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[ShockingAlberto]

I stopped reading when he began defining moe.

Moe shit is terrible, and is probably helping to bring down the anime industry, but to argue it claims a majority or even significant amount of Japanese gaming is goddamn nuts.

 

[Canova]

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

 

[InfiniteNine]

Badass Spaceships > Little girls

I dunno I thought a little girl on a broomstick with a owl sidekick fighting something called Tyrannosatan was awesome. Also doesn't change the fact that the games are still good so it didn't ruin anything.

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

Can't really explain it well and most people's perception of the idea is filled with falsehoods.

 

[Technosteve]

Eastern Europe will save us desu!

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Most games have a long way to go, true. But Western developers have made tremendous progress this generation.

Just look at how dialog is handled in games like Mass Effect, LA Noire, or Deus Ex. I mean, last gen we were lucky to even have voice acting. Nowdays you get sophisticated camera pans, facial motion capturing, and dialog options that really require you to think about how you want to respond in a dynamic interactive way.

And we have storyarcs like the one in Red Dead Redemption with that amazing denouement and Bioshock's great narrative twist or The Witcher 2's branching narrative paths.

You are greatly reducing the level of sophistication we have advanced to in just one generation to reduce to "interactive dialogue/sleep with people."

I understand that people may like Japanese aesthetics or whatever, but really, can you name a single Japanese game this generation that you think has a story that doesn't reduce itself to parody by the end? I mean, true we have dumb shit like Gears of War and Call of Duty, but we also have the types of games I just mentioned.

If want to see something like that maybe you would have to go to handhelds game where it won't get 1/10th of the budget of those games or gfx.
Japan devs just can't compete with west when it comes to money .
Take witcher 2 it almost kill the devs , LA Noire cost so much then they went out of business.
You can't ask Japanese dev make sort of game when it might kill the studio .
FFXIII -2 might have some stuff like that but they story most likely going to crap since has part 1 to fallow .

 

[cosmicblizzard]

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

Cute girls and junk like that.

 

[Emitan]

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

 

[george_us]

My main issue with Japanese game development and the anime industry in general is that it feels like both industries lack the creative fire it used to have. Instead they rely on the same tired ass tropes and cliches to appeal to a narrow set of gamers instead of creating whatever the fuck they wanted. What the fuck happened to the industry that gave us Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Sonic, Mario, Panzer Dragoon and countless other groundbreaking titles that made the industry what it is today? Where has the creative spirit of Japan gone to?

 

[kokujin]

I can't name one non-indie western title that exudes more charm and innovation than something like Catherine or Little King's Story.

Witcher 2?

 

[Dresden]

You are greatly reducing the level of sophistication we have advanced to in just one generation to reduce to "interactive dialogue/sleep with people."

that damn bio-ware, ruining my games.

 

[NewFresh]

Cute girls and junk like that.

You know better

Spoiler

But it's not worth trying to explain

 

[Riposte]

Right on.

Little girl from a kids cartoon.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Fixed.

Star Ocean 4 is a perfect example of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paoC5Mzml8I

^ So moe!

 

[EternalGamer]

Lost Odyssey? 428? Nier? E17? There are plenty of Japanese games that have stories that are at the least comparable to the games you are claiming to be of high calibur.

If you think those games are comparable then I really don't think we agree one what qualifies as a a good story.

And for the record, I have completed Lost Odyssey and Nier. I would consider neither anywhere close to the aforementioned games in terms of sophistication. Though I will agree that they are closer than most JRPGs. LO and Nier managed to create dialog that at least didn't make me literally wince every 5 minutes but that doesn't make them good.

 

[IoCaster]

That is such bullshit. The fact is Japan used to produce most games, and the Western studios produced mostly crap. The Western studios grew, evolved, became better, while Japan didn't change.

Japan never made games "for the entire world", it was just the rest of the world that wasn't even trying to take its place in that market.

Eventually the market became more interesting to invest in as technology evolved and opened up the doors for increased revenue.

Japan lost its share, and Japan lost its market share because they didn't figure out why they had it to begin with.

This load of crap might be true if you are a console only gamer, but other than that it's a bunch of specious bullshit.

 

[Emitan]

Little girl from a kids cartoon.

But it's not an anime

Spoiler

it just has animation heavily inspired by FLCL

 

[Branduil]

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

Moe is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Canova]

So the author conveniently forgot to mention games like Demon's Souls or Dark Souls, which literally put all WRPGs to shame

 

[Finaika]

I prefer looking at over-stylized little girls over boring ol spaceships!

Wouldn't you want a shmup with you controling the Gosroth?

 

[Beth Cyra]

Well I don't know, I haven't seen any rapent turn in Japanese games that have been ruined by Moe or Loli.

As it stands most games across all platforms doesn't use it, and the few that do have for awhile so I don't expect them to change.

The only thing that has been ruined for me is the increasing desire to shove a little girl into the lead role when she really doesn't belong.

The X Men anime could have been so good, in fact it's the first time I have ever liked Cyclops but it keeps being brought down becaues of fucking Armor and her stupid shit. Not to mention it was the first time I really believed in Wolverine's Berserker Rage as far as animated/movie attempts go only to have the shit ruined when the little girl had to do her thing.

Same thing happened with a few other shows so I can see it with anime, but I just don't see this being an issue outside of Niche and certain franchises that have experimented with this for a long time now like Tales so it's a non issue as far as games go.

When DmC 2 comes out and it stars a Moe blob like X Men Anime or Macross 7 then I will start to worry.

 

[NotebookJ2]

Well it's true that you can have bad games and good games for older audiences. Trying to address an older audience doesn't automatically mean that you do it well if that is what you are getting at. But you can't succeed at all if you don't even try.

I suppose what it comes down to is that I'm going to be more than likely extremely critical on a game that advertises itself for an "older audience" than I am for a game that doesn't, mostly due to the fact that I don't trust what the industry thinks an older audience would want [or a younger audience for that matter...]

As much as this oversimplifies things, I'd rather have a developer just create what they think is a fun game, regardless of how its skews to an older or younger audience or certain demographic. *shrug*

 

[EternalGamer]

I stopped reading when he began defining moe.

Moe shit is terrible, and is probably helping to bring down the anime industry, but to argue it claims a majority or even significant amount of Japanese gaming is goddamn nuts.

Which just shows you didn't read what he said. He specifically says that it does not get a lot of attention in mainstream Japanese gaming. Instead he argues that most smaller developers focus on it as a niche community so that you don't have as much of an innovative indie scene in Japane you just have a lot of small studios catering to that specific interest.

 

[Zeal]

what does 'moe' mean? can someone explain?

apparently it's japan's new code word for underage girls.

 

[Instro]

If you think those games are comparable then I really don't think we agree one what qualifies as a a good story.

And for the record, I have completed Lost Odyssey and Nier. I would consider neither anywhere close to the aforementioned games in terms of sophistication. Though I will agree that they are closer than most JRPGs. LO and Nier managed to create dialog that at least didn't make me literally wince every 5 minutes but that doesn't make them good.

So wait are you actually looking for Japanese games with a good story, or just those with a good localization and dialouge? I can rattle off a number of games that are just as well told and often times more interesting than anything that has come out of the west this generation.

 

[Lindsay]

This is absolutely false. Radiant Historia is one of the best RPGs I've played in years. It is in no way "portablized". What does that word even mean? Simplified?

I don't know that game but it sounds like an rpg. Does it have towns you can run around in or just icons & menus overlayed on a "town" image? If yes to towns being menu based then its been portablized! I can cite a couple non-portablized handheld games like Okamiden though that felt much less epic than Okami. Its strange and annoying that many DS games feel way more fleshed out and less portablized then PSP ones despite their differences in power and storage space.

 

[Zaptruder]

That article makes me sad for japanese culture.

And this thread makes me sad for humanity.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You know better

Spoiler

But it's not worth trying to explain

I do, but the people in here are already cemented in their beliefs that trying to sway them any other way is pointless.

 

[Gaspode_T]

Can the people complaining about moe please give examples of series that were "ruined" due to moe-ification? Almost every Japanese game I can think of with a token moe character are generally otaku centric franchises to begin with (Disgaea, Ar Tonelico, Tales, etc).

I can give an example of a whole genre, shmup shooting games...

The moe-fication of shooting games has probably limited the appeal to Western gamers, whereas in SNES/Genesis/TG16 games we had games like Darius, Thunder Force, R-Type, Raiden, etc. The success of games like Einhander and Omega Boost proves they can sell well if they are made appealing to mainstream audiences, but games like that are few and far between these days and since the whole genre has nearly been forgotten by the average gamer when they do come out they are thought of as either too hard or simply not noticed.

P.S.: Make sure to check out Strania on XBLA if any of those names make your spine tingle.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Which just shows you didn't read what he said. He specifically says that it does not get a lot of attention in mainstream Japanese gaming. Instead he argues that most smaller developers focus on it as a niche community so that you don't have as much of an innovative indie scene in Japane you just have a lot of small studios catering to that specific interest.

But there shouldn't be anything wrong with smaller studios appealing to a Niche, Atlus does it all the time and people love them for it.

 

[Boombloxer]

Half the games you listed like MOTHER FUCKING Suikoden didn't sell that well in Japan and not so great here, they went away because they are in it to make money.

Also, there are a ton of gamers that would take SE games both western and Japanese over a ton of shit that EA or any other western dev has put out.

And Blizzard has put out 1 game this generation. Listing that as Everything is crazy.

The only game that supports your argument is Deus Ex.

For the other titles, there is not a single title that stands up to the best of the Western titles.
Hell, FF13 would have issues in it's own category.

On-topic, the article is pretty accurate.

 

[Gaspode_T]

For those still not convinced of how popular 'moe' culture is in Japan, check out this guy's website: http://www.dannychoo.com/

 

[Kalnos]

So the author conveniently forgot to mention games like Demon's Souls or Dark Souls, which literally put all WRPGs to shame

Do tell.

 

[icecream]

If you think those games are comparable then I really don't think we agree one what qualifies as a a good story.

No, the only thing that we might not agree on is taste in story. But that is besides the point. You claimed that all Japanese games this gen had stories that were poor mockery of the art of storytelling. I brought up examples that prove you wrong. Whether or not those games are comparable to stories about human space marines becoming the deus ex against supreme alien beings or crime dramas are a separate discussion with their own separate set of arguments.

 

[Emitan]

I don't know that game but it sounds like an rpg. Does it have towns you can run around in or just icons & menus overlayed on a "town" image? If yes to towns being menu based then its been portablized! I can cite a couple non-portablized handheld games like Okamiden though that felt much less epic than Okami. Its strange and annoying that many DS games feel way more fleshed out and less portablized then PSP ones despite their differences in power and storage space.

Is has real towns. The world map is icons based, but you actually explore the locations you go to.

 

[Red Blaster]

Most games have a long way to go, true. But Western developers have made tremendous progress this generation.

Just look at how dialog is handled in games like Mass Effect, LA Noire, or Deus Ex. I mean, last gen we were lucky to even have voice acting. Nowdays you get sophisticated camera pans, facial motion capturing, and dialog options that really require you to think about how you want to respond in a dynamic interactive way.

And we have storyarcs like the one in Red Dead Redemption with that amazing denouement and Bioshock's great narrative twist or The Witcher 2's branching narrative paths.

You are greatly reducing the level of sophistication we have advanced to in just one generation to reduce to "interactive dialogue/sleep with people."

I understand that people may like Japanese aesthetics or whatever, but really, can you name a single Japanese game this generation that you think has a story that doesn't reduce itself to parody by the end? I mean, true we have dumb shit like Gears of War and Call of Duty, but we also have the types of games I just mentioned.

ahuahuahuahua

And you joke about Japanese games ending in parody when Mass Effect 2 literally ends with you fighting a giant terminator made of human goo.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

ITT avatars match comments

 

[EternalGamer]

But there shouldn't be anything wrong with smaller studios appealing to a Niche, Atlus does it all the time and people love them for it.

He didn't say there was anything "wrong" with it. He was using it to show that there is less interest in catering to outside markets in Japan. The indie scene in the west has a lot of innovation. The indie scene in Japan caters primarily to this one sub-group.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

If you think those games are comparable then I really don't think we agree one what qualifies as a a good story.

And for the record, I have completed Lost Odyssey and Nier. I would consider neither anywhere close to the aforementioned games in terms of sophistication. Though I will agree that they are closer than most JRPGs. LO and Nier managed to create dialog that at least didn't make me literally wince every 5 minutes but that doesn't make them good.

LO has a great backstory and it is incredibly well written. It also came out 3 goddamn years ago

 

[Beth Cyra]

The only game that supports your argument is Deus Ex.

For the other titles, there is not a single title that stands up to the best of the Western titles.
Hell, FF13 would have issues in it's own category.

On-topic, the article is pretty accurate.

To you and to others, but there are a signficant portion who would disagree. They have had some seriously amazing content this generation and alot of people point it out everyday so I'm not going to do it again.

 

[kokujin]

Tell me this, where did all Japanese developers from the 80's and 90's go?I'm talking about the people that gave me games like Alien Soldier, Contra Hard Corps and Thunderforce IV.Did they just leave?I feel zero presence like that in the western industry.The closest I've felt to those games recently would be Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta and Vanquish.

 

[Finaika]

ITT avatars match comments

Shocking.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Cute girls and junk like that.

You know better than that .
Moe has lost it meaning from what is suppose to be .
Who knows what half this stuff means any more with how things change .

 

[Emitan]

ITT avatars match comments

Are people counting mine as anime? Because it's not.

 

[Canova]

Do tell.

What WRPGs better than those 2? Skyrim? NO. with that janky first person archaic melee combat?

 

[SuperAngelo64]

I really feel everything will go back to normal once the moe fad dies.

It's a combination of Japan's gratuitous use of moe and the west's current fad of wanking over any and every accomplishment made by western developers.

EDIT: My avatar is from an anime. Toss me in with the weeaboos.

 

[Beth Cyra]

The only game that supports your argument is Deus Ex.

For the other titles, there is not a single title that stands up to the best of the Western titles.
Hell, FF13 would have issues in it's own category.

On-topic, the article is pretty accurate.

To you and to others, but there are a signficant portion who would disagree. They have had some seriously amazing content this generation and alot of people point it out everyday so I'm not going to do it again.

He didn't say there was anything "wrong" with it. He was using it to show that there is less interest in catering to outside markets in Japan. The indie scene in the west has a lot of innovation. The indie scene in Japan caters primarily to this one sub-group.

Not arguing against the article, but all the people saying Japan is dead because of this when I don't belive it has taken huge traction in mainline gaming titles.

As it stands it's only really been a problem to games that wouldn't come here anyway.

 

[Dresden]

ITT avatars match comments

But my avatar isn't anime.

 

[Instro]

I don't know that game but it sounds like an rpg. Does it have towns you can run around in or just icons & menus overlayed on a "town" image? If yes to towns being menu based then its been portablized! I can cite a couple non-portablized handheld games like Okamiden though that felt much less epic than Okami. Its strange and annoying that many DS games feel way more fleshed out and less portablized then PSP ones despite their differences in power and storage space.

Radiant Historia has completely explorable towns, etc. It is a full featured rpg.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

:/

Its not like he's wrong. I like alot of things about the Japanese culture but fuck this loli shit.

 

[Satchel]

There are some diamonds amongst the Japanese gaming rough, like Vanquish.