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[cyberheater]

You should be a car salesman... I don't care nor is the PC comparison IMO even valid because a PC is a multi-function machine that has a whole bunch more going on than just being able to play games.

Get real mate. The comparison is valid because we're talking about it's gaming capabilitys due to the fact that it's a gaming machine and this is a gaming forum. Get a grip.

 

[DarienA]

Get real mate. The comparison is valid because we're talking about it's gaming capabilitys due to the fact that it's a gaming machine and this is a gaming forum. Get a grip.

<sigh> This is an old tired argument... a PC is a multi-function machine first, it's design must incorporate the ability to do more than just play games.

A game console is a game machine first(though even they are heading towards being multi-fuctional) whose design is specifically optimized for processing to play games.

Get real indeed.

 

[IJoel]

Personally, not really. Or, I should say, I understand why but its because you're looking at the HDD issue in a vaccuum. Total package at $299 - how are you getting less than you did this generation?

Things you get with 299 X360 that you didn't get with 299 Xbox:

- Dramatically improved CPU, GPU and RAM specs
- Support for wireless controllers OTOB
- Standard USB 2.0 connectors with support promised for variety of standard USB media devices - flash mem cards, digital cameras, mp3 players, etc.
- Far more robust front-end OS services, accessible instantly from any game
- connectivity with services on a standard home network

Balanced against the exclusion of a built-in hdd (but NOT support for one) and I can't say that it's a step back.

As for what it means in terms of X360 games supporting the HDD, I'm willing to bet that once the dust settles the following will be true:

- Virtually 100% of games will be able to use the hdd for game saves
- At least parity of custom soundtrack support among X360 games based on % of Xbox library that did, but I expect higher percentage to do so on the X360
- 50-60% of the X360 library will be able to utilize the HDD for something other than game saves or custom soundtracks, whether its DLC, caching, whatever.

This is what I don't get. All these things listed at pluses are things that result as evolution of a console. You can expect the PS3 and Revolution to be similar in that respect.

- Improved CPU/RAM/etc.: This occurs as a result of each console generation. We got the same thing with Xbox and they didn't toss away the HDD as a result of it.

- Wireless support: This is the only concrete thing I see the device having over the original Xbox.

- USB: What? MS uses a common connector and this is a plus? When they won't support multiple 3rd party devices, for instance, making you pay $100 for what is typically a $25 USB wireless adapter.

- OS Services/Connectivity: Console OS Evolution. I do not dispute that they've done a really great job at this. We had a nice OS (for its time, on Xbox.)

The point is that with Xbox, everyone had a hard disk. With Xbox 360, they don't. Plain and simple. It's a step backwards. They made really nice improvements in the software and services area, completely screw customers with their price gouging in accessories (I still can't believe they'll be selling a 20GB HD in 2005 for $100 and a USB Wireless Adapter for the same,) and removed the Hard Disk from the standard device. They are not even being clear about what you can do with 3rd party devices (e.g. hard disks: can we use them instead of their ridiculously overpriced ones?, etc.) They also won't support Video Streaming without a Media Center PC.

I've always been an Xbox fan EXACTLY BECAUSE OF THE VALUE I got from the console. I always thought they were going in the right direction and I was actually expecting a standard 20 GB drive and optional upgrade drives (40/60 GB.) This is not to say the premium pack isn't a great value. It is, and I will most likely end up getting one. But I just won't put blinders on and decide whatever they throw at me is GREAT.

Finally their entire message from E3, and talk semantics all you want, but their message was that Xbox 360 would come standard with High Definition, wireless, and hard disk support. Every interview and spec listing pointed at this. It was simply deceitful.

 

[dlobro1080]

I don't think the debate is idiotic, I think it's fine, but it depends on how you look at things. From a business standpoint, MS is trying something new, which I think is pretty exciting, and I'm eager to see how it works out. I've made the analogy before: it reminds me of Apple's strategy with the iPod, where there are a ton of different versions out there, and people are able to choose the one they want based on how big a music fan they are, what they can afford, and what they want their iPod to do. It's been an extremely successful business model for them, and I think it will be for MS as well.

 

[DarienA]

Excuse me if this has been gone over before... does the premium system come with the play and charge kit? I remember that among everything else that was talked about it was mentioned that when your wireless controllers got low you could plug them in and keep playing.

I don't think the debate is idiotic, I think it's fine, but it depends on how you look at things. From a business standpoint, MS is trying something new, which I think is pretty exciting, and I'm eager to see how it works out. I've made the analogy before: it reminds me of Apple's strategy with the iPod, where there are a ton of different versions out there, and people are able to choose the one they want based on how big a music fan they are, what they can afford, and what they want their iPod to do. It's been an extremely successful business model for them, and I think it will be for MS as well.

Except that no current generation Ipod(which I believe is the Ipod Photo now without the Photo name, just back to Ipod) is now missing a HD.

 

[IJoel]

Excuse me if this has been gone over before... does the premium system come with the play and charge kit? I remember that among everything else that was talked about it was mentioned that when your wireless controllers got low you could plug them in and keep playing.

No, it doesn't even come with a $20 USB charging cable.

 

[kaching]

both were top of the line at the time

You're going to get improved specs each generation.

There's no guarantee how much base system specs are going to improve. Sounds like X360 devs and potential buyers got an upgrade from 256 meg RAM to 512 which wasn't initially assured, for example. And odds on the Nintendo Rev at the moment are that it will be less powerful than either the X360 or PS3 even though its likely arrive later than both.

that's like saying "FREE SODA - CUPS COST $1"

It's no different from wired controllers in that regard and it's still an improvement over this gen where NO wireless controller support was offered OTOB from day 1 and we all had to play a waiting game for a year or more on each console to see if they would.

Much of the above is fluff in terms of what the system does in terms of playing games.. nice for sure but the connections to media devices means nothing for me when I'm playing games... ditto for the connectivity to the network.

As I understand it, support for USB storage devices as well as access to network storage is partially intended as a surrogate to memcards or the hdd for game purposes. I could be wrong but I believe it does mean something for playing games.

the additional XBL integration is nice... but again that means nothing to me as far as the current 1 game I would be playing...

Not even for, say, user created content additions/upgrades available via the Marketplace?

I think that's a bold prediction.

*shrugs* We'll see.

 

[DarienA]

There's no guarantee how much base system specs are going to improve. Sounds like X360 devs and potential buyers got an upgrade from 256 meg RAM to 512 which wasn't initially assured, for example. And odds on the Nintendo Rev at the moment are that it will be less powerful than either the X360 or PS3 even though its likely arrive later than both.

No but you're always going to get a bumpb so this is something that I just can't see as being touted as an "exclusive" feature.

As I understand it, support for USB storage devices as well as access to network storage is partially intended as a surrogate to memcards or the hdd for game purposes. I could be wrong but I believe it does mean something for playing games.

Well MS sure hasn't said that... they've demo'd the unit at 2 locations now? And while they've touted the media connectivity, not a peep about network storage access.

Hey I think it's great if that's the case I'll just link the thing to my home network and be done with it.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

It's no different from wired controllers in that regard and it's still an improvement over this gen where NO wireless controller support was offered OTOB from day 1 and we all had to play a waiting game for a year or more on each console to see if they would.

What I meant was you still have to buy the controller. When I bought my Logitech controllers this gen, I got the dongle with them. Now the dongle is built-in. Either way, you can only make use of the thing when you have the controller and you still have to buy the controller.

 

[KingV]

Excuse me if this has been gone over before... does the premium system come with the play and charge kit? I remember that among everything else that was talked about it was mentioned that when your wireless controllers got low you could plug them in and keep playing.



Except that no current generation Ipod(which I believe is the Ipod Photo now without the Photo name, just back to Ipod) is now missing a HD.

Well.... Ipod Shuffle.

 

[rastex]

Well MS sure hasn't said that... they've demo'd the unit at 2 locations now? And while they've touted the media connectivity, not a peep about network storage access.

Hey I think it's great if that's the case I'll just link the thing to my home network and be done with it.

Well I think this would be one of the more hidden features, because why would anybody buy the HDD or memory cards or whatever? The reason I'm hopeful for network storage is because I vaguely remember reading that it's doable in the SDK docs, but it's been a while now since I've read them. Essentially they're virtualizing all storage, so anything from usb, network, the HDD, memory cards, to the game developers it wouldn't matter. So it's simply on MS's end to allow game saves/dlc etc to be saved to the network or USB devices. Which would be very very sweet.

 

[DarienA]

Well.... Ipod Shuffle.

But the Ipod Shuffle isn't a Ipod that suddenly for the new generation had it's HD removed... it's a completely different product with smaller storage...and even it has built in flash memory storage.

Well I think this would be one of the more hidden features, because why would anybody buy the HDD or memory cards or whatever? The reason I'm hopeful for network storage is because I vaguely remember reading that it's doable in the SDK docs, but it's been a while now since I've read them. Essentially they're virtualizing all storage, so anything from usb, network, the HDD, memory cards, to the game developers it wouldn't matter. So it's simply on MS's end to allow game saves/dlc etc to be saved to the network or USB devices. Which would be very very sweet.

Hopeful I am, but doubtful I am.

 

[Ponn]

Well I think this would be one of the more hidden features, because why would anybody buy the HDD or memory cards or whatever? The reason I'm hopeful for network storage is because I vaguely remember reading that it's doable in the SDK docs, but it's been a while now since I've read them. Essentially they're virtualizing all storage, so anything from usb, network, the HDD, memory cards, to the game developers it wouldn't matter. So it's simply on MS's end to allow game saves/dlc etc to be saved to the network or USB devices. Which would be very very sweet.

If you glance at the Xbox 360 Brochure thread and take a gander at the memory card you will notice it says in one of the bullet points *Required to use Xbox Live if HDD not present.

So I would take a gander you are gonna be quite limited on using any type of storage besides a Xbox 360 Memory Card or a Xbox 360 HDD.

 

[kaching]

DarienA: I didn't say the increase in core system specs was somehow an "exclusive" feature. The point was that, while you are assured of some increase in base specs over the previous console by the same manufacturer, there's no guarantee of HOW MUCH that improvement will be. There's no guaranteed baseline improvement so simply taking for granted whatever improvement you get as "to be expected" is a little disingenuous.

Guy: I understood all that which is why I said it's essentially no different than the situation for wireless controllers in that regard. Which is an improvement.

IJoel: See my previous post for some comments applicable to a couple of your points. In addition:

USB: What? MS uses a common connector and this is a plus?

Compared to the original Xbox? Yes. That's the only comparison I'm making right now, based on Darien's original question.

We had a nice OS (for its time, on Xbox.)

I'd argue that some of the ideas inherent in the Xbox OS were steps in the right direction but the overall implementation was too kludgy, slow and poorly organized to be considered nice. A little more full-featured than any other console OS thus far, but still treated like an afterthought just like the rest.

The point is that with Xbox, everyone had a hard disk. With Xbox 360, they don't. Plain and simple. It's a step backwards.

Everyone that wants an HDD with their X360 can get one, from day one. It will be available in one of two standard packs that MS is releasing to retailers and it will be available as a standalone purchase, the latter being an option (i.e. an improvement) that wasn't available this gen. This is NOTHING like the FUBAR'd situation Sony created with the PS2 HDD and I don't see how it can simply be interpreted as a step backwards when it brings more flexibility to the X360 scene than the original Xbox configuration allowed.

...with their price gouging in accessories...

-and-

Finally their entire message from E3, and talk semantics all you want, but their message was that Xbox 360 would come standard with High Definition, wireless, and hard disk support. Every interview and spec listing pointed at this. It was simply deceitful.

No dispute here, but I was never talking about pricing policies related to accessories or what their PR said they'd do related to X360 SKU(s). I was just focusing on the question of whether the base X360 pack could really be regarded as an overall step back from the base Xbox pack. I could see how you might view it as two steps forward, one step back, but not simply as a step back.

 

[KingV]

But the Ipod Shuffle isn't a Ipod that suddenly for the new generation had it's HD removed... it's a completely different product with smaller storage...and even it has built in flash memory storage.

I know, I was just being a pain in the ass. As far as network storage, I'd love to see it, but I don't think we will because of cheating on Xbox Live, and hacking the hell out of game saves.

 

[Argyle]

Well I think this would be one of the more hidden features, because why would anybody buy the HDD or memory cards or whatever? The reason I'm hopeful for network storage is because I vaguely remember reading that it's doable in the SDK docs, but it's been a while now since I've read them. Essentially they're virtualizing all storage, so anything from usb, network, the HDD, memory cards, to the game developers it wouldn't matter. So it's simply on MS's end to allow game saves/dlc etc to be saved to the network or USB devices. Which would be very very sweet.

Well, I was hoping for this too, but let's be realistic here - a company that redesigns the video output port just to force Xbox 1 owners to buy new cables at twice the price isn't going to give up two potential profit centers (licensed memory cards and HDDs) for free. As someone else noted already, they've pretty much said you need a memory card or HDD to access Xbox Live, so this seems pretty likely...

It's too bad because there's really no technical reason not to, as I'm sure every save file will be digitally signed...that should protect save game data until the box itself is compromised (and if that happens, MS will have a lot more to worry about than someone modifying a savegame on a USB keychain drive)...

 

[rastex]

Argyle,

I understand it from a business perspective I just find it short-sighted and kind of anti-collaborative where everything else in their philosophy is very collaborative. One of the big selling poitns for Vista is going to be that it connects with everything, seamlessly and without any hassle, I'd just expect that same approach to apply to the 360.

 

[DarienA]

DarienA: I didn't say the increase in core system specs was somehow an "exclusive" feature. The point was that, while you are assured of some increase in base specs over the previous console by the same manufacturer, there's no guarantee of HOW MUCH that improvement will be. There's no guaranteed baseline improvement so simply taking for granted whatever improvement you get as "to be expected" is a little disingenuous.

WTF? You just accused me of a false appearance of simple frankness ... dem's fighting words. It is to be expected whether it be the supposed not as much increase of the Revolution, or the supposed high end increase of the PS3 that there will be an increase, touting that increase as some great feature just doesn't fly with me.

Everyone that wants an HDD with their X360 can get one, from day one. It will be available in one of two standard packs that MS is releasing to retailers and it will be available as a standalone purchase, the latter being an option (i.e. an improvement) that wasn't available this gen. This is NOTHING like the FUBAR'd situation Sony created with the PS2 HDD and I don't see how it can simply be interpreted as a step backwards when it brings more flexibility to the X360 scene than the original Xbox configuration allowed.

I'm sorry I've tried but I just can't quite wrap my head around folks saying the option of buying the hard drive or not buying the hard drive is a good thing... based on the machine it's the successor to... but I won't beat that particular point up anymore.

 

[KingV]

Well, I was hoping for this too, but let's be realistic here - a company that redesigns the video output port just to force Xbox 1 owners to buy new cables at twice the price isn't going to give up two potential profit centers (licensed memory cards and HDDs) for free. As someone else noted already, they've pretty much said you need a memory card or HDD to access Xbox Live, so this seems pretty likely...

It's too bad because there's really no technical reason not to, as I'm sure every save file will be digitally signed...that should protect save game data until the box itself is compromised (and if that happens, MS will have a lot more to worry about than someone modifying a savegame on a USB keychain drive)...

The video output could be linked to Nvidia patents, which may be why it was changed.

 

[cyberheater]

I know a lot of you have valid concerns around the recent launch details of 360 and specifically around the pricing of peripherals which seem a high.

I've seen on Major Nelsons blog that he's due back at Redmond soon and he's taking a lot of feedback with him.

Do you think MS will listen or has the train already left the station due to marketing materials already being printed etc...

 

[mckmas8808]

Marketing materials have already left. TOO late.

 

[SteveMeister]

WTF? You just accused me of a false appearance of simple frankness ... dem's fighting words. It is to be expected whether it be the supposed not as much increase of the Revolution, or the supposed high end increase of the PS3 that there will be an increase, touting that increase as some great feature just doesn't fly with me.



I'm sorry I've tried but I just can't quite wrap my head around folks saying the option of buying the hard drive or not buying the hard drive is a good thing... based on the machine it's the successor to... but I won't beat that particular point up anymore.

The funny thing is, I bet that a very large percentage of original Xbox owners had no idea the thing had a hard disk drive to begin with.

 

[DarienA]

The funny thing is, I bet that a very large percentage of original Xbox owners had no idea the thing had a hard disk drive to begin with.

I bet they found out eventually. EDIT: Hmm wait, wasn't t the whole it has a HD part of the original marketing push? (Not in commercials, but in print media)

Marketing materials have already left. TOO late.

....

 

[border]

They cannot change the SKUs now, but it's not too late for them to lower the ridiculous prices on accessories, or cut the cost of the Premium Bundle. I don't expect that they will.

 

[Beowvlf]

Ok, disregarding any qualms I have with pricing, value, etc., this is the main problem I have with both the 360 Core unit and the Premium pack:

Neither are, in terms of a leap to the next generation, quality purchases. Now, before you freak out, let me explain.

The defenders in this and many other threads have provided two answers to choosing which pack to get. If you don't care much about online, DLC, BC, etc., just buy the Core pack. If you want the 'full' Xbox experience, buy the Premium pack. My problem is, both suck at their respective tasks.

The Core system is, in my opinion, a pathetic leap for a next generation console, especially in the face of its competitor's upcoming offerings. Nevermind the graphical upgrades or the improved UI, that shit is the bare minimum. In 2005 (nearly 2006), out-of-the-box I'm stuck using a freakin' wired controller, and that is just wrong. I'll also have to hang on to my old, oversized Xbox if I want to keep playing its games (or worse yet, I won't be able to try any of them if I never owned an Xbox) because the system lacks BC. I won't be able to save any of my games or go online out-of-the-box (or by using any of the universal memory sticks I already own) without buying a proprietary memory card, and I won't be able to utilize custom soundtracks unless I plug in a damn external player. The Core system pack, in my opinion, just doesn't cut it anymore for providing a suitable next gen leap.

And as for the 'full' experience Premium pack, my problem is just that. Thanks to the Core pack, there won't be any such 'full' experience. The HDD won't see the support we hoped it would, there won't be as much DLC worthy of needing an HDD as we hoped there would, and the BC offered is absolutely tripe. I'm fully expecting more than half my collection won't be compatible upon release, and compared to what Sony and Nintendo are offering, that is just unacceptable.

By offering the two packs, MS has taken the system, split it into two lesser portions, and destroyed the legitimacy and viability of either package as a suitable transition into the next generation of gaming.

 

[Nerevar]

I've moved from anger to acceptance. I guess if you Bethesda guys can make Oblivion work without a HDD then it shouldn't really be a problem for anyone (although I still don't see how MMOs will work without it .. but that makes no difference to me as I don't care for MMOs).

I'm still pissed about their peripheral prices though (specifically the wireless dongles). There really is no excuse for them to charge that much for them.

 

[cyberheater]

Ok, disregarding any qualms I have with pricing, value, etc., this is the main problem I have with both the 360 Core unit and the Premium pack:

Neither are, in terms of a leap to the next generation, quality purchases. Now, before you freak out, let me explain.

The defenders in this and many other threads have provided two answers to choosing which pack to get. If you don't care much about online, DLC, BC, etc., just buy the Core pack. If you want the 'full' Xbox experience, buy the Premium pack. My problem is, both suck at their respective tasks.

The Core system is, in my opinion, a pathetic leap for a next generation console, especially in the face of its competitor's upcoming offerings. Nevermind the graphical upgrades or the improved UI, that shit is the bare minimum. In 2005 (nearly 2006), out-of-the-box I'm stuck using a freakin' wired controller, and that is just wrong. I'll also have to hang on to my old, oversized Xbox if I want to keep playing its games (or worse yet, I won't be able to try any of them if I never owned an Xbox) because the system lacks BC. I won't be able to save any of my games or go online out-of-the-box (or by using any of the universal memory sticks I already own) without buying a proprietary memory card, and I won't be able to utilize custom soundtracks unless I plug in a damn external player. The Core system pack, in my opinion, just doesn't cut it anymore for providing a suitable next gen leap.

And as for the 'full' experience Premium pack, my problem is just that. Thanks to the Core pack, there won't be any such 'full' experience. The HDD won't see the support we hoped it would, there won't be as much DLC worthy of needing an HDD as we hoped there would, and the BC offered is absolutely tripe. I'm fully expecting more than half my collection won't be compatible upon release, and compared to what Sony and Nintendo are offering, that is just unacceptable.

By offering the two packs, MS has taken the system, split it into two lesser portions, and destroyed the legitimacy and viability of either package as a suitable transition into the next generation of gaming.

Seriously. What a pile of crap.

Take a core 360 running PGR3 and take any current gen racing game and tell me there's not a generation of hardware difference between them.

 

[gofreak]

Seriously. What a pile of crap.

Take a core 360 running PGR3 and take any current gen racing game and tell me there's not a generation of hardware difference between them.

He's not talking about power. He's talking about value.

Xbox @ $299 was = DVD drive + HDD + ethernet + a kickass amount of power for the time

X360 @ $299 = DVD drive + ethernet + kickass amount of power for the time

Given the cost of the components beyond the processing power has undoubtedly dropped significantly over 4 years, the step back in terms of value is quite unbelievable. For its time, X360 is offering less value at $299 than Xbox did. And that's before we even start touching peripherals (which are an absolute and utter joke in terms of value, for their time).

 

[Any1]

Everyone that wants an HDD with their X360 can get one, from day one. It will be available in one of two standard packs that MS is releasing to retailers and it will be available as a standalone purchase, the latter being an option (i.e. an improvement) that wasn't available this gen. This is NOTHING like the FUBAR'd situation Sony created with the PS2 HDD and I don't see how it can simply be interpreted as a step backwards when it brings more flexibility to the X360 scene than the original Xbox configuration allowed.

Brings more flexibility? To who? How can something that came standard with the Xbox, but now doesn't, can be seen as anything but a step back? How is giving us an option on something that every single customer wants seen as a good thing? The fact is it came standard with the old Xbox, now you have to pay extra to use a hdd that won't even be used nearly as much by developers as it was with the original Xbox.

So let me see, i now need to pay a premium for something that was standard with the first one, and not only that but it loses alot of the usefulness that it had with the original Xbox because developers cannot make their games to truly take advantage of the harddrive like they could with the original Xbox. Now how that can be seen as anything other than a step back is beyond me.

 

[Geek]

More industry reaction. Kasavin... GO!

Wouldn't life just be a whole lot easier if only the $399 Xbox 360 model existed? Is anyone who isn't easily tricked really going to buy the $299 model? Michael Pachter of Wedbush Morgan Securities (whose words I happen to be a big fan of) referred to the cheaper model as a "publicity stunt," stating that "[Microsoft is] doing it to say they are launching at $299. The hardcore guys will absolutely not buy the $299 model...only a complete idiot would buy the $299 model."

This is me nodding my head. Yeah, that sounds about right. Let's consider the context. Here comes a new game system that's at least twice as expensive as every other game system on the market, except for the feeling-awfully-overpriced Sony PSP. The target audience is the early adopter/video game enthusiast/geek who thinks he's cool. He or she is someone who's ready and willing to pony up a lot of money for a new game system in exchange for what luxury automobile manufacturers and real estate brokers like to call "pride of ownership." This is a person for whom--let's be honest--money is not a serious concern. Either that or someone with some seriously screwed up priorities. No offense, Dad.

The entire value proposition of the Xbox 360 is still too vague for my comfort. It wasn't very long ago when the reason someone wanted to get a new game system was for the games. I needed Super Mario World. I needed Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter 3. Meanwhile, the yet-undisclosed launch lineup of the Xbox 360 sounds a little iffy, unless you ask Chris Lewis, the regional vice president of Xbox across Europe, Middle East, and Africa, who stated in a recent interview that "Xbox 360 will unleash the greatest launch line-up in the history of video games."

http://www.gamespot.com/features/freeplay/index.html?q=1&push=0

 

[Ponn]

He's not talking about power. He's talking about value.

Xbox @ $299 was = DVD drive + HDD + ethernet + a kickass amount of power for the time

X360 @ $299 = DVD drive + ethernet + Equal amount of power for the time

Given the cost of the components beyond the processing power has undoubtedly dropped significantly over 4 years, the step back in terms of value is quite unbelievable. For its time, X360 is offering less value at $299 than Xbox did. And that's before we even start touching peripherals (which are an absolute and utter joke in terms of value, for their time).

Fixed

 

[PhatSaqs]

He's not talking about power. He's talking about value.

Xbox @ $299 was = DVD drive + HDD + ethernet + a kickass amount of power for the time

X360 @ $299 = DVD drive + ethernet + kickass amount of power for the time

Given the cost of the components beyond the processing power has undoubtedly dropped significantly over 4 years, the step back in terms of value is quite unbelievable. For its time, X360 is offering less value at $299 than Xbox did.

Hey look!

NES System @ $199 was = Gyromite + Duck Hunt games, R.O.B w/ discs and Gyro, Gun, Two Controllers, kickass amount of power for the time

SNES System @ $199 was = Two Controllers, Super Mario World game, kickass amount of power for the time (AND LOOK MA. NO BC!!123)

AND NO ONE FUCKING CARED!!!1

 

[DarienA]

Meanwhile, the yet-undisclosed launch lineup of the Xbox 360 sounds a little iffy, unless you ask Chris Lewis, the regional vice president of Xbox across Europe, Middle East, and Africa, who stated in a recent interview that "Xbox 360 will unleash the most amazing launch line-up in the history of video games."

Fixed.

 

[gofreak]

Fixed

It's a kickass amount of power for its time. I wasn't talking in terms relative to other consoles. The PS2 had a kickass amount of power for its time too, Xbox just came 18 months later.

Hey look!

NES System @ $199 was = Gyromite + Duck Hunt games, R.O.B w/ discs and Gyro, Gun, Two Controllers, kickass amount of power for the time

SNES System @ $199 was = Two Controllers, Super Mario World game, kickass amount of power for the time (AND LOOK MA. NO BC!!123)

AND NO ONE FUCKING CARED!!!1

Doesn't change my argument, it's less value. Pointing out examples of less value between generations in the (distant) past doesn't change anything.

And regardless, the form of the modern console (consoles with convergence on their mind), has changed such that a difference in features from one gen to the next is now expected. Nintendo was and is only concerned about games, so looking for hardware feature differences beyond power between their generations, early generations in particular, isn't very telling.

And anyway, Mario World > *

 

[Razoric]

:lol :lol :lol

 

[rastex]

He's not talking about power. He's talking about value.

Xbox @ $299 was = DVD drive + HDD + ethernet + a kickass amount of power for the time

X360 @ $299 = DVD drive + ethernet + kickass amount of power for the time

You're being ignorant, blind or simply dishonest if you see the situation this way.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Doesn't change my argument, it's less value. Pointing out examples of less value between generations in the (distant) past doesn't change anything.

I was just sticking a skewer in your argument to say that it shouldnt matter and wont in the end. Your average consumer definitely aint gonna look at things your way and I doubt even most console savvy folk will.

 

[gofreak]

You're being ignorant, blind or simply dishonest if you see the situation this way.

Look at what MS gave you in 2001 for $299. Now scale that level of value up and imagine what an equivalent offering in 2005 for $299 would be. It's not the core X360 pack, in my very humble opinion.

I was just sticking a skewer in your argument to say that it shouldnt matter and wont in the end. Your average consumer definitely aint gonna look at things your way and I doubt even most console savvy folk will.

I don't know, I can pay the $400 for a premium X360 fine, but I'm definitely concious that it's not good value relative to previous offerings for their time, and probably competing future offerings. I don't think I'm alone in that by any stretch of the imagination judging by the reaction over the last couple of days - to say it doesn't matter is a bit dismissive.

 

[kaching]

WTF? You just accused me of a false appearance of simple frankness ... dem's fighting words.

Fair enough. I'll say instead that I think your statement was inaccurate but not intentionally so.

It is to be expected whether it be the supposed not as much increase of the Revolution, or the supposed high end increase of the PS3 that there will be an increase, touting that increase as some great feature just doesn't fly with me.

I'm not concerned with touting it as some great feature on its own. We're talking about assessing whether a $299 X360 is an overall better value than the $299 Xbox was and you can't do that simply by looking at a bullet list of features, seeing that one is removed in going from Xbox to X360 while not accounting for the improvements to arrive at the conclusion that the X360 is simply a step back. You can't simply factor out performance enhancements to base systems specs in that discussion because for $299 the X360 is not simply an Xbox with the 8 gig HDD taken out.

I'm sorry I've tried but I just can't quite wrap my head around folks saying the option of buying the hard drive or not buying the hard drive is a good thing... based on the machine it's the successor to... but I won't beat that particular point up anymore.

I can't speak for anyone else but it boils down to a few points for me:

- A readily available SKU will have it in the box and it will also be available as a standalone purchase from day one for anyone who wants one
- Base capacity is at least doubled over what the Xbox legitimately offered, and it is given the option to go even higher now, both for X360 purchasers down the road and early adopter X360 owners.
- An hdd in every xbox this gen was not a guarantee for anything more than every game supporting its use for game saves anyway and it looks like that baseline is preserved for the X360.
- As stated previously I believe the overall level to which X360 games will use the hdd to augment the game experience will be at least at the same level as it was for the Xbox library.


One thing I do need to retract, based on the leaked X360 brochure thread, are my previous assumptions about other types of storage besides the standard memcards and hdd being allowed for use for game data. Looks like I was wrong there, but I stand with the rest.

 

[kaching]

Look at what MS gave you in 2001 for $299. Now scale that level of value up and imagine what an equivalent offering in 2005 for $299 would be. It's not the core X360 pack, in my very humble opinion.

What is then and who's going to be offering it at $299 in the near future?

 

[PhatSaqs]

I don't know, I can pay the $400 for a premium X360 fine, but I'm definitely concious that it's not good value relative to previous offerings for their time, and probably competing future offerings. I don't think I'm alone in that by any stretch of the imagination judging by the reaction over the last couple of days. To say it doesn't matter is a bit dismissive.

Most are hardly complaining about value vs. 4 years ago. The majority (me included) are peeved that the HDD wont be a standard component of console(s) next gen along with the lack of HDD in the Core Pack. Hardly anyone would care about the 300 vs 400 cost between the packs if: 1) the HDD were cheaper allowing one to pick up a Core Pack and HDD for cheaper than the Premium 2) The HDD was included in the Core Pack or 3) The Core Pack didnt exist at all. It mainly has to due with the Core packs value vs. the Premium.

Ultimatley, most are gonna make a purchase decision based on the leap in graphics, the quality of games available and of course the price.

That said, I still think anyone who buys a Core pack over the premium is a dumb ass, but im sure there will be plenty who pick it up.

 

[gofreak]

What is then and who's going to be offering it at $299 in the near future?

MS should have. There won't be one, PS3 ain't going to be $299 I don't think, but they're packing even more in for the time with PS3 than they did with PS2 imo. PS3 at $500 would be better value than the X360 core or premium. Rev should be excellent value.

Most are hardly complaining about value vs. 4 years ago. The majority (me included) are peeved that the HDD wont be a standard component of console(s) next gen along with the lack of HDD in the Core Pack. Hardly anyone would care about the 300 vs 400 cost between the packs if: 1) the HDD were cheaper allowing one to pick up a Core Pack and HDD for cheaper than the Premium 2) The HDD was included in the Core Pack or 3) The Core Pack didnt exist at all. It mainly has to due with the Core packs value vs. the Premium.

I agree, but that is all a big part in what makes it less value than 4 years ago.

Also, I don't know if it's been confirmed, but living in Ireland, this news doesn't make me very pleased right now :lol

€420 ($511) and €65 ($80) per game.

Rip-off Ireland strikes again!

 

[Mrbob]

Ok I found this at that other place. A little strong with the xbox fan comment but this is pretty damn funny! Good summary of the last week! :lol

I'm back on the X360 bandwagon btw. But this is still funny!

 

[border]

Spin all day long, but corny crap like "a really advanced GUI" and "wireless-capable out of the box" just doesn't sound as good as the hard drive. Hell, "wireless-capable out of the box" doesn't even mean anything. Every console has that.

 

[xsarien]

Spin all day long, but corny crap like "a really advanced GUI" and "wireless-capable out of the box" just doesn't sound as good as the hard drive. Hell, "wireless-capable out of the box" doesn't even mean anything. Every console has that.

If by "every console" you mean the PS3 and Rev, you're right.

 

[Gek54]

Reminds me of this local shaddy car dealer who says in every one of his ads, "If we make a deal, WE WILL TRADE IN YOUR OLD CAR NO MATTER WHAT CONDITION IT IN."

 

[border]

If by "every console" you mean the PS3 and Rev, you're right.

I was talking about "wireless controller capable out of the box". Somebody was using it as as a bullet-point to support MS's leap forward. Unless you actually include the controller in the box, it doesn't make any sense. All consoles can have a wireless controller made for them.

 

[kaching]

MS should have. There won't be one, PS3 ain't going to be $299 I don't think, but they're packing even more in for the time with PS3 than they did with PS2 imo. PS3 at $500 would be better value than the X360 core or premium. Rev should be excellent value.

PS3 at $500 with or without an HDD? And expecting Rev to be an excellent value is based on the assumption its coming in at a significantly lower price point, correct?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

The point is that with Xbox, everyone had a hard disk. With Xbox 360, they don't. Plain and simple. It's a step backwards. They made really nice improvements in the software and services area, completely screw customers with their price gouging in accessories (I still can't believe they'll be selling a 20GB HD in 2005 for $100 and a USB Wireless Adapter for the same,) and removed the Hard Disk from the standard device.

My sentiments exactly.

Downgrade!

 

[sonycowboy]

Spin all day long, but corny crap like "a really advanced GUI" and "wireless-capable out of the box" just doesn't sound as good as the hard drive. Hell, "wireless-capable out of the box" doesn't even mean anything. Every console has that.

It's an unbelievable bastardization of what "out of the box" means, that's for sure.

Xbox core pack
Wireless controller capable (just buy the controller)
Wireless network capable (just buy the wireless adapter)
HDD capable (just buy the HDD)
Backwards compatible capable (just buy the HDD)


I'd be fine if they didn't use the out of the box terminology, which traditionally has always meant that you don't need to buy anthing else.