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George Kamitani responds to Kotaku

D

Devolution

Member
shinra-bansho said:
So I read through most of the thread.

Why exactly is it so hard for game "journalists," to admit to a mistake or fault? Instead, we get self-aggrandizing claims of fighting for the greater good and for the betterment of us all.

Sure, the gaming industry seems to have many issues with women. I don't see why those issues are being conflated with the overtly exaggerated artwork of the characters in this game.

There doesn't, to me, appear to be anything inherently "sexist" or "misogynist" about either the art of the Sorceress when viewed in the wider context of the art of the game as a whole. Nor is there anything inherently more sexist about Dragon's Crown than a cavalcade of potential examples that one could draw from. (Although, I'm not going to speak for women who could potentially find it offensive.)

If anything the game doesn't really conform to the typical gamer sensibilities with regard to sex appeal - although I won't pretend to speak for straight men here either. I just don't see anything specifically about Dragon's Crown that should be denigrated and eliminated from the industry.

All of this nonsense could have seemingly been avoided by a simple:
"I retract the story and the insults towards Kamitani. When viewed in a broader context, Kamitani's art and Dragon's Crown isn't the best example to use to illustrate problems in the industry. But there are issues, and they are worth exploring, and I intend to do so in future articles."

Yes, there seem to be abundant issues in the game industry with regard to women and minorities of all nature; so why not write something of value that examines some of those issues in depth?
Click to expand...

Sensationalism gets more hits than thoughtful deconstructions of issues facing minorities in games.
 
R

Risette

A Good Citizen
shinra-bansho said:
So I read through most of the thread.

Why exactly is it so hard for game "journalists," to admit to a mistake or fault? Instead, we get self-aggrandizing claims of fighting for the greater good and for the betterment of us all.

Sure, the gaming industry seems to have many issues with women. I don't see why those issues are being conflated with the overtly exaggerated artwork of the characters in this game.

There doesn't, to me, appear to be anything inherently "sexist" or "misogynist" about either the art of the Sorceress when viewed in the wider context of the art of the game as a whole. Nor is there anything inherently more sexist about Dragon's Crown than a cavalcade of potential examples that one could draw from. (Although, I'm not going to speak for women who could potentially find it offensive.)

If anything the game doesn't really conform to the typical gamer sensibilities with regard to sex appeal - although I won't pretend to speak for straight men here either. I just don't see anything specifically about Dragon's Crown that should be denigrated and eliminated from the industry.

All of this nonsense could have seemingly been avoided by a simple:
"I retract the story and the insults towards Kamitani. When viewed in a broader context, Kamitani's art and Dragon's Crown isn't the best example to use to illustrate problems in the industry. But there are issues, and they are worth exploring, and I intend to do so in future articles."

Yes, there seem to be abundant issues in the game industry with regard to women and minorities of all nature; so why not write something of value that examines some of those issues in depth?
Click to expand...
Hit and run (and maybe hit again) pieces are Kotaku's specialty. Also see: what they did to Kamiya, Jaffe.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
QisTopTier said:
I'm tired and heading to bed soon, but http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Homura_Akemi from Madoka is a decent example.

Some ArcSys characters off the top of my head are

Jam, I-no, Milla Rage from Guilty Gear

Rachel Alucard, Kokonoe(though she's not playable she's a scientist that has a pretty solid impact on the story and calls the shots for one/two of the characters), and Noel in the newest Blazblue game

I'll PM you or post more examples of stuff tomorrow if you'd like.

It's a really big claim, but outside of maybe the novel space I'm pretty sure it holds some solid ground.
Click to expand...
I was hoping you would drop some obscure manga characters or something. I don't play fighting games, so I know nothing of those characters. Homura isn't a bad choice, from what I remember of Madoka Magica.
Though her use of prep time doesn't compare to Batman.
 
E

EvilKatarn

Member
7Th said:
aivoqv.gif

2cute
Click to expand...

Oh my god. I feel like I'll have to buy this game or pester some friend into buying it so I could play it at their place. A bad time to not have a PS3.
Elf gameplay also looked slick.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
Femmeworth said:
I'm going to need some examples.
Click to expand...
Gintama. The entire cast. :) I think the only time I disagreed was during the Kyubei arc. Don't actually consume much anime and Japanese things beyond that show, but there must be some comparable stuff.

I know that my SO initially got into anime because it was the only place she'd find females in lead action/sci fi/fantasy roles (Slayers, Sailor Moon, Claymore, Miyazaki stuff). With that diversity in mind (seriously Japan has a lot of female leads in their media and in videogames, now that I think about it), she was even able to enjoy Cutie Honey. I got into anime (and Japanese games) two years ago because that, I think. The diversity. Found more good than bad, but granted, I'm not looking everywhere.

In the west, we make a big deal about something like the Last of Us having a girl on the cover.
 
spandexmonkey

spandexmonkey

Banned
Just want to point out, when concerning the sexualization of men, the thread on the men deported from Saudi for being to hot has been an interesting one. I'd like to see more western devs explore this with their designs, I wouldn't mind playing beautifully/handsomely designed male characters rather than another generic, buzzcut protagonist.
Along the same lines, I kind of wish in Dragon's Crown that the dwarf had been given the full armor and the fighter been the exposed male.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
spandexmonkey said:
Just want to point out, when concerning the sexualization of men, the thread on the men deported from Saudi for being to hot has been an interesting one. I'd like to see more western devs explore this with their designs, I wouldn't mind playing beautifully/handsomely designed male characters rather than another generic, buzzcut protagonist.
Click to expand...

Like Drake?

1zlusr.png


He seems to have a pretty big female following.
 
J

JakOfTheShadows

Member
spandexmonkey said:
Just want to point out, when concerning the sexualization of men, the thread on the men deported from Saudi for being to hot has been an interesting one. I'd like to see more western devs explore this with their designs, I wouldn't mind playing beautifully/handsomely designed male characters rather than another generic, buzzcut protagonist.
Along the same lines, I kind of wish in Dragon's Crown that the dwarf had been given the full armor and the fighter been the exposed male.
Click to expand...
Maybe with the power of the next generation systems we can finally handle male eyeliner.
 
R

Ratrat

Member
spandexmonkey said:
Just want to point out, when concerning the sexualization of men, the thread on the men deported from Saudi for being to hot has been an interesting one. I'd like to see more western devs explore this with their designs, I wouldn't mind playing beautifully/handsomely designed male characters rather than another generic, buzzcut protagonist.
Along the same lines, I kind of wish in Dragon's Crown that the dwarf had been given the full armor and the fighter been the exposed male.
Click to expand...
Only one I can think of is Deus Ex...or the original Infamous 2 design.
Drake is generic as the rest imo.
 
Y

Yopis

Member
Pristine_Condition said:
Go back to your twitter fans stroking your ego if you think that was a nasty post.

If my post was "nasty" then what is calling an artist a 14-year-old boy, accusing him of homophobia, and saying he produces "harmful work of art?"

Methinks you simply like to dish out the criticism, and can't bear a little aimed at you in return.




Gee. Where would we have gotten that idea? Oh yeah. The title of your original piece and pretty much all your subsequent writing on this subject, including your attempted character assassination of the artist whose work you think is so harmful. Or perhaps the content of the article, when you suggested the artist should not be hired by the studio.



Good for you. But we're talking about stuff that you wrote.

I understand that you want to deflect our attention away from that now, but I'm not going to take the bait.



The shocking amount of actual ignorance on display with this statement is simply mind-boggling. It's embarrassing, really.

You're talking about a medium in photography that was a rich old boys club for at least the first fifty years of it's conception. The medium wouldn't even be available to the middle class for decades. And for example, in photojournalism, a female, Margaret Bourke-White, wouldn't break into the field until after around 30 years of male domination.

You're talking about a medium that was also the most popular form of pornography for about 150 years, with all the free speech, sexual, homosexual and race politics that goes along with that.

Exclusion? You're talking about a medium where photographers have been threatened with death for their art, and many have indeed been killed.

You're talking about a medium which has produced artists like Mapplethorpe and Serrano for goodness sake.

And the industry still has problems with stereotypes. Men are usually thought of as more generally technically proficient photographers, while women are thought to be more sensitive to capturing emotion. It's bullshit on both ends, but it exists.

But the solution to sexism and exclusion isn't the exclusion of artistic expression.
Click to expand...


Awesome and informative post.
 
P

Persona86

Banned
QisTopTier said:
Sadly I think cool female characters are stuck in anime/manga/games/books for now. I wonder if the film industry will ever be more open about it... They are the slowest progressing out of anything though :/

It's a little funny how Japan normally get's blasted for sexist stuff all the time in their work when they probably have the most empowered females in their media. I'll never get it.

Edit: I'm not referring to the stuff that goes on in the real world there though with this statement. That's a whole other subject
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough every time I watch a Japanese TV show I see the comments online full of fangirls obsessed about a certain actor, in fact most of the comments seem to be from girls.

Actually the same thing sometimes happens with anime too lol.

But Korean TV shows take the cake in that department.
 
Jathaine

Jathaine

Member
Controversial opinion ahead:

This might be an oversimplification of things but I think the perceptions of sexualization of men and women in video games are perceived differently due to one key factor. Sadly, I believe that factor might simply be jealousy.
Its far more commonplace for a woman to get jealous of another woman's body or have some sort of body-image issues. So of course women and people who claim to be more sensitive to women's issues will take offense to anything that may be 'harmful' to their self-image despite the fact that we tend to have sexy male characters too. This, of course, is explained away as 'male-power fantasy' (as laughable as that is.)

Its not like men don't have these issues either but to a much lesser degree, I honestly feel this has to do with the female hug-box that is feminism. I'll say it plainly; I am anti-feminist. I am not anti-fairness, simply anti-feminism because I don't believe that feminism promotes fairness between the sexes despite what the dictionary definition says.

I really hate that feminism seemingly encourages people to sit back and complain about problems rather than going out and fixing them. If every single person who had a major problem with the way female characters are designed and portrayed got together to fund and/or create games that promote positive female leads/characters/depictions rather than just armcharing it, we'd see something happen. If the market decides this is what is wanted, the sales will happen and that'll open even more doors.

Unfortunately, for the "business" of third wave feminism to stay aloat, it must convince us that women are in fact oppressed and simply do not have the agency to go out there and create. I don't buy into that. There's another thread on the subject and clearly some people do, but I actually have a bit more respect for women than to think that they can't get by in the industry as it stands now. People just have to try and we don't need things like feminism coddling them.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Jathaine said:
Controversial opinion ahead:

This might be an oversimplification of things but I think the perceptions of sexualization of men and women in video games are perceived differently due to one key factor. Sadly, I believe that factor might simply be jealousy.
Its far more commonplace for a woman to get jealous of another woman's body or have some sort of body-image issues. So of course women and people who claim to be more sensitive to women's issues will take offense to anything that may be 'harmful' to their self-image despite the fact that we tend to have sexy male characters too. This, of course, is explained away as 'male-power fantasy' (as laughable as that is.)

Its not like men don't have these issues either but to a much lesser degree, I honestly feel this has to do with the female hug-box that is feminism. I'll say it plainly; I am anti-feminist. I am not anti-fairness, simply anti-feminism because I don't believe that feminism promotes fairness between the sexes despite what the dictionary definition says.

I really hate that feminism seemingly encourages people to sit back and complain about problems rather than going out and fixing them. If every single person who had a major problem with the way female characters are designed and portrayed got together to fund and/or create games that promote positive female leads/characters/depictions rather than just armcharing it, we'd see something happen. If the market decides this is what is wanted, the sales will happen and that'll open even more doors.

Unfortunately, for the "business" of third wave feminism to stay aloat, it must convince us that women are in fact oppressed and simply do not have the agency to go out there and create. I don't buy into that. There's another thread on the subject and clearly some people do, but I actually have a bit more respect for women than to think that they can't get by in the industry as it stands now. People just have to try and we don't need things like feminism coddling them.
Click to expand...
TBDgCk7.gif
 
P

partyphone

Banned
That's not a controversial opinion. A controversial opinion would be something like: chicken is a better breakfast meat than bacon.

That thing is a messy pile of vomit.
 
Z

ZenTzen

Member
the man should be the one receiving an apologie instead of some guy making an article out of his response to him to get more hits

And how long has the art for this game been out for and its only now we have some random dude making a deal of it
 
Jathaine

Jathaine

Member
partyphone said:
That's not a controversial opinion. A controversial opinion would be something like: chicken is a better breakfast meat than bacon.

That thing is a messy pile of vomit.
Click to expand...

Well, at least you attacked my stance rather than me as a person. That's one step above completely worthless.
I would appreciate it if you could go further with your next response so we can have an actual discussion.

I've said my piece, you understand where I'm coming from. I understand that you disagree but I don't understand what you agree with or what your stance is. Neither of us can learn from each other this way. I definitely encourage you to make your voice heard.
 
N

Nairume

Banned
We keep getting people saying they asked the mythical creature known as ~~~~A GIRL~~~~~ about the art of Dragon's Crown, and it is vindicated because some said it is okay.

I decided to get recorded audio of such an encounter and have asked my fiance to take a look at the art of the Sorceress and the Amazon. While she is a fairly avid gamer, she has never seen anything about Dragon's Crown and the art of George Kamitani in general.

Here are the results
 
A

abadguy

Banned
Femmeworth said:
I'm going to need some examples.
Click to expand...

Balsa from Moribito comes to mind.
Haru from Xam'd Lost memory.( one of the best characters in that show)
Birdy from Birdy :The Mighty
Princess Kushana from Nausicaa.( Manga version, the movie doesn't expand on her character nearly as much)
Lady Iboshi from Princess Mononoke
Balalaika from Black Lagoon
Integra from Hellsing
The Major GTIS
Off the top of my head.
 
P

partyphone

Banned
Jathaine said:
Well, at least you attacked my stance rather than me as a person. That's one step above completely worthless.
I would appreciate it if you could go further with your next response so we can have an actual discussion.

I've said my piece, you understand where I'm coming from. I understand that you disagree but I don't understand what you agree with or what your stance is. Neither of us can learn from each other this way. I definitely encourage you to make your voice heard.
Click to expand...

There's nothing to discuss. Everything you posted is made up and not true.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
SatelliteOfLove said:
Japanese "Cool female characters" is a very mixed bag. For every Rei (<---avatar), there's one that, well...yeah.



Apparently!
Click to expand...

let's make a list of the arguments from that post:

women complain about tits in games because they are jealous
male designs are not male power fantasies
feminism is evil
you shouldn't ever point out that things are stupid, just go make your own little niche thing and shut up if you can't
capitalism says that female designs have to be sexist, deal with it
women aren't a disadvantaged minority in game development

do you really need an explanation as to why each of those is completely ridiculous?
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
aeolist said:
let's make a list of the arguments from that post:

women complain about tits in games because they are jealous
male designs are not male power fantasies
feminism is evil
you shouldn't ever point out that things are stupid, just go make your own little niche thing and shut up if you can't
capitalism says that female designs have to be sexist, deal with it
women aren't a disadvantaged minority in game development

do you really need an explanation as to why each of those is completely ridiculous?
Click to expand...

Am I defending him?

What did I post?

Are you angry?
 
B

Blueblur1

Member
I read the previous thread's OP (with the link to Kamitani's image) and this thread's OP and I side with Kamitani on this one. Maybe the character proportions are embellished but its just art (and a goddamn video game). I feel that Kotaku is wasting their time with this. If they don't like it they shouldn't cover the game. Criticizing Kamitani and causing trouble for him, and the development team over a character's visual appearance is ridiculous. It's not as if they're going to solve some horrible horrible women's issue by criticizing a character in a video game that less than 5% of the world's population is ever going to know or care about.
 
N

Nairume

Banned
Blueblur1 said:
I read the previous thread's OP (with the link to Kamitani's image) and this thread's OP and I side with Kamitani on this one. Maybe the character proportions are embellished but its just art (and a goddamn video game). I feel that Kotaku is wasting their time with this. If they don't like it they shouldn't cover the game. Criticizing Kamitani and causing trouble for him, and the development team over a character's visual appearance is ridiculous. It's not as if they're going to solve some horrible horrible women's issue but criticizing a drawing in a video game that less than 5% of the world's population is every going to know or care about.
Click to expand...

So journalism should only happen if the journalist approves of what is being done?
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Nairume said:
So journalism should only happen if the journalist approves of what is being done?
Click to expand...

woodward and bernstein shouldn't have wasted their time covering watergate, it's not like they got rid of government corruption forever and they were just being negative anyway
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
abadguy said:
Balsa from Moribito comes to mind.
Haru from Xam'd Lost memory.( one of the best characters in that show)
Birdy from Birdy :The Mighty
Princess Kushana from Nausicaa.( Manga version, the movie doesn't expand on her character nearly as much)
Lady Iboshi from Princess Mononoke
Balalaika from Black Lagoon
Integra from Hellsing
The Major GTIS
Off the top of my head.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the show but this scene is so good.
 
Jathaine

Jathaine

Member
aeolist said:
let's make a list of the arguments from that post:

women complain about tits in games because they are jealous
male designs are not male power fantasies
feminism is evil
you shouldn't ever point out that things are stupid, just go make your own little niche thing and shut up if you can't
capitalism says that female designs have to be sexist, deal with it
women aren't a disadvantaged minority in game development

do you really need an explanation as to why each of those is completely ridiculous?
Click to expand...

I do.


Also, at least try not to lie when you sum up my posts.

I never said anyone shouldn't point out things are stupid. But if you're doing that and not doing anything to change it, you're just full of hot air.
Also, I never said capitalism says that female designs have to be sexist, that's a far leap. I didn't say I think the idea would fail, I think people would certainly buy games with strong female leads so long as they are made well.
And yes, women are indeed a minority in game development... but disadvantaged? Heck no.
 
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