shaders are ways to generate Primitives, aka points, lines, and triangles.
So because that patent mentions Primitives (points, lines, and triangles), he automatically assumed it refers to Primitive Shaders.

 

[Loxus]

Lol, AMD and PS5 Primitive shaders are now different things. You can't make this shit up. Actually, I guess Loxus can.

Cerny said it a brand new capability.

Since you know everything, name the things AMD Primitive Shaders does that PS5 Primitive Shaders does?

You keep forgetting about the Geometry Engine. The Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders in the PS5 does two different things, if not there wouldn't be two different names.

 

[Riky]

Lol, AMD and PS5 Primitive shaders are now different things. You can't make this shit up. Actually, I guess Loxus can.

Hilarious how is doubling down on it when it's incredibly well documented what VRS is and when it is used in the pipeline, it's nothing like Mesh or Primitive Shaders which are used to cull unneeded geometry, hence Geometry Engine, Microsoft also use that name in their literature.

Cerny explains exactly what it is himself.

 

[Gameplaylover]

There is fighting on every front even if some people on this battlefield have no clue what they are doing. I'm lovin' it.

 

[Loxus]

OMG, I think Loxus is confusing the term "Primitives" with the "Primitive Shaders"
He doesn't know that "Primitives" are points, lines, and triangles that are then rasterized.
What that patent is describing is Variable Effective Resolution, in which one can have different rates of rasterization. Effectively Variable rate Shading.
But he doesn't understand that all types of geometry pipelines must render primitives, and then rasterize them.
He doesn't understand that Primitive Shaders and Mesh Shaders are ways to generate Primitives, aka points, lines, and triangles.
So because that patent mentions Primitives (points, lines, and triangles), he automatically assumed it refers to Primitive Shaders.

As per Cerny,
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control. Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

Everything you just described is what the Geometry Engine and Mesh Shaders does.

More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.

Mesh Shaders or AMD Primitive Shaders does not vary details of objects and effects.

It's like you have low understanding skills.

 

[Zathalus]

Cerny said it a brand new capability.

Since you know everything, name the things AMD Primitive Shaders does that PS5 Primitive Shaders does?

You keep forgetting about the Geometry Engine. The Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders in the PS5 does two different things, if not there wouldn't be two different names.

Dude, think about this logically for a second. AMD has a functionality called Primitive shaders that is part of the Geometry Engine that is meant to effectively process geometry and allow primitives to be discarded at a very high rate (source and source). Cerny now mentions the Primitive Shaders in context of the Geometry Engine and we are now supposed to believe these are completely separate things? Just read the linked whitepaper about the Vega architecture, the section titled 'Next-generation geometry engine' is literally what is in the PS5 (Xbox Series X as well, with the slight tweaks required for Mesh Shaders). As I mentioned, don't expect a world of difference between the PS5 Primitive Shader and the Xbox Mesh Shader.

 

[Loxus]

Hilarious how is doubling down on it when it's incredibly well documented what VRS is and when it is used in the pipeline, it's nothing like Mesh or Primitive Shaders which are used to cull unneeded geometry, hence Geometry Engine, Microsoft also use that name in their literature.

Cerny explains exactly what it is himself.

Mesh Shaders or AMD Primitive Shaders does not vary details of objects and effects.

 

[winjer]

As per Cerny,
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control. Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

Everything you just described is what the Geometry Engine and Mesh Shaders does.

More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.

Mesh Shaders or AMD Primitive Shaders does not vary details of objects and effects.

It's like you have low understanding skills.

Dude, you have no idea of what is a NGGP, like Mesh Shaders and Primitive Shaders, or a Variable Rate Shading.
Primitive Shaders is not Variable Rate Shading.

 

[Loxus]

Dude, you have no idea of what is a NGGP, like Mesh Shaders and Primitive Shaders, or a Variable Rate Shading.

Dude, think about this logically for a second. AMD has a functionality called Primitive shaders that is part of the Geometry Engine that is meant to effectively process geometry and allow primitives to be discarded at a very high rate (source and source). Cerny now mentions the Primitive Shaders in context of the Geometry Engine and we are now supposed to believe these are completely separate things? Just read the linked whitepaper about the Vega architecture, the section titled 'Next-generation geometry engine' is literally what is in the PS5 (Xbox Series X as well, with the slight tweaks required for Mesh Shaders). As I mentioned, don't expect a world of difference between the PS5 Primitive Shader and the Xbox Mesh Shader.

I literally posted exactly what Cerny said, he is the lead architect of the PS5.

He said Primitive Shaders in the PS5 is a brand new capability that vary the details of objects and effects. Something much different from what AMD Primitive Shaders does.

The Geometry Engine on the other does exactly the same thing as Mesh Shaders.

He also did a patent describing how VRS is done using Primitive Shaders.

The guy literally made an insane I/O unit in the GPU that removes bottlenecks and repurposed a compute unit into the Tempest Engine.
He can also re-enigineer the Geometry Engine in the PS5 to do what he needs it to do.

But it doesn't matter because you Xbots are bewitched behind Microsoft.

 

[Neo_game]

That's because nvidia GPUs count the tensor cores to that. Funny thing is that they are almost not used so far (other than DLSS) for the tasks they are on board. Still waiting for nvidia to use them for RT. They still only use them for DLSS. I guess they are not capable enough of working on DLSS + RT (the parts than can be processed on the tensor cores) at the same time.

Yes you are right it uses tensor cores for it and therefore should have big advantage.

 

[intbal]

Dynamic Resolution is different from Variable Rate Shading.
DRS has been in use on consoles for almost a decade now. It's nothing new.

While, I'm sure you probably mean "commonly used" for almost a decade now (ever since Rage in 2011), technically DRS has been in use on console ever since 2004 with Chronicles of Riddick on original Xbox. I'm not aware of any implementation of DRS on consoles prior to that.

 

[Zathalus]

I literally posted exactly what Cerny said, he is the lead architect of the PS5.

He said Primitive Shaders in the PS5 is a brand new capability that vary the details of objects and effects. Something much different from what AMD Primitive Shaders does.

The Geometry Engine on the other does exactly the same thing as Mesh Shaders.

He also did a patent describing how VRS is done using Primitive Shaders.

The guy literally made an insane I/O unit in the GPU that removes bottlenecks and repurposed a compute unit into the Tempest Engine.
He can also re-enigineer the Geometry Engine in the PS5 to do what he needs it to do.

But it doesn't matter because you Xbots are bewitched behind Microsoft.

Yes, I'm so bewitched by Microsoft that I own a PS5 and over 400 games for it. So bewitched by them that my favourite games of the previous generation were all Sony exclusives. So bewitched by them that Demon Souls is my favourite game of this generation so far.

Clearly I'm the fanboy here.

 

[winjer]

I literally posted exactly what Cerny said, he is the lead architect of the PS5.

He said Primitive Shaders in the PS5 is a brand new capability that vary the details of objects and effects. Something much different from what AMD Primitive Shaders does.

The Geometry Engine on the other does exactly the same thing as Mesh Shaders.

He also did a patent describing how VRS is done using Primitive Shaders.

The guy literally made an insane I/O unit in the GPU that removes bottlenecks and repurposed a compute unit into the Tempest Engine.
He can also re-enigineer the Geometry Engine in the PS5 to do what he needs it to do.

But it doesn't matter because you Xbots are bewitched behind Microsoft.

First I have to ask you if you already understand that Variable Rate Shading is different from Primitive Shaders?
Because you made several post claiming VRS = Primitive Shaders.

Yes, Primitive Shaders are a new feature for a PlayStation machine. Not on PC, not on AMD cards.

All GPUs have a Geometry Engine. The difference is how each one deals with geometry.
Primitive shaders don't do the same as Mesh Shaders.
Mesh shaders + Amplification Shaders replace a whole geometry pipeline that was used prior: Input Assembly (fixed function) + Hull Shaders + Tesselation + Domain Shaders + Geometry Shaders.
But Primitive Shaders only replaced VS+DS+GS. It's a more limited geometry pipeline.
And you can clearly see on Cerny's presentation that the PS5 uses Primitive Shaders.

Yes, he ordered some cool features for the SSD and Sound. But he chose not to way for AMD to implement Mesh Shaders, DP4a, Int4, Int8, and hardware VRS.

And you can sod off with that " bewitched behind Microsoft" statement.
I only had one MS console, but I had several PlayStations. Chances are I've been gaming on PlayStation before you were born.

 

[Schmick]

Yes, I'm so bewitched by Microsoft that I own a PS5 and over 400 games for it. So bewitched by them that my favourite games of the previous generation were all Sony exclusives. So bewitched by them that Demon Souls is my favourite game of this generation so far.

Clearly I'm the fanboy here.

First I have to ask you if you already understand that Variable Rate Shading is different from Primitive Shaders?
Because you made several post claiming VRS = Primitive Shaders.

Yes, Primitive Shaders are a new feature for a PlayStation machine. Not on PC, not on AMD cards.

All GPUs have a Geometry Engine. The difference is how each one deals with geometry.
Primitive shaders don't do the same as Mesh Shaders.
Mesh shaders + Amplification Shaders replace a whole geometry pipeline that was used prior: Input Assembly (fixed function) + Hull Shaders + Tesselation + Domain Shaders + Geometry Shaders.
But Primitive Shaders only replaced VS+DS+GS. It's a more limited geometry pipeline.
And you can clearly see on Cerny's presentation that the PS5 uses Primitive Shaders.

Yes, he ordered some cool features for the SSD and Sound. But he chose not to way for AMD to implement Mesh Shaders, DP4a, Int4, Int8, and hardware VRS.

And you can sod off with that " bewitched behind Microsoft" statement.
I only had one MS console, but I had several PlayStations. Chances are I've been gaming on PlayStation before you were born.

what can I say.... when a person does not like the way a conversation is going... rather accept that they are wrong they resort to name calling. Pretty standard stuff here at Gaf.

Makes me wonder why a list of your current and historic console purchases cannot be listed and publicly viewed under your avatar. Maybe... just maybe name calling might would happen less?

 

[Loxus]

First I have to ask you if you already understand that Variable Rate Shading is different from Primitive Shaders?
Because you made several post claiming VRS = Primitive Shaders.

Yes, Primitive Shaders are a new feature for a PlayStation machine. Not on PC, not on AMD cards.

All GPUs have a Geometry Engine. The difference is how each one deals with geometry.
Primitive shaders don't do the same as Mesh Shaders.
Mesh shaders + Amplification Shaders replace a whole geometry pipeline that was used prior: Input Assembly (fixed function) + Hull Shaders + Tesselation + Domain Shaders + Geometry Shaders.
But Primitive Shaders only replaced VS+DS+GS. It's a more limited geometry pipeline.
And you can clearly see on Cerny's presentation that the PS5 uses Primitive Shaders.

Yes, he ordered some cool features for the SSD and Sound. But he chose not to way for AMD to implement Mesh Shaders, DP4a, Int4, Int8, and hardware VRS.

You keep thinking Primitive Shaders in PS5 has to be the same as AMD Primitive Shaders just because they have the same name but that is not the case.

This is how Cerny described Primitive Shaders in PS5.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.

This is what Wikipedia say about Primitive and Mesh shaders.
Shader Wikipedia
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Nowhere does it say AMD's Primitive Shaders varies the details of objects and effects like PS5's Primitive Shaders and is obvious it's within the Geometry Engine like how RT is within a compute unit.

This is how Cerny described the Geometry Engine.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control. Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

This is what Mesh Shaders are,
Mesh Shaders Release the Intrinsic Power of a GPU
Mesh shaders will expand the capabilities and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders incorporate the features of Vertex and Geometry shaders into a single shader stage through batch processing of primitives and vertices data before the rasterizer. The shaders are also capable of amplifying and culling geometry.

Mesh Shaders, AMD Primitive Shaders and the Geometry Engine are that exact same thing, while PS5's Primitive Shaders are something entirely different.

 

[winjer]

You keep thinking Primitive Shaders in PS5 has to be the same as AMD Primitive Shaders just because they have the same name but that is not the case.

This is how Cerny described Primitive Shaders in PS5.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.

This is what Wikipedia say about Primitive and Mesh shaders.
Shader Wikipedia
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Nowhere does it say AMD's Primitive Shaders varies the details of objects and effects like PS5's Primitive Shaders and is obvious it's within the Geometry Engine like how RT is within a compute unit.

This is how Cerny described the Geometry Engine.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control. Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

This is what Mesh Shaders are,
Mesh Shaders Release the Intrinsic Power of a GPU
Mesh shaders will expand the capabilities and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders incorporate the features of Vertex and Geometry shaders into a single shader stage through batch processing of primitives and vertices data before the rasterizer. The shaders are also capable of amplifying and culling geometry.

Mesh Shaders, AMD Primitive Shaders and the Geometry Engine are that exact same thing, while PS5's Primitive Shaders are something entirely different.

You are just making assumptions on your wishfull thinking.
Not based on technical data.

 

[Loxus]

You are just making assumptions on your wishfull thinking.
Not based on technical data.

Not wishful, it's straight out of Mark Cerny's mouth from Road to PS5 and his word is above yours as you didn't help design the PS5.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I like how some people in here read the data off of a table, which gave a "clear as day" disclaimer that the data provided could potentially be incomplete or inconclusive, and came to the conclusion that the series consoles have some sort of mega-ultra-super-duper-gargantuan form of secret sauce capability that the PS5 doesn't have.

It's more preposterous than that.
They're reading "data" out of Microsoft's marketing material and using that as basis to extrapolate with 100% certainty what hardware capabilities Sony's console doesn't have. They said they waited to get these features so that must mean Sony doesn't have it!

Then there's those "you need to accept this / it is known" non-argument posts, typical of cult mentality. And if that wasn't enough, the fact that OP's intervention in the thread is mostly dedicated to making ad-hominem attack posts is proof enough that this was created with the sole intention of console warring.

Which is a shame because OP's source material on Locuza 's tweets is pretty good overall, and I doubt he'd ever want it to be used as cannon fodder for console wars.



Any GPU will be able to support Intel's DP4a path for XeSS and the first post's gotcha implied that it can only run on the Series consoles is incorrect. This is what Intel had to say about the open source DP4a path of XeSS:

Digital Foundry: Okay, so is there actually a sort of limitation on which GPUs from other vendors will run it? I mean, I'm assuming there has to be some kind of machine learning acceleration involved, right?

Tom Petersen: That's, that's really a question for other vendors, right? You've seen these machine learning style applications run on GPUs with none, right? There's no reason it has to have a particular hardware. It's just a performance, quality kind of complexity trade off.

The whole premise of the thread is blown by Intel's own statements.

 

[winjer]

Not wishful, it's straight out of Mark Cerny's mouth from Road to PS5 and his word is above yours as you didn't help design the PS5.

Never did he say that primitive Shaders are the same as Mesh Shaders.
that's you making things up.

 

[Loxus]

Never did he say that primitive Shaders are the same as Mesh Shaders.
that's you making things up.

Where did I say the PS5's Primitive Shader are the same say as Mesh Shaders? It's the Geometry Engine that's the same as Mesh Shaders.

It's AMD Primitive Shaders that are the same as Mesh Shaders.
Shader Wikipedia
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

 

[Max Payne’s Baretta]

Guy above literally has no idea what he’s talking about. Just angrily typing long posts for the heck of it.

 

[Negotiator101]

What is the proof it does not support INT8/INT4 quad and octa rate math (available in RDNA1 already, optional on that arch, default on RDNA2) as it does double rate FP16? The old “if it did they would have said” “Sony Principal Eng tweet” proofs, right ?

I see the thread already took a “omg, this could mean a gulf of performance” “trump card” material kind of turn .

Please don't.

 

[winjer]

Where did I say the PS5's Primitive Shader are the same say as Mesh Shaders? It's the Geometry Engine that's the same as Mesh Shaders.

It's AMD Primitive Shaders that are the same as Mesh Shaders.
Shader Wikipedia
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Yes, they are similar in that they were intended for the Next Generation Geometry Pipeline. They are both geometry pipelines, that replace the previous model.
But what you still fail to understand is that they replace different things, inside the geometry pipeline.
You are so limited in understanding tech, is almost mindboggling.
You keep making random associations to try to prove your point, but you end up just showing how little you know.
I'm done trying to explain anything else to you.

 

[Negotiator101]

So what are you trying to say? What exactly you think to see on XSX not possible on ps5? More graphic effects? What exactly?

Please stop.

 

[Negotiator101]

Yes, they are similar in that they were intended for the Next Generation Geometry Pipeline. They are both geometry pipelines, that replace the previous model.
But what you still fail to understand is that they replace different things, inside the geometry pipeline.
You are so limited in understanding tech, is almost mindboggling.
You keep making random associations to try to prove your point, but you end up just showing how little you know.
I'm done trying to explain anything else to you.

Thank you Sir, may I ask if you have a programming background?