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[sonycowboy]

Scary big brother stuff, but perhaps game companies would use Blu-Ray over DVD just because of piracy issues? In the end, piracy always wins out, of course.

It also gives us more insight as to what Fox was talking about regarding their decision to go w/ Blu-Ray

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050809/95624.html?.v=1

Blu-ray Disc Association Adopts Comprehensive Content Management System
Tuesday August 9, 10:00 am ET
AACS, BD+ Renewability Technology and ROM Mark Mass Piracy Prevention Offer the Most Extensive, Flexible Content Protection Available

HOLLYWOOD, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 9, 2005--In a move to protect against illegal copying and large scale piracy while leaving consumers the flexibility to manage and enjoy copies of their legally purchased content, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has adopted the most comprehensive content management system ever employed on an optical disc format.

The Blu-ray content management system includes three primary components: Advanced Access Content System (AACS), "BD+", a Blu-ray-specific enhancement for content protection renewability, and ROM Mark, a measure unique to Blu-ray Disc to guard against mass production piracy or the mass duplication and sale of unauthorized copies of pre-recorded media.

"Content protection is a critical issue for next-generation media distribution," said IDC's Joshua Martin, Associate Research Analyst, Consumer Markets. "Finalizing the content protection scheme is critical for the launch of blue laser optical disc technology, and new protection schemes should allow for increased consumer flexibility while better protecting prerecorded content compared to current DVD technology."

The foundation of the Blu-ray content management system, AACS(1), is a state of the art content management system that is many times more powerful than that used in DVD. Additionally, AACS enables new consumer usage models around network functionality and internet connectivity including managing copies, in an authorized and secure manner.

In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc.

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.

"The level of unauthorized copying and industrial piracy associated with DVD not only jeopardizes studios and other content creators, but also results in increased costs and limited flexibility for consumers," said Maureen Weber, General Manager, of Hewlett Packard's Optical Storage Solutions. "It is good news for everyone that the BDA has adopted a series of measures that gets it right for the next disc format."

 

[Diablos]

Give programmers a good year or so, they'll crack it.

 

[bitwise]

pirate proof is a bold statement.

 

[sonycowboy]

pirate proof is a bold statement.

Gotta keep it on topic

 

[u_neek]

360 wins

 

[dark10x]

pirate proof is a bold statement.

I can be done...to a degree.

Look at StarForce on the PC. An annoying piece of software for legit users, but it has prevented piracy of many games. While it has been cracked in the past, it usually takes quite a long time to do so AND hasn't actually been done for any of the newer versions of SF...

That's really the problem with copy protection these days. In order to really protect the content, they almost ALWAYS inconvenience legitimate consumers. Even then, pirates often find a way around those protections, so you are left with something that does nothing more than cause problems for people who legally purchased the product.

 

[sasimirobot]

Look at GameCube, it wasnt really cracked wide open (large scale piracy) until earlier this year. Piracy cant be stopped but it sure as hell can be slowed down to a crawl.

 

[Chrono]

360 wins

heh it would be weird/sad if 360 wins the console war because people can pirate 360 games and get them cheaper than PS3's.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

That's really the problem with copy protection these days. In order to really protect the content, they almost ALWAYS inconvenience legitimate consumers.

*cough* Steam *cough*

Fuck Valve.

 

[impirius]

Yeah, that's nice and all, but will it be military-grade?

 

[OniShiro]

Am I the only who thinks that if the PS3 is pirate proof it won't sell nearly as much as the PS2 did?

 

[Blimblim]

Yeah, that's nice and all, but will it be military-grade?

The encryption itself has never been cracked. But since there were dozens of way to manage to go around the encryption...

 

[sonycowboy]

Am I the only who thinks that if the PS3 is pirate proof it won't sell nearly as much as the PS2 did?

Yes. It's a stupid ass argument and always has been.

 

[Ruzbeh]

Give programmers a good day or so, they'll crack it.

Fixed.

 

[Tain]

PS3 games pirate proof?

No.

That's all there is to it.

 

[digitalKiva]

If Sony makes thier media pirate proof they are gonna lose huge on console sales... they know that.. so they won't.

 

[Shuzo]

nothing is pirate proof

 

[Wario64]

hello x360

 

[bycha]

If Sony makes thier media pirate proof they are gonna lose huge on console sales... they know that.. so they won't.

Kinda irrational logic. Console-holder gets real money only from sales of software.

 

[jett]

Nothing is pirate proof.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory PC version; still not cracked to this date and the game has been out for at least four months....

 

[sonycowboy]

Kinda irrational logic. Console-holder gets real money only from sales of software.

That and software publishers make NO money from pirated software. I've never bought the argument that piracy has helped the playstation. It hurts both Sony and publishers far more than it helps, it's just been a fact of life, that they've never been able to get around. Not that I expect this new technology to be any different, but if it makes it any more difficult at all.

Hell, they could just spread the data w/ fillers across a Blu-Ray disc, which could require piraters to copy using BD-ROM discs, which will be pricy at first and/or require the internet piraters to swallow a 25-50GB download if they want to get the game. Both could at least slow the rate of piracy.

 

[deadhorse32]

Kinda irrational logic. Console-holder gets real money only from sales of software.

Pirates doesn't warez every games. They buy stuff that are worthwhile for them
Pirates buy hardware -> increasing the userbase -> more software support -> more software sales

And yes it will hurt them if there is no way to play pirated softwares

If the PS3 is really pirate proof and is more expensive than the 360. I say MS take 40/50% of Europe next-gen.

 

[Ghost]

hello x360

:lol

My thoughts exactly.

 

[jett]

hello x360

My thoughts exactly

Goddamn buttpirates. Deth Togo am crying.

 

[bee]

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory PC version; still not cracked to this date and the game has been out for at least four months....

everything can be copied,ps3 will be no different,splinter cell chaos theory actually has been copied u just need a usb dvd drive to make it work,and the reason for starforces success is the ability to keep upgrading its protection everytime one of their games gets cracked,will ps3 games have this ability?incidently starforce is about to be cracked big time anyway.....

 

[Diablos]

Fixed.

:lol

 

[bycha]

That and software publishers make NO money from pirated software. I've never bought the argument that piracy has helped the playstation. It hurts both Sony and publishers far more than it helps, it's just been a fact of life, that they've never been able to get around. Not that I expect this new technology to be any different, but if it makes it any more difficult at all.

Hell, they could just spread the data w/ fillers across a Blu-Ray disc, which could require piraters to copy using BD-ROM discs, which will be pricy at first and/or require the internet piraters to swallow a 25-50GB download if they want to get the game. Both could at least slow the rate of piracy.

Yes, I feel like it will slow down pirates quite a bit. I think BR-disks will cost A LOT for at least 4 year. At least. And if it's double-sided Br -- forget about it.


They could use fillers, but I think there is more simple solution -- not compressing audio. That can fill double-sided BR easily.

 

[dark10x]

They could use fillers, but I think there is simplier solution -- not compressing audio. That can fill double-sided BR easily.

Yeah, dummy data rarely stops anyone. However, using loads of uncompressed audio could really fill up the disc...

 

[callous]

They could use fillers, but I think there is simplier solution -- not compressing audio. That can fill double-sided BR easily.

Crackers could just compress it. Just like they did with video on DC and PS2.

 

[dark10x]

Crackers could just compress it. Just like they did with video on DC and PS2.

They didn't compress it, though. They down sampled it. Big difference.

 

[sonycowboy]

everything can be copied,ps3 will be no different,splinter cell chaos theory actually has been copied u just need a usb dvd drive to make it work,and the reason for starforces success is the ability to keep upgrading its protection everytime one of their games gets cracked,will ps3 games have this ability?incidently starforce is about to be cracked big time anyway.....

Did you read the initial post?

In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc.

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.

Yes, I feel like it will slow down pirates quite a bit. I think BR-disks will cost A LOT for at least 4 year.


They could use fillers, but I think there is simplier solution -- not compressing audio. That can fill double-sided BR easily.

That would increase load times, not a good idea.

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

hmm. people will be trying their hardest to crack ps3...imagine ps3's key (s) compromised and millions of owners having their machine's key revoked...

microsoft had reqs out for "content protection" experienced engineers a while back. has there been any mention of what they are gonna try with 360?

this gen dc, ps2, and xbox may as well have been open as easy as it was to run unsigned cod/copiese on them....i know the gamecube has been exploited but afaik gc is a real pain in the butt as far as that sort of thing goes.

personally i think there has to be a sweet spot theres enough incentive added for buying the actual software/content (stuff other than the junk on the actual media) that people wouldnt even consider pirating because they dont wanna miss out on that value added stuff..

 

[callous]

They didn't compress it, though. They down sampled it. Big difference.

Whatever you say! Make it smaller.

 

[Scrow]

nintendo mastered pirate proof games with the gamecube. create a console and games that no one wants to play and it doesn't get pirated.

 

[Slayven]

There will eb a way, it might not be pretty or practical for joe sixpack but people looking to get over always finds a way. Plus saying it is pirate proof like throwing raw meat in a shark tank.

 

[dark10x]

Whatever you say! Make it smaller.

Well, compressed audio can still sound very good. I mean, MP3 is a form of compression.

While it certainly won't stop them from doing it, down sampling the audio is entirely different. They would be dropping everything down to low sample rates (like 11 Khz or something), which would really ruin the audio portion of the game. I doubt those pirates would even truly CARE about the actual game, though, so it won't really deter them. However, for those considering pirating games, a major sacrifice would certainly be a turn-off and perhaps convince them to buy instead.

 

[Slayven]

nintendo mastered pirate proof games with the gamecube. create a console and games that no one wants to play and it doesn't get pirated.

Yeah but a lot less effective then the virutal boy protection.

 

[bycha]

That would increase load times, not a good idea.

Err... load times? Music will just play from the drive separately.

Crackers could just compress it. Just like they did with video on DC and PS2.

Again, it's more problems for them.


By the way, I bought SC: CT only because it couldn't be pirated ) Game was a disappointment though.

 

[Hellraizah]

It may not be pirate proof, but if they can manage to create a console where you can pirate stuff but it's a fucking pain in the ass (see GameCube), they could at least lower the total number of pirated consoles.

 

[deadhorse32]

The BDA also adopted "BD+", a Blu-ray Disc specific programmable renewability enhancement that gives content providers an additional means to respond to organized attacks on the security system by allowing dynamic updates of compromised code. With these enhancements, content providers have a number of methods to choose from to combat hacks on Blu-ray players. Moreover, BD+ affects only players that have been attacked, as opposed to those that are vulnerable but haven't been attacked and therefore continue to operate properly.

PS3 is gonna "phone home" each time I want to play a game/movie !!!

 

[poppin fresh]

Can someone update me on the format war with blu-ray? I have ignored it for ages but recently my brother informed me the japanese consumer trade office stepped in and made all the big publishers decide on ONE format between blu-ray and HD-DVD since they wanted to avoid a beta Vs. VHS war again.

Any links on this stuff and what the final conclusions have been?

x360 is just regular format DVD now?

 

[VictimOfGrief]

nothing is pirate proof. Even arcade boards are hacked and dumped.

Blu-Ray is just another medium that people will crack somehow, somewhere. I find it funny that companies invest billions of dollars into security and protection of their content because honestly, if it can be cracked by a 12 yr old from Sweden, that tells you that the money really isn't worth it. :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

how is the blu-ray protection any different from the psx/ps2/dvd movie copy protection sector? all are unreadable by standard drives...

and if someone hacks their blu-ray player, and the 'dynamic code' of the new real disks can stop or revert the device, won't they just get bootlegs instead of real disks?

It may not be pirate proof, but if they can manage to create a console where you can pirate stuff but it's a fucking pain in the ass (see GameCube), they could at least lower the total number of pirated consoles.

what pain? it's a 4 wire mod, as opposed to 10+ for xbox and ~20 for PS2...

it took a really long time, which is the good point...

 

[Chittagong]

Pirate proof just like UMD

 

[Ecrofirt]

what pain? it's a 4 wire mod, as opposed to 10+ for xbox and ~20 for PS2...

it took a really long time, which is the good point...

I can't vouch for PS2, but there are plenty of solderless mods for Xbox. SUre, the first gen stuff was 10-20 wires, but not anymore.

 

[StRaNgE]

Am I the only who thinks that if the PS3 is pirate proof it won't sell nearly as much as the PS2 did?

If the xbox was pirate proof i would have never got one. due to that MS has made money off many game sales from me that i would have never bought otherwise.

i am sure there is a decent % of people out there in a similar situation.

i doubt it would make a huge difference.

if the PS3 actually stays working and the whole 1st year or so of people who buy one do not have to replace it with a second one then i would think that would effect sales #'s more then easy pirated consoles.

 

[Nerevar]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

for movies and music, until they can develop a medium where they take the data off the disc and magically put the data directly into your head, movies and music wil exist in an intermediate stage at some point in the process (decoded and sent to a TV / speaker to be played) and therefore the content will be pirated. It's foolish and naive to think otherwise.

 

[callous]

what pain? it's a 4 wire mod, as opposed to 10+ for xbox and ~20 for PS2...

Don't they also have to leave the top off or build some crazy contraption on top of it? That would constitue a pain to me. I know they had to at some point, but maybe they found a way to get the games on smaller discs? I won't even get into streaming.

 

[relentlessflame]

In addition to AACS, the BDA took a dramatic step in the battle against mass production piracy with the adoption of ROM Mark. ROM Mark, which is unique to Blu-ray Disc, is a new technology designed specifically to thwart large scale, mass production piracy, a problem that experts estimate costs the movie industry alone in excess of $3 billion per year in lost revenue. To combat this, the ROM Mark technology embeds a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games. While invisible to consumers, this ROM Mark can only be mastered with equipment available to licensed BD-ROM manufacturers, essentially preventing unauthorized copies of a disc.

Is it just me, or does this idea simply make no sense whatsoever? 'Cuz... lord knows that none of our piracy problems have anything to do with people on the inside... I don't think the people are dealing in "large scale, mass production piracy" are going to have a problem acquiring one of these "official" BD-ROM media mastering devices. All it really means is that people won't be able to burn a copy at home without cracking the program that looks for the ROM Mark. I guess that's why they invented BD+? They're trying to equate the stamping of BD-ROMs with the printing of money... but it just can't work.