Little Chicken
Member
I would just like to start seeing things like this put to use. I suppose it'll be another year or so.
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XeSS (Intel ML Upscaling) supported by Series Consoles
- Thread starter Max Payne’s Baretta
- Start date
- News
winjer
Gold Member
We are already seeing several games implementing VRS, since it's something simpler to implement.
But to use Mesh Shaders or Primitive Shaders, requires a lot more effort, because it's a very different way to do the geometry pipeline.
For first party games, it might be justified for Sony and MS to invest the extra time and money, just to show of he power of the new consoles.
But for most devs, it's more economical to make the game for last gen, and add a few effects, that are easy and fast to implement.
But to use Mesh Shaders or Primitive Shaders, requires a lot more effort, because it's a very different way to do the geometry pipeline.
For first party games, it might be justified for Sony and MS to invest the extra time and money, just to show of he power of the new consoles.
But for most devs, it's more economical to make the game for last gen, and add a few effects, that are easy and fast to implement.
sendit
Member
Another advantage for xbox
nice
When will these advantages show up in actual games?
Kazekage1981
Member
Can you stack FidelityFX with XeSS? Or you have to pick one or the other?
Xbox Series X Pro and Playstation 5 Pro need to have dedicated Neural/Machine Learning Cores so it can do DLSS 3.0 type of display for 8K 60fps gaming
Xbox Series X Pro and Playstation 5 Pro need to have dedicated Neural/Machine Learning Cores so it can do DLSS 3.0 type of display for 8K 60fps gaming
JackMcGunns
Member
In before PS5 too comments
Loxus
Member
You guys have been brain washed by Microsoft with these flashy names that it's becoming so painful.
Mesh Shaders = Geometry Engine
This is literally the exact same thing Mesh Shaders does.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.
Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
VRS = Primitive Shaders
Two different techniques but the same result, saving on performance.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.
Dynamic Resolution already makes Microsoft VRS almost useless, while Sony's solution is good for VR.
The PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA 2 CUs.
We built a GPU with 36CUs mind you RDNA2 CUs are large each has 62% more transistors than the CUs we were using on PlayStation 4.
So if we compare transistor counts 36 RDNA2 CUs equates to roughly 58 PlayStation 4 CUs.
By having RDNA 2 CUs, PS5 also has these features.
Plus 256-bit native instructions is also confirm for the CPU.
PlayStation 5 is especially challenging because the CPU supports 256 bit native instructions that consume a lot of power.
These are great here and there but presumably only minimally used or are they if we plan for major 256 bit instruction usage we need to set the CPU clock substantially lower or noticeably increase the size of the power supply and fan.
There is nothing that dispoves all the information I've provided except for fanboyism. What's also funny is the PS5 has more newer tech in it than the XBSX, Bluetooth 5 and WiFi 6 for example.
There are also multiple patents from Sony and Sony aren't playing around with the PS5, so it's guaranteed these are implemented.
Machine Learning Upscaling Patent
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
VRS Foveal Rendering Patent
VARYING EFFECTIVE RESOLUTION BY SCREEN LOCATION BY ALTERING RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
METHOD FOR EFFICIENT RE-RENDERING OBJECTS TO VARY VIEWPORTS AND UNDER VARYING RENDERING AND RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
V-sync Patent
VIDEO FRAME RATE COMPENSATION THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF VERTICAL BLANKING
sendit
Member
These console can't even do 4K 60FPS and you expect the inevitable Pro versions to offer 8k 60 FPS?
oldergamer
Member
Sorry but that post literally is fanboy shit.You guys have been brain washed by Microsoft with these flashy names that it's becoming so painful.
Mesh Shaders = Geometry Engine
This is literally the exact same thing Mesh Shaders does.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.
Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
VRS = Primitive Shaders
Two different techniques but the same result, saving on performance.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.
Dynamic Resolution already makes Microsoft VRS almost useless, while Sony's solution is good for VR.
The PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA 2 CUs.
We built a GPU with 36CUs mind you RDNA2 CUs are large each has 62% more transistors than the CUs we were using on PlayStation 4.
So if we compare transistor counts 36 RDNA2 CUs equates to roughly 58 PlayStation 4 CUs.
By having RDNA 2 CUs, PS5 also has these features.
Plus 256-bit native instructions is also confirm for the CPU.
PlayStation 5 is especially challenging because the CPU supports 256 bit native instructions that consume a lot of power.
These are great here and there but presumably only minimally used or are they if we plan for major 256 bit instruction usage we need to set the CPU clock substantially lower or noticeably increase the size of the power supply and fan.
There is nothing that dispoves all the information I've provided except for fanboyism. What's also funny is the PS5 has more newer tech in it than the XBSX, Bluetooth 5 and WiFi 6 for example.
There are also multiple patents from Sony and Sony aren't playing around with the PS5, so it's guaranteed these are implemented.
Machine Learning Upscaling Patent
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
VRS Foveal Rendering Patent
VARYING EFFECTIVE RESOLUTION BY SCREEN LOCATION BY ALTERING RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
METHOD FOR EFFICIENT RE-RENDERING OBJECTS TO VARY VIEWPORTS AND UNDER VARYING RENDERING AND RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
V-sync Patent
VIDEO FRAME RATE COMPENSATION THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF VERTICAL BLANKING
Mesh shaders are slightly more flexible then the geometry engine
VRS is not made useless by dynamic res. Its not the same thing as primitive shaders.
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Riky
$MSFT
Geometry Engine is Primitive Shaders, which are an earlier form of Mesh Shaders with less granular control in the pipeline.
VRS does not equal Primitive Shaders, one is culling and one is post, they both save performance but in totally different ways, this has all been well documented before.
Series consoles will be able to use Mesh Shaders and Tier 2 VRS together.
We've been through all this before, several times.
VRS does not equal Primitive Shaders, one is culling and one is post, they both save performance but in totally different ways, this has all been well documented before.
Series consoles will be able to use Mesh Shaders and Tier 2 VRS together.
We've been through all this before, several times.
noYou guys have been brain washed by Microsoft with these flashy names that it's becoming so painful.
Mesh Shaders = Geometry Engine
This is literally the exact same thing Mesh Shaders does.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.
Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
VRS = Primitive Shaders
Two different techniques but the same result, saving on performance.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.
Dynamic Resolution already makes Microsoft VRS almost useless, while Sony's solution is good for VR.
The PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA 2 CUs.
We built a GPU with 36CUs mind you RDNA2 CUs are large each has 62% more transistors than the CUs we were using on PlayStation 4.
So if we compare transistor counts 36 RDNA2 CUs equates to roughly 58 PlayStation 4 CUs.
By having RDNA 2 CUs, PS5 also has these features.
Plus 256-bit native instructions is also confirm for the CPU.
PlayStation 5 is especially challenging because the CPU supports 256 bit native instructions that consume a lot of power.
These are great here and there but presumably only minimally used or are they if we plan for major 256 bit instruction usage we need to set the CPU clock substantially lower or noticeably increase the size of the power supply and fan.
There is nothing that dispoves all the information I've provided except for fanboyism. What's also funny is the PS5 has more newer tech in it than the XBSX, Bluetooth 5 and WiFi 6 for example.
There are also multiple patents from Sony and Sony aren't playing around with the PS5, so it's guaranteed these are implemented.
Machine Learning Upscaling Patent
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
VRS Foveal Rendering Patent
VARYING EFFECTIVE RESOLUTION BY SCREEN LOCATION BY ALTERING RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
METHOD FOR EFFICIENT RE-RENDERING OBJECTS TO VARY VIEWPORTS AND UNDER VARYING RENDERING AND RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
V-sync Patent
VIDEO FRAME RATE COMPENSATION THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF VERTICAL BLANKING
stop it
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Doesn’t matter .. but when the new engines come out , they will see .. just wait !
intbal
Member
I read this a while back. It's written in patent-speak, so it's not the easiest thing to follow. But I think it's actually referring to technology related to Sony's own game streaming implementation, rather than a local hardware solution. I'm sure somebody who knows more about it can clarify.
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Three Jackdaws
Banned
Seems posters are still spewing false and unsubstantiated information about Mesh/Primtive Shader functionality on the PS5 as well as the Geontry Engine, even though such false information has been debunked several times on these threads.
You guys need to stop it.
You guys need to stop it.
i really don't know how and why personal conjectures based on non-substantial evidence (certainly not from Cerny, Sony or anyone else) can still be admitted. It is,like it or not, practically spreading FUD.
Kazekage1981
Member
Well with dedicated hardware neural cores or machine learning cores maybe? Maybe checkerboarding
Zathalus
Member
Jesus dude, just looking at a simple wikipedia articles proves you are wrong.You guys have been brain washed by Microsoft with these flashy names that it's becoming so painful.
Mesh Shaders = Geometry Engine
This is literally the exact same thing Mesh Shaders does.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.
Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
VRS = Primitive Shaders
Two different techniques but the same result, saving on performance.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.
Dynamic Resolution already makes Microsoft VRS almost useless, while Sony's solution is good for VR.
The PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA 2 CUs.
We built a GPU with 36CUs mind you RDNA2 CUs are large each has 62% more transistors than the CUs we were using on PlayStation 4.
So if we compare transistor counts 36 RDNA2 CUs equates to roughly 58 PlayStation 4 CUs.
By having RDNA 2 CUs, PS5 also has these features.
Plus 256-bit native instructions is also confirm for the CPU.
PlayStation 5 is especially challenging because the CPU supports 256 bit native instructions that consume a lot of power.
These are great here and there but presumably only minimally used or are they if we plan for major 256 bit instruction usage we need to set the CPU clock substantially lower or noticeably increase the size of the power supply and fan.
There is nothing that dispoves all the information I've provided except for fanboyism. What's also funny is the PS5 has more newer tech in it than the XBSX, Bluetooth 5 and WiFi 6 for example.
There are also multiple patents from Sony and Sony aren't playing around with the PS5, so it's guaranteed these are implemented.
Machine Learning Upscaling Patent
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
VRS Foveal Rendering Patent
VARYING EFFECTIVE RESOLUTION BY SCREEN LOCATION BY ALTERING RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
METHOD FOR EFFICIENT RE-RENDERING OBJECTS TO VARY VIEWPORTS AND UNDER VARYING RENDERING AND RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
V-sync Patent
VIDEO FRAME RATE COMPENSATION THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF VERTICAL BLANKING
Max Payne’s Baretta
Banned
Lol no point in even pointing this out bro. These dudes are straight up dedicated to the lie. They don’t care about sources , evidence and validity.
Three Jackdaws
Banned
Spreading FUD would be saying Primitive Shaders and Geometry Engine are an earlier version of Mesh Shaders, which is flat out wrong and mostly been pushed by warriors.
This has been proven through information provided by AMD and AMD drivers, as well as published patents.
so the geometry engine in your opinion is the same as mesh shader?
Max Payne’s Baretta
Banned
Mesh shaders and primitive shaders are literally not the same. If you guys really cared about the truth you’d seek it.
All you literally have to do is go to YouTube and watch some presentations.
You guys don’t want the truth lol. That’s it that’s all.
winjer
Gold Member
The PS5 does not have Mesh Shaders. It has only Primitive shaders.
There is a significant difference between Mesh Shaders and Primitive shaders.
The render pipeline for Mesh Shaders is more efficient and flexible.
Both AMD, with RNDA1 (via Primitive Shader) and NVIDIA, with Turing (via Mesh Shader), presented Next Generation Geometry Pipeline (NGGP) programming models. Microsoft has rejected AMD's Primitive Shader NGGP.
So AMD had to redo the RDNA2 Geometry Pipeline, to the standard of Mesh Shaders. Sony didn't want to wait until the final version of RDNA2, with Mesh Shaders, so it only has support for Primitive Shaders.
Mesh shaders and Amplification Shaders replace, Input Assembly (fixed function) + Hull Shaders + Tesselation + Domain Shaders + Geometry Shaders.
But Primitive Shaders only replaced VS+DS+GS.
Variable Rate Shading is not Primitive Shaders.
Variable Rate Shading allows to shade less pixels at a time, at the cost of image quality. But if used properly, on less noticeable parts of a scene, it can go unnoticed.
Primitive Shaders is a form of the geometry rendering stage.
Dynamic Resolution is different from Variable Rate Shading.
DRS has been in use on consoles for almost a decade now. It's nothing new.
yes, it has RDNA2 Compute Units.
But it does not have the complete feature set.
It does not have hardware VRS, nor support for DP4a, Int 4, Int8 support, and it has no support for Mesh Shaders.
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assurdum
Banned
Don't waste your time. Make them to believe their console is full RDNA2.
it's from the road to PS5...geometry engine work through primitive shader.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
You made this same post ten times already over the past couple of months, and each time I have to laugh at the amount of cope.You guys have been brain washed by Microsoft with these flashy names that it's becoming so painful.
Mesh Shaders = Geometry Engine
This is literally the exact same thing Mesh Shaders does.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.
Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
VRS = Primitive Shaders
Two different techniques but the same result, saving on performance.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.
It's a brand new capability.
Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.
Dynamic Resolution already makes Microsoft VRS almost useless, while Sony's solution is good for VR.
The PS5 is confirmed to have RDNA 2 CUs.
We built a GPU with 36CUs mind you RDNA2 CUs are large each has 62% more transistors than the CUs we were using on PlayStation 4.
So if we compare transistor counts 36 RDNA2 CUs equates to roughly 58 PlayStation 4 CUs.
By having RDNA 2 CUs, PS5 also has these features.
Plus 256-bit native instructions is also confirm for the CPU.
PlayStation 5 is especially challenging because the CPU supports 256 bit native instructions that consume a lot of power.
These are great here and there but presumably only minimally used or are they if we plan for major 256 bit instruction usage we need to set the CPU clock substantially lower or noticeably increase the size of the power supply and fan.
There is nothing that dispoves all the information I've provided except for fanboyism. What's also funny is the PS5 has more newer tech in it than the XBSX, Bluetooth 5 and WiFi 6 for example.
There are also multiple patents from Sony and Sony aren't playing around with the PS5, so it's guaranteed these are implemented.
Machine Learning Upscaling Patent
COMPUTER-IMPLEMENTED METHOD FOR COMPLETING AN IMAGE
VRS Foveal Rendering Patent
VARYING EFFECTIVE RESOLUTION BY SCREEN LOCATION BY ALTERING RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
METHOD FOR EFFICIENT RE-RENDERING OBJECTS TO VARY VIEWPORTS AND UNDER VARYING RENDERING AND RASTERIZATION PARAMETERS
V-sync Patent
VIDEO FRAME RATE COMPENSATION THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF VERTICAL BLANKING
assurdum
Banned
Not this shit again. The way how primitive shaders are used with the GE on ps5 is the equivalent of the mesh shader efficiency. We don't know yet if it's less efficient. Not sure where you have read it. PS5 GE it's not just about the dated primitive shaders uses. In theory GE should be even more flexible to use than AMD mesh shaders.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Source?
what i always listen from the usual for everything that is still not announced or not present in the PS5 specs one year after launch is: "It's in the console only with a different name", "it's the fault of the dx12s, Sony doesn't use them so it uses 1 other name" etc etc
so finally tell us...where is vrs 2? how they call it ? ...again where you read officialy the support for int4 ..and why so Intel won't support the PS5? why in the road of PS5 Cerny talk about how the GE work with primitive shader ..when the main reason for creating the mesh shader was to abandon the primitive shader? Where did you read (and please post official notes or data that GE and MSh are the same?
Bring verifiable data (from official sources) ...for your claims otherwise nothing you say I will be taken seriously. especially if written by the usual ones.
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assurdum
Banned
About what?
that GE is the same as mesh shader where did you read it ? Sony or Cerny said it ?
I'm ready to change my mind
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winjer
Gold Member
Can you provide a reliable source for these claims?
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
About the claims you make in your post.
assurdum
Banned
Never said GE and mesh shader are same. As always you are totally ignorant about tech matter.
assurdum
Banned
It's the nature of coding. Fixed features as VRS and mesh shader give you the access just to a set of fixed "functions". You can use them but in the MS way. GE in theory give you access to a low level of instructions which allow you to choice how to use those. But it has been explained via Twitter by different developers time ago. That's the advantage of low API level of programming.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Ok, could you provide the tweets please.
You're literally making things up just because narratives are convenient for you. No one has ever said (neither Cerny, Sony, and or other engineers) that the GE is the equivalent in operation or in efficiency. Those are YOUR personal opinions and conjectures. It is not the reality.Now what you say ... that the GE is a primitive shader modified to copy what will be the mesh shader of rdna2 is very probable but I repeat there is no official and unofficial source.Only personal conjectures that leave the time they find.
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assurdum
Banned
It was by a ps5 engineer where talked about VRS Vs GE on ps5. Why you continue to ask about it? What you think to find?
assurdum
Banned
Mind you to tell me who has ever said mesh shader is more efficient than GE on ps5? No one has ever claimed that. We don't know yet.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
I just dont trust you. A legitimate source would change that but your hesitation to provide is making your claims less and less credible.
No one....we know that AMD, manufacturer of the apu and GPU of the two consoles, has dropped everything related to the primitive shader for the new mesh shader (inserted in rdna2) because it is much more flexible and efficient. We know (officially) from Road to PS5 that the PS5 is based on the old primitive shaders (albeit modified)
This, with the info we have, in no case makes the GE comparable to the mesh shader. Stop comparing them without further information
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assurdum
Banned
You don't believe to what exactly? About GE to be more flexible to use than mesh shader? Are you serious?
assurdum
Banned
Again you show to not understand a shit of tech programming. How do you know GE is not comparable to mesh shader in terms of efficiency? How do you know you can't coding a customized mesh shaders using the GE through its set of instructions available on it just via software?
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winjer
Gold Member
Just present the source of your claims.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
That's why this stuff needs to hurry up and hit the market so they can be silenced. I prefer how Nvidia handled RTX and DLSS. They revealed it at the keynote, showed actual titles using it, and a couple months later games started releasing(Battlefield) that used it.
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assurdum
Banned
My source it's called logic of coding. Fixed features are fixed so not flexible to use as low level access to set of instructions. Mind you more flexible not means absolutely superior eh.
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winjer
Gold Member
assurdum
Banned
I explained above your post in different my posts.
Maybe you don't understand, ... I don't know if it is or not , but not knowing doesn't make what you write more truthful. if we began to say for everything that is not official "how can you say that it is not so" everything could be written. i do an example? how you know mesh shader isn't 10x more efficient than GE? ... you don't know either, that's why personal guesswork is stupid when it comes to technology. The PS5 and the GE are based on a GPU that still has the primitive shader as a base ... this is an incontrovertible fact. As it is, there is no official word on vrs2
support yet and apparently (after this Intel stuff corroborates even more what I've been trying to say for months and months) int4 or 8 support. When you have official data I'll change my mind until then are just wishful thinking
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