cicero
Member
So two women clothed exactly alike could fit both "Slut Walk" female empowerment and as sexist depictions of women depending entirely on the intent of the creator?
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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
So two women clothed exactly alike could fit both "Slut Walk" female empowerment and as sexist depictions of women depending entirely on the intent of the creator?
Devolution
Member
Why do you think someone would have a problem with the Sorceress to begin with if there wasn't a precedent already set? That's the root problem. You're not helping matters coming from the other side and acting like it's a non-issue and that women are just jealous.
Which is why sexualized characters have be deconstructed on multiple levels and within the context of their own game.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I felt more empowered playing Prefessor Layton than God of War :lol I've always viewed Kratos as an action movie star never really even considered me in his shoes.
Devo stop making me agree with pretty much everything you are typing recently.
Jathaine
Member
Well, I've already said why. I believe they are jealous. Its not a popular opinion but what can I say? It simply is what it is.
partyphone
Banned
Wait. Character designs in general or Dragon's Crown in particular?
what
Weltall Zero
Member
That's kind of a weird thing to say, at least from my point of view. Perhaps it's because I grew up surrounded by women, but I've always found women cooler by default. Coolest FF characters of all time? Rydia, Terra and Celes. Best action hero/ines of all time? Ripley and Sarah Connor, of course. My Shephard is female and she kicks all kinds of ass. Best classic VG hero/ine? Samus, who else? My first character in an MMO is always female. It's a real shame there's not more of them, particularly well-written ones, and specifically not more of them actually written by women.
Men are ugly, hairy, clumsy, ungraceful. I don't understand why anyone would find us cool, frankly.
Peoples' incessant focus on this one character in this particular game doesn't jive with that metaphor, though. If Dragon's Crown is a comedian's set, character designs were jokes, and ridiculously oversexualized females were dick and fart jokes, then a very small percentage of this comedian's set is dick and fart jokes.
It's rather incongruent to say you can enjoy a dick or fart joke every now and again out of one side of your mouth while ordering the execution of all dick and fart jokes from the other.
There's plenty of Japanese games out there you can rail against for featuring a vapid harem of exaggerated bimbos to the exclusion of all else, and this isn't really one of 'em. If you're gonna start a witch hunt, maybe try and find a real witch before you start dunking the villagers.
Knux-Future
Banned
stahp
Devolution
Member
Well I'm not jealous, I'm depressed that a hobby of mine seems to fail at giving my gender some depth and variety.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
If I don't like Kratos does that mean I'm jealous?
Jathaine
Member
If you come in here talking about the fact that you don't like Kratos because his design is nothing but muscle and that he's designed to be spank material for 14 year old girls and this is misandric... I'd be inclined to believe that, yes.
Not jealous of the character himself, mind you... but the body type. Yes.
Knux-Future
Banned
JordanN
Banned
Both.
A character is only sexist if its role in the game is intended to be one. Just being attractive is not enough to warrant this.
partyphone
Banned
You think intent is the only factor? The way we perceive things doesn't always line up with creative intent.
JordanN
Banned
I think an artist (in this day an age) has to be super oblivious if what they're creating is truly meant to support a gender or not.
As for perceiving, I see that as acceptable as long as it meets the definition of sexism or otherwise, what standard is there? Certainly not an objective one.
Knux-Future
Banned
context is the most important.
Your perception of things matter a lot less when it comes to things like sexism.
If I somehow could equate Mario to racism or something, would it be fine?
Sexism is a very strong word to just throw around at things. If you just said, I think his design looks dumb(or I don't like it) because I am tired of all of these sexuality characters...that is your right.
By calling it things like juvenile, sexist or sexually objectifying...you make that previous statement a lot more loaded. And once you use those words, Context becomes monumental.
This design looks dumb is subjective. That's all opinion and is up to you (I actually think the design is silly overall but I get it).
The Design is sexist. That's when you have explain why and the constent leaps of faith of it's harmfulness without context...means you aren't explaining why outside of "boobs be too big and sexy poses are no".
partyphone
Banned
Devolution
Member
The most ironic thing about Soul Calibur is they have one of my favorite armored characters because they wanted to draw a clothed sexy character.
More of this in general would be great:
More of this in general would be great:
Jathaine
Member
Or they're privileged and reinforcing the status quo.
Entirely different and it isn't even the design that one might consider sexist.
Remove the text and you've got something that isn't remotely sexist. Once you add the connotation that big breasts are the only acceptable ones... its a different story.
Dragon's Crown doesn't have anything remotely similar.
Chet Rippo
Member
Damn, this game looks sweet.
It's amazing!
JordanN
Banned
How does that rebuke what I said?
Again, unless you never heard of women's rights or what equality is, I'm fairly certain a message can be crafted.
Knux-Future
Banned
Pretty sure there was Voldo poster too...
but yeah games like Soul Calibur (it's funny you bring it up since SCV had a lot less fanservice since Taki was dead and Ivy was covered up in her IP costume), it makes less sense in context for Ivy to be dressed like that...you could argue it was iconic by this point but meh.
Here? There is that Context that I have been blabbing about all day it seems.
but yeah games like Soul Calibur (it's funny you bring it up since SCV had a lot less fanservice since Taki was dead and Ivy was covered up in her IP costume), it makes less sense in context for Ivy to be dressed like that...you could argue it was iconic by this point but meh.
Here? There is that Context that I have been blabbing about all day it seems.
Weltall Zero
Member
There are several huge problems with this posts, but I'm going to try to outline some of them.
Feminism strives for equality, because right now the balance shifts toward men. Men have it easier, are more catered for, hold WAY more power and are less discriminated against that women in almost every single current society in the world. It's much worse in most developing countries, but even first-world countries have it quite bad.
Think of it as a balancing scale, or a rope. If there is an unbalance, the way to correct it is pull from the other way. That's what feminism tries to do: equalize the balance by making things easier for women. This is why it's often perceived to be about female domination. It's not; it's about egalitarism, from the point of view that CURRENTLY, society is stacked against women. You can discuss whether this is the case or not (although, frankly, IMHO there's plenty of evidence to support it) but let's all understand that's the purpose and the origin of the name of feminism; to equalize things by promoting women rights, not to unbalance towards women.
Your point about "feminists should shut up and act" is ridiculous; exposing a problem IS acting, one of the key actions in fact. Seems to me you are in fact aware of this and what you are is afraid more people will realize these problems and side with them against "anti-feminists" like you; otherwise, why would you care?
As for the "jealousy thing", I don't even know where to start... You seem to have a bit of a stone-age conception of the female psyche, and from your post I feel that a sympathy exercise might be asking too much, but can you imagine living in a society where you're constantly bombarded with imagery with the subtle (or not so subtle) message that all that matters about you is your body? Then having it reinforced by any member of the opposite sex (and most of your own, unfortunately) you meet? Have a good look at advertising, movies, series or pretty much any kind of media and you might realize what I mean.
I wouldn't say it's not sexist without the text, as the focus is pretty obviously on objectivizing and sexualizing (as a side note, this is why I gave up on the Soul Calibur series entirely over a decade ago; I didn't like seeing reasonably good character designs getting increasingly ridiculous boob jobs).
But I do agree the text is probably the worst of it all. The combination, however, is absolutely terrible, and infinitely worse than Dragon Crown's designs.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
sexism  
sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.
I just grabbed that from dictionary.com
So sexism is discriminating against people based on their sex. So like saying someone can't do job A because they are male/female would be sexist.
I think sexism would require intent. Like if you have a character who's a maid or something because the author says that only women can be maids would be sexist because you're saying men can't do the same thing which is excluding based on sex.
If the character is a maid and just happens to be a male/female, as in there's no belief that only male/women can do the job then it's not discriminating against anyone on the basis of sex.
So if someone says that the sorceress is sexist in the game I can't really agree based on the above. I mean there's no discrimination going on considering she does the same thing that all the other selectable characters do, which is kill things in a beat em up setting.
sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.
I just grabbed that from dictionary.com
So sexism is discriminating against people based on their sex. So like saying someone can't do job A because they are male/female would be sexist.
I think sexism would require intent. Like if you have a character who's a maid or something because the author says that only women can be maids would be sexist because you're saying men can't do the same thing which is excluding based on sex.
If the character is a maid and just happens to be a male/female, as in there's no belief that only male/women can do the job then it's not discriminating against anyone on the basis of sex.
So if someone says that the sorceress is sexist in the game I can't really agree based on the above. I mean there's no discrimination going on considering she does the same thing that all the other selectable characters do, which is kill things in a beat em up setting.
Jathaine
Member
I'm not going to address this post in full because I don't think NeoGAF will ever be the place to have this discussion but let me just tell you that I don't believe in Patriarchy Theory or that women are any less advantaged in the western world today than I am as a black man (not even black women). If I bought into that propaganda I'd probably agree with you.
cicero
Member
I just asked a similar question.
So basically what we are supposed to assume as a standard is that all "sexualized characters have be <endlessly> deconstructed on multiple levels and within the context of their own game." Which basically means, no logically applied standard or "truth", only endless speculation about intent of the creators, the perceptions of the viewers, and the clearly unequal assumptions and rationale behind the perceptions of the viewers.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Reminds me, I think Jaffe said something along the lines of, you can't rewrite the dictionary to fit your agenda. Which is pretty true.
partyphone
Banned
Yes.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
And why not? Do you judge people at first glance and start shouting about them from only that knowledge of them?
But white privilege exists too.
That tends to be how analysis works, yes. What matters is how it's done.
Analyzing characters in context of the whole work? Good! Doing this shows that there's no issue with Dragon's Crown because every character is like a funhouse mirror view of fantasy tropes.
Analyzing characters in a vacuum where you look at one character and nothing but that character? Bad, stupid, doesn't create any worthwhile discussion.
Devolution
Member
Why would you bring up race? That's just another subset of issues in gaming and popular media. It seems you're totally bereft of examining these things outside of your own narrow perspective. You're the one propagating bullshit such as women just being jealous of these characters, these fictional fucking beings that have no relevance outside of video games. Plenty of us aren't jealous we just want some accurate and complex representations instead of flat characters with their titties out.
Can I just say how: "Game Developers Really Need To Stop Letting Teenage Boys Design Their Characters" is a really douchey title?
It's fine if such ridiculously proportioned characters don't appeal to you, but what the hell is up with this inane meme where only teenage boys like big breasted women? Seriously.
It's fine if such ridiculously proportioned characters don't appeal to you, but what the hell is up with this inane meme where only teenage boys like big breasted women? Seriously.
I think one argument for the sorceress being a sexist design is just which part of her is exaggerated.
All the characters are in some way. But like, look at the fighter. He is exaggerated on his shoulders. The dwarf is just muscle mass. But the sorceress had an "erogenous zone" singled out. Why was not a similar area of one of the male designs exaggerated?
There could be an argument it's focusing on private parts of the female body. Something that men do not have to deal with very often. The genders are being held to different standards and appraised by different criteria directly related to which gender they are.
I'm not ready to argue whether that's harmful or not though. While I don't really have anything against the sorceress or Dragon's Crown or Kamitani or Jason, I can see where accusations of it being a sexist design come from.
Edit: I don't have direct experience with this but in a lot of TV shows or movies I see men being portrayed as uncomfortable around other men who have particularly outstanding private parts. If this is true then try to imagine that almost every male character has one part or another exaggerated and being shoved in your face - sometimes literally.
Weltall Zero
Member
Um, I would actually say that black men and women are discriminated against in the western world. Are you saying they aren't at all, or that both are similarly disadvantaged? Your phrasing wasn't clear.
Kamitani exaggerated the definining characteristics of fantasy tropes (think Conan, D&D, etc). For males, those were muscles; for women, they were their sexual characteristics. The issue here is the source material, I think; if anything, this exaggeration might make it more obvious, the way parodies often do (but I'm not so naive as to say that was Kamitani's purpose, of course).
Giolon
Member
I see what you did there. (or did you? XD)
TBH, I don't think most of the male characters out there are particularly great either. Is there more variety? Sure, but you've still got a handful of stereotypes and tropes that dominate the western market. Basically got bald space marine A, bald space marine B, Kratos and Nathan Drake.
I'm as tired of hearing Gordon Freeman being brought up as an example of male character diversity as Susan Arendt of Escapist is sick of Alyx Vance being brought up as an example of female character diversity.
I also find it most ironic that this discussion has been all around Dragon's Crown which comes from the Japanese gaming market - a market that DOES cater to female tastes and does create a far wider variety of female (and male) characters than the West.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I think almost everyone want's this. I mean shit you can have non flat characters that are sexed up as well which I think most people are thinking you can only have one or the other and that line of thinking is dumb as fuck. Though I'm not saying every character needs to be sexed up. I'm agreeing with you on this subject as a whole
lol I brought that up last night.
Sylvrfonic
Member
Had a good conversation with my girlfriend about the art for this game. She definitely falls into the feminist category and she really dislikes the design of the Sorceress' breasts and it was hard to admit to her that I like the overall aesthetic of the game including the Sorceress' breast.
Something else we could not agree upon was the separation of over genderization (exaggerating the features that assign gender to a character in this case) and over sexualization (reducing a character to nothing more than an object used for sex). I think that they are not the same thing. You can have a female character that's designed like the Sorceress and not reduce her to a sexual object. As a matter of fact if you look at just her design and decide that she is nothing more than a sexual object you are guilty of allowing your prejudice to dictate your perception of the characters value.
By saying the character is over sexualized by looking at her instead of saying she is over genderized you have assigned the character a (sexual) role based on prejudice instead of learning her role in the context of the game.
Something else we could not agree upon was the separation of over genderization (exaggerating the features that assign gender to a character in this case) and over sexualization (reducing a character to nothing more than an object used for sex). I think that they are not the same thing. You can have a female character that's designed like the Sorceress and not reduce her to a sexual object. As a matter of fact if you look at just her design and decide that she is nothing more than a sexual object you are guilty of allowing your prejudice to dictate your perception of the characters value.
By saying the character is over sexualized by looking at her instead of saying she is over genderized you have assigned the character a (sexual) role based on prejudice instead of learning her role in the context of the game.
Devolution
Member
You've still got way more personalities than we do. And plenty of supplementary characters with various designs and motivations. In a lot of media women are all the same figure, personality and relegated to mother, sister, girlfriend, and the token team mate/coworker.
Jathaine
Member
I honestly don't believe it exists in any meaningful form for anyone except white women (who I personally view to be the most privileged group in the western world).
White women statistically benefit more from affirmative action than any other group and are generally considered the beauty standard of the world. (Let me also point out that I wish AA would be done away with because it is unfair as well, standards should not be lowered just to fill quotas)
They function as sexual selectors.
Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on support for women with regard to spousal abuse/domestic violence when the different in rates of domestic violence is such that you could say that things are about 50/50.
Even schools are tailor made to cater to girls/women with extra programs/funding/incentives that aren't available to men.
Even the court system favors women with women getting lighter sentencing for the same crimes on average (even when they are charged together with a man) and let me not even mention divorce statistics.
I could go on and on all day... the fact is, I don't believe that women are disadvantaged today AT ALL. I believe that they (and we as black people as well, mind you) need to just get out there and make the changes we want to see made rather than arm-chairing it up. That's why I attend rallies and donate to charities. I put my money where my mouth is.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Though what you are saying is relevant in a sense of the whole discussion *not that I agree with it at all really* it is off topic with the current subject a pretty great deal. x.x/
cicero
Member
Which is why deconstructionism as a standard is so useless. It doesn't actually believe in or seek "truth", just a mirage of truth as the endless deconstruction of anything and everything to fit already preconceived assumptions or agendas.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
I don't know if you saw it, but there was a picture-link discussed in the thread somewhere explaining the exaggeration of the Sorceress' breasts and her link to necromancy magic, which the artist has used before in past works.
As for the Amazon's ass/legs, I'm not sure why it was focused as such.
Possibly, but is the focus automatically negative? It's catering, certainly, but does it exclude women?
Possibly as a role model for which to identify with, given the scale of her breasts, while males can more readily associate with a bulging muscly dwarf whose groin is not equally expanded upon, but that line seems a bit murky without context, as has been stated earlier.
I can see the unease that comes up when a LOT of women characters do share the 'boob armor' design choice, but I don't know if singling out a particular title really brings the right aspect of that discussion to the table.
I like this.
JordanN
Banned
I still don't see this as sexist.
Better yet, at what point do breasts become sexist? Is there a criteria that says the bigger a woman's chest, the more sexist she is? Is Sorceress 75% more sexist than Elf?
That sounds ridiculous to me.
That is how artistic analysis works.
Delusibeta
Banned
I'll say this much: Jathaine has dug a mighty hole for himself.
I suppose the argument is that male secondary sex characteristics (body hair, muscle mass, wide shoulders etc) isn't as sexualised as female secondary sex characteristics (breasts, hourglass figure etc). For example, men walking around topless will probably get by with far fewer comments or complaints than topless women.
I suppose the argument is that male secondary sex characteristics (body hair, muscle mass, wide shoulders etc) isn't as sexualised as female secondary sex characteristics (breasts, hourglass figure etc). For example, men walking around topless will probably get by with far fewer comments or complaints than topless women.
Devolution
Member
Well it can get pretty obnoxious how many representations of the female form in video games are about accentuated breasts, hips and ass.
The best comparison I can make is imagine male characters were consistently shirtless, ripped and in a thong.
Jathaine
Member
Because I don't hold the same viewpoint as you? Well, I can't say I expected any different. It is why I said I don't think NeoGAF will ever be the place to have this discussion.