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[Dr_Cogent]

This whole alacart thing really has me pissed too, because it's all about money. Have you ever noticed whenever you have to buy things alacart, like at a restaurant for instance, shit costs way more?

It's just such a cash grab. I know business is all about making money - but I think they are really going overboard.

 

[gofreak]

PS3 at $500 with or without an HDD?

Without. You're hitting $400 at least with X360 including Wifi. I think Bluray + the rest would be a steal for another $100 (Bluray players alone will probably be several hundred dollars.. and how much do you think MS would charge for a HD-DVD peripheral based on their track record so far with X360 pricing?) - arguably it'd be a steal at even higher prices. That's all relative, however - I don't think PS3 will be $500 or more.

PS3 + HDD at $500 would be utterly embarassing for MS. If that sound ridiculous it's only because of the bar MS has set.

And expecting Rev to be an excellent value is based on the assumption its coming in at a significantly lower price point, correct?

Yes, but it already has $99 over X360 with wifi, so I don't think it'll take much.

 

[kaching]

gofreak, you're comparing products that won't be launched concurrently and the PS3 and Rev still don't have a firm lock on exactly when they'll be available. X360 will be launched worldwide before the end of this year and may very well get enough time to do price adjustment by the time the PS3 and/or Rev arrive. I wouldn't regard either as launching in the same timeframe as the X360 in any case.

 

[gofreak]

gofreak, you're comparing products that won't be launched concurrently and the PS3 and Rev still don't have a firm lock on exactly when they'll be available. X360 will be launched worldwide before the end of this year and may very well get enough time to do price adjustment by the time the PS3 and/or Rev arrive. I wouldn't regard either as launching in the same timeframe as the X360 in any case.

I'm well aware, but this is what X360 will be up against - comparisons will be made, these are its peers. What do you think customers will be comparing to?

PS3 is due in 6 months or less.

The point remains, as a value proposition, X360 is not what Xbox was scaled to late 2005.

X360 may see a price cut when PS3 launches, but the gap between the two would have to be very high before PS3 started looking like bad value. How high do they have to go, really? PS3 is very very likely to be, relatively speaking, excellent value in 2006, even versus a price-cutted X360.

 

[TheDuce22]

PS3 is very very likely to be, relatively speaking, excellent value in 2006, even versus a price-cutted X360.

It really depends on what the games look like compared to xbox 360.

 

[rastex]

The point remains, as a value proposition, X360 is not what Xbox was scaled to late 2005.

This is a great point, one that a lot of people are making, and really, one that I agree with. However, I don't look at this like the 360 is a bad deal, I look at it from the perspective that the original Xbox is one of the best deals in gaming we've EVER had. To expect an anomoly like the Xbox to ever occur again in the forseeable future is wishful thinking at best. That's why it's so stupid when people bashed the Xbox since it brought SO much to the table way above the competitors. And look at what happened in the marketplace, not many people care about the extra features that Xbox provides over the PS2 for the exact same price.

 

[gofreak]

This is a great point, one that a lot of people are making, and really, one that I agree with. However, I don't look at this like the 360 is a bad deal, I look at it from the perspective that the original Xbox is one of the best deals in gaming we've EVER had. To expect an anomoly like the Xbox to ever occur again in the forseeable future is wishful thinking at best.

Unfortunately, MS at the very least suggested we would (standard wireless/hard disk in the $300 range). And I'm not sure how anonamolous such an offer would have been - they're not putting wifi or a next-gen dvd drive in there or anything, so it seemed rather reasonable, more reasonable for them still than Xbox was at the time.

And it's very arguable how anomolous Xbox was. Sure, it was packed high, but it was coming out later too. For its time, PS2 was very feature packed (the DVD drive was a big thing at the time). Depending on price, PS3 could be as good or better value as Xbox was for its time.

It really depends on what the games look like compared to xbox 360.

I'm looking solely at the hardware, what you're getting in the box for your money. The games introduce an entirely different spin on things - obviously it could take only one game to trump price concerns for a person.

 

[TheDuce22]

I'm looking solely at the hardware, what you're getting in the box for your money. The games introduce an entirely different spin on things - obviously it could take only one game to trump price concerns for a person.

Excluding the graphical power, the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. Most people dont even know what that is. Its not established like dvd was when ps2 launched. Because of that it doesnt really add to the perception of ps3 being a better value as much as games that look noticably better would.

 

[sangreal]

Excluding the graphical power, the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. Most people dont even know what that is. Its not established like dvd was when ps2 launched. Because of that it doesnt really add to the perception of ps3 being a better value as much as games that look noticably better would.

Well... its got WiFi built in, which Microsoft is telling me has a value of $100

 

[TheOMan]

Excluding the graphical power, the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. Most people dont even know what that is. Its not established like dvd was when ps2 launched. Because of that it doesnt really add to the perception of ps3 being a better value as much as games that look noticably better would.

Hmmm, that is an interesting point - didn't really consider that before. The general population doesn't know what "Blu-Ray" is and probably won't care that it's in the PS3 so it won't be perceived as valuable (even though it is), that is unless Sony does some *amazing* educational marketing.

 

[mrklaw]

why is it seemingly impossible for people to judge the 360 on its own merits? Why does it have to be an xbox 1 + some stuff?

N64 used cartridges, but nobody moaned about GC moving to discs.

Basically most of the complainers are just whinging because they want more than MS is willing to give them.

and the comment about 'still using wired controllers'? Give me a break. You say it like its the dark ages. Noone has ever released wireless controllers as standard. They are always a premium accessory. At least MS is supplying one in one of the SKUs.

IMO, all the accessories in the premium pack are not essential to the gaming experience and therefore the core pack is completely justifiable. Some might not like it because they want the premium pack at the core pack price, but that just ain't going to happen.

The only slightly valid argument is the HDD. But even then there are a limited number of games that would truly benefit, and clearly MS did research about HDD usage on xbox 1 and decided it wasn't worth the cost.

 

[gofreak]

Excluding the graphical power, the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. Most people dont even know what that is.

I know what it is, and I know I want it. I think most people here know what it is.

Asides from Bluray, there's the standard wifi - a $100 value as said before, according to MS - there's digital video out, there's digitial optical audio out, there's a gigabit switch, there's very broad removeable media support that'll save you a bucket compared to MS's mem card pricing, there's SACD support, there's dual video out, there's bluetooth, there's full backwards compatability with the largest libraries of games across 2 generations, there's more USB ports..and I think most accept it's more powerful, if by what margin remains unclear for now.

Like I say, as a value proposition, PS3 will have to be VERY expensive to be bad value compared to X360 in my eyes, and anyone who actually knows about the systems.

 

[rastex]

I know what it is, and I know I want it. I think most people here know what it is.

Asides from Bluray, there's the standard wifi - a $100 value as said before, according to MS - there's digital video out, there's digitial optical audio out, there's a gigabit switch, there's very broad removeable media support that'll save you a bucket compared to MS's mem card pricing, there's SACD support, there's dual video out, there's bluetooth, there's full backwards compatability with the largest libraries of games across 2 generations, there's more USB ports..and I think most accept it's more powerful, if by what margin remains unclear for now.

Like I say, as a value proposition, PS3 will have to be VERY expensive to be bad value compared to X360 in my eyes, and anyone who actually knows about the systems.

I hate doing the whole take someone's list and add some inane comments to them to downplay the features, but I will say that the vast majority of extra features you listed I think the market finds unimportant. The only feature that can make a significant difference is Blu-Ray. The other features will possibly tip some people that are on the fence, with built-in wifi being the next most important, but things like storage, blutooth etc only appeal to a very limited audience.

Just look at the iPod. Many technophiles balk at the iPod's popularity when there are competitors that offer a better technology for a cheaper price and vastly more features.

An addition, I think a lot of people are really ignoring the software side of things. And by that I don't mean games, I mean in regards to the entire experience which is run by software. Everything from the media hub, to the philosophies that MS has been encouraging in regards to the future of game development. Consoles are more than just the box sitting under your TV, they're the developers cranking away on devkits, the servers running the updates, they're devs that push out the SDKs and tech demos, etc etc. If you're going to compare all of that from the 360 to the Xbox, then 360 destroys the Xbox in terms of everything else.

 

[TheDuce22]

Asides from Bluray, there's the standard wifi - a $100 value as said before, according to MS - there's digital video out, there's digitial optical audio out, there's a gigabit switch, there's very broad removeable media support that'll save you a bucket compared to MS's mem card pricing, there's SACD support, there's dual video out, there's bluetooth, there's full backwards compatability with the largest libraries of games across 2 generations, there's more USB ports..and I think most accept it's more powerful, if by what margin remains unclear for now.

Like I said, excluding the graphical difference the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. The graphical advantage is what will give them leverage. Nobody is going to be ok with paying more just because ps3 has a random assortment of useless features.

 

[gofreak]

I hate doing the whole take someone's list and add some inane comments to them to downplay the features, but I will say that the vast majority of extra features you listed I think the market finds unimportant.

I wish to subscribe to your research

Ultimately, in an objective analysis of value, one can't discriminate between features based on anything but their commercial value. Who are you (or I?) to decide the importance of these features to "the market"? I can only speak for myself as you can only speak for yourself. MS isn't defining what's important and what's not in its core X360 pack, that's for sure.

Sony is covering far more possible usage patterns with PS3, and some of the ones that looked dubious previously already seem to be bearing fruit in terms of value, relatively speaking (that open, removeable media support looks a lot more tempting in light of the announcement of X360's equivalent, for example). This is a system to last 5 or 6 years as Sony's flagship, perhaps up to 10 years on the market. If you consider the type of user that would take advantage of a lot of those features only on PS3 as being "sophisticated" now, consider also how the generally consumers become more sophisticated over time and what things will look like in a few years (and even when not in a position to take full advantage, how most people like to be optimistic and aim for the best, something they can grow into perhaps, something that seems designed for future growth). I'd not like to suggest what would or wouldn't be important over that period of time. All I can simply say is that it's more hardware features, and they're features that'll cost you an awful lot elsewhere - PS3 would have to be very expensive to look like bad value in comparison. That's all.

Personally, I'd find nearly all of its features useful right now.

Like I said, excluding the graphical difference the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. The graphical advantage is what will give them leverage. Nobody is going to be ok with paying more just because ps3 has a random assortment of useless features.

Whilst I completely disagree that the "rest" is useless - this is a subjective point, and I for one certainly don't think so as I ponder if it'd be worth $99 to me to remove the last ethernet cable from my room, for example - Bluray alone ratchets up the value proposition a heck of a lot.

 

[rastex]

I wish to subscribe to your research

Ultimately, in an objective analysis of value, one can't discriminate between features based on anything but their commercial value. Who are you (or I?) to decide the importance of these features to "the market"? I can only speak for myself as you can only speak for yourself. MS isn't defining what's important and what's not in its core X360 pack, that's for sure.

Speaking for yourself is fine, but I'm trying to understand the industry and market as a whole. I don't do this formally or anything, but I try to look at the trends of the industry, look at what people are saying on various messageboards, what tech-savvy non-gamers are saying, what non-tech non-gamers are saying etc. Based on all of these pieces of data I get a much better understanding of the market instead of just looking at what *I* want myself, since I'm fully aware that my own particular tastes are quite peculiar.

Sony is covering far more possible usage patterns with PS3, and some of the ones that looked dubious previously already seem to be bearing fruit in terms of value, relatively speaking (that open, removeable media support looks a lot more tempting in light of the announcement of X360's equivalent, for example). This is a system to last 5 or 6 years as Sony's flagship, perhaps up to 10 years on the market. If you consider the type of user that would take advantage of a lot of those features only on PS3 as being "sophisticated" now, consider also how the generally consumers become more sophisticated over time and what things will look like in a few years (and even when not in a position to take full advantage, how most people like to be optimistic and aim for the best, something they can grow into perhaps, something that seems designed for future growth). I'd not like to suggest what would or wouldn't be important over that period of time. All I can simply say is that it's more hardware features, and they're features that'll cost you an awful lot elsewhere - PS3 would have to be very expensive to look like bad value in comparison. That's all.

Well see that's the thing, let's look at trends and the way people have used these features that are on the PS3. Because the fact of the matter is that all of the features that PS3 is bringing to the table is already available on the PC, except for Blu-Ray. Look at how the market has reacted to all of these features. From my own research as described above, I think that the large majority of the extra features of PS3 are largely superficial to the mainstream consumer. To the tech-savvy college student, a lot of them are really cool, just like the PC offers some really sweet stuff that very few peopel take advantage of.

I'll give you a great example of the disconnect between people here on GAF and the "general" public. During the MTV showcase there was a resounding condemnation of the whole spectacle because it was pretty ridiculous. But if you looked at the general public there was A LOT of attention and it was almost exclusively positive. In my local paper it made the front page news, this little 30-minute special. It was also on CNN, MSNBC, etc etc where no negative commentary was made. That had a huge positive impact on the brand name recognition of the 360, but you would never guessed that if you only paid attention to GAF.

 

[gofreak]

Forgive me, but your "reasearch" is only anecdotal.

Well see that's the thing, let's look at trends and the way people have used these features that are on the PS3. Because the fact of the matter is that all of the features that PS3 is bringing to the table is already available on the PC, except for Blu-Ray. Look at how the market has reacted to all of these features. From my own research as described above, I think that the large majority of the extra features of PS3 are largely superficial to the mainstream consumer. To the tech-savvy college student, a lot of them are really cool, just like the PC offers some really sweet stuff that very few peopel take advantage of.

The PC comparison is erroneous. If we considered the "best case" application and usage of any technology to be limited by what happens in the PC space (initially or otherwise), many many mainstream technologies in use in massmarket products would never have become as mainstream and massmarket as they have. Usage in the PC space doesn't mark the upper limit of the potential or popularity of a technology. And I'd disagree that everything asides from Bluray even currently would be of marginal use to anyone but techies - the removeable media support likely accomodates any portable media you have from your phone or camera, wifi is getting BIG not just in PCs, digital out will be handy for a large proportion of new TVs sold today. But still, we stray into subjective territory. The only objective way to do this is to look at the figures and compare what you're getting in the box without prejudice of a feature's usefullness. For your own purposes, of course your own perception of a feature's usefulness will hold influence, but everyone's outlook on that will be different.

Again though, even if you just want to acknowledge Bluray - that alone trumps pretty much any other feature Sony could include in PS3 from a value point of view IMO, which sort of makes this argument moot.

 

[Ponn]

Like I said, excluding the graphical difference the only real advantage ps3 has is the blueray drive. The graphical advantage is what will give them leverage. Nobody is going to be ok with paying more just because ps3 has a random assortment of useless features.

You're joking right? Are you seriously saying built in WiFi, broader memory card support and 2 generations of full backwards compatibility are useless features?

And on top of that the two things Xbox had going for it last gen in HDD and being more powerful then the PS2 are now shot this coming generation.

 

[JMPovoa]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with built in wifi and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

 

[Ponn]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with built in wifi and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

Uh...cause the console has not been designed with built in WiFi or built in HDD.

 

[JMPovoa]

Are we playing with words now? you know what i meant. Let's say not built in per se, but bundled with the adequate accessories.... (pfff)

 

[FightyF]

Uh...cause the console has not been designed with built in WiFi or built in HDD.

Uh...he said bundle.

bun·dle Audio pronunciation of "bundle" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bndl)
n.

1. A group of objects held together, as by tying or wrapping.
2. Something wrapped or tied up for carrying; a package.
3. Biology. A cluster or strand of closely bound muscle or nerve fibers.
4. Botany. A vascular bundle.
5. Informal.
1. A large amount; a lot: had a bundle of fun at the dance.
2. A large sum of money: made a bundle selling real estate.

Plus, Sony released a slimmer PS2 with a built in network ports. Something you may have missed while hanging out in the cave of ignorance.

 

[cyberheater]

Some of you guys are nuts.

Here's the value proposition. A machine that can play something that looks as good as PGR3 at HD resolutions for $299.99 and getting released in a couple of months is simply amazing. Period. No ifs or buts. It's a technical marvel.

The technology is stunning and you don't think it's good value at that price!

Your either on the crack pipe or taking the piss. Really!!!

Get a grip. Think about what your saying.

 

[JMPovoa]

Some of you guys are nuts.

Here's the value proposition. A machine that can play something that looks as good as PGR3 at HD resolutions for $299.99 and getting released in a couple of months is simply amazing. Period. No ifs or buts. It's a technical marvel.

The technology is stunning and you don't think it's good value at that price!

Your either on the crack pipe or taking the piss. Really!!!

Get a grip. Think about what your saying.

Never mind them. You know aswell as i do that most of them will be secretly enjoying the heck out of this console as soon as it gets out.

 

[JMPovoa]

Ponn01, either your smart mouth ran out of ideas, or you're writing big. (nah, that would be giving a strong argument too much of an importance )

 

[Gattsu25]

It's a close-up of an Argonian's eye

Ok...now that's fucking amazing looking

 

[JMPovoa]

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

Why wouldn't they be able to do all the "cool multimedia stuff" if that's/can all be up to the network? Or isn't/can't it?

 

[fortified_concept]

Some of you guys are nuts.

Here's the value proposition. A machine that can play something that looks as good as PGR3 at HD resolutions for $299.99 and getting released in a couple of months is simply amazing. Period. No ifs or buts. It's a technical marvel.

The technology is stunning and you don't think it's good value at that price!

Your either on the crack pipe or taking the piss. Really!!!

Get a grip. Think about what your saying.

Viral Marketeer Get!

PS. You're repeating yourself.

 

[Ponn]

Uh...he said bundle.



Plus, Sony released a slimmer PS2 with a built in network ports. Something you may have missed while hanging out in the cave of ignorance.

Uh...he said

Xbox 360 with built in wifi

built-in (bltn)
adj.

1. Constructed as part of a larger unit; not detachable: a built-in cabinet.
2. Forming a permanent or essential element or quality: a built-in escape clause.

And yes a slim PS2 was made with in built in network. How many years after the original launch of the PS2 was that again??? A console re-design within a year of launch, yea MS would just love to splinter their market further and piss off the consumers even more.

Don't worry though, i'm not about to start slinging personal insults your way though, won't sink to your level.

 

[JMPovoa]

You are so predictable. (oh and just for jokes sake, i didn't say built in HDD, just the wifi comment )

 

[FightyF]

Uh...he said

built-in (bltn)
adj.

1. Constructed as part of a larger unit; not detachable: a built-in cabinet.
2. Forming a permanent or essential element or quality: a built-in escape clause.

And yes a slim PS2 was made with in built in network. How many years after the original launch of the PS2 was that again??? A console re-design within a year of launch, yea MS would just love to splinter their market further and piss off the consumers even more.

Don't worry though, i'm not about to start slinging personal insults your way though, won't sink to your level.

I addressed both cases. Whether built in or bundled.

I tend to insult trolls. Why? Because I hate trolls.

Check out this one: http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?p=1804699#post1804699

I think you'll agree that my slagging is perfectly fair, I don't cross any boundaries that aren't really related to the topic at hand. Someone says something dumb, I call it dumb. Someone trying to play dumb, I call them dumb. Someone disagrees with me, I don't slag them, unless they say, act, or do something dumb.

 

[Ponn]

I addressed both cases. Whether built in or bundled.

I tend to insult trolls. Why? Because I hate trolls.

Check out this one: http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?p=1804699#post1804699

I think you'll agree that my slagging is perfectly fair, I don't cross any boundaries that aren't really related to the topic at hand. Someone says something dumb, I call it dumb. Someone trying to play dumb, I call them dumb. Someone disagrees with me, I don't slag them, unless they say, act, or do something dumb.

Riiiggght. I had a fair response to Duce22's post that everything in the PS3 besides BRD was useless features. I posted a response questioning the validity of that statement.

This guy who is very obviously trying troll me with his posts above ... says this mish mash of a statement.

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with built in wifi and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

I call him on the statement, then he gets nitpicky and tries to backpeddle and you jump in with a farfetched defense comparison of the PS2 redesigning it's console a good 3 years after launch and say i'm living in a cave of ignorance for not making that "grand" and delusional comparison myself? And you have the balls to try and call someone a troll with all that?

 

[JMPovoa]

This discussion is stupid, and why is it stupid? Because some stupid guy nicknamed Ponn01 tries to evade a simple question by nitpicking (yes you're the one playing dumb here).

Let's start fresh, shall we?

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with a wifi adapter and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

3 posts later and still no answer.

 

[FightyF]

And you have the balls to try and call someone a troll with all that?

Definately, because you started playing with semantics when you knew what he meant. And if you didn't then that says something about your intelligence.

So take your pick, unintelligent or troll. I'm giving you the benefit by choosing the latter.

 

[Striek]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with a wifi adapter and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

3 posts later and still no answer.

Because Microsoft has shown they don't want to piss away money on the Xbox project. And it makes sense for them not to.

Why even bother asking a ridiculous hypothetical? Its not going to happen.

 

[JMPovoa]

Because Microsoft has shown they don't want to piss away money on the Xbox project. And it makes sense for them not to.

Why even bother asking a ridiculous hypothetical? Its not going to happen.

It's as ridiculous as assuming it won't happen. It all depends on alot of stuff. It's not something you can just assume at year's+ distance. It could just be the wifi or just the HDD for all i care.

 

[FightyF]

Because Microsoft has shown they don't want to piss away money on the Xbox project. And it makes sense for them not to.

Why even bother asking a ridiculous hypothetical? Its not going to happen.

It wouldn't be pissing away money. Hardware costs decrease over time, and this is especially true with accessories.

Secondly, MS is not going to bleed themselves when they have no competition, but when they do, it will be worth it to take a hit on hardware (like every other hardware manufacturer).

Look at Nintendo's handling of the GC months ago, when they sold a $112 console at a retail price of $99 Cdn for a while. It was part of a promotion. Promotions cost money.

The more you understand how the economy works, and the videogame industry in general, the less ridiculous this question seems.

 

[Flatbread]

Without. You're hitting $400 at least with X360 including Wifi. I think Bluray + the rest would be a steal for another $100 (Bluray players alone will probably be several hundred dollars.. and how much do you think MS would charge for a HD-DVD peripheral based on their track record so far with X360 pricing?) - arguably it'd be a steal at even higher prices. That's all relative, however - I don't think PS3 will be $500 or more.

PS3 + HDD at $500 would be utterly embarassing for MS. If that sound ridiculous it's only because of the bar MS has set.



Yes, but it already has $99 over X360 with wifi, so I don't think it'll take much.

If ps3 is 500 bucks then FOR ME the core 299 xbox package is a better deal.

Right now the core package is a better deal than the premium package.

wifi out of the box means very little to me. No tripping on or seeing cords, but the added nuisance of batteries. Certainly not worth 50 dollars, same price ok ill take wireless. Wont add to the gaming experience though.

blu what? whats wrong with dvds, please lets get some more time out of these, its only been about 4 years since they started taking over vhs. I dont want to spend more money for added storage space.

HDD whatever, i swear its most important feature was that it wasnt in the ps2 so hardware geeks could point out what seperates the xbox from the ps2. Somehow every major 3rd party was able to get there games running on the ps2 without it. If the games are great without it then thats all i care about.

The rest of the stuff you listed will never be used by me, I would be to busy living life and playing games then to use them.

if ps3 is 500 dollars with all that stuff and they offered one with wired controls, no hdd, dvd player for 300 dollars i would buy that one. Money is more important than the "value" because that value wont be used by me.


How many times have you seen comparisons of xbox's live membership to its total user base on these forums? Its less than 10 percent. Yet no one seems to be bringing that up now because it doesnt fit their arguement. MOST people dont get live, MOST people could give a damn about the HD, MOST people dont know what blu ray is, MOST people do not have High Defintion tvs, MOST people have a limited budget for game consoles.

I would say that the hardcore comprises less than 20 percent of the xbox user base, and for the playstation that number goes significantly down. The premium package is for hardcore nuts who MS knows will pay extra for detachable hd, wireless controllers, downloadable content, xbox live. I can live without any of that and am glad to keep the extra 100 bucks.(truth is i will probably wait until the price comes down another 100 bucks)

I cant believe anyone is buying this 80 - 20 ratio crap, the only reason there saying that is to keep their hardcore support which is who will be lining up to buy it in november. By the following holiday season when the price is down to 199 for the core system it will outnumber sales of 10 to 1 for the premium system. And all you whiners worrying about
splitting the user base, give me a break. Developers will scale the games like they have been increasingly doing to please there audience. Every developer will have HDTV support, xbox live support with downloadable content, and hdd support for features like custom soundtracks. After all, even though its a much smaller percentage of the user base, there is ALOT of money to be made from the hardcore gamers.

If sony only offers a $500 console they are making a huge mistake that will alienate much of their consumers. The most important thing by far are the games, I dont really care about the rest. Im not a big fan of online games, so i dont see any need for the premium package. What i love about the xbox is that ive played more than 80 games since getting my xbox back in 2001, and there are still 50 more games im interested in playing, ill never get to them all. So for my money, ill take the x3shitty and be just as happy with more money in the bank than if i bought the ps3 or the x360 premium package. Sony aint dumb, i wont be at all surprised if they do a similar thing when the ps3 arrives.

 

[Agent X]

What makes you think that Microsoft won't bundle an Xbox 360 with a wifi adapter and with an HDD (hence backwards compatibility) at a more competitive price than Sony's offering when the PS3 launches?

I think Ponn01 explained the reasoning why they might not want to do so with this comment:

A console re-design within a year of launch, yea MS would just love to splinter their market further and piss off the consumers even more.

Considering PS3 will probably (guessing here, but this is a reasonable expectation) hit the market just 6 to 9 months after the X-Box 360 launch, a decision by Microsoft to suddenly bundle a formerly $100 accessory with the unit in such a short amount of time might tick off many early adopters.

Microsoft has apparently already decided that every X-Box 360 system won't have the Wi-Fi, just like they won't all have the HDD either. A better move would be for them to reduce the cost of the Wi-Fi adapter to a more reasonable level, so the people who bought launch systems could at least get a break on that.

Besides perception of value, the other problem with not having Wi-Fi truly built-in (or bundled with every X-Box 360 sold) is that--despite Microsoft's former emphasis on "wireless" about 3 months ago--it makes them seem like they're not really supporting Wi-Fi, when this generation's other major consoles (PlayStation 3, Revolution) and handhelds (PSP, DS) all include it.

We've already heard that the PSP will be able to wirelessly communicate with the PS3, and a similar relationship between the DS and the Revolution. We keep hearing how you can plug your MP3 player into a USB port and play its stored music through the X-Box 360, but let's take it a step further--what if you didn't even have to plug it in? What if you just had it lying on your dresser in your bedroom, and you just decide that you want to listen to the stored music in your living room? Better yet, what if you're lying back in bed with your headphones on, and you decide you want to wirelessly stream the music from your game console to your MP3 player? You could get up later and head into the back yard to do something else, while still listening to the music from your console through your MP3 player. Such applications are definitely appealing. However, if the system doesn't have Wi-Fi included, and the manufacturer makes it expensive to equip it with such capabilities, then its a lot harder to sell it later on when "everyone else is doing it."

 

[Tony HoTT]

It's as ridiculous as assuming it won't happen. It all depends on alot of stuff. It's not something you can just assume at year's+ distance. It could just be the wifi or just the HDD for all i care.

Good god. :lol

 

[imastalker co.]

people doing all this damage control need to realize that the only reason people are pissed off, is because up until the skus were announced, Microsoft claimed non stop that all the stuff in the turbo pack would be standard.

im sure that if they only made one version at $400, everyone would just be bummed out about the price, and not angry about games being developed for a shittier version of the system.

everyones beef is that MS went back on their word about what was going to be standard in the system.

 

[BorkBork]

people doing all this damage control need to realize that the only reason people are pissed off, is because up until the skus were announced, Microsoft claimed non stop that all the stuff in the turbo pack would be standard.

im sure that if they only made one version at $400, everyone would just be bummed out about the price, and not angry about games being developed for a shittier version of the system.

everyones beef is that MS went back on their word about what was going to be standard in the system.

Plus the fact that the accessories that are supposed to be standard are costing a lot more than expected by themselves.

 

[imastalker co.]

in conclusion, pricing on the accessories was just adding insult to injury.

 

[JMPovoa]

I think Ponn01 explained the reasoning why they might not want to do so with this comment:

A console re-design within a year of launch, yea MS would just love to splinter their market further and piss off the consumers even more.[/b]

That was related to having a redesign of the console and that was never what i meant in my original statement. Anyone who read it knows what i meant.

Considering PS3 will probably (guessing here, but this is a reasonable expectation) hit the market just 6 to 9 months after the X-Box 360 launch, a decision by Microsoft to suddenly bundle a formerly $100 accessory with the unit in such a short amount of time might tick off many early adopters.
Microsoft has apparently already decided that every X-Box 360 system won't have the Wi-Fi, just like they won't all have the HDD either. A better move would be for them to reduce the cost of the Wi-Fi adapter to a more reasonable level, so the people who bought launch systems could at least get a break on that.

Besides perception of value, the other problem with not having Wi-Fi truly built-in (or bundled with every X-Box 360 sold) is that--despite Microsoft's former emphasis on "wireless" about 3 months ago--it makes them seem like they're not really supporting Wi-Fi, when this generation's other major consoles (PlayStation 3, Revolution) and handhelds (PSP, DS) all include it.

We've already heard that the PSP will be able to wirelessly communicate with the PS3, and a similar relationship between the DS and the Revolution. We keep hearing how you can plug your MP3 player into a USB port and play its stored music through the X-Box 360, but let's take it a step further--what if you didn't even have to plug it in? What if you just had it lying on your dresser in your bedroom, and you just decide that you want to listen to the stored music in your living room? Better yet, what if you're lying back in bed with your headphones on, and you decide you want to wirelessly stream the music from your game console to your MP3 player? You could get up later and head into the back yard to do something else, while still listening to the music from your console through your MP3 player. Such applications are definitely appealing. However, if the system doesn't have Wi-Fi included, and the manufacturer makes it expensive to equip it with such capabilities, then its a lot harder to sell it later on when "everyone else is doing it."

If there will EVER be a price reduction in peripherals, it might just be those two (Wifi and HDD). And if that happens, it is most likely that we'll see them bundled (seperately or jointly, now that would depend if there were more than one different new SKUs).

I wouldn't know about the 6 to 9 months comment though. That would seem more of a rush product than Microsoft's (and people still comment on Microsoft's product rush to market). It would also mean that unless the console is really expensive (we're talking $500 to $600 expensive) it can't just be that more powerful than Xbox360 (that or Sony really is taking a huge hit per unit), except for the Blu-Ray Drive (the HD movie playback can be a huge plus here).

By not having Wifi from the get go has nothing to do with support for it being there or not. Why else would they sell it? And playing music wirelessly is something that is already supported if you get one of those adapters. That's what's been shown, seen and stated before. I know that what i mean is more on the price barrier, but it is the whole thing with the choice you have to make. Do you realize how many people actually care for that sort of thing? That is why the peripheral is sold separately, because Microsoft doesn't want to throw money and value away and neither does the consumer.

 

[sangreal]

people doing all this damage control need to realize that the only reason people are pissed off, is because up until the skus were announced, Microsoft claimed non stop that all the stuff in the turbo pack would be standard.

im sure that if they only made one version at $400, everyone would just be bummed out about the price, and not angry about games being developed for a shittier version of the system.

everyones beef is that MS went back on their word about what was going to be standard in the system.

Bingo

Unfortunately, if Major Nelson is any indication, Microsoft doesn't understand this. Instead they keep trying to convince me what an amazing value the premium pack. Thats great, but very few people have a problem with the premium pack. Its the worthless retard pack and everything it represents that is the problem.

 

[kaching]

I'm well aware, but this is what X360 will be up against - comparisons will be made, these are its peers. What do you think customers will be comparing to?

Depends on the customer and what they're most interested in - many could end up comparing it to the heavily discounted current gen consoles, for example. For any who do compare against the PS3 and Rev, they won't be able to make a complete comparison when X360 arrives. Pricing will likely be an unknown and some of the features that the PS3 or Rev are supposed to have over the X360 may either not matter to the customer in question or may not be of much immediate benefit. 2 Examples: 1) The premium that MS is putting on Wifi support as compared to Sony and Rev may not matter to someone who plans to put the console(s) on a wired network. 2) Blu-ray in PS3 - in all likelihood initial PS3 game software will still be distributed on DVD media and there won't be a large, diverse library of HD movies on BD to dig into, blunting the intial value of having Blu-ray in the PS3.

The point remains, as a value proposition, X360 is not what Xbox was scaled to late 2005.

Probably not, but the pricing of the core pack is still going to see the hardware selling at a loss. It's not as if MS has completely abandoned subsidized pricing of console hardware and will now be making a profit on every X360 sold, right from the very first. Given that, I don't really see how the difference between the expected value and the delivered value can objectively portrayed as a large one.

 

[gofreak]

If ps3 is 500 bucks then FOR ME the core 299 xbox package is a better deal.

You must have missed the bit where we discussed an objective evaluation of value. Fair enough if you find the rest useless, I for one certainly don't And I don't think the rest will be ignored by (wise) customers.

The issue of numbers and value is distinct..I completely see how $500 as an entry point is very expensive for most people. I'm simply saying that relative to the X360 pricing, it'd still offering much more (how you react to that offer is your own business). Do I think PS3 entry point will be $500? No. Pare it back to something more likely and the value just gets higher.

I wouldn't know about the 6 to 9 months comment though. That would seem more of a rush product than Microsoft's (and people still comment on Microsoft's product rush to market).

What?

Sony started working on PS3 before Xbox and GC was even on the shelves. There'll be 6 years between PS2 and PS3 with a Spring 06 launch. That gap is actually a little more than the one between PS and PS2.

Probably not, but the pricing of the core pack is still going to see the hardware selling at a loss. It's not as if MS has completely abandoned subsidized pricing of console hardware and will now be making a profit on every X360 sold, right from the very first.

I think it'd be very interesting to see the figures for that, to be honest, because I have some doubts. Remember also that your minimum entry price is actually $340 - consider the margins on the memory card and that one game you'll have to buy too.

Given that, I don't really see how the difference between the expected value and the delivered value can objectively portrayed as a large one.

The expected value was HDD + wireless at around $300. There is a large gap there. And there is a large gap between Xbox "scaled" to 2005 and X360 core.

 

[u_neek]

From Eurogamers round-up:

The main package announced for £279.99 was a gift; the cheaper package of the console and a pad for a staggering £209.99 is sure to attract plenty of interest too.

From the current Gamespot poll:

-The bare-bones Core System for $299. I'm rich, but not that rich.
-The jam-packed edition for $399. And Cristal for my toilet water.
-A magical money tree so that I can afford this stuff.

 

[JMPovoa]

What?

Sony started working on PS3 before Xbox and GC was even on the shelves. There'll be 6 years between PS2 and PS3 with a Spring 06 launch. That gap is actually a little more than the one between PS and PS2.

Yet, the number of distributed devkits is scarce and very expensive to produce, from what has been known. What games will make launch in 6 / 9 months from now?

 

[disabledHeliocentric]

I don't beleive anybody who says they will skip this because of the pricing structure. You were not going to buy it to begin with if that's the case. :lol

This could lead to some confusion, perhaps later complications, and under utilization of the HD, though.