angrod14
Member
Brace yourself, because it's probably also releasing on PS3/360.
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
H . R . 2
Member
it will be impressive but not because of the current-gen consoles, but because of the fact that ps4-X1X will be able to run it.
similar to how impressive it was for R* to run that massive game on 360-PS3
so in a nutshell it will be impressive but for all the wrong reasons
TheRedRiders
Member
Sony's first parties were consistent in pushing the hardware and it's features during the PS4 era. There's no reason to doubt that they'll do the same with the PS5. Who gives a shit whether they target native 4K or not, as long as the visuals deliver. R&C, Demon's Souls and HFW have been the best looking games released since the PS5 launch, and they look better than a majority of the third party titles released within that time frame.
Let's wait for Spider-man 2, Bluepoint will deliver like they did with Demon's Souls and so will Guerrilla. Death Stranding 2 already looks next-gen. Days Gone was one of the best looking games of last-gen and it often gets overlooked but they're talented enough to deliver on next-gen visuals. My point is we have little reason to doubt the visual results these studios will deliver over the next 5 years, especially Sony's first party.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
It really kills me that these games are not being updated on console for 4k. Kills me. Driveclub, the Orde, ryse, AK and others.
Gameplay assets on the PC.
AK (2015 released) still has the best assets (realistic modeling, shaders, textures, animations) in a retail game to me.
I still load this shit up from time to time and get my shit blown away. The team that worked on this old ass game is just different.
Driveclub was the game that got me into racing. Drifting was ao much fun in that. Races against ai were well balanced and competitive. Sense of speed the best I've played in a game. The 30 fps didn't bother me in this game. Sony is doing us dirty not patching this. Same with The Order and Arkham Knight. These 3 games would indeed expose the industry in 2023 for how graphics have slowed down.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Just down to money like always. There's simply no reason to spend money and resources doing it when there will never be a sequel or DLC for any of it. I thought Phil would have pushed for Arkham Knight's framerate limit being taken off on Xbox but now understand why it didn't happen looking at the engine in Gotham Knights being so CPU bound. It maybe never got anywhere near 60fps or was just really, really unstable. A shame as AK is one of the best looking games of the gen when on a PC at 4k/60.
ricardo_sousa11
Member
This looks quite good
Lumpyoatmeal
Member
This Last of Us game released like 4 months ago on retail, but look at the difference in the materials. How is this even possible? That's a whole 7 year gap.
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Lumpyoatmeal
Member
Shit the only retail game I've seen that is on AK level of rendering different materials on a gameplay character asset is Mortal Kombat 11. I'm trying to look for more retail games that is doing this.
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Very cool game, I just hope it is not one of those games that never see the light of day
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Well, Demon Souls and Ratchet maybe the best looking games but they are far below the Matrix and other UE5 demos. I mean if a last gen game like HFW is outclassing Demon Souls and Ratchet then surely they arent pushing the PS5, are they?
The whole discussion started because Gymwolf asked me what i think of DS. Is it next gen? If Spiderman 2 looks as good as DS which doenst even look as good as HFW then would you be ok with that? If Spiderman looks just as good as HFW, should it even be considered next gen?
Rendering targets matter. How do you think GG managed to upgrade their lighting, character models, foliage, interactivity in foliage, draw distance, and water rendering on the PS4 for hfw over hzd? They lowered the rendering budget from 1080p to 900p. why do you think The order still looks better than most next gen games? They added black bars to reduce the rendering budget to somewhere around the budget of a 900p game. Why were Driveclub and Forza horizon games able to add stunning vistas with 3d trees, amazing details and in the case of driveclub entire weather simulations? they targeted 30 fps instead of 60 fps reducing the pixel budget of other 1080p 60 fps games like the Forza Motorsport and GT series.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Great points and I wish more people would 'get' this concept that you keep bringing up. Gotta disagree with you about Horizon outclassing Demon's Souls and Ratchet though. Those gamed are at least on the level of Horizon. They all do things slightly different making comparisons not straightforward. They're the 3 best looking next gen games.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Outclassing is probably a bit too harsh, but just being on par is super weird considering the gap between PS3 late gen games like TLOU and PS4 early gen games like Ryse and Infamous Second Son were so apparent from day one. It wasnt even a contest. Everything from character models to lighting and asset quality got a massive boost. You couldnt put AC unity next to a last gen cross gen game and have people say they are on par.
HFW does pretty much everything better than Ratchet and Demon Souls. I wouldve expected the character models to look better. the lighting to look better. the physics, animations, destruction, or any one graphics effect that truly outclasses HFW, but i honestly cant think of one other than the skybox detail in Ratchet.
arkhamguy123
Member
I think Demon Souls and Ratchet edge out horizon personally.
SkyHighTrees
Member
if we talking materials and how light reacts to them, look for GT7 on PS5. Strictly materials though
01011001
Banned
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murmulis
Member
Rocksteady heavily modified UE3 for this game. UE3 doesn't support PBR out of the box. I guess they didn't have other choice. UE4 was not out yet in 2011 when the development began and switching to UE4 mid-development would have been a terrible idea. Early UE4 also was a lot more buggy and unstable. That's why they decided to upgrade the old renderer instead.
Lumpyoatmeal
Member
01011001, that’s what I was saying, it’s crazy.
Not only did they graphically knocked it out of the park, but the fucking artists basically said “fuck just referencing the real world 1:1 like the rest of these game developers, let’s actually use our imaginations and still visually output better realism.” A straight masterclass, archive shit.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Lol at the rain effects in RE4.
This is what ND was doing last gen.
\
And Rocksteady in 2015.
This looks more like Days Gone's snow lol
2023 was supposed to save us from cross gen mediocrity but man Forspoken, Dead Space and now RE4?? we are in for another rough year.
This is what ND was doing last gen.
And Rocksteady in 2015.
This looks more like Days Gone's snow lol
2023 was supposed to save us from cross gen mediocrity but man Forspoken, Dead Space and now RE4?? we are in for another rough year.
Gorgyles
Banned
Great post,
SlimySnake
We're in a minimal effort crossgen nightmare right now
PS5 is a PS4Pro+
The fact that my rain overlay high contrast Re4 Gamecube GIF looks pretty comparable to the remake is sad.
Rain should be 3D
And if it's raining you shouldn't actually be able to see many individual raindrops
much less be able to track them across the screen
SlimySnake
We're in a minimal effort crossgen nightmare right now
PS5 is a PS4Pro+
The fact that my rain overlay high contrast Re4 Gamecube GIF looks pretty comparable to the remake is sad.
Rain should be 3D
And if it's raining you shouldn't actually be able to see many individual raindrops
much less be able to track them across the screen
Even the original game has better rain.Lol at the rain effects in RE4.
This is what ND was doing last gen.
\
And Rocksteady in 2015.
This looks more like Days Gone's snow lol
2023 was supposed to save us from cross gen mediocrity but man Forspoken, Dead Space and now RE4?? we are in for another rough year.
01011001
Banned
Lol at the rain effects in RE4.
This is what ND was doing last gen.
\
And Rocksteady in 2015.
This looks more like Days Gone's snow lol
2023 was supposed to save us from cross gen mediocrity but man Forspoken, Dead Space and now RE4?? we are in for another rough year.
it's all about the abilities of the artists now.
I said it many times, we literally hit a hard wall when it comes to rasterized graphics.
it's not getting better anymore, only more polished and with better performance.
this has nothing to do with cross gen or anything of that nature.
the rain in RE4 looks like that because the technical artists responsibility for implementing it weren't skilled enough to make it look appealing and fitting to the style of the game, it has zero to do with the target hardware.
same with Dead Space, that game also looks like it because of a mix of skill and budget, not due to what the target hardware is.
it was absolutely a misconception that cross gen was this much more prominent this gen because of "slow sales and low availability of hardware", nonsense... these consoles sold faster than their predecessors.
or that cross gen noticeably holds back graphics,
the real reason is that you can easily port all games to last gen without much work, often doable by just giving it to a small support studio.
there was no big jump in graphics technology this generation. the only differentiating tech available for developers is Raytracing... and RDNA2 sucks at raytracing, which means it will be used as an optional bonus in 90% of games that use it, meaning it can just be easily turned off and then ported to last gen.
the real difference this gen is the CPU and SSD, and that's not something you'll instantly notice in the game's visual fidelity.
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Lumpyoatmeal
Member
I'm a have to agree with that Chiefdada poster, knock it off man with the rambling and just imagine better rain effects when playing the game.Lol at the rain effects in RE4.
Y'all are being ridiculous; Stop with the bitching and preorder Resident Evil 4 Remake, in fact let me help with that - https://www.residentevil.com/re4/en-us/
Only $59.99, for the standard edition.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I didnt expect the rain to look that bad lol.
I wish I was like ChiefDada and thought every game looked next gen. Wouldve been a far easier existence.
These games are AAA games being sold for $70 in 2023. I dont really care if their artists arent talented enough. When we see bad graphics, we should ridicule them instead of making excuses for them. Fospoken looks like trash. VRS made Dead Space look like a vaseline covered mess. The RE2make team is doing the RE4 remake. They have the talent. Even if they didnt, the extra horsepower in the next gen consoles wouldve allowed them to brute force it.
The XSX is 9.3x more powerful than the X1. Thats before the IPC gains that put it at roughly 14x more powerful. The X1 GPU was only 5x more powerful than the 360. This is before all the mesh shader crap, RT support, VRS and machine learning functionality possible thanks to RDNA2.0 cards. If they cant brute force better rain with 9.3x more tflops than they should fucking retire and give up.
The same devs made this.
Way better than what we are getting 4 years after RE2. This is simply unacceptable.
Gorgyles
Banned
I agree with
SlimySnake
~$70 Games should be held to a high standard
If the artists aren't up to the task, then hire new artists
You need a real creative at the top, though.
Somebody to notice when things look wrong and demand they look right.
Mikami and Kojima would.
01011001
The power bump would seem more significant without the needless adherence to 4k60 which requires an enormous amount of computing power. 1080p should have been the target resolution this generation with a focus on graphical effects.
SlimySnake
~$70 Games should be held to a high standardIf the artists aren't up to the task, then hire new artists
You need a real creative at the top, though.
Somebody to notice when things look wrong and demand they look right.
Mikami and Kojima would.
01011001
The power bump would seem more significant without the needless adherence to 4k60 which requires an enormous amount of computing power. 1080p should have been the target resolution this generation with a focus on graphical effects.
Kikorin
Member
Well, is not always about realism. The RE4 aesthetic is heavily inspired by old horror movies, where the rain was usually faked with results looking pretty similar to the one showed in that gif. Clearly games like Last of Us or RE2 are looking for a more realistic aesthetic compared to RE4 IMHO.
Klosshufvud
Member
But there are countless examples of talent not being there. You can absolutely not "brute force" talent. What the fuck am I even reading? Movies today don't necessarily look visually better than older movies despite the tech being better. The talent aspect probably makes up a majority to how the final product is. You can brag and moan about your Teraflops all you'd like, but when the talented programmers have since long been scared off to more lucrative careers, I'd temper my expectations. Otherwise look forward to five years of you complaining ITT of how devs aren't utilizing 10 TERAFLOPS of power.
This whole discussion is empty without considering the people actually making these games and not just spec sheets.
01011001
Banned
games do not run at, or target 4k60
Forspoken literally runs at a dynamic 1080p60 and drops all the way down to 720p.
in RT mode it drops down to ~800p at 30fps
Dead Space is barely above 1080p in both graphics and performance mode. and the devs still rely on a dynamic resolution and at launch even had an aggressive VRS Tier 1 solution on PS5 to help with performance.
it's simply not true that games target 4k60 and therefore can't look better than last gen.
almost no game targets 4k, even at 30fps they often don't come close to 4k, if they do it's dynamic and usually below that.
Watch Dogs Legion is technically dynamic 4k in graphics mode I think, but in reality it's usually at 1440p and can drop below that (VG Tech found a low of 1180p on PS5 and 1330p on Series X in RT mode)
the games that target a full 4K are rare... Forza comes to mind, but even that now has a dynamic resolution scaler as a fallback, which was never the case previously.
Rasterized graphics are simply not getting much better. you can have denser foliage and better draw distances, but that's basically it. and adding more details to graphics that are already really detailed is absolutely giving diminishing returns at a certain point, and many last gen games already hit that point.
it would for example be nearly impossible to make The Last of Us 2 on current gen, and make it look significant better than the PS4 Pro version without relying heavily on Raytracing. even if it was completely remade from the ground up by the best artists and using the best tech, it would barely look better.
and since raytracing is something that's pretty slow on current systems, it's hard to use it to add a big upgrade, especially in the case of TLOU2, which is ridiculous static and can easily rely on extremely high quality prebaked lighting in most scenarios.
the only real difference on these new systems is that developers will be able to make more dynamic and open games look as good as static and linear games did on last gen.
and that's a less obvious jump in fidelity, as it's context dependent.
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Gorgyles
Banned
This is a great post. I had no idea that games weren't targeting 4K because I see it mentioned so often.
Thanks for the illumination.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
So you're saying that they devs who made RE2 and the programmers and artists incharge of that rain have now moved on to other careers? I would buy that if we knew that for sure. The industry is suffering from a brain drain, and its possible everyone just has to work with the trashiest dumbest artists and programmers nowadays. I just dont know why that should be my problem.
The product they are putting out still costs the same. If not more. And it looks worse. Despite having access to 13x more GPU power. And yes, brute forcing is a thing. WTF? Thats literally what you do when you dont have talented engineers trying to squeeze out performance to get good looking visual effects. You just aim for a higher end GPU and have the extra GPU horsepower do all the heavy lifting. They cant do that here because they idiotically tied themselves to last gen trashy hardware so now all versions have bad looking rain.
I will never understand why gamers defend shitty graphics. Especially in a thread about graphics fidelity. Fanboys run rampant on boards defending their favorite brands... I can understand that , but you seem to have a hard on for defending these ridiculous downgrades constantly jumping down my throat for simply pointing out that graphics have literally gotten worse. Didnt you have an aneurysm when i called these devs lazy incompetent hacks? Now you are literally saying that they dont have any talented devs left in this industry. So now you agree with me, but you still get all butthurt when I point out the obvious.
Klosshufvud
Member
It is known fact that the games industry has huge turnover numbers. Just look what happened to CDPR between Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk. They lost a massive talent pool due to shitty working conditions and incompetent management.
Like others have mentioned, last gen consoles aren't really the problem here. Budget, talent, time and ambition are primary bottlenecks. Not Teraflops.
Nobody here is "defending" shit. We're merely explaining to you that graphical prowess is way more complex than counting TFs and then acting perplexed as to why game X looks worse than game Y.
That's pure copium.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
That has always been the case. Studios like ND, GG, SSM, Rockstar, Capcom's RE team, DICE, Square Enix's FF teams, Rocksteady were all one step ahead of everyone else. They all managed to use their talent to extract more out of the hardware than everyone else.
Now, these same studios are phoning in PS5 only remakes like TLOU Part 1? Cross gen games like GOW Ragnorak, RE4 and BF1942. Next gen only games like Forspoken. These are all massive studios that are bigger than ever and their games cost more than ever. So clearly budget and manpower is not an issue. ND literally let themselves get outclassed by Bluepoint which is a far smaller studio and i can promise you their talent pales in comparison to Naughty Dog's. How were they able to make their remake look better than Naughty Dog's two years earlier?
If anything, UE5 has made it easier than ever to make video games. The entire matrix demo was made by a total of 80 people in just 8 months. We have seen several UE4 demos created by 1 person. Ray tracing is supposed to help reduce dev time by eliminating the need to pre-bake lighting and reflections. Nanite's main usage is helping automate LODs for ingame assets drastically reducing dev time for every single asset in the game. If devs werent so stubborn, we might have actually gotten some next gen games by now and on time.
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Lysandros
Member
Just give up. He is under an unbreakable spell. Lost cause.
“Hideo Kojima shares photos from Death Stranding 2 "experiment," promising "techniques not used in the previous game"
“Hideo Kojima has shared photos from an "experiment" currently taking place at his studio, which aims to make future games, like Death Stranding 2, look even more photorealistic.”
That’s the kinda stuff I like to hear from devs. This is music to my ears:
https://www.gamesradar.com/hideo-ko...ing-techniques-not-used-in-the-previous-game/
“Hideo Kojima has shared photos from an "experiment" currently taking place at his studio, which aims to make future games, like Death Stranding 2, look even more photorealistic.”
That’s the kinda stuff I like to hear from devs. This is music to my ears:
https://www.gamesradar.com/hideo-ko...ing-techniques-not-used-in-the-previous-game/
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
That honestly looks like real life.Agreed.
People poopoo'ing DriveClub are pixel peeping for jaggies or counting frames.
It's about way more than that.
Driveclub utterly nails this feel of reality in a lot of scenes and conditions.
It's a combination of FOV, scale, lighting, and effects.
Just a beautiful harmony that results in still-jaw-dropping scenes despite subpar image quality.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Wrong tbh…TLOU II was already downgraded from the E3 2018 demo…they downgraded alot of things, but it’s still comparable overall…the enemy characters lost tons of detail and facial detail, animation was toned down, contact shadows removed. I also notice slightly less geometry (True or not?). If TLOU II was built for PS5 only, I guarantee it would look better than the E3 2018 demo. It would probably include way better textures, some RT and way more geometric density and thats without a PS5 upgrades version of the Naughty Dog engine with virtualized geometry and a global lighting system etc.
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
The main issue holding back visual fidelity are engines…these games are built on old engines, simple as that…old rasterizers, old lighting. There simply isn’t enough geometry to render CGI like visuals, HFW comes close, TLOU IIs character models, Spiderman Miles Morales or Ratchet and Clank yes but even these visual marvels don’t push geometry like The Matrix Awakens…
Its the scale issues. Where alot of AK's models and textures are not to a realistic scales. They still have that oversized kid toy scale that was used during UE3 and was nessasary at the time. Think Chaos Theory and its realistic looking (for 2005) yet way oversized bricks on walls. CT didnt have the resolutuon to fit realistic size (small) bricks without the details being lost under the low resolutions of the textures.
Could you imagine if even those demo teases wherent even released? This gen sucks.
Why the Fuck are we paying $10 more for if it looks slightly better than before sometimes worse?
..and when are we gonna talk about the real elephant in the room which is for the 1st time in 6 generations we went from a 16x increase in ram to just a 2x increase this time?
Thats fucking an 8x reduction in exspected texture and visual effects memory and yet everyone from DF on down has just glossed over that. It was the biggest shock for me when hearing the new specs and has a huge amout to do with all the poor performance and shitty textures and density we still keep seeing.
..and when are we gonna talk about the real elephant in the room which is for the 1st time in 6 generations we went from a 16x increase in ram to just a 2x increase this time?
Thats fucking an 8x reduction in exspected texture and visual effects memory and yet everyone from DF on down has just glossed over that. It was the biggest shock for me when hearing the new specs and has a huge amout to do with all the poor performance and shitty textures and density we still keep seeing.
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vivftp
Member
Ive seen this before and it all sounds nice on paper but we really havent seen the results have we? The magic of the ssd=yawn.
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01011001
Banned
the most fucked up thing about this is, that the last gen version is most likely more work than the PS5 version.
the PS5 has way more hardware power, which will make optimisations for cross gen games way easier than optimising the game for last gen where the hardware is way more limiting.
vivftp
Member
That's the reality, whether you choose to believe it or not. The sheer speed of the SSD means that data can be loaded into ram in-demand instead of data having to sit there just in case the player does something.
The reason no one brings it up is because what Cerny explains is the truth.
01011001
Banned
the Matrix demo also shows the limitations tho.
this demo ran like pure garbage, and had to use an extremely low resolution to run reasonably well.
in motion in the open world it looks like straight garbage due to the ridiculously bad temporal stability of the image.
constant reconstruction artifacts,
raytracing effects fizzle like crazy due to the low ray count and the denoising having to do miracles to get a cohesive image onto the screen,
camera motion blur from hell to hide the stuttery framerate which means you literally can't see shit as soon as you turn the camera,
and last but not least even with Nanite you absolutely saw pop-in still because you can only have so many draw calls, and distant geometry still needs to be culled in order to not kill the CPU.
impressive tech, less than impressive visuals... I would never want an actually finished game to look like that.
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He explains the ideal situation which is how all corporations communicate to consumers anytime where introduced to new tech. Im not disagreeing with him. Im saying we aint getting nowhere near making up for a 8x defecit.