It's pretty simply why. They knew they needed a cheaper box to get the casuals in early. They counted on soccer moms, casual madden, cod and fifa players, and kids to not know the difference between tflops. Hence the deceptive 1440p vs 4k marketing that we all knew was misleading.Gotta say.........I told you so. It's why I've questioned MS making this box for years now.
yes they canNo you have not. The question is easy:
Can a dev on PC (now or in the future) skip weaker hardware if they want/need to, or not?
When trying to make games comparable at a reduced resolution to a machine that has over 3x the TF power (3.97 vs 12.1) its the biggest elephant in the room.Teraflops aren’t usually used when discussing memory.
Sure you’re equipped enough for this conversation?
When trying to make games comparable at a reduced resolution to a machine that has over 3x the TF power (3.97 vs 12.1) its the biggest elephant in the room.
If true, it gets me sad. I sold my Series X in order to get a Series S and save a few bucks. Now i would need to buy a Series X back again : /
Oh man I loved that movie when I was a kid (Head of State with Chris Rock and Bernie Mac)
Sure did and I'm saying it's not as big of a issue as the huge computational gap.You’re posting this in a thread where it’s specifically said that the biggest pain post is the VRAM size?
Did you even bother to read the OP at all?
It's pretty simply why. They knew they needed a cheaper box to get the casuals in early. They counted on soccer moms, casual madden, cod and fifa players, and kids to not know the difference between tflops. Hence the deceptive 1440p vs 4k marketing that we all knew was misleading.
The goal was to sell as many boxes as possible and they knew $500 xbox consoles dont sell. They were right and now Xbox is outselling the PS5 in recent months. Probably related to the stock situation but I am convinced that 60-70% of the xbox sales are series s sales.
It's all about market penetration and they thought a $300 console no matter the sacrifices to the user experience would be good enough. I wouldve personally had them release a 10 tflops $399 console like the PS5, or an 8 tflops machine and eat up the $100 loss instead of passing it on to the consumer. The tflops to dollar ratio is revealing. $75 per tflop vs $40 per tflop for the XSX. They wanted the casual audience but werent willing to eat up the cost themselves. An 8 tflops machine wouldve been perfect for 1080p while 12 tflops xsx targeted 1440p.
Sure did and I'm saying it's not as big of a issue as the huge computational gap.
I don't work at Mojang so idk. Fact is it can't run even on XSX, so blaming XSS makes no sense.Mojang (being MS) had dev kits before most other devs. Are you suggesting Mojang didn't know pathtracing can't run on consoles before announcing raytracing on consoles?
Come on. If it's path tracing they wanted and "you and I know" it can't run on consoles why didn't Mojang?
Haven't seen too many people speculating on positive outcomes. I also thought Alex wasn't to be trusted so it's interesting people seem to believe him now. I also thought DF was anti-Sony so I'd like to see how this narrative helps MS in any way. Lots of shifting around.I think it should be pointed out that DF said devs stated XSS was a pain. They didn't say it made game development impossible. In the video, John also speculated that this may help XSX and PS5 versions in some ways.....
I don't get it either. Alot here are quoting devs stating the memory limitations but have never quoted a dev specifically say that the XSS will hold back a game. Because that's real reason the concern is there right?This. I have both the series x and S... And I have no problems with the S. Images looks slightly blurrier, textures not as good, and frame rates slightly lower (although I would say the average casual player wouldnt notice that much difference) . I wasn't expecting anything else. It's a useful console for my casual games or when I just want a quick blast of something and the other TV Is being used.
I don't get the literal hate for this console. If you want a next gen console with all the bells and whistles.... Don't buy it
Pretty sure Nintendo’s success influenced them, too.It's pretty simply why. They knew they needed a cheaper box to get the casuals in early. They counted on soccer moms, casual madden, cod and fifa players, and kids to not know the difference between tflops. Hence the deceptive 1440p vs 4k marketing that we all knew was misleading.
The goal was to sell as many boxes as possible and they knew $500 xbox consoles dont sell. They were right and now Xbox is outselling the PS5 in recent months. Probably related to the stock situation but I am convinced that 60-70% of the xbox sales are series s sales.
It's all about market penetration and they thought a $300 console no matter the sacrifices to the user experience would be good enough. I wouldve personally had them release a 10 tflops $399 console like the PS5, or an 8 tflops machine and eat up the $100 loss instead of passing it on to the consumer. The tflops to dollar ratio is revealing. $75 per tflop vs $40 per tflop for the XSX. They wanted the casual audience but werent willing to eat up the cost themselves. An 8 tflops machine wouldve been perfect for 1080p while 12 tflops xsx targeted 1440p.
How many games have you developed? Do you own a Series X/S devkit?
You can't get blood from a stone.
4TF's is 4TF's is 4TF's
Haven't seen too many people speculating on positive outcomes. I also thought Alex wasn't to be trusted so it's interesting people seem to believe him now. I also thought DF was anti-Sony so I'd like to see how this narrative helps MS in any way. Lots of shifting around.
Stop gaslighting. He is just repeating the same thing we heard before launch, during, and till this day from various sources. Everyone knows he's a PCMR graphics whore (and most PCMR are MS/Xbox adjacent by proxy in their biases). He never made that a secret now or in his past on Gaf or Ree with his 'Dictator' account posts. He bias trolls like the rest of us.I also thought Alex wasn't to be trusted so it's interesting people seem to believe him now. I also thought DF was anti-Sony so I'd like to see how this narrative helps MS in any way. Lots of shifting around.
They should unionize, and have 3 Sippy cup breaks every 15 minutes for 20 minutes each in a 6 hour work day. Air-conditioned chairs and a personal masseuse in their cubicles as well.My heart breaks for our long suffering game devs, how do they cope with such working conditions…
"slightly" is an exaggeration. difference can be huge. sub 1080p resolutions are not optimal for temporal anti aliasing solutions. a minimum of 1440p is required to maintain somewhat of a decent image quality.This. I have both the series x and S... And I have no problems with the S. Images looks slightly blurrier, textures not as good, and frame rates slightly lower (although I would say the average casual player wouldnt notice that much difference) . I wasn't expecting anything else. It's a useful console for my casual games or when I just want a quick blast of something and the other TV Is being used.
I don't get the literal hate for this console. If you want a next gen console with all the bells and whistles.... Don't buy it
They set what minimum specs they need to per game rising when it will need to . The series S will have same specs the entire gen.No you have not. The question is easy:
Can a dev on PC (now or in the future) skip weaker hardware if they want/need to, or not?
If you say so but then you would have to admit that MS completely bullshitted you and DF then at least. You know because everyone knows consoles can't do that raytracing so how did we all fall for it.I don't work at Mojang so idk. Fact is it can't run even on XSX, so blaming XSS makes no sense.
Exactly. That's the point. On PC a dev can just increase the minimum requirements if they hit a bottleneck. On Xbox they have to release for Series S if they want to release on Xbox.They set what minimum specs they need to per game rising when it will need to . The series S will have same specs the entire gen.
PC gaming has evolve anyway as direct storage is going be required near future meaning lot of people are going to have upgrade.
Exactly. That's the point. On PC a dev can just increase the minimum requirements if they hit a bottleneck. On Xbox they have to release for Series S if they want to release on Xbox.
Given that Series S will make up a substantial part of Xbox Series sales, why would any dev even want to skip the Series S when it means they’ll get less money?
Of course devs will say it takes extra work to slim textures down and manage memory on the Series S. But there’s no real indication that it’s an insurmountable challenge.
I don't get the literal hate for this console.
DF found that the Series S version of the Matrix demo drops significantly BELOW 533p. We might be looking at 360p-480p here. Metro exodus dropped to 512p. I doubt Series S owners care about resolutions, but people do buy consoles with the expectation that it is up to current gen standards. 533p wasnt even acceptable in the PS360 era.In at attempt to chase dollars and market share, Microsoft purposely released an inferior spec console as "next-gen" which will have the result of extending cross-gen fuckery on Xbox platforms for the life of the generation.
Instead of the typical 18-24 month window of cross-gen issues, developers will always have to deal with a lesser device that its casual user base was misled into believing it was a digital Series X with a lower price tag. That doesn't just affect the owners of the Series S, it affects the owners of ALL Xbox platforms. Or as one tweet on the topic I saw recently said, and unfortunately I cannot find it to link to it: "Min spec matters."
Those users are going to find themselves left behind pretty quickly when developers finally move on and begin pushing the capabilities of the Series X and PS5. And they're going to have severe buyer's remorse when the bulk of new games are "Optimized for Series X | S" (which will require the SSD) and they discover they have no choice but to go spend another $200+ dollars on the Seagate Expansion Drive just to have anything resembling adequate storage space. Sure, they could buy a mechanical USB drive as cold storage but you really think that demographic is going to want to sit there waiting forever to transfer 100+GB files back and forth between a mechanical HDD and the internal SSD?
It was a cash grab that will affect all Xbox owners.
Just wondering What would you say was acceptable in that era?DF found that the Series S version of the Matrix demo drops significantly BELOW 533p. We might be looking at 360p-480p here. Metro exodus dropped to 512p. I doubt Series S owners care about resolutions, but people do buy consoles with the expectation that it is up to current gen standards. 533p wasnt even acceptable in the PS360 era.
720p. DF made their name outing every single PS3 game that was 640p or below. I remember people dismissing MGS4 because it was 640p.Just wondering What would you say was acceptable in that era?
So 900p-1080p Xb1 and PS4 era I presume and yet we have 1080p and below in some Ps5 games and maybe XSX of the top of my head.720p. DF made their name outing every single PS3 game that was 640p or below. I remember people dismissing MGS4 because it was 640p.
I think 1080p is low but if you cant tell then its fine. With the Series S version I can clearly see giant chunky blocky artifacts. it is not acceptable IQ. Something like DriveClub and Batman AK look terrible on a large 4k screen despite being native 4k but a good solution like matrix with TSR is fine.So 900p-1080p Xb1 and PS4 era I presume and yet we have 1080p and below in some Ps5 games and maybe XSX of the top of my head.
But it can be played on a smaller screen and it doesn't look so bad. I've played Metro Exodus on a 55" and the outside areas I was a bit wow that's too blurry. I played on a 40 or 42" I think and it was a lot better.I think 1080p is low but if you cant tell then its fine. With the Series S version I can clearly see giant chunky blocky artifacts. it is not acceptable IQ. Something like DriveClub and Batman AK look terrible on a large 4k screen despite being native 4k but a good solution like matrix with TSR is fine.
Series S is not able to overcome its raw pixel counts no matter what upscaling they use.
720p?Just wondering What would you say was acceptable in that era?
There is no correct answer.720p?
I played a lot on PC that gen and even big console games like RDR had terrible IQ in those years.There is no correct answer.
I havent had a 40 inch tv since maybe around 2012. It's been all 55 inch for me and while the 1080p 55 inch hit the jaggies in DC and Batman AC rather well, the 4k sets i own exposed their poor IQ immediately. I am not lying when I say they are unplayable. I tired playing Horizon on PC at 1080p, Anthem and other unoptimized games on PC at 1080p to hit 60 fps and they were just too grainy at that resolution.But it can be played on a smaller screen and it doesn't look so bad. I've played Metro Exodus on a 55" and the outside areas I was a bit wow that's too blurry. I played on a 40 or 42" I think and it was a lot better.
Series S memory should be better compared to Series X in most cases but I'm guessing the problem comes in when 16GBs is the floor for PS5 then the devs have to adjust when making the game for Series consoles because of Series S.
In at attempt to chase dollars and market share, Microsoft purposely released an inferior spec console as "next-gen" which will have the result of extending cross-gen fuckery on Xbox platforms for the life of the generation.
That doesn't just affect the owners of the Series S, it affects the owners of ALL Xbox platforms. Or as one tweet on the topic I saw recently said, and unfortunately I cannot find it to link to it: "Min spec matters."
Those users are going to find themselves left behind pretty quickly when developers finally move on and begin pushing the capabilities of the Series X and PS5.
And they're going to have severe buyer's remorse when the bulk of new games are "Optimized for Series X | S" (which will require the SSD) and they discover they have no choice but to go spend another $200+ dollars on the Seagate Expansion Drive just to have anything resembling adequate storage space. Sure, they could buy a mechanical USB drive as cold storage but you really think that demographic is going to want to sit there waiting forever to transfer 100+GB files back and forth between a mechanical HDD and the internal SSD?
It was a cash grab that will affect all Xbox owners.
Yep. RDR on PS3 looked really bad. COD Ghosts was blasted for running at 720p on the X1 at launch. It was definitely unacceptable and future cods all came in around 900-1080p after that backlash. MS even forced Crystal Dynamics to run Tomb Raider at 1080p which caused a lot of issues with framedrops because the GPU wasnt powerful enough to render a fancy looking next gen game at 1080p.I played a lot on PC that gen and even big console games like RDR had terrible IQ in that gen.
I'm fine with 1080p but anything below that is really rough and always was (once we moved from CRTs at least).
Pretty hard lesson they are already learning, being able to supply a constant amount of Series S while they are struggling with Sony to supply the more powerful Series X and PS5.Not surprised. Xbox will learn this lesson the hard way in the coming years
It's about expectations. I don't play my SS and expect anywhere near the quality of my SX or PS5. It really is that simple.I played a lot on PC that gen and even big console games like RDR had terrible IQ in that gen.
I'm fine with 1080p but anything below that is really rough and always was (once we moved from CRTs at least).
I understand. I was a resolution snob at one point and it was hard for me to go back to 1080p, it looked so jaggie and blocky. But I must have adjusted back somehow.I havent had a 40 inch tv since maybe around 2012. It's been all 55 inch for me and while the 1080p 55 inch hit the jaggies in DC and Batman AC rather well, the 4k sets i own exposed their poor IQ immediately. I am not lying when I say they are unplayable. I tired playing Horizon on PC at 1080p, Anthem and other unoptimized games on PC at 1080p to hit 60 fps and they were just too grainy at that resolution.
On the other hand, DLSS 1440p games look fine. Matrix demo which is 1080p internally looks fine. So if Series S has to use FSR 2.0 or TSR to get it to look good on bigger 4k screens that are fairly common right now then ok, but scaling from 1080p to 4k is one thing, scaling from 512p to 1080p isnt ideal.
At least not on larger 4k sets, I will take your word for it looking better on a smaller 40 inch screen.
The PS3 was a pain the ass to develop for. Sure, most multi platform games played worse compared to the 360 but it still got all the games. Maybe the series s is a pain in the ass to develop for. Devs still aren't going to exclude it. They can't. Too bad!Not surprised. Xbox will learn this lesson the hard way in the coming years
Keep in mind that PPI/DPI matters more than the physical resolution. A 27" 1080p monitor has the same PPI as your 55" 4k TV and if you view both from the same distance then they will be equally sharp/blurry. The only difference is that the TV is 4x bigger.I havent had a 40 inch tv since maybe around 2012. It's been all 55 inch for me and while the 1080p 55 inch hit the jaggies in DC and Batman AC rather well, the 4k sets i own exposed their poor IQ immediately. I am not lying when I say they are unplayable. I tired playing Horizon on PC at 1080p, Anthem and other unoptimized games on PC at 1080p to hit 60 fps and they were just too grainy at that resolution.
On the other hand, DLSS 1440p games look fine. Matrix demo which is 1080p internally looks fine. So if Series S has to use FSR 2.0 or TSR to get it to look good on bigger 4k screens that are fairly common right now then ok, but scaling from 1080p to 4k is one thing, scaling from 512p to 1080p isnt ideal.
At least not on larger 4k sets, I will take your word for it looking better on a smaller 40 inch screen.
Man ive played Matrix on my PS5 and then on my 3080 at native 4k and while native 4k clearly looks better, the PS5 version looks perfectly fine on my LG CX. I will try playing it on my LCD and see if it looks bad.Keep in mind that PPI/DPI matters more than the physical resolution. A 27" 1080p monitor has the same PPI as your 55" 4k TV and if you view both from the same distance then they will be equally sharp/blurry. The only difference is that the TV is 4x bigger.
I also kinda disagree about the 1080p Matrix demo looking good enough on 4k screens. I'm sticking with my old plasma TV for this gen and it looks vastly better on that than it does on my 4k LCD. Same goes for other 1080p native games like Returnal.