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[Riky]

And the rest of the developers? You think they aren't aware of your acronyms?

Seriously they should hire you as a consultant, I think you could turn it all around for them.

"My" acronyms?

I'm just sharing what Microsoft have made readily available for developers, your obsession with me is sad.





Maybe tell Microsoft and AMD they are wrong, you can quote your sources from Neogaf too.

 

[Three]

You think Halo doesn't have raytracing because of XSS? Interesting theory, considering how slow 343 are with literally everything they do. Also you mentioned "a lot" of first party devs, who else promised raytracing and didn't deliver?

Partly yes, because it's not worth the effort that it would take. Especially for somebody like 343. When most of your next gen console sales are XSS why bother maintaining a raytracing version of a game for a small subset of xbox owners.

The other studio is Mojang. They announced the raytracing update almost 3 years ago I think. Had a preview recently but they pulled it as a mistake and said they don't know if it will release. I hope it eventually comes but to me it seems like something is giving them trouble.

Phil before lockhart was a lock and it was all about Scarlet was always hyping raytracing. "amazing, like going from 2d to 3d" Phil would say. Now though after the fact and the struggle to get RT on XSS due to memory are happening he says things like this:
"When I think about games where ray-tracing has had a dramatic impact on my experience as a player, it’s kind of spotty"

Hence raytracing is being dropped on engines that they struggled to support XSS with because it simply isn't worth the effort or very low on the priority list when your sales are XSS.

 

[Tams]

Wow, I wonder what they say about PC then seeing as how it's actually the lowest common denominator.

Because a developer can publish whatever minimum specs they want and only offer support if you meet or exceed them.

If you still want to try running their game on a potato, well no one's stopping you, you just won't get support or a refund.

This isn't rocket science. It might be hard for a console warrior to grasp though.

 

[Calverz]

Wow we are creating threads now based on tweets from fanboys.
Think il go create a thread from timdog now I know it’s fair game.

 

[Arioco]

Nothing new to be honest.

Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate​

Several developers at DOOM studio id Software have expressed their concerns over the recently announced specs of Microsoft’s Xbox Series S, more specifically, its RAM.​

This “memory situation” is being regarded as a major issue by id Software lead engine programmer, Billy Khan, and principal engine programmer Axel Gneiting.

https://wccftech.com/id-software-devs-concerns-xbox-series-s-specs/

Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters.

— Axel Gneiting (@axelgneiting)

The memory situation is a big issue on the S. The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.

— Billy Khan (@billykhan)

https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/17/...xt-gen-gaming-performance-gpu-memory-hardware

“Really bummed about this RAM situation on the Series S,” said Axel Gneiting, a principal engine programmer at id Software, in a now deleted tweet. “This isn’t easy to compensate and drags down base spec quite a bit for next-gen multi platform.”

Sasan Sepehr, a senior technical producer at Remedy Entertainment, also shared a brief concern. “As a consumer, I love this,” said Sepher on Twitter. “As a Technical Producer, I see trouble.”

 

[kingfey]

If you played the game, there is one certain gameplay mechanic that was 100% impacted by cross gen development to catter to slow hard drives. I'll let you guess.

SSD.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The other studio is Mojang. They announced the raytracing update almost 3 years ago I think. Had a preview recently but they pulled it as a mistake and said they don't know if it will release. I hope it eventually comes but to me it seems like something is giving them trouble.

I think the fact that Minecraft uses pathtracing is what's giving them trouble. No console can run that properly, it only runs on RTX cards.

Phil before lockhart was a lock and it was all about Scarlet was always hyping raytracing. "amazing, like going from 2d to 3d" Phil would say.

That wasn't about raytracing, he specifically mentioned CPU, DLI, mem bandwidth and SSD as the reasons.

"When I think about games where ray-tracing has had a dramatic impact on my experience as a player, it’s kind of spotty"

I agree with him, raytracing on consoles just isn't that great. Nvidia is much stronger in that department.

Hence raytracing is being dropped on engines that they struggled to support XSS with because it simply isn't worth the effort or very low on the priority list when your sales are XSS.

I still don't think XSS is the reason here. It's just 343 being slow.

 

[onnextflix5]

Just dont release your game on xss, if its a big problem. Wish ms just released a digital xsx then a underpowered console.

 

[Topher]

Wow we are creating threads now based on tweets from fanboys.
Think il go create a thread from timdog now I know it’s fair game.

The only purpose of the tweet is the embedded video from the DF podcast.

 

[Riky]

Just dont release your game on xss, if its a big problem. Wish ms just released digital xsx then a underpowered console.

You have to release on XSS with XSX.

 

[Hezekiah]

As someone described in this thread, it's backdoor console warring. They can't shit on the XSX for obvious reasons so they let it all out on the XSS

I disagree, it's limitations are the reason for why many people have issues with the Series S.

And actually both consoles have had misleading marketing attached to them. Series X has now gone from 'The most powerful console' to 'The most powerful Xbox', and as mentioned previously the Series S isn't being pushed as a 1440p machine anymore.

 

[Negotiator101]

The S was a mistake and Microsoft will suffer for it.

The only ones suffering are the ones who are reading your tripe.

 

[Hezekiah]

Whenever Riky shows up in a topic all authoritarian and defending the indefensible, I like to drop the gift that keeps on giving. Enjoy, and ignore him.

That post should be stickied.

Alongside the all the ones where he said VRR gives a performance boost.

 

[sircaw]

With the future in mind.

Will this improve over time as new software/coding techniques are improved or is the physical limitation of the hardware just too much to bare going forward?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I disagree, it's limitations are the reason for why many people have issues with the Series S.

I'm not convinced, since those people don't own a Series S, which means the only issue they can have with it is it eventually holding back the other two consoles. Sadly, nobody seems to be able to explain why allegedly PS5/XSX target versions aren't scalable to XSS.

And actually both consoles have had misleading marketing attached to them. Series X has now gone from 'The most powerful console' to 'The most powerful Xbox', and as mentioned previously the Series S isn't being pushed as a 1440p machine anymore.

I don't see how that's misleading. Unless you think pushing PS5 as a 4K console is also misleading. It's all about targets.

 

[Topher]

Found the entire discussion in the podcast. Here it is timestamped:

 

[Negotiator101]

Partly yes, because it's not worth the effort that it would take. Especially for somebody like 343. When most of your next gen console sales are XSS why bother maintaining a raytracing version of a game for a small subset of xbox owners.

The other studio is Mojang. They announced the raytracing update almost 3 years ago I think. Had a preview recently but they pulled it as a mistake and said they don't know if it will release. I hope it eventually comes but to me it seems like something is giving them trouble.

Phil before lockhart was a lock and it was all about Scarlet was always hyping raytracing. "amazing, like going from 2d to 3d" Phil would say. Now though after the fact and the struggle to get RT on XSS due to memory are happening he says things like this:
"When I think about games where ray-tracing has had a dramatic impact on my experience as a player, it’s kind of spotty"

Hence raytracing is being dropped on engines that they struggled to support XSS with because it simply isn't worth the effort or very low on the priority list when your sales are XSS.

I suggest waiting for the current generation only titles due this year and beyond. I wouldn't judge next gen graphics features on cross gen titles.

 

[ZywyPL]

The 128-bit bus is too low nowadays no matter how you slice it, SFS ir not, so no wonder.

I can't understand why MS can't figure out a proper RAM setup, X360 is what brought unified memory pool which developers loved so much, then they came with XB1 and it's infamous ESRAM, then they redeemed themselves with X1X, and now we have Series S/X with once again some weird memory setup nobody asked for...

Sony on the other hand learned their lesson after PS3 and they keep it as simple as it gets and we haven't seen a single complain from the devs ever since.

If MS wanted to save money they could've gone for seperate DDR memory just for the OS paired with proper GDDR setup for the games.

 

[Three]

I think the fact that Minecraft uses pathtracing is what's giving them trouble. No console can run that properly, it only runs on RTX cards.

That wasn't about raytracing, he specifically mentioned CPU, DLI, mem bandwidth and SSD as the reasons.

I agree with him, raytracing on consoles just isn't that great. Nvidia is much stronger in that department.

I still don't think XSS is the reason here. It's just 343 being slow.

He literally says in the same breath "Ray tracing on consoles is going to be amazing" along with mentioning CPU, mem bandwidth (which is what XSS is poor at) and DLI.

Mojang didn't know what path tracing is? They announced raytracing for consoles specifically and failed to deliver so far. But who knows what Mojang's actual plan is. Maybe they want to go to cloud rendered worlds or something and we hear something in June. All I know is MS first party are struggling to get raytracing on XSS on multiple engines and raytracing updates for games are taking way too long or being cancelled by them now.

 

[Godot25]

I don't see how that's misleading. Unless you think pushing PS5 as a 4K console is also misleading. It's all about targets.

Yeah. Gotta love that double standard
Microsoft markets XSS as 1440p machine - FALSE ADVERTISING
Sony markets PS5 as 4K machine, while Returnal is running at 1080p - TOTALY OKAY

 

[Bernd Lauert]

All I know is MS first party are struggling to get raytracing on XSS on multiple engines and raytracing updates for games are taking way too long or being cancelled by them now.

You know that 343 is slow (they haven't even fixed VRR yet) and you know that pathtracing can't run on the currently available consoles. Blaming the XSS for this is weird.

 

[kraspkibble]

it'll be fine. we're not out the cross gen period yet. if developing for the series S is a pain then it's even more of a pain to develop for 2013 hardware.

that said, i do think MS should release an updated Series S model. nothing too crazy but it would let developers cut back for the OG series s.

 

[Riky]

I disagree, it's limitations are the reason for why many people have issues with the Series S.

And actually both consoles have had misleading marketing attached to them. Series X has now gone from 'The most powerful console' to 'The most powerful Xbox', and as mentioned previously the Series S isn't being pushed as a 1440p machine anymore.

Amazon UK, right now.

 

[MasterCornholio]

The Riky is presented with 2 options.

Option A - ignore the developer who dared to criticize Rik’s precious Xbox.

Option B - agree with the developer who belongs to Rik’s beloved Xbox Game Studios.

Either way he loses. Let’s see which one he goes for.

Not trying to be a console warring asshole but Billy was correct there. Not all games are straight up lower resolution Series X versions. Some of them have additional compromises made to them. Maybe more ram could have eliminated that but there's a significant power difference between the two platforms.

Not saying the Series S is bad but it certainly wasn't designed to play Series X versions of games at just a lower resolution. That's understandable because they had to make cuts somewhere to reach that price point. Nothing wrong with having a budget entry but people should know what they are buying with it.

 

[Riky]

That post should be stickied.

Alongside the all the ones where he said VRR gives a performance boost.

I never said that at all, I said it enables modes with better performance, which it has on both Xbox and PS5 now. So I was right yet again.

 

[Captain Toad]

As long as this doesn’t impact series x, i couldn’t care less.

That's a big IF. Anything developers want to do for Series X, they have to keep in mind they'll also have to get it to work on Series S.

Series S will be the bottleneck for the entire generation.

 

[ButchCat]

Omega 3 and Ginseng should help you with that developers.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

That's a big IF. Anything developers want to do for Series X, they have to keep in mind they'll also have to get it to work on Series S.

Series S will be the bottleneck for the entire generation.

Series S can do everything the X can do, just often not at the same time, so you can easily cut things back if needed. Explain how this holds back the "generation". I can think of only one scenario but it's highly unlikely it ever happens and I'm curious about your thoughts.

 

[phil_t98]

The Series S memory is 8GB at 224GB/s ( half the speed of the Series X) and 2GB at a very low speed of 56GB/s.
The split is in the speed. I don't think the entire 2GB is reserved for OS.

you don't think? or you know its not reserved?

thinking is your own interpretation of it and know it is seeing facts so which is it?

 

[Krappadizzle]

Based on the Steam PC spec charts most gaming PCs have specs worse than the XSS.

The Steam PC spec stat has been proven to be a poor indicator. You can install Steam on a cheap laptop for the sole purpose of using it's very robust social aspects or play very old and low-spec games like Half Life 1 mods and it counts as another PC user. And that's done often enough that it pushes the average hardware of the platform down so low, that, while a cool metric to consider, it's essentially useless in telling a developer anything of consequence.

 

[Drew1440]

Arn't most gaming PCs similar in specs to the Series S? at least according to the steam hardware survey.
That said, the series s will be here for the next 5 years at least, which I can understand the developer concerns. I can see Microsoft refreshing both systems mid generation.

 

[phil_t98]

And if you need help - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bottleneck

another 2 year old tweet

 

[phil_t98]

You heard the terms target platform, lowest common denominator, path of least resistance, time, money, budget?

The bottleneck is the practicality quotient. Like an example above, if S can’t do Raytracing at whatever target - there is a good chance you won’t see it on x for the game either.

so what about PC that can't do ray tracing? do they just not develop it for PC that can do ray tracing as well?

Also if they aint developing ray tracing for xbox why would they put in the extra effort for playstation to?

I mean why bother at all?

 

[Hezekiah]

Amazon UK, right now.

So they're still lying, on Amazon anyway. On their website they changed their marketing message once games started coming out:

I never said that at all, I said it enables modes with better performance, which it has on both Xbox and PS5 now. So I was right yet again.

No, you just refused to admit that it doesn't boost performance.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

So they're still lying, on Amazon anyway.

If they're lying, try suing them for misleading marketing. Easy money, right?

 

[Topher]

Arn't most gaming PCs similar in specs to the Series S? at least according to the steam hardware survey.
That said, the series s will be here for the next 5 years at least, which I can understand the developer concerns. I can see Microsoft refreshing both systems mid generation.

The concern isn't GPU/CPU specs but the memory configuration.

 

[Hezekiah]

If they're lying, try suing them for misleading marketing. Easy money, right?

They'll probably do what you and Riky do and start throwing around muh teraflops.

Simple math, right?

 

[Riky]

So they're still lying, on Amazon anyway. On their website they changed their marketing message once games started coming out:

No, you just refused to admit that it doesn't boost performance.

How are they lying, you are saying they changed their marketing when they didn't.
They had a marketing scheme for Series X, then when they announced Series S they adjusted it so one says most powerful Xbox and the other says sleekest most affordable Xbox for Series S.
Its that simple.

Quote where I said it boosted performance.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

They'll probably do what you and Riky do and start throwing around muh teraflops.

Simple math, right?

Compute power is compute power. It's hardly a lie, just because some cross gen games scale better with clock speed than with CUs.

 

[Hezekiah]

How are they lying, you are saying they changed their marketing when they didn't.
They had a marketing scheme for Series X, then when they announced Series S they adjusted it so one says most powerful Xbox and the other says sleekest most affordable Xbox for Series S.
Its that simple.

They changed the marketing on their website, it was posted several times on here, world's most powerful console etc.

Then multiplatform games started coming out and they quickly changed it. Looks like the lies continue on the Amazon site at least though.

 

[Calverz]

The only purpose of the tweet is the embedded video from the DF podcast.

That’s not good enough reason. Quote the original comment and link to the source. This just drives traffic to a fanboy on Twitter.

 

[Hezekiah]

Compute power is compute power. It's hardly a lie, just because some cross gen games scale better with clock speed than with CUs.

Yeah compute power is really what gamers need to know about, because that's what matters.

You should apply for a job at Nvidia.

 

[Riky]

If they're lying, try suing them for misleading marketing. Easy money, right?

Hopefully they will put the claim documents on here, I could do with a laugh.

 

[Riky]

you don't think? or you know its not reserved?

thinking is your own interpretation of it and know it is seeing facts so which is it?

He's clueless, developers and Microsoft have quoted 8gb for games, even in the articles I've posted in this very thread.

 

[Ozriel]

The ironic thing about this thread is that the next gen Switch will get pretty most of all the multiplatform ports…and will undoubtedly be weaker than the Series S.

So there’s the ‘bottleneck’ you’re all scared about.

 

[ClosBSAS]

Lol se knew this from the beginning. Devs are mostly counting on fsr and new tech to help it. I have one and I love it. For high end I have my 3080ti. Seems like playstation fans are trying to look for the jugular to kill Ms...lol.

 

[Riky]

They changed the marketing on their website, it was posted several times on here, world's most powerful console etc.

Then multiplatform games started coming out and they quickly changed it. Looks like the lies continue on the Amazon site at least though.

No they didn't, they adjusted when Series S was announced, like I said. It's just deluded fanboys who think it was for any other reason.

 

[spons]

Can't even run Xbox One X enhanced backwards compatible games on the Series S due to the gimped RAM, even though the rest of the device is powerful enough.

 

[Three]

I suggest waiting for the current generation only titles due this year and beyond. I wouldn't judge next gen graphics features on cross gen titles.

Wasn't mentioning it regarding next gen graphics. Halo Infinite and Minecraft aren't exactly barometers for next gen graphics so I'm not judging next gen graphics on them.

Just a comment about the id devs view and the resulting Doom Eternal next gen patch where the struggle with memory didn't allow raytracing on the XSS and how that may be creeping into MS decision making for those games/engines specifically and their new view on raytracing in general.
I'm sure next gen titles will look nicer than Halo and Minecraft.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

No they didn't, they adjusted when Series S was announced, like I said. It's just deluded fanboys who think it was for any other reason.

No, they obviously changed their marketing because of Digital Foundry's Ass Creed Vallhala benchmark video. Everybody knows that.