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Avengers Endgame (SPOILER THREAD)

Grinchy

Banned
Just got back from seeing it. I enjoyed it quite a bit, despite any little nitpicks I might have. I actually really liked the time travel stuff. I was definitely happy with how little Captain Marvel was in it. Though, having not seen her movie, I don't understand her powers.

When Tony was stranded out in space, didn't he say he was like 1000 light years away from home? How could Captain Marvel physically move his ship through space to get him home so quickly? Can she create wormholes? Did she power the ship up and then he used the wormhole jumping mechanism and then she just grabbed on to it and flew it down to the Earth surface for no reason? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

Also that girl power scene where all the women somehow met up at the same point in the battlefield just so the camera could pan around them was so fucking stupid.
 
So I just watched Endgame yesterday and I feel like writing down my impressions. Overall I enjoyed it a lot but I'm disgruntled about some choices. Forgive me if I beat dead horses along the way.


The first act is awesome. It's slow but none of the scenes felt like they were unnecessary. If anything I would have loved it if they explored the fallout of the snap even further. I really felt for Tony and Natasha. His bond with his daughter was conveyed in a very concise yet compelling way. Fat Thor was funny and it makes sense for him to become depressed after failing to kill Thanos; I guess the story needed a source of comic relief. With such a large audience you have to drop some comedy here and there to keep them engaged, especially those who didn't follow the entirety of the MCU and aren't as invested in the characters. However, we got no explanation for why Hawkeye was absent during IW. Did I miss something? His reintroduction as Ronin was cool as hell but for the rest of the film, he feels like the exact same character that we know. It's like they built up the mystery around him but defused it afterward. Why did he even get a tattoo? About Captain Marvel, I'm gonna be blunt and say she is a boring character and her smug, know-it-all, attitude is unbecoming of a heroine. It could have made sense if it's part of a character arc that leads her to become a more well-rounded person, but there's no point to be made wit her personality: she's like that and that's it. She has no emotional range. I'm glad she didn't take much screentime. Natasha, Gamora, and Nebula are much, much more interesting in comparison.


The second act is fine. It moves the plot where it needs to be. I didn't care for whether the time travel shenanigans make sense or not--pretty sure they don't. The short extra scenes showing the aftermath of Avengers 1 were nice. The callback to the elevator scene in Winter Soldier was well-thought, I was expecting Cap to say "Does anyone want to get out?". The "Hail Hydra" is a cool nod to the comics as well. Cap stumbling upon Cap and Tony meeting his father is a bit too convenient to prevent the mission from going too smoothly, but I get that writing 101 requires you to put obstacles for your characters. Going back further in time to make up for a blunder was a great idea. That exchange between Tony and Steve "Do you trust me?" "I do" is one of my favorite moments in the film. His goodbye scene with his father got me as well. Also, I should give a shout out to Rhodey/Cheadle for being really funny. Nebula grew on me as well. Natasha's demise makes sense for her character and the whole dialogue with Hawkeye is well written. But what the fuck is Red Skull doing on that planet? He got there through a portal, okay, but why roleplay death?


Then comes the third act. The Tony/Cap/Thor tag team vs Thanos was damn good to watch, except that Iron Man is a bit underutilized. But still one of the best fights in the MCU for sure. The reveal of Cap holding Mjolnir was perfectly shot, and the choreography between shield and hammer is on-point. Seeing the shield break under Thanos' brutal attacks is poignant considering how many fights it survived before. Definitely a highlight of the film and second only to the Avengers Assemble moment, which gave me huge and lasting goosebumps. It's EXACTLY what I thought the finale should be like: an all-out war with the entire cast taking part. An incredible payoff to a decade of movies. That said, characters like Hulk and Bucky are severely underutilized. On the other hand, Rescue and Giant-Man punching a Leviathan and stomping grunts in the face are very satisfying. The all-female shot is cringy but thankfully it lasts only for a moment.

Now, Iron Man's death and funeral are definitely poignant. Cap finally reuniting with the love of his life is a clever way to bring closure to his character. I get that. I also understand that maybe the actors want to move on to other projects.
But will the MCU sustain its popularity with these two iconic characters gone for good? I doubt it. Standalone films will do just fine, but if they plan for a future Avengers movie, will the audience be as invested? Personally, I won't be.

And Thor joining Quill's crew to go on adventures is disappointing; how cowardly of him to leave his people when they need him just because he doesn't feel like bearing that responsibility. I understand that Valkyrie is the only person left who can lead them, but what leadership abilities did she display before? She's mostly a warrior. Thor delivering a bit of wordplay to justify his decision is not convincing for me. Is that the right conclusion for a hero and heir to a throne? What if he comes back and finds his people slaughtered down to the last person by some new cosmic threat? Wouldn't he feel guilty and get depressed again? I'm frustrated by this choice. It also undermines the point of Fat Thor. I thought it was the "belly of the whale" moment in the hero's journey that is meant to precede the growth towards the character's better self. I don't think that fleeing your responsibilities is the best payoff for Thor's character nor it is a good role model for audiences.

And as for Sam taking the shield, can he become an inspiring figure like Steve when the situation requires it? Is he going to give up his fighting style and learn how to handle the shield? I don't think they needed to take that idea from the comics and bring it to the film. Speaking of which, why bring up that joke about America's ass not once but twice? Is this how they want the American audience to think of their nation--as a joke?

Overall Endgame was solid. Infinity War is still the better film of the two for me as it does everything right. I have to commend Endgame for not spoiling its best moments in the trailers and TV spots, while still building up mad hype.
 
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pimentel1

Banned
Guys, what happened to Uhura, doh, I mean, the green daughter of Thanos, why isn't she shown at the end of the movie?

She’s shown on Quill’s screen as they, along with Fat Thor, search for her. It implies she ran away during the big fight.
 
Guys, what happened to Uhura, doh, I mean, the green daughter of Thanos, why isn't she shown at the end of the movie?

I am thinking what if she got dusted off with others? Iron Man didn't know that 2014 Gamora was good and helping them. He snapped and probably wished Thanos and his entire 2014 army to disappear. Gamora was also part of that army. I know this would not be the case and she will be an important part of GotG3 but this thought gave me a chuckle.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Gamora is gone, she did run away. Thats what the searching screen is for in that scene.

This Gamora doesn't "love" Quill like the old Gamora and isn't a part of the GOTG. When she saw Quill she was like "this is the one?" and Nebula made a funny joke about it being between Quill and a tree.

GOTG 3 is probably going to be about the search for Gamora and Quill/Gamora rebuilding their relationship.
 

Kadayi

Banned
GOTG 3 is probably going to be about the search for Gamora and Quill/Gamora rebuilding their relationship.

Yeah, but the thing is, they don't have a relationship because that's not the Gamora he knew. Him going off after new Gamora is kind of like those crazy people who get their pets cloned. Sure they may look the same, but they're a different creature. The only scenario I could see working is if he manages to get original Gamoras soul out of the Soul stone/Gem and maybe use new Gamora as the host, but that's kind of creepy also.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Yeah, but the thing is, they don't have a relationship because that's not the Gamora he knew. Him going off after new Gamora is kind of like those crazy people who get their pets cloned. Sure they may look the same, but they're a different creature. The only scenario I could see working is if he manages to get original Gamoras soul out of the Soul stone/Gem and maybe use new Gamora as the host, but that's kind of creepy also.
There is no more Soul Stone. Cap took them back to their original timeline/realities. In the prime timeline, the infinity stones don't exist anymore because Thanos destroyed them.
 

Kadayi

Banned
There is no more Soul Stone. Cap took them back to their original timeline/realities. In the prime timeline, the infinity stones don't exist anymore because Thanos destroyed them.

Hmm, good point. However, in GoTG 2 they did hint at Adam Warlock appearing as the big bad so mayhap it might re-emerge that way. :unsure:
 
Where did the old Steve Rogers get the new shield from? I thought the vibranium alloy it was made of was one of a kind and there were no other like it one earth. Did he steal it from some other timeline and now there is one Captain America who has to do without his shield?
 

pramod

Banned
My guess is when Thanos destroyed the Soul Stone it actually freed the trapped souls. That means Gamora is out there somewhere, but maybe in a different body.
The 2014 Gamora was dusted along with all of Thanos' men.
 
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That's true, but at the same time thanos fights captain marvel after he fights thor, cap, and iron man. I know thanos is a beast, but if he was all powerful and never showed any signs of getting tired, I doubt he would be receiving the same criticism that captain marvel is receiving for being OP. She essentially swooped in at full strength and took thanos by surprise the same way thor did, but no one whined about that.

I whined about that. The difference with Thor is we have seen him getting his ass whupped in Thor, Thor 2, Ragnarok, Avengers, IW, Endgame. He had to get Stormbreaker and catch Thanos by surprise to do what he did. Captain Marvel is like that all the time, so for her it's only Tuesday.

We'll see what's gonna happen, but right now I don't like OP she is. And no weakness.
 

Pejo

Member

Great write-up. I agree with almost all of this.

The one diverging viewpoint we have is that I was immensely disappointed by the time travel angle. Deus Ex Machina at the highest level, and it makes everything that happens after it feel cheap and unearned. I hate time travel in almost all of fiction because it totally removes any consequence from the story. They played it off in this movie with that BS conversation between Hulk (whose entire point as a character was completely ruined by this movie) and the Ancient One. Didn't matter though, as long as they could get more Pym Particles, why not just go back and fix everything? Why can't tony synthesize Pym particles to begin with? It was just really bullshit for me, personally.
 

FireFly

Member
Didn't matter though, as long as they could get more Pym Particles, why not just go back and fix everything?
Going back in time doesn't allow them to change anything that happened in their timeline. That's why they could only bring those that were snapped back into the present, and couldn't prevent the snap from happening in the first place.
 

Pejo

Member
Going back in time doesn't allow them to change anything that happened in their timeline. That's why they could only bring those that were snapped back into the present, and couldn't prevent the snap from happening in the first place.
But it does pretty much invalidate any character dying, as in Gamora's case. I get what you're saying, but it just cheapens the whole story and I really wish they'd have found a different way to solve the snap than time travel. Interestingly enough, they didn't pigeonhole themselves into time travel until the first half hour of this film, so they could have easily gone with another route.
 

FireFly

Member
True but it also allowed them to kill Thanos in the first 30 minutes of the film, and ultimately defeat him in a way that didn't rely on his own incompetence (him leaving the stones lying around). It also allowed them to revisit and pay homage to past scenes, and they are already using the idea of the multiverse in Homecoming to set up the new villain. I imagine they will introduce the new Fox characters in a similar way. Also the new Disney TV shows may explore some of the timelines created in Endgame. So it's not just a cheap trick to reverse character deaths. (And at least we can say that the Gamora Quill loved is still dead)
 

Kadayi

Banned
Where did the old Steve Rogers get the new shield from? I thought the vibranium alloy it was made of was one of a kind and there were no other like it one earth. Did he steal it from some other timeline and now there is one Captain America who has to do without his shield?

Isn't Vibranium from Wakanda and they've got loads of it?
 
Isn't Vibranium from Wakanda and they've got loads of it?

That is pure vibranium. Cap's shield was made from a special vibranium alloy in the comics. Not sure what they said in the movies. I guess we have to just assume that Cap got in touch with Shuri and got one made specially.
 
I was forced to watch this movie twice, and it sucks ass. The final battle isn't even that good on rewatch (it saves the movie the first time, but the posing gets old). This is a one and done movie, and half of it is boring as fuck.
 
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pramod

Banned
My guess is when Thanos destroyed the Soul Stone it actually freed the trapped souls. That means Gamora is out there somewhere, but maybe in a different body.
The 2014 Gamora was dusted along with all of Thanos' men.

Replying to my own post...
I mean if 2014 Gamora wasn't dusted after the final battle, the first thing Quill would do is grab her and try to restart the relationship. Why would he let her leave? I mean even if she wanted to sneak off after the battle, how would she do it? Everything belonging to Thanos was destroyed.
 

pimentel1

Banned
Replying to my own post...
I mean if 2014 Gamora wasn't dusted after the final battle, the first thing Quill would do is grab her and try to restart the relationship. Why would he let her leave? I mean even if she wanted to sneak off after the battle, how would she do it? Everything belonging to Thanos was destroyed.

Grabbed the pegasus Valkyrie got knocked off of? Another thought: Quill never made it to earth until Endgame. Even in Infinity War he was on other planets and space. GOTG3 would be a good time for him to explore the planet he had not been on since childhood.
 
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Grinchy

Banned
I was forced to watch this movie twice, and it sucks ass. The final battle isn't even that good on rewatch (it saves the movie the first time, but the posing gets old). This is a one and done movie, and half of it is boring as fuck.
That sums up almost every Avengers movie for me. I go see it at the theater and like it, I watch it at home months later and think it's trash. Though, I did still mostly enjoy Infinity War the 2nd time.
 

BlackTron

Member
I can understand people's gripes with Endgame. On second viewing, it really is astonishing how little action there is for most of the movie.

Had I watched Infinity War when it came out, I can see that film "settling" over a few years and building expectations for Endgame. However, I watched Infinity War and then Dr. Strange mere days before going to see Endgame.

For me it was easier to simply see Endgame as "Part II". Not really its own movie, and it isn't. It's just a long ass ending to Infinity War that has the laborious job of converging (and finishing the arc of) multiple characters.

If you look at IW and EG as separate films, IW wins. But they aren't really. It's one long story split into two parts. Taken as a whole, without picking apart one vs. the other, I think it's outstanding.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
That sums up almost every Avengers movie for me. I go see it at the theater and like it, I watch it at home months later and think it's trash. Though, I did still mostly enjoy Infinity War the 2nd time.

It's almost the opposite for me.
Im usually underwhelmed on first viewing but then enjoy it more second time (especially the action sequences as too much CGI on a big cinema screen is sometimes hard to follow).

I do def agree that most Marvel films don't hold up to multiple repeat viewings though. Will be interesting to see how these films are viewed in 10 years.
 
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Azzurri

Member
I was not a fan of Sam being Captain America, I know in the comics he does so, but so does Bucky Barnes and would have prefered him since he is basically another Super Soldier. I like Sam, but not as Captain.
 
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Doom85

Member
I was not a fan of Sam being Captain America, I know in the comics he does so, but so does Bucky Barnes and would have prefered him since he is basically another Super Soldier. I like Sam, but not as Captain.

Sam just feels more like he could be giving out orders. I never got that from Bucky. Also, Sam has actually interacted with most of the Avengers whereas most of Bucky's dialogue was just between him and Steve. Sam feels like the natural choice to become Cap. It's not about who's stronger (because by that argument, Thor, Carol, and possibly T'Challa outrank them both) but who's more fit to lead. When Tony said Steve didn't deserve the shield, he wasn't talking about how strong he was after all (which would be pretty funny since Steve just defeated him).
 

Azzurri

Member
Sam just feels more like he could be giving out orders. I never got that from Bucky. Also, Sam has actually interacted with most of the Avengers whereas most of Bucky's dialogue was just between him and Steve. Sam feels like the natural choice to become Cap. It's not about who's stronger (because by that argument, Thor, Carol, and possibly T'Challa outrank them both) but who's more fit to lead. When Tony said Steve didn't deserve the shield, he wasn't talking about how strong he was after all (which would be pretty funny since Steve just defeated him).

Yea, Sam is more of a leader than Bucky. Bucky is like your silent strong dude, not the leader type. It's probably because The Winter Soldier is my favorite MCU movie and like Bucky LOL. Also, Captain America is probably my favorite Marvel hero.
 
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Kenpachii

Member
Watched it.

Honestly should have cut it to 1,5 hours . Most of it just felt like padding for fan service.

Incredible slow start to the point i just fell asleep almost, the time traveling had my eyes rolling to the back of my head what a cop out. Then they finally moved forwards, again nice fan service. Sadly not that great. The last battle was great. Also ending could be emotional for people that cared sadly i am not one of them, it also made zero sense they wouldn't just again travel back in time and save again everybody that got killed.

That's what you get when you start time travel bullshit.

That wonder woman acting was a bit try hard but her character made sense and was interesting. Actress was dogshit tho.

Pretty shit movie. Probably won't ever rewatch it.
 
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kunonabi

Member
Nothing about Sam in the mcu screams leader. His whole schtick in the films has been to just blindly follow Captain America no matter what. The Shield just shouldn't have been passed to anybody.

Honestly Endgame doesnt feel at all like a natural continuation to IW to me. The tone is all over the place, the script is incredibly unwieldy compared to the tightness of IW, and so much of what IW setups is either ignored or given the most flippant and dismissive of resolutions. For two movies with the same creative teams and filmed back to back it feels surprisingly like a huge shakeup occurred in the background between the two parts.
 
Yeah, but the thing is, they don't have a relationship because that's not the Gamora he knew. Him going off after new Gamora is kind of like those crazy people who get their pets cloned. Sure they may look the same, but they're a different creature. The only scenario I could see working is if he manages to get original Gamoras soul out of the Soul stone/Gem and maybe use new Gamora as the host, but that's kind of creepy also.

Same could be said about cap and peggy. This gamora is supposed to be as much gamora as the other, barring the memories, akin to amnesia.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
The issue with Sam is they foreshadowed Bucky becoming Cap that its a let down.

I mean anyone who saw Winter Soldier had that moment where Bucky picks up the shield and it was like okay 3 or 4 movies from now Bucky will take over.
 

Pejo

Member
The issue with Sam is they foreshadowed Bucky becoming Cap that its a let down.

I mean anyone who saw Winter Soldier had that moment where Bucky picks up the shield and it was like okay 3 or 4 movies from now Bucky will take over.
While I agree with you, I honestly don't feel like either character has the charisma to be the next Cap (as written in the MCU at least).
 

cryptoadam

Banned
While I agree with you, I honestly don't feel like either character has the charisma to be the next Cap (as written in the MCU at least).

No one will be able to match Evans, he just basically made the role. No one has been able to take the mantel from Christopher Reeves for Superman, and its going to be the same with Cap.

"Captain America" will probably take a back seat now because like you said I don't see either guy being able to carry a movie on their own as the star.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
What happened to Bucky becoming the White Wolf? I thought it'd be cool to see him taking on that name. He's def not going to want to be known as the Winter Soldier surely?
 

sol_bad

Member
The issue with Sam is they foreshadowed Bucky becoming Cap that its a let down.

I mean anyone who saw Winter Soldier had that moment where Bucky picks up the shield and it was like okay 3 or 4 movies from now Bucky will take over.

When did they foreshadow Bucky being Cap? Him picking up the shield to fight Cap isn't foreshadowing. If he picked it up to do something heroic, maybe.

Using it along side Cap in Civil War against Iron Man isn't heroic either.
 

Doom85

Member
When did they foreshadow Bucky being Cap? Him picking up the shield to fight Cap isn't foreshadowing. If he picked it up to do something heroic, maybe.

Using it along side Cap in Civil War against Iron Man isn't heroic either.

I agree, that's a stretch. By that logic Natasha has just as much claim to becoming Cap (if she were alive) since she picked it up in Age of Ultron.

Seriously, the existing Avengers have had more interaction with Sam, it'll just feel more natural to see him giving orders than Bucky. I don't even see Bucky giving orders, he's just not the type at least not in the MCU.

And honestly, let's be real, the role of leadership is a bit of a burden. Why saddle Bucky with that, the guy's been through hell already. Not saying Sam's life has been totally peachy but I think he's in a better mental state to handle it. Let Bucky relax a bit and just follow others' leads.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Well to me it was foreshadowing because Bucky does become Cap in the comics.

Ok maybe not foreshadowing, a nod to the audience is a better term? In the comics Bucky eventually takes up the mantle and to me in WS when Bucky has the shield it was a nod to the comics and that Bucky eventually becomes Cap.

So it wasn't really foreshadowing, but it was a hint to those who knew more about the characters and comics.
 

Doom85

Member
Except that was due to Steve "dying". In the comics, Sam becomes Cap when Steve becomes an old man (although to different reasons than the movie version).

If Steve had "died" in Civil War, then you would have a point but that didn't happen. And thank god, the less they followed that garbage comic, the better. Honestly, it's crazy how they took some of Mark Millar's flawed work and made it better in the movies (Civil War, Logan, Kick-Ass 1 and 2). I know some like him but to me he just comes off as a teenager throwing in whatever he thinks is dark and intense without any substance to it.
 

Kadayi

Banned
Same could be said about cap and peggy. This gamora is supposed to be as much gamora as the other, barring the memories, akin to amnesia.

Peggy knows Captain though in the past. Gamora doesn't know quill at all.
 

sol_bad

Member
Yeah, why have character driven drama and plot when you can have more action?

Disney needs to dump these Russo hacks and get Micheal Bay.

Who needs story when you have SPLOSIONS!

It's quite amazing really. People complain when there is too much action and then people complain when there is too much characterization, drama and plot development.

True, but if we are saying gamora is not gamora than peggy is not peggy. Knowing would make it easier, but people can get to know each other.

The situations are different.
Gamora has come to the future, she doesn't know any of the GOTG and has no relationship with any of them. There is a 9 year gap in the time line.
Steve is travelling back to the past, most likely back to the point where his plane crashed in the 1940's. In that instance Peggy is the exact same person, it's Steve that has changed but Peggy obviously still accepted him as he was.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
It's quite amazing really. People complain when there is too much action and then people complain when there is too much characterization, drama and plot development.
Those usually aren't the same people. Can't please everyone in a large enough sample size.
 

VAL0R

Banned
Why not just travel to 100 different Earths from 100 different timelines and get 100X the Avengers to fight Thanos? ("Hey AvengersX100, we'll all team up and go through all hundred timelines, killing Thanos in each one together OK? OK!") Or isn't there a possible world in the infinite multiverse where Thanos is a nice guy? Maybe move everyone to that one?

Edit: Captain America died? No problem, we'll get the multiverse to fart another one out from Earth 42. We may even find a timeline where Captain Marvel isn't completely insufferable!
 
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