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360 Price: The Industry Reacts

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
JMPovoa said:
Yet, the number of distributed devkits is scarce and very expensive to produce, from what has been known. What games will make launch in 6 / 9 months from now?

Judging by what we've seen sofar of PS3 games, and PS3 development, I'm not concerned that they could have a decent launch in Spring in at least one territory. I think it'd easily outdo the PS2 launch - if they could launch the PS2 the way they did, I think they'll easily be able to launch PS3 next Spring. They've less hardware right now than X360, but more mature and more "accurate" hardware than MS had with their abundance of alpha hardware (g5 + x800..not very close to x360). Sony effectively had "beta" kits (as far as individual components go at least) when MS still was on alphas. Though it'd obviously be better, not every individual on a team needs a PS3 dev kit on their desk. It might not be comfortable, but you could get by. Development from a graphics POV is quite similar to PC, and I imagine you can "share" limited dev kits for Cell specific work till more kits come along. Not that I'd suggest devs use them, but I mean a Mac with a SM3.0 Nvidia in it would actually be closer to PS3 hardware than MS's alpha kits are to X360, from a hardware perspective.

If you think PS3 will be rushed from a dev point of view, consider X360 development thusfar. Lots of hardware, but up until recently it's been different CPU and GPU (PS3 has always had Cell and SM3.0-level hardware). Games were having framerate trouble at E3 and some still are, and the transition from alpha to beta has not been seamless. There's just a couple of months left, less probably for most developers if lead time for manufacturing is longer..I think "rushing" would be an apt descriptor for what a lot of X360 devs working on launch titles are doing right now. If you think they can turn it around with just several weeks on beta/final hardware (and I think they will), don't you think PS3 devs would be at least as comfortable having many more months with what effectively is beta hardware, even if there's less of it, and a few months of abundant beta/final hardware (reference PS3 Tool is just in November/December IIRC)?
 

JMPovoa

Member
gofreak said:
Judging by what we've seen sofar of PS3 games, and PS3 development, I'm not concerned that they could have a decent launch in Spring in at least one territory. I think it'd easily outdo the PS2 launch - if they could launch the PS2 the way they did, I think they'll easily be able to launch PS3 next Spring. They've less hardware right now than X360, but more mature and more "accurate" hardware than MS had with their abundance of alpha hardware (g5 + x800..not very close to x360). Sony effectively had "beta" kits (as far as individual components go at least) when MS still was on alphas. Though it'd obviously be better, not every individual on a team needs a PS3 dev kit on their desk. It might not be comfortable, but you could get by. Development from a graphics POV is quite similar to PC, and I imagine you can "share" limited dev kits for Cell specific work till more kits come along. Not that I'd suggest devs use them, but I mean a Mac with a SM3.0 Nvidia in it would actually be closer to PS3 hardware than MS's alpha kits are to X360, from a hardware perspective.

If you think PS3 will be rushed from a dev point of view, consider X360 development thusfar. Lots of hardware, but up until recently it's been different CPU and GPU (PS3 has always had Cell and SM3.0-level hardware). Games were having framerate trouble at E3 and some still are, and the transition from alpha to beta has not been seamless. There's just a couple of months left, less probably for most developers if lead time for manufacturing is longer..I think "rushing" would be an apt descriptor for what a lot of X360 devs working on launch titles are doing right now. If you think they can turn it around with just several weeks on beta/final hardware (and I think they will), don't you think PS3 devs would be at least as comfortable having many more months with what effectively is beta hardware, even if there's less of it, and a few months of abundant beta/final hardware (reference PS3 Tool is just in November/December IIRC)?

I know where you're coming from. I agree with what you say. But what i'm talking about isn't just development time, but hardware production costs. This could hurt Sony somewhat. And cost can be reflected in retail price to make up for that.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the final games to pass judgment on how rushed each one's product is. Basing our thoughts on E3 videos is still hard to get any concrete idea on that.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
JMPovoa said:
I know where you're coming from. I agree with what you say. But what i'm talking about isn't just development time, but hardware production costs. This could hurt Sony somewhat. And cost can be reflected in retail price to make up for that.

The cost of the dev kits? As long as the volume is there at the right time (ASAP, presumably), the cost won't matter so much. Though we don't know how much PS3 kits cost relatively speaking (I'd guess they're more expensive for now), Dev kits are way down the list of things that impact the final price of a game or system. The biggest contribution to costs are things like labour and marketing. The dev kits are also something that can be written off over multiple titles. I doubt publishers even blink when making that investment - I'm sure it's fair to say that right now the availability of the kits matters far more to publishers than their cost.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Johnny Nighttrain said:
people doing all this damage control need to realize that the only reason people are pissed off, is because up until the skus were announced, Microsoft claimed non stop that all the stuff in the turbo pack would be standard.

im sure that if they only made one version at $400, everyone would just be bummed out about the price, and not angry about games being developed for a shittier version of the system.

everyones beef is that MS went back on their word about what was going to be standard in the system.

Yeah but know ones praising the fact that MS stuffed another 256mb or ram in it are they.
As soon as the extra ram went it the HDD was on a shakey nail to reach the 299 price point.
MS made the right kind of compromise in my book and i'm sure the devs would agree.

If your buying (or not) a games console just because it's got a hard drive in it then your buying a games machines for the wrong reasons.

At the end of the day, it's all about the games and you know the core unit will deliver.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
cyberheater said:
Yeah but know ones praising the fact that MS stuffed another 256mb or ram in it are they.
As soon as the extra ram went it the HDD was on a shakey nail to reach the 299 price point.
MS made the right kind of compromise in my book and i'm sure the devs would agree.

If your buying (or not) a games console just because it's got a hard drive in it then your buying a games machines for the wrong reasons.

At the end of the day, it's all about the games and you know the core unit will deliver.

Actually IIRC when the specs were released folks in here did praise MS for going to 512MB, and devs have already made comments indicating they certainly appreciate it.
 

Drek

Member
Heliocentric said:
I don't beleive anybody who says they will skip this because of the pricing structure. You were not going to buy it to begin with if that's the case. :lol

This could lead to some confusion, perhaps later complications, and under utilization of the HD, though.
You're looking at it from a hardcore gamer viewpoint though. 99% of this board's constituancy would like to buy the X360's premium edition at launch, if they could spare the $400 (and most will buy it if they can and aren't anti-MS). Casuals don't see it that way though. For casuals you aren't competing between game systems, you compete between every other thing they could spend $300 to $400 on, and thats a lot of different shit.

What GoFreak is saying is that relative to what MS had with the Xbox, i.e. the most powerful system plus an 8 GB hdd for $300, the X360 (which definately won't have such a hardware edge this generation) for $300 or with a HD for $400 is simply not as attractive a value purchase. An Xbox for $300 was basically stealing a mid level computer with a beast of a graphics card at the time from MS. The X360 is a lot more financially viable for MS but it doesn't have that most bang for your buck appeal that got casuals to buy the Xbox.
 
>>What GoFreak is saying is that relative to what MS had with the Xbox, i.e. the most powerful system plus an 8 GB hdd for $300, the X360 (which definately won't have such a hardware edge this generation) for $300 or with a HD for $400 is simply not as attractive a value purchase. An Xbox for $300 was basically stealing a mid level computer with a beast of a graphics card at the time from MS. The X360 is a lot more financially viable for MS but it doesn't have that most bang for your buck appeal that got casuals to buy the Xbox.<<

I agree with what you're saying, except that I seriously doubt the casuals will miss the HD. Bottom line is, casuals buy game systems through word of mouth, seeing the system in action at a store, or playing one at a friend's house; they're not like us, where we disect every minute detail. I think casual gamers who bought the Xbox bought it cause they proabably played or heard about HALO and the like, and said, "I gotta get this." And when the Xbox 360 comes out, if the hype is there and the games look great, they'll go the store and buy whichever suits them. Most people are used to memory cards at this point, so my guess is that the casual gamer won't even think to buy a HDD with the core, but will instead opt with a memory card and not think twice. I think it's a great business move by MS. They're gonna get a lot of 360s into a lot of homes this way.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
JMPovoa said:
Not the cost of dev kits. The actual final retail hardware.

Gotcha, sorry, I thought we were talking about launch software and the feasibility of the Spring launch.
 

Agent X

Gold Member
JMPovoa said:
That was related to having a redesign of the console and that was never what i meant in my original statement. Anyone who read it knows what i meant.

We know what you meant, but the result is the same whether it's a physical redesign or just a bundling issue. The sudden "free" inclusion of a $100 peripheral mere months after launch would certainly anger some portion of the launch buyers. It's a slap in the face to them, and a knee-jerk reaction ("ooh, Sony and Nintendo are doing this, we'd better do it do") to the rest of the world. This is why most systems (or at least the ones that have gone on to become hugely successful) don't toy around with their initial package in such a radical manner for at least a year.

JMPovoa said:
I wouldn't know about the 6 to 9 months comment though. That would seem more of a rush product than Microsoft's (and people still comment on Microsoft's product rush to market).

It doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch. We've heard for months now that Sony is targeting spring 2006 for the PS3 launch--that's only about half a year after Microsoft.

JMPovoa said:
It would also mean that unless the console is really expensive (we're talking $500 to $600 expensive) it can't just be that more powerful than Xbox360 (that or Sony really is taking a huge hit per unit), except for the Blu-Ray Drive (the HD movie playback can be a huge plus here).

We really don't know all the details. But, it's odd that some people don't think that there's any possible way the PS3 could be competitive with the X-Box 360 on either a price or feature level, that something just has to give. Why wouldn't it be possible for Sony to release a console with similar or more features for a price that's comparable to Microsoft's?

JMPovoa said:
By not having Wifi from the get go has nothing to do with support for it being there or not. Why else would they sell it?

It's being relegated to a mere "it's there" status. It's like they're offering it just so they can rattle it off as a "potential feature" on bullet-point lists. Think of something like the GameCube modem/ethernet adapters and you'll get the idea. It's a stark contrast from their May 2005 song and dance, where they were extremely gung-ho about how "everything is wireless."

JMPovoa said:
And playing music wirelessly is something that is already supported if you get one of those adapters. That's what's been shown, seen and stated before.

Yes, I'm aware the X-Box 360 is capable of playing music wirelessly from a PC on your network. That's certainly a good thing, and I wouldn't knock that.

But, what about using Wi-Fi to effectively "broadcast" a playlist of music from the console to another Wi-Fi enabled device? Doesn't that sound very appealing to you? I think it does!

X-Box 360 enthusiasts keep raising the example of plugging a PSP into the X-Box 360's USB port to play music. This seems more like an example of something that can be done "just because it can," than a feature that you would really make use of. Right now, many people could connect their PSPs to their PCs to listen to music, but how many people do it that often? Chances are good that people already have their music stored on their PC's hard drive anyway. Since the PSP is a Wi-Fi enabled device, and it's mobile, I'd think it's much more useful (and impressive) to stream from the console to the PSP. The music doesn't even have to be on the console itself--it could be on the network, and the console is just pulling it off the network and then wirelessly streaming it to the PSP. Do you think X-Box 360 will be able to do that? I have my doubts, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 could do it.

JMPovoa said:
I know that what i mean is more on the price barrier, but it is the whole thing with the choice you have to make. Do you realize how many people actually care for that sort of thing? That is why the peripheral is sold separately, because Microsoft doesn't want to throw money and value away and neither does the consumer.

This goes against the whole "everything is wireless" message that Microsoft was formerly shouting with unbridled enthusiasm. I know that there are functions with limited appeal that are better served as optional peripherals rather than thrown into every box, and that's fine. But, when you're tossing around buzzwords like "wireless" at the drop of a hat, then you'd better be prepared to stand behind it. It doesn't look like wireless is a big part of the X-Box 360 strategy anymore, what with even the wireless controllers being sacked in the "core system" package. If Microsoft hadn't made such a big deal about this beforehand, then it would be much easier to look the other way now.

When a company introduces a new system to the market, they tend to define its future with the included feature set. You can view this as "throwing money and value away," but in the grand scheme of things companies sometimes have to take risks in order to drive the future of the industry and win customers over. They may include a function that is new and unproven because they believe that--by virtue of their console's success--it will eventually become a "must-have" feature. Perhaps that will be four months later, or perhaps four years later--but they believe it will happen.

Maybe you feel Microsoft is better served by "playing it safe," but if that's all it's going to amount to, then why are they even bothering to offer a new console to begin with? What substantial features do you think X-Box 360 will bring to the dance that PlayStation 3 and Revolution will not?
 

FightyF

Banned
I have a feeling that Halo 3 will be unvieled just before the PS3 launch. The release date will probably be late 2006, but they will show screens movies and all that jazz.
 

Dr_Cogent

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
I have a feeling that Halo 3 will be unvieled just before the PS3 launch. The release date will probably be late 2006, but they will show screens movies and all that jazz.

Seriously. Do gamers give a shit about Halo that much? After a while - it gets boring for me.
 

Kangu

Banned
Dr_Cogent said:
Seriously. Do gamers give a shit about Halo that much? After a while - it gets boring for me.

You'd think it had a fuck awesome story with all the hype it gets or some kind of outrageous innovation between titles but in all honesty HALO 1 + Online=HALO 2. After what Bungie did with Halo 2 I have little faith in their ability to deliver something fresh in Halo 3.
 

Flatbread

Member
gofreak said:
You must have missed the bit where we discussed an objective evaluation of value. Fair enough if you find the rest useless, I for one certainly don't :) And I don't think the rest will be ignored by (wise) customers.

value to who? Its not like i can take these extras out of the system and sell it on ebay. Im stuck with paying more money for things i dont care about. So it doesnt seem "wise" to me to spend 100 or more dollars on things i dont need like wireless controllers, hdtv cables for hdtv i wont have for years, hdd that wont get used and the games will still play great without it, blue ray discs that i wont need for at least 3 years, probably more. In cases like this where i cant take the extra parts and sell them, value is dependent on personal needs.

Not everyone is in the same boat, and you generalize when you say "wise" customers will choose the premium package. I use my console just to play single player games and watch dvds. Why should i spend 400 bucks for the premium deal, or a ps3 when my favorite games are on the xbox. Am i really "unwise"?
 
Eurogamer said:
The main package announced for £279.99 was a gift; the cheaper package of the console and a pad for a staggering £209.99 is sure to attract plenty of interest too.
Eurogamer is a UK site, and the UK has traditionally been shafted by fantasy exchange rates for console hardware ($1 = £1). So for them, this is an amazing deal.

Oh, and more memory >>>>> standard HD. I applaud MS for this decision, and pity the devs that didn't work out disc streaming during the current gen. K'PLAGH!
 

JMPovoa

Member
Agent X said:
We know what you meant, but the result is the same whether it's a physical redesign or just a bundling issue. The sudden "free" inclusion of a $100 peripheral mere months after launch would certainly anger some portion of the launch buyers. It's a slap in the face to them, and a knee-jerk reaction ("ooh, Sony and Nintendo are doing this, we'd better do it do") to the rest of the world. This is why most systems (or at least the ones that have gone on to become hugely successful) don't toy around with their initial package in such a radical manner for at least a year.

What if it would anger the early adopters? They already adopted it, so even if they would give a rats ass were it bundled later, they couldn't do anything about it. Early adopters know what to expect from being just that. Is it so hard to believe that we'll see an Xbox360 price drop come PS3's launch (that would be cheating early adopters as much as bundling something more for the same price wouldn't you say?) I wouldn't call this exactly toying around, but you're entitled to your own opinion, i'm not going that far.

Agent X said:
It doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch. We've heard for months now that Sony is targeting spring 2006 for the PS3 launch--that's only about half a year after Microsoft.

Yet we have seen but a few tech demos of it and two or three realtime playable games. I just don't know what more to say on that. Let it come...

Agent X said:
We really don't know all the details. But, it's odd that some people don't think that there's any possible way the PS3 could be competitive with the X-Box 360 on either a price or feature level, that something just has to give. Why wouldn't it be possible for Sony to release a console with similar or more features for a price that's comparable to Microsoft's?

Only thing spinning in my mind is Blu-Ray Drive. Other than that, i don't see why it shouldn't be as competitive. What I was saying back there is that were it really that more powerful than the Xbox360 it's almost a certainty to reflect this on its retail price, and that's why i think that it's basically on par, bar the Blu-Ray.

Agent X said:
It's being relegated to a mere "it's there" status. It's like they're offering it just so they can rattle it off as a "potential feature" on bullet-point lists. Think of something like the GameCube modem/ethernet adapters and you'll get the idea. It's a stark contrast from their May 2005 song and dance, where they were extremely gung-ho about how "everything is wireless."

Have you seen the demos of it being used? It's anything but a "it's there" product. I can't believe you just wrote that. (internet play, recorded TV shows streaming, Video, music, all in the comfort of your living room and with no need at all of HDD)

Agent X said:
But, what about using Wi-Fi to effectively "broadcast" a playlist of music from the console to another Wi-Fi enabled device? Doesn't that sound very appealing to you? I think it does!

X-Box 360 enthusiasts keep raising the example of plugging a PSP into the X-Box 360's USB port to play music. This seems more like an example of something that can be done "just because it can," than a feature that you would really make use of. Right now, many people could connect their PSPs to their PCs to listen to music, but how many people do it that often? Chances are good that people already have their music stored on their PC's hard drive anyway. Since the PSP is a Wi-Fi enabled device, and it's mobile, I'd think it's much more useful (and impressive) to stream from the console to the PSP. The music doesn't even have to be on the console itself--it could be on the network, and the console is just pulling it off the network and then wirelessly streaming it to the PSP. Do you think X-Box 360 will be able to do that? I have my doubts, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 could do it.

Broadcasting playlists from console (through network) to the PSP seems a bit far fetched right now. I've been attributed ridiculous claims for less than that. :D

And you think the PS3 could do it because both are Sony's products? It's not exactly up to the PS3, it's up to the PSP. That would require a firmware upgrade on the PSP's part, since in no way does it support that sort of stuff right now. I am with you when you don't believe that Xbox360 will support that, but i don't think it's very likely to see that on the PS3 too.

Agent X said:
This goes against the whole "everything is wireless" message that Microsoft was formerly shouting with unbridled enthusiasm. I know that there are functions with limited appeal that are better served as optional peripherals rather than thrown into every box, and that's fine. But, when you're tossing around buzzwords like "wireless" at the drop of a hat, then you'd better be prepared to stand behind it. It doesn't look like wireless is a big part of the X-Box 360 strategy anymore, what with even the wireless controllers being sacked in the "core system" package. If Microsoft hadn't made such a big deal about this beforehand, then it would be much easier to look the other way now.

When a company introduces a new system to the market, they tend to define its future with the included feature set. You can view this as "throwing money and value away," but in the grand scheme of things companies sometimes have to take risks in order to drive the future of the industry and win customers over. They may include a function that is new and unproven because they believe that--by virtue of their console's success--it will eventually become a "must-have" feature. Perhaps that will be four months later, or perhaps four years later--but they believe it will happen.

Maybe you feel Microsoft is better served by "playing it safe," but if that's all it's going to amount to, then why are they even bothering to offer a new console to begin with? What substantial features do you think X-Box 360 will bring to the dance that PlayStation 3 and Revolution will not?

It all comes down to the games and you know it as much as i do. :)
 

element

Member
Dr_Cogent said:
Seriously. Do gamers give a shit about Halo that much? After a while - it gets boring for me.
As does GTA and GT4, but that doesn't mean people don't want sequels to them.
 

HokieJoe

Member
---- said:
The "fucking problem" as they say in the Matrix, is "choice."

The problem is that the choice that "johnny sports jock" makes represents the choice of the majority. "Johnny sports jock" or "J6P" is the mainstream consumer and what he decides is better in the end is what developers end up supporting. The fact that MS has given Johnny the choice to determine which system he thinks is better is the problem of everyone who is a fan of the HDD. As you so aptly pointed out Johnny does not see the purpose of the HDD and as a result chooses the "retard pack" because of it's attractive $299 price. By the end of the generation the Johns out number you 10:1 or 20:1 and the HDD becomes a virtually useless artifact of the Xbox 360 launch. You see the Johnny sports jocks aren't going to buy those epic RPGs and innovative sci-fi shooters that make use of the HDD, they're going to buy the EA Sports games, the WWE games, and the movie licensed garbage which is eaten up by the majority of gamers. So you the hardcore gamer who loves the possibilities that the HDD open up are now going to get screwed because some corporate weasel thought it would be a good idea to give us "choice." The choice is really now whether the HDD lives or dies and the choice is firmly in Johnny Sports Jocks hands.


I see a couple problems with your calculus. Firstly, how big of a relative loss or profit are they taking on each sku? If they're taking a bigger loss on the ghettohillbillysku, then why would they push it? Because they love J6P? I don't think so. Of course, the relative economies of scale will ultimately determine which sku they push over the long haul.
I've read that it's costing MS $375 to produce each 360. I don't know if that includes the HDD or not. Can anyone confirm or deny this as bravo sierra or true blue?

Secondly, a 64MB memory card presents problems. Yeah, yeah, you can load X number of executables on a card that size no problem. But that doesn't include map packs whose size isn't as small I would gather. On top of that, add game saves, and microtransactions. Remember, MS wants a Live Marketplace. That takes space, and not offering any semblance of continuity across games (IOW, changing out memory cards) will be problematic IMO.

Of course, MS may choose to open up memory card choices, with more attractive prices, when the PS3 launches. This would help some, but it doesn't mitigate the fact that memory cards IMO, ultimately, suck.
 

HokieJoe

Member
sonycowboy said:
So, let's see if I get some of these (damage control / justification) posts right:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sonycowboy said:
a) The PS3 will be $500 (even though nobody uses the nasty $400 for the $399 360)

The PS3 will be $449-$499. :)


sonycowboy said:
b) The hard drive wasn't that important anyway.

Not me dude- I likey the HDD!


sonycowboy said:
c) Only idiots will buy the Core system

I won't be so brash as to say idiots. Let's just call them short-sighted. ;)


sonycowboy said:
d) Microsoft is brilliant for allowing more casuals to jump on board, stripping features they won't use anyway (flip side of c above)

I think the split sku is only useful in the short term- but that's a potentially risky strategy IMO.



sonycowboy said:
d) $399 is a bargain (even though Xbox fans told us it would be $299 with the wireless controller and HDD and the PS3 was going to die @ $400)

I don't know if $399 is a bargain, but I've been prepared to pay upwards of $400 from the start. I think that for what you're getting in terms of performance from the 360 and the PS3 justifies a higher price.


sonycowboy said:
e) It's gonna be an 80/20 split, so developers will support the HDD just as if it was 100% (how long will the 80/20 split last, and the only source i recall that stated 80/20 was the analyst that people blasted for telling us there'd by 2 skus and a $99 external HDD in the first place)

To me, this the 64K question. Ultimately, it depends upon how much money they want to make. They have to weigh profit/losses vs. market penetration just like everyone else I presume.


sonycowboy said:
f) Casuals don't care about backwards compatability

I don't agree with this. Sure, that holds true with the beer-belly'd Madden crowd; but how many casuals won't care about BC when they plop Halo2 into their ghettobilly box and it doesn't work? ;)



sonycowboy said:
g) It's all about choice

:::rolls eyes:::: If MS doesn't shut that choice shit up I'll, I'll cry.



sonycowboy said:
I'm sure I'm missing quite a few.

I will say that while it's fun to give the Xbox fans who were so belligerant regarding PS3 pricing, the HDD issues, the split sku stuff / etc, in the end, I think Microsoft will find equilibrium here and that they've got some smart folks doing this stuff and I think they've thought this through way more than any of us have. There are realities regarding profitability, management of the console in the later years where they'd probably have to pull the HDD anyway, likely usage of features by consumers, and so forth.

There are two big minuses I do see for Microsoft here:

a) The HDD not being standard. This would have been a nice feature for developers to depend on being available and would have allowed for games to be designed a certain way that would give the 360 an advantage over the PS3.

b) The pricing is going to mean that the installed base will be a decent amount lower than it would have been if they had been able to do it for $349 and especially $299. I think Microsoft is really in a pretty desperate race to get AS MANY UNITS sold as absolutely possible before the PS3 hits. I'm surprised they gave in on this as it's, IMO, the single most important thing they can do before the PS3 hits.



I tend to agree on all those points. In terms of the market, I think it would've served MS better to have one sku @ $349-$360 and including a HD and wireless controller. Obviously, they think that they can ship more units via the two sku method.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Flatbread said:
gofreak said:
You must have missed the bit where we discussed an objective evaluation of value. Fair enough if you find the rest useless, I for one certainly don't :) And I don't think the rest will be ignored by (wise) customers.

value to who? Its not like i can take these extras out of the system and sell it on ebay. Im stuck with paying more money for things i dont care about. So it doesnt seem "wise" to me to spend 100 or more dollars on things i dont need like wireless controllers, hdtv cables for hdtv i wont have for years, hdd that wont get used and the games will still play great without it, blue ray discs that i wont need for at least 3 years, probably more. In cases like this where i cant take the extra parts and sell them, value is dependent on personal needs.

Not everyone is in the same boat, and you generalize when you say "wise" customers will choose the premium package. I use my console just to play single player games and watch dvds. Why should i spend 400 bucks for the premium deal, or a ps3 when my favorite games are on the xbox. Am i really "unwise"?

I think unless Sony goes crazy with the price, it'll be difficult to argue that you're not getting more for your money with PS3. Now, whether you find the "more" useful or not is another question, and of course, completely up to you. Personally I think it'll be worth the premium, as long as it ain't sky high - I certainly can and will make use of those "useless" features. I do think that even for those who find little use for the features PS3 has over X360, if the premium (if any) isn't too much, there may be a certain amount of "why not" attached to that.

If you simply can't afford anything more than a certain amount, then obviously you'll be looking for the cheapest point of entry (which isn't going to offer you the best value by a long shot, but it gets you in - job done). But if you can afford something like $400 or $500 it becomes less about money and more about value.
 

Flatbread

Member
gofreak said:
Flatbread said:
I think unless Sony goes crazy with the price, it'll be difficult to argue that you're not getting more for your money with PS3. Now, whether you find the "more" useful or not is another question, and of course, completely up to you. Personally I think it'll be worth the premium, as long as it ain't sky high - I certainly can and will make use of those "useless" features. I do think that even for those who find little use for the features PS3 has over X360, if the premium (if any) isn't too much, there may be a certain amount of "why not" attached to that.

If you simply can't afford anything more than a certain amount, then obviously you'll be looking for the cheapest point of entry (which isn't going to offer you the best value by a long shot, but it gets you in - job done). But if you can afford something like $400 or $500 it becomes less about money and more about value.

Two different perspectives, for you I would agree that the ps3 or xbox 360 premium is the better choice. For my needs I would be wasting money, so the better value is with core package. What im getting at and what many fail to see is that what seems retarded to many gaf like yourself is perfect fit for others. Your stubborness in realizing this is frustrating.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Flatbread said:
gofreak said:
Two different perspectives, for you I would agree that the ps3 or xbox 360 premium is the better choice. For my needs I would be wasting money, so the better value is with core package. What im getting at and what many fail to see is that what seems retarded to many gaf like yourself is perfect fit for others. Your stubborness in realizing this is frustrating.

No, I totally get the importance of having that lower entry point. I just think the lower entry point should offer more, at the same price, of course. That's what I was expecting, that's what I think most people were expecting.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
sonycowboy said:
e) It's gonna be an 80/20 split, so developers will support the HDD just as if it was 100% (how long will the 80/20 split last, and the only source i recall that stated 80/20 was the analyst that people blasted for telling us there'd by 2 skus and a $99 external HDD in the first place)

disagree on the support. I agree on the initial split of the packages though.

I doubt MS mandated no developer can require the HDD just so they can launch a non-HDD package at launch. Mostly thats early adopters anyway, and it smacks of a last minute change of mind to me.

They are thinking longer term - either for PS3 launch, or 2 years down the line. Keeping their options open to remain price competitive. They are launching first and so they do not know if Sony will pack in a HDD.
 
SKOPE said:
You are the only person I have ever heard claim the Wave Bird produces lag.

I'm really, really late, (page 11 already?!) but...

The Wave Bird produces lag. I loved the thing at first--bought four of them. Thought they were flawless. And truthfully, they almost are. BUT, after a while, I noticed that it's harder to "smash" in SSBM, and harder to do some of the really tricky stuff in Monkey Ball.

They work fine for most games. But in the ones where you need super precision timing, it's just not good enough. I've given 3 of my 4 away. The other, I use for a 3rd or 4th player who doesn't think it matters. My friend Bruce (player 2 at all times) won't touch it either; he can tell the difference too.

You nay-sayers are the same guys who claim the human eye can only see 24fps, aren't you? :lol
 

Nebur

Member
WTH is this¿?!?¿!

http://www.origenxbox360.com/

http://www.planetxbox360.com/?view=article&article=84

Registrant:
Microsoft Corporation
Domain Administrator
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
US
Email: [removed]

Checkout this wiki and the history of that wiki here. Note the name Gamem8ker (Gamemaker = Microsoft?).

Now check this out, specifically:

On November 25th the Xbox 360 will be upgraded to HD-DVD in the Premium Version only. This can easily be seen by the different drives in the core system and the premium system. The Core System will be released a few weeks earlier than the HD-DVD premium version. HD-DVD version comes out November 25th.

So it seems that HD-DVD will be announced in the System/Premium Xbox360 package version at some stage!


OMG: HD-DVD on X360 Prenium packages??!??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HD_DVD&diff=21457393&oldid=21429420

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Origenxbox360&action=history
 

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Nebur said:
WTH is this¿?!?¿!

http://www.origenxbox360.com/

http://www.planetxbox360.com/?view=article&article=84

Registrant:
Microsoft Corporation
Domain Administrator
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
US
Email: [removed]

Checkout this wiki and the history of that wiki here. Note the name Gamem8ker (Gamemaker = Microsoft?).

Now check this out, specifically:

On November 25th the Xbox 360 will be upgraded to HD-DVD in the Premium Version only. This can easily be seen by the different drives in the core system and the premium system. The Core System will be released a few weeks earlier than the HD-DVD premium version. HD-DVD version comes out November 25th.

So it seems that HD-DVD will be announced in the System/Premium Xbox360 package version at some stage!


OMG: HD-DVD on X360 Prenium packages??!??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HD_DVD&diff=21457393&oldid=21429420

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Origenxbox360&action=history


NO FUCKIN WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe this news, even though I want to
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
Nebur said:
WTH is this¿?!?¿!

http://www.origenxbox360.com/

http://www.planetxbox360.com/?view=article&article=84

Registrant:
Microsoft Corporation
Domain Administrator
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
US
Email: [removed]

Checkout this wiki and the history of that wiki here. Note the name Gamem8ker (Gamemaker = Microsoft?).

Now check this out, specifically:

On November 25th the Xbox 360 will be upgraded to HD-DVD in the Premium Version only. This can easily be seen by the different drives in the core system and the premium system. The Core System will be released a few weeks earlier than the HD-DVD premium version. HD-DVD version comes out November 25th.

So it seems that HD-DVD will be announced in the System/Premium Xbox360 package version at some stage!


OMG: HD-DVD on X360 Prenium packages??!??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HD_DVD&diff=21457393&oldid=21429420

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Origenxbox360&action=history

Fake, right?
 

Argyle

Member
Nebur said:
WTH is this¿?!?¿!

http://www.origenxbox360.com/

http://www.planetxbox360.com/?view=article&article=84

Registrant:
Microsoft Corporation
Domain Administrator
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
US
Email: [removed]

Checkout this wiki and the history of that wiki here. Note the name Gamem8ker (Gamemaker = Microsoft?).

Now check this out, specifically:

On November 25th the Xbox 360 will be upgraded to HD-DVD in the Premium Version only. This can easily be seen by the different drives in the core system and the premium system. The Core System will be released a few weeks earlier than the HD-DVD premium version. HD-DVD version comes out November 25th.

So it seems that HD-DVD will be announced in the System/Premium Xbox360 package version at some stage!


OMG: HD-DVD on X360 Prenium packages??!??!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HD_DVD&diff=21457393&oldid=21429420

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Origenxbox360&action=history


Umm...yeah.

Can't anyone edit a wikipedia page?
 

Ponn

Banned
Argyle said:
Umm...yeah.

Can't anyone edit a wikipedia page?

Yes, that's why it's funny when people actually refrence it as a fact. Our own newspaper actually did that recently and I cringed.

If by chance this is true it's great news for the HD-DVD camp and they really need this and makes the Premium pack just that much more attractive over the core pack. But I think everyone will be in general agreement that this a fake especially with the 360 packs already announced and nowhere on any of their stuff. They would be pushing this if so.
 

Mrbob

Member
The premium bundle is now worth it for sure. MS is throwing in two AA batteries with it! WOO!

msconfisdent360news.JPG


But I think they forgot the batteries for the lame mini remote they are including. Couldn't they at least given gamers the real thing?
 

IJoel

Member
Mrbob said:
The premium bundle is now worth it for sure. MS is throwing in two AA batteries with it! WOO!

msconfisdent360news.JPG


But I think they forgot the batteries for the lame mini remote they are including. Couldn't they at least given gamers the real thing?

The remote controller's powered by human energy. Only those hardcore enough to buy the premium pack contain such levels of human energy.
 

Mrbob

Member
IJoel said:
The remote controller's powered by human energy. Only those hardcore enough to buy the premium pack contain such levels of human energy.


:lol :lol :lol

Ohhh man MS left them too open with all their bullshit. It wouldn't be so bad if everything X360 has been overpromised and underdelivered at the current time. Here is hoping things get together before launch.
 

IJoel

Member
Mrbob said:
:lol :lol :lol

Ohhh man MS left them too open with all their bullshit. It wouldn't be so bad if everything X360 has been overpromised and underdelivered at the current time. Here is hoping things get together before launch.

It's funny even people like us (that really like their Xbox) are bashing them.
 

Mrbob

Member
IJoel said:
It's funny even people like us (that really like their Xbox) are bashing them.


Yup. Xbox is my primary gaming source since it came out in 2001. But we also shouldn't have to get fleeced and put up with so much BS either. MS has changed so much shit and have so much doubletalk since the unveiling of the X360 it's pathetic. Everything shown sans Oblivion and Gears of War don't look too hot. It's like MS is trying to tell users not to upgrade to X360 this year. Ah well still waiting on Madden 06 next gen.

With the way MS execs keep on pumping up PD0, it better be one of the greatest first person games to be released.
 
gofreak said:
MS should have. There won't be one, PS3 ain't going to be $299 I don't think, but they're packing even more in for the time with PS3 than they did with PS2 imo. PS3 at $500 would be better value than the X360 core or premium. Rev should be excellent value.



I agree, but that is all a big part in what makes it less value than 4 years ago.

Also, I don't know if it's been confirmed, but living in Ireland, this news doesn't make me very pleased right now :lol

MS Ireland said:
€420 ($511) and €65 ($80) per game.

Rip-off Ireland strikes again!

Oh fucknuts. :[

I'm sorry, but that's about the height of my input at the moment. It's always good when we get higher numeric price points than in the States, despite the weaker dollar.
 

Pug

Member
The price points are fantastic. Just returning from Italy ( 2 weeks of bliss away from work) £209.99 for the basic pack and £279.99 for the full pack are very very attractive. There is little doubt both bundles will be well received at these prices. As for splitting the user base HDD wise this is obviously a very valid point, but can be answered by how it was utilised on Xbox. Does anyone actually know how many games required it, to function correctly? The reaction in the UK seems to be exact opposite of what gamers are feeling in the States. I paid £299 for both my PS2 and Xbox so maybe its unsuprising that the 360 full bundle is looking great value.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Mrbob said:
Yup. Xbox is my primary gaming source since it came out in 2001. But we also shouldn't have to get fleeced and put up with so much BS either. MS has changed so much shit and have so much doubletalk since the unveiling of the X360 it's pathetic. Everything shown sans Oblivion and Gears of War don't look too hot. It's like MS is trying to tell users not to upgrade to X360 this year. Ah well still waiting on Madden 06 next gen.

With the way MS execs keep on pumping up PD0, it better be one of the greatest first person games to be released.


I think part of the problem is the time difference between the competing consoles.

PS2 -> PS3 will be a huge leap. Six years, lots of new technology. If you are a PS2 gamer you are gonna love PS3.

Xbox -> Xbox 360 is 4 years. Much less of a leap in technology. If you are an Xbox owner you are already used to the best looking console games. How much better is Xbox 360 really?


I'm buying both, so I don't really care.


Pug said:
The reaction in the UK seems to be exact opposite of what gamers are feeling in the States. I paid £299 for both my PS2 and Xbox so maybe its unsuprising that the 360 full bundle is looking great value

Good point. I think because of the price, in the UK we are assuming we'll buy the £299 pack, and we're getting a good deal compared to what a lot of us paid for PS2, Xbox. Whereas in the US, if you use price parity, you end up comparing PS2, Xbox against the core pack, and therefore feel a bit pissed off that you get less (or have to pay more for the real deal)

Hey Sony! Xbox 360 is going to fly off the shelves in Europe (well, all 400k units anyway). You'd better watch out - and launch PS3 in Spring :crosses fingers:
 

border

Member
For some reason I get a big chuckle out of the "Whilst Supplies Last" in the X360 promo advertisement. For a brief moment, that sounds like a Shakespeare character ;)
 

BioFan

Member
msconfisdent360news.JPG

I prefer the standard finish DVD tray...the chrome tray sucks...but there is no way I am getting the retard pack...where's my option MS?
 

JMPovoa

Member
JMPovoa(me) said:
What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with a wifi adapter and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

Striek said:
Because Microsoft has shown they don't want to piss away money on the Xbox project. And it makes sense for them not to.

Why even bother asking a ridiculous hypothetical? Its not going to happen.

JMPovoa(me) said:
It's as ridiculous as assuming it won't happen. It all depends on alot of stuff. It's not something you can just assume at year's+ distance. It could just be the wifi or just the HDD for all i care.


Tony HoTT said:
JMPovoa said:
It's as ridiculous as assuming it won't happen. It all depends on alot of stuff. It's not something you can just assume at year's+ distance. It could just be the wifi or just the HDD for all i care.

Good god. :lol

J Allard said:
"J Allard (Expert):
Q: Why not package the Xbox 360 with only the hard drive and a wireless controller for $349.99, so that you can have one SKU
A: good question and one of the many combinations we looked at. with our research with hard core gamers, retailers, and the broader market, we felt like these two configurations were the right starting point. the great news is that the way we have desgined the system in a modular way we can easily adjust these configurations over time.

Doesn't seem that ridiculous now does it?
 

Kolgar

Member
Doesn't seem that ridiculous now does it?

If MS were to make such a change so soon after the 360's launch, I think it would really make a lot of first-year adopters angry.

Can MS change configurations down the road? Sure. But hopefully, they've put enough forethought into their current configs (i.e., not screwed them up) so that a knee-jerk, "here-comes-PS3" reaction will not be necessary.
 

border

Member
I like how "we can easily adjust these configurations over time" has so quickly come to mean that whatever Fantasy Bundle you are currently imagining is not only possible but likely.
 
So to sum it all up:

Microsoft has made the HDD obsolete for game programming.

It's soley used as a media device for music/movies, etc. And to save games of course.

The biggest drawback of this being that games WONT be programmed to make use of the HDD.

How big of an effect will this have?

Most likely it will mean long load times.. I HATE load times.. what crap!!!

Argh.. damnit.. just get rid of the $299 SKU... console games have grown up.. the price needs to grow up too.

10 years ago kids were getting there parents to pay $299 for a console at launch.. why not $399 now?

After all.. 10 year ago kids were getting $50 walkmen for their birthdays, now they are getting $299 iPods.
 
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